Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 2011

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 17 Dec 2011 07:26

Pakis are beginning to whine loudly now:

Forget $3.2 bn, Pakistan may get only $400m
http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDe ... 059&Cat=13

Of course, the sense of entitlement is strong as ever:

A top government functionary insisted however that the CSF amount could not be considered as assistance because this is the expense that Pakistan had already incurred in its military operations against militants based in tribal areas. The bills under question were forwarded to USA after mutual reconciliation. Therefore, the functionary argued, the CSF amount is a reconciled bill and wrongfully delayed payment by US will cause burden on the government which in turn will be forced to obtain loans from banks at exorbitant mark ups.

A senior official from the government’s economic team disclosed to The News on Friday that Pakistan’s economic hardships would be aggravated owing to a number of factors including US’s refusal to pay out Pakistan’s legitimate CSF dues of $3.2 b.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Dec 2011 07:30

Bill Keller’s Graphic Account From Pakistan

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Dec 2011 07:35

No Pak in India-Russia statement

In a surprise omission, India and Russia have quietly dropped the standard line demanding Pakistan bring the perpetrators of 26/11 to justice from their joint statement.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Dec 2011 07:41

anupmisra wrote:
ramana wrote:Hamid Gul's whine.... They mentally belong to India.
You mean...."India belongs to them". There is a whole dialog going on in paki deaf and dumb fora about how the evil yindoos cheated them out of the name "India", with "Indian Restaurants" actually offering paki food but owned by the SDREs.

Jinnah actually claimed the name India for Pakistan. He said the Indus flowed through mostly Pakistan and India was a derivative of the Indus and so Pakistan had the right for 'India'.

The idea of Jinnah was probably to deny 'India' to India, not for Pakistan to be renamed as India as that would have been unacceptable to the various stakeholders.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Dec 2011 07:54

Jim Jones: Amb. Haqqani was not involved in memogate

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Dec 2011 08:43

Border wars and brinkmanship

partha · Post by **partha** » 17 Dec 2011 09:27

Pakistani actress Veena Malik vows to return home despite death threats over FHM nude photo

In a text to journalists, Pakistan's military press office said the scandal was "the height of humiliation for Pakistan, done by a Pakistani on Indian soil."

What kind of military is this which issues official statements concerning a private citizen's life?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Dec 2011 09:35

Anujan wrote:Pakistan’s Modernity: Between the Military and Militancy – by Ayesha Siddiqa

http://epw.in/epw/uploads/articles/16890.pdf

This article, that is otherwise extremely tedious to read has the folowing info which seems relevant if one can actually understand what the woman is trying to say..

Pakistan’s foremost social scientist Hamza
Alavi believed that Barelvi and Sufi Islam, which denote “peasant’s
religion”, would become less relevant with growing urbanisation,
particularly
sophistication in modes of production. Increasing
mechanisation of agriculture (and now the gradual industrialisation)
will make Barelvisim redundant or less forceful.15
These socio-economic changes have an impact especially in
increasing the common man’s need for more potent culturalreligious-
social structures.
Deobandi and Wahabi Islam, as opposed to Sufi and Barelvi
Islam, have textual basis and offer a form of modernity. Allama
Mohammad Iqbal, the poet-philosopher of Pakistan, also recognised
this factor. He found orthodox religion as having greater
capacity to respond to the needs of establishing a modern state.
Referring to present times the increasing popularity of Deobandi
and Wahabi Islam in what used to be centres of Sufi Islam bears
witness to the society’s urge for modernity. While Sufi shrines
will continue to attract people, they will fail to fulfil the spiritual
and intellectuals needs of those marching towards some form of
material progress. The rural middle class and those of the small
towns view the piri-mureedi culture as an extension of the extortionist
feudal culture. Sufism as an institution has over the years
transformed into piri-mureedi, which represents crude institutionalisation
of Sufism with deep shades of feudalism. The pirimureedi
culture, as we find from Sarah Ansari’s work (Ansari 2003)
is not a new phenomenon. However, the transformation has
compounded with the problem of a new power alternative
emerging in the society that has some licence from the state in
the shape of militant-radical force. The Talibans and jihadists
are seen as challenging the traditional power centres known for
their feudal-tribal culture (Constable 2011: 88). A close analysis
of Punjab’s politics will show that the Sufi institution, which was
an essential part of traditional power politics, no longer holds
the power it used to. In fact, the various militant groups and
their leaders are emerging as the new power centres that will
influence electoral politics and sociopolitical development in
general (Siddiqa 2011).

