Indian Military Aviation

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Dec 2011 23:23

There was this famous Air Chief who once said he did not see the need for Flanker in the IAF ( think it is ACM Mehra in early 90's )

well quite a few IAF folks did not quite know what to do with the Flanker.

The huge jump in capabilities needed very different thinking.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 09 Dec 2011 01:00

Austin wrote: Yes the Mig-29 was offered for lic manufacturing in India but was not taken up , even the M2K deal was to lic manufacture more then 100 M2K in India that was not taken up. Probably the economic crises of 90's and breakup of SU made both the offer not feasible.

That particular period was a time of turmoil..FlightGlobal had even reported that the LCA was shelved due to developmental delays and all sorts of options were being thrown around, from the F-16 to the Gripen A/B to even including the Hawk 200 and AMX !!

link to FlightGLobal article from August 1990

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Dec 2011 03:52

karan_mc wrote:coming to supersonic bomber , Navy wanted Tu-22M from Russia , what happened to that , i never heard any thing about that ever again , did Russia refused or $$ asked was too much ???

I thought it was the other way around.. Russia wanted to sell Tu-22Ms, and we did not take it, when we retired our foxbats.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Dec 2011 03:54

Shiv, Try to read Carl Builder's "Masks of War" where he examines similar outlook in US armed forces.

Book review

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Masks- ... 0801837760

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Dec 2011 05:26

shiv wrote:No not Frontline. It was a special edition. I have a copy. I think Jagan has a cover pic somewhere on BR.

would it be possible to scan and upload ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Dec 2011 07:26

Rahul M wrote:
shiv wrote:No not Frontline. It was a special edition. I have a copy. I think Jagan has a cover pic somewhere on BR.
would it be possible to scan and upload ?

I must get down to it sometime.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2011 08:10

is it the same one that has on cover 4 jaguars over tibet ripping apart a truck convoy with cluster bombs?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Dec 2011 10:21

Singha wrote:is it the same one that has on cover 4 jaguars over tibet ripping apart a truck convoy with cluster bombs?

yup

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2011 10:48

that was from way back in 1982 or 1984! I purchased it for rs50/- then when I was in grade4 or 5! had some excellent cutaway diagrams and articles.

now my kid is in grade-I

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Dec 2011 16:16

what an amazing picture that was!!

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 09 Dec 2011 16:57

^^ gurus is it this ?

image on BR

actual magazine cover

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 09 Dec 2011 17:03

^^
Wow. That is an amazing artwork. Thanks for posting it.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Dec 2011 19:42

The right a/c in the background seem Mig-29 and the one on its left seems like F-16.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 09 Dec 2011 19:51

F-16? looks like the second Jag to me.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2011 22:24

they have depicted 4 jags there, the 2nd pair following few seconds behind the lead pair...terrain looks like POK/aksai chin/tibet. the artist derek bond has a website http://derekbondart.com/

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Dec 2011 08:23

Great new picture of a fully painted MiG-29UPG Serial # KBU 3123 ! I think it looks great.

and an unpainted MiG-29UB UPG Serial # 3302

MiG-29UB UPG

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 10 Dec 2011 08:57

Ugh. Looks like a pregnant bird. Why

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Dec 2011 09:02

er where is the huge new dorsal hump gone?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 10 Dec 2011 09:09

That picture appears cropped in the page due to some sizing thing. If you open the picture in a separate tab, you'll see that its there. Just neatly painted over.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Dec 2011 11:08

Miss the sleek lines of Mig-29 , looks impregnated

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 10 Dec 2011 11:55

Singha
er where is the huge new dorsal hump gone?

the 2 seater UB variant doesnt have a dorsal hump AFAIK.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Dec 2011 11:56

It looks like my grandma

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Dec 2011 12:20

it looks like shorter su27.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Dec 2011 01:51

Oh quite whining about the hump! It looks far better in Tipnis gray than the Algerian MiG-29SMTs that Russia had to take back.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 Dec 2011 02:00

Probably added 50% more loiter time with that hump... Its all good.. Got more muscle and enough fuel to burn in a mano on mano.. Bring it on neighbors.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 11 Dec 2011 02:07

Kartik wrote:Oh quite whining about the hump! It looks far better in Tipnis gray than the Algerian MiG-29SMTs that Russia had to take back.

Kartiksaar,
Tell what you will but she sure was a eye dazzling beauty before she went for this upgrade. The only thing i can equate this is to a sexy woman going for breast implant and ending up being not quite as beautiful as before.
JMO and sorry for OT.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 11 Dec 2011 04:43

Singha wrote:they have depicted 4 jags there, the 2nd pair following few seconds behind the lead pair...terrain looks like POK/aksai chin/tibet. the artist derek bond has a website http://derekbondart.com/

yeah but the artist is Derek Bunce..