The changing social and economic patterns have a bearing on
cultural-religious norms in general. The militants benefit from the
rise in Deobandism-Wahabism since it enhances the ideological
pool from which they can recruit fighters at will. But the most
noticeable development pertains to the impact of Deobandism-
Wahabism on Barelvi religious norms that face the pressure of
competing for political and ideological space.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 17 Dec 2011 09:43

ayesha khuspoo wrote:
Deobandi and Wahabi Islam, as opposed to Sufi and Barelvi
Islam, have textual basis and offer a form of modernity.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Dec 2011 10:52

Shiv, I think that what Ms. Ayesha Siddiqa is saying is that she acknowledges that Deobandi-Wahhabism is now replacing the Berelvi Sufism. She says, and correctly too, that Susfism which has descended to the level of feudalism (because the pirs acquire enormous wealth by forcing their murids to contribute) is 'oppressive' as practised in Pakistan and the 'scriptural Islam' as practised by the Wahhabi-Deobandis will 'cure' that. People are therefore attracted to that, as she claims. We don't know whether it is this facet alone that make the Faithful revolt against Sufism and join Wahhabi/Deobandis in large numbers.

But, what is extremely intriguing and inexplicable is her ridiculous claim that somehow Wahhabi-Deobandism "offer a form of modernity." ! May be, she is basing this on what she has witnessed in KSA. Modern cities, infrastructure. May be, she thinks wahhabism will bring similar modernity in Pakistan too !

Islam in Pakistan has gone through various evolutions. Each ruler attempted to impose his or her brand of Islam. While ZAB laid the strongest foundation for religious intolerance through his 'Socialistic Islam', Zia imposed the 'scriptural Islam' of Wahhabi/Deobandi/Salafism. Musharraf ensured that this group formed the Emirate in NWFP/Balochistan during his regime even as he spoke of an 'enlightened, moderate Islam'. Now, it is undoubtedly the time for Wahhabi/Deobandi/Salafi/Takfiri groups. AoA.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Dec 2011 10:59

partha wrote:Pakistani actress Veena Malik vows to return home despite death threats over FHM nude photo

In a text to journalists, Pakistan's military press office said the scandal was "the height of humiliation for Pakistan, done by a Pakistani on Indian soil."
What kind of military is this which issues official statements concerning a private citizen's life?

The PA does it because it has to constantly prove its Islamic credentials and also keep the hatred for India boiling. Remember that Ms. Malik also displayed the 'ISI' tattoo while being naked on Indian soil.

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 17 Dec 2011 11:03

Ha!

More proof here that you can take a Paki out of a Pakistani, but you can never, ever, ever, take a India or an Indian out of a Pakistani.

Proof: Here is Kolaveri, as in universal, as in everywhere, India:

And then, in response, here is the just released from a Pakistani band named "High Notes" out of Canada:

partha · Post by **partha** » 17 Dec 2011 11:26

gakakkad wrote:
ayesha khuspoo wrote:
Deobandi and Wahabi Islam, as opposed to Sufi and Barelvi
Islam, have textual basis and offer a form of modernity.

She is saying that in Pakistani context. As she has mentioned Sufi / Barelvi brands are usually associated with peasants. So to embrace Deobandi / Wahabi is to move up the social ladder or modernity.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 17 Dec 2011 11:28

partha wrote:Pakistani actress Veena Malik vows to return home despite death threats over FHM nude photo

In a text to journalists, Pakistan's military press office said the scandal was "the height of humiliation for Pakistan, done by a Pakistani on Indian soil."
What kind of military is this which issues official statements concerning a private citizen's life?

OT alert:
One TV channel is reporting since morning that Veena Malik is "missing" for last 24 hours. She is supposed to be in Mumbai as some "swayambar" reality show is due to start soon with Veena as bride (details courtesy SHQ).

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Dec 2011 11:30

jrjrao:

This will have different interpretations. Yours is the correct one, but WKKs will cite this as yet another shared "South Asian" culture. So will the western racists. In fact, it will be termed another "cold war" between India & TSP on the music scene.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » 17 Dec 2011 12:01

From Twitter

JuD chief Hafiz Saeed asks imams of all mosques in Pakistan to tell people in Friday sermons abt reasons to oppose giving India MFN-status

archan · Post by **archan** » 17 Dec 2011 12:10

Charlie wrote:From Twitter

JuD chief Hafiz Saeed asks imams of all mosques in Pakistan to tell people in Friday sermons abt reasons to oppose giving India MFN-status

Indeed, that's where their state should be run out of - the Friday sermon meetings.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » 17 Dec 2011 12:29

"The cost of questioning military authority…(is social ostracism)"- Ayesha Siddiqa

Nitin Pai interviews Ayesha Siddiqa.

[youtube]IsZD546ouoY&feature=youtu.be&t=3m55s[/youtube]

Also

Nitin Pai interviews ToIs Chidanand Rajghatta PART-1|PART-2

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 17 Dec 2011 12:35

jrjrao wrote: And then, in response, here is the just released from a Pakistani band named "High Notes" out of Canada:

Not quite Paki ... the director is some Surinder Birdi ... imho it is a pretty good attempt ... nice fusion with Bangra at the end.

Rajdeep · Post by **Rajdeep** » 17 Dec 2011 13:13

Pakistani Children Describe Abuse At Madrasah

http://www.rferl.org/content/children_d ... 22014.html

What language is that ?
Does that say something about the demographic of the telebunnies ?
And how the pakjabis exploit people from other states of the poaki federation.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Dec 2011 13:44

Was there an Indian plot to breakup Pakistan in 1971 ? - C. Dasgupta in The Hindu

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 17 Dec 2011 15:11

So the break-up of feudalism in Pakistan will be through Deobandi-Salafi ideology?

Modernity = textual, literate instead of oral, traditional; more individualistic instead of group-based, urban instead of rural?

I wonder, if India hand not defeudalized during the period when socialism was intellectually respectable, what mechanism would have arisen?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Dec 2011 15:30

Hss this been posted on this thread?

Enough is enough: It’s time for the US to ‘go around’ Pakistan

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 17 Dec 2011 15:58

Pratyush wrote:Hss this been posted on this thread?

Enough is enough: It’s time for the US to ‘go around’ Pakistan

Following the above link, Interestingly I came upon following article by some seema sirohi.

http://www.firstpost.com/blogs/pakistan ... 47823.html

What I find interesting is that the article seems to be a blatant Copy Pasting of few pages of BR's TIRP dhaaga and clubbing together to make it into an article. The TSP gyan seems to be entirely borrowed from here.

Going through it, many times I am reminded that this has been analysed by gurus in the TSP thread already.

Not surprisingly, the article begins with :

No, this is not schadenfreude. Most definitely not.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Dec 2011 16:27

A_Gupta wrote:So the break-up of feudalism in Pakistan will be through Deobandi-Salafi ideology?