I have a vague recollection that he also did the Gnat Book cover and the Marut Book cover as well (bought out by Vayu)

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 11 Dec 2011 06:00

Hopefully now the same scene will happen with no aircraft in the vicinity an- may look lesss sexy

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Dec 2011 07:01

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Kartik wrote:Oh quite whining about the hump! It looks far better in Tipnis gray than the Algerian MiG-29SMTs that Russia had to take back.
Kartiksaar,
Tell what you will but she sure was a eye dazzling beauty before she went for this upgrade. The only thing i can equate this is to a sexy woman going for breast implant and ending up being not quite as beautiful as before.
JMO and sorry for OT.

Beauty does lie in the eye of the beholder, but IMO, this is far prettier than say for instance a F-16 Block 60 with the CFTs. It still retains curves that make it aesthetically pleasing. The original Fulcrum is without a doubt one of the most beautiful fighters ever, but this one isnt' as bad (once again IMO) as others are making it out to be.

And as CM pointed out, the capability enhancement that this UPG brings over the original makes it so worth it. The biggest drawback of the original Fulcrum, its poor fuel fraction is what is solved here, without any penalties in performance.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Dec 2011 07:06

the block60 is the jalebi madam of the fighter world in looks - a lot of thought went into making it so ugly...it cannot be done without careful planning.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Dec 2011 10:19

I did read in Yefim Gordon Mig-29 series that the Hump did not in any way impact the manouveribility of fighter or other characteristics , its aerodynamic streamlined if not greatly pleasing to eyes.

So from performance pov the hump will add more fuel something the basic Mig-29 certainly needs if its to be useful as multirole fighter and move beyond the short leg area defence fighter.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 11 Dec 2011 10:36

the next round of DACT with the 29 UPG will be interesting

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Dec 2011 10:49

Surya wrote:the next round of DACT with the 29 UPG will be interesting

Indeed it will. The MiG-29UPG will not be a fighter to mess with, not even for the Su-30MKI.

All of the known issues of the MiG-29, poor fuel fraction, poor MMI, poor situational awareness due to pilot having too much workload in the cockpit, and possibly a lack of a true BVR weapon like the R-77 (aside from Harry's claim that IAF Fulcrums were capable of firing R-77s, never seen it) are resolved with this upgrade. And it gives it a current generation radar and a truly capable BVR weapon, the R-77 aside from a range of weapons that previously Fulcrum pilots didn't ever need to train on.

ASTE will definitely be busy evaluating this fighter when it does arrive in India and the first squadron to receive it will have to develop new flight and weapons employment tactics for the UPG fleet, possibly with help from TACDE. Fulcrum pilots won't need to envy the MKI pilots anymore. They'll have a truly multi-role bird of their own.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Dec 2011 11:26

Kartik wrote:
ASTE will definitely be busy evaluating this fighter when it does arrive in India and the first squadron to receive it will have to develop new flight and weapons employment tactics for the UPG fleet, possibly with help from TACDE. Fulcrum pilots won't need to envy the MKI pilots anymore. They'll have a truly multi-role bird of their own.

Let me make another prediction. The navy will get a dazzlingly dangerous (as in badass

) bird and will drive domestic funding and research leading to the Air Force eventually falling in line as domestic industry comes of age. Or so I hope.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 11 Dec 2011 11:29

What is the hump in the belly of the upg mig-29?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Dec 2011 11:59

^ centerline fuel tank. our Mig29 support it presently.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Dec 2011 12:20

Kartik wrote:possibly a lack of a true BVR weapon like the R-77 (aside from Harry's claim that IAF Fulcrums were capable of firing R-77s, never seen it) are resolved with this upgrade.

It was actually Janes claim quoting PAF chief that IAF Mig-29 could fire BVR missile ( basic R-77 ) , ofcourse then it could not be verified but see no reason why IAF wont do that quitely.

There would be many things going in IAF that would be outside the public domain , like the integration of all aspect Python 4 with M2K done some time early in 2000 , but was not known in public for many years to come.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Dec 2011 14:39

BAE Systems announces £59 Million Indian Hawk Spares Contract

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Dec 2011 00:49

Kartik wrote:
ASTE will definitely be busy evaluating this fighter when it does arrive in India and the first squadron to receive it will have to develop new flight and weapons employment tactics for the UPG fleet, possibly with help from TACDE. Fulcrum pilots won't need to envy the MKI pilots anymore. They'll have a truly multi-role bird of their own.

In WVR, even the non-upgraded 29 would be a handful for the MKI (or any other aircraft for that matter). It will be interesting to see how its BVR capabilities match up to the Bars+R-77 combo after upgradation.

I'm more interested in how the M2k upg will match up to the 29 upg now that the playing field will be evened out a bit with the M2k getting an HMS and the 29 (probably) getting smokeless engines. The uber TWR of the 29 will reduce a bit with the added weight of the fuel though.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Dec 2011 04:30

Singha wrote:^ centerline fuel tank. our Mig29 support it presently.

anyone knows if the g-restrictions still apply to mig-29 when carrying centreline fuel tank ?