Arun, I do not think so. Islam allows feudalism, if my understanding of that religion is correct. I think Ayesha is limiting herself to the Pirs who are oppressing their disciples. Now, 'Pir' is a concept anathema to the 'literal Islamists' like the wahhabi, Deobandi, Salafists, who by definition form the 'high church'. The zamindars or ashrafs or vaderas or maliks or khans are traditional landlords and have been so for generations. They probably got their huge land holdings as a legacy from their ancestors or from the British and have been holding their massive land banks for at least a century now. Not so the feudal Pirs. While the Pirs have been there too for centuries, the feudal role that they have assumed in Pakistan is newer. The 'feudal 'Pirs are newer creations and have become oppressively materialistic. A good example of one such Pir is our very own Makhdoom Shah Mehmood Quereshi. The book, "Empires of the Indus" by Alice Albinia gives a good insight into the activities of the Pirs. This practice is what Ayesha Siddiqa says will be terminated by the 'high church'.

The CII (Council of Islamic Ideology) which is usually dominated by the 'high church' of Pakistan has opined that land reforms are unIslamic and the Federal Shariat Court, IIRC, has given a similar ruling as well. I do not believe therefore that the Wahhabi/Deobandi/Salafi/Takfiri jihadi Islamists will ever confiscate land re-distribute it.

I think what Ms. Siddiqa is saying is that by abolishing the Pir-Murid system (where the Murids are a kind of bonded labour to the Pir), the 'low church' Murids will turn into 'high church' frothing-at-the-mouth-corner jihadists of the wahhabi/Deobandi/Ahl-e-Hadith variety.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Dec 2011 17:07

From Ms. Farhat Taj's op-ed in DT, "Human Rights in FATA"

Violation of human rights multiplied following the US-led war on terror during which a managed chaos has been created to hide the terror sanctuaries of the Pakistani state proxies, the Taliban. Pakistan’s double dealing in the war on terror, ostensibly fighting the Taliban but tacitly entrenching them in FATA, has led to death, damage and human displacement on a large scale. Both the Taliban and the Pakistan Army have violated the tribal people’s right to life by killing and injuring thousands of people. Both the Taliban and the Pakistan Army have bombed schools, colleges, health centres and drinking water supply systems in the area.

A very important point on how the so-called liberals are in fact 'illiberals' when it comes to India

Another issue with adverse human rights implications in FATA is that many Pakistani liberals have a discriminatory approach towards human rights. They stand up for women and minority rights in Pakistan but at the same time support the military establishment’s policy of strategic depth in Afghanistan, the key cause of gross human rights violations in FATA as well as Afghanistan. They do not treat the human rights violations of the Pakhtuns on both sides of the Durand Line at par with the human rights violation of women and minorities in mainstream Pakistan. The latter is seen as a priority and the former can wait indefinitely in pursuit of strategic depth. A good example of this Pakistani liberal mindset can be seen in a report prepared jointly by a Pakistani and an American think tank. In complete disregard of the ground realities as well as human rights of the terrorism-hit Pakhtun, the report conflates the entire Pakhtun nation with the Taliban and asks for the accommodation of Afghan militants, hosted, nurtured, trained and armed by Pakistan as its proxies, in the future government setup of Afghanistan. This is the strategic depth policy of the military establishment of Pakistan. Several of the leading Pakistani liberals prominent in the media and civil society contributed in making this anti-Pakhtun and pro-military establishment report.

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 17 Dec 2011 17:35

Pranav wrote:
Not quite Paki ... the director is some Surinder Birdi ... imho it is a pretty good attempt ... nice fusion with Bangra at the end.

Yes, I saw that. FWIW, however, the lead singer is a Pak-origin teenager named Saud Peerzada, whose daddy is a commercial pilot in Canada, and whose Pakistani uncle was on the local Paki radio show last evening, playing and promoting this Pak kolaveri as I was driving home from work last evening. Apparently, this band is planning a US tour in the spring...

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Dec 2011 17:43

A very important point on how the so-called liberals are in fact 'illiberals' when it comes to India

Hate to do this ==. but actually the same problem exists with Indian 'liberals' too. They have one standard for India and another one for across the border.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 17 Dec 2011 20:16

SSridhar

Re Ayesha Siddiqa's theory, I believe what she means is that in TSP, radical Wahhabi/Deobandi mindset is largely promoted by the well off urban middle class types, who also enjoy some of the fruits of economic modernization. In contrast, the so called moderate Sufism is largely a rural/fedual preserve. In other words, the same people who look modern on the surface, with new cars, families in the West, engineering, law, medicine type education etc. are the same ones who propagate jihadi views the most. There's even a term for this - "burger jihadis". BTW, virtually all of LeT/JeM commander types belong to this class. This is why the urban bourgeouisie were throwing rose petals at Mumtaz Qadri.

Also, I've seen Siddiqa argue the above in part to discredit the Anatol Lieven type Western "experts" who try to fool others by confusing outward symbols of 'modernity' like jeans and cars with liberalism.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 17 Dec 2011 20:27

SSridhar wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:So the break-up of feudalism in Pakistan will be through Deobandi-Salafi ideology?
Arun, I do not think so. Islam allows feudalism, if my understanding of that religion is correct. I think Ayesha is limiting herself to the Pirs who are oppressing their disciples. Now, 'Pir' is a concept anathema to the 'literal Islamists' like the wahhabi, Deobandi, Salafists, who by definition form the 'high church'. The zamindars or ashrafs or vaderas or maliks or khans are traditional landlords and have been so for generations. They probably got their huge land holdings as a legacy from their ancestors or from the British and have been holding their massive land banks for at least a century now. Not so the feudal Pirs. While the Pirs have been there too for centuries, the feudal role that they have assumed in Pakistan is newer. The 'feudal 'Pirs are newer creations and have become oppressively materialistic. A good example of one such Pir is our very own Makhdoom Shah Mehmood Quereshi. The book, "Empires of the Indus" by Alice Albinia gives a good insight into the activities of the Pirs. This practice is what Ayesha Siddiqa says will be terminated by the 'high church'.

The CII (Council of Islamic Ideology) which is usually dominated by the 'high church' of Pakistan has opined that land reforms are unIslamic and the Federal Shariat Court, IIRC, has given a similar ruling as well. I do not believe therefore that the Wahhabi/Deobandi/Salafi/Takfiri jihadi Islamists will ever confiscate land re-distribute it.

I think what Ms. Siddiqa is saying is that by abolishing the Pir-Murid system (where the Murids are a kind of bonded labour to the Pir), the 'low church' Murids will turn into 'high church' frothing-at-the-mouth-corner jihadists of the wahhabi/Deobandi/Ahl-e-Hadith variety.

sridhar, if you remember during the days of swat invasion, there were reports of there being an robinhood element to the ttp and how they were redistributing land. what do you make of that?

of course during those days yo had also pointed out how the pirs were land holders themselves.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Dec 2011 20:46

Rangudu wrote:SSridhar

Re Ayesha Siddiqa's theory, I believe what she means is that in TSP, radical Wahhabi/Deobandi mindset is largely promoted by the well off urban middle class types, who also enjoy some of the fruits of economic modernization. In contrast, the so called moderate Sufism is largely a rural/fedual preserve. In other words, the same people who look modern on the surface, with new cars, families in the West, engineering, law, medicine type education etc. are the same ones who propagate jihadi views the most. There's even a term for this - "burger jihadis". BTW, virtually all of LeT/JeM commander types belong to this class. This is why the urban bourgeouisie were throwing rose petals at Mumtaz Qadri.

But why are they doing that? What's in it for Sidiqa's "middle class" to become Wahhabandi? Could it be that one has to leave behind Barelvi/Sufism to break out of the feudal mold and in Islam all you can do is a "lateral shift" into some other form of Islam.

Islam is the cage. To escape feudalism within the Islam cage, one needs to find another cage in Islam. Is that the verdict then?

Suppose they were not Muslims? Would that help them break out of feudalism? It strikes me that what we are seeing here is a failure of government and a movement of society from one type of Islam to another to simply escape the ill effects that have collected up in one type of islam. Society does not give a shit that Wahhabism is plain bigotry and murder. In Pakistan, for Wahhabandis that is not a problem. It is a problem only outside Pakistan.

But Islam is at the core of the problem. Nobody wants to say it. Not Sidiqa. Not Americans. Not Indians. Pakistan is moving towards religious war with others. This is so clear that its is ludicrous. It would help if we were able to call a spade a spade.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Dec 2011 21:43

Pratyush wrote:Hss this been posted on this thread?

Enough is enough: It’s time for the US to ‘go around’ Pakistan

Not a bad thesis, but somehow, but after establishing what is known to anybody who wants to know, namely, that TSP is a terrorist abomination, even Lisa CurtisJi can't seem to let go off her colonial blinkers and comes up with zero sum strategy with India:

the US must be prepared to pursue a strategy in which it works more closely with Afghanistan’s other neighbours.

I mean this whole notion of keeping India oot to appease a terrorist abomination should have fought tooth and nail right from the beginning.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Dec 2011 22:01

harbans wrote:
A very important point on how the so-called liberals are in fact 'illiberals' when it comes to India
Hate to do this ==. but actually the same problem exists with Indian 'liberals' too. They have one standard for India and another one for across the border.

Harbans, if you had to do this dump couldn't you have done it in another thread?

Thanks for the self goal!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Dec 2011 22:08

A_Gupta, To put it in Western context, the pirs are like the abbots who became parallel feudal lords to the barons.
So Ayesha is saying that making the pakis drop the pir-murid system is a step in modernity just as the abbots lost their lands and were confined to temporal role only.

partha, Islam is an urban religion. It needs a central mosque and its appurtnences to flourish.

Ayesha is saying there are three streams driving the Wahabandization of Islam: modern economy leading to shift from rural to urban, stagnation of pir-murid system, rise of Wahabi/Deobandi system with military support.

In other words she is saying Pakibarian is getting greener by the day. The limit value is reArabised Islam.

Sufi is really Turkish derivative.

A post of mine:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1209021

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Dec 2011 22:08

Ramana Ji, you didn't get it. I wanted to say their liberals are Anti-India, Pro Pak....same with our 'liberals' like Ms Roy they too are Anti India and Pro Pak. That was the == i hated doing. There was no self goal here.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Dec 2011 22:12

If I didn't get it, it must be verry obsure and arcane. Next time try to write clearly.

Thanks, ramana

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Dec 2011 22:27

Thanks will try and write more clearly, but frankly IMHO there wasn't anything obscure or arcane about it. That similarity between the Roys on this side liberal elite on the other is well known here.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 17 Dec 2011 22:46

Supanallah, wat eej this?

Afghanistan must learn from India

Look like Manmohan finally got his reward, pat from the Pakis.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 17 Dec 2011 22:55

^^oh sure, they want Afg to learn from India, India to learn from Uncle, Uncle to learn from Chinese, and Chinese to learn from themselves, and so goes on the cycle.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 17 Dec 2011 23:25

Ayesha Siddiqa calling wahabi trend a sign of modernism betrays a primitive's understanding of what meaningful modernism is. From a values pov, wahabism is a step backwards from sufism. To the primitive savage, though, writing is a miracle technology which is a value in and of itself. Hence the crazed veneration of the written quran, which is exactly idolatry: confusing implementation with concept. Noting this attitude helps to understand why our elders decry putting unfit, primitive minds in charge of society.

We are very different: written word for us nothing more than a tool. Emphasis is on oral language and retention, and concept reconstruction through trained contemplation. Observe how the writing of mahabharata is only a minor afterthought to its actual composition.