Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 2011

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 20 Dec 2011 01:57

The west only needs to crack down on the hawala and other assorted money laundering enterprises run by the Poaks for the Poakroach to roll on its back and open its back receptacle.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Dec 2011 02:08

KLNMurthy wrote:Reading about TSP viewing themselves as a separate electorate of India got me thinking. What India needs to do is to view TSP, nukes and all, as a province of China ending the current scenario of twins separated under Gandhi statue. It means making it explicit to the Chinese that any attack by TSP, terrorist, conventional, WMD or economic, anything hostile at all, will henceforth be dealt with as coming from China as a whole. End diplomatic ties with TSP and merge the paki desk in south block with the china desk. BRF should end the TSP thread and shift the discussion to the China Threat thread.

It would be an version of the sahendru takshaka paradigm indicated by RamaY.

This paradigm can also the basis for (if we want) a shared strategy with the US which is also looking for a way out of the TSP trap. With a stroke of the pen, TSP ceases to exist from a policy perspective, to be replaced by an expanded "greater China" which will have more geostrategic space but also more responsibility and risk. For the world as a whole, the number of bad actors decreases by 1.

For India / US this shift is predicated on the premise that China is a comparatively more responsible world citizen with more at stake.

Rajamohan has it right that the 1971 war changed the balance of power in Indian sub-continent and the one who realised it first was PRC.

PRC worked to prop up the TSp nuke drive and when it failed, supplied the weapons themselves. And this was done regadless of US of hat the US wanted or not.

Dhaka Calling

....

Bangladesh’s war of liberation produced three distinct strategic outcomes for the region. One was a change in the regional balance of power in India’s favour. The second was an ideological blow against the two-nation theory that saw the bloody Partition of the subcontinent in 1947. The third, the vivisection of Pakistan, reconfigured India’s eastern flank.

...
Central to Pakistan’s revisionism was the acquisition of a nuclear deterrent. The first decision by Bhutto after the 1971 war was to launch a clandestine nuclear weapon programme. From Islamabad’s perspective, the nuclear move was indeed logical, but India failed to assess it properly despite Bhutto’s talk in the 1960s about making the bomb even if Pakistan had to “eat grass”.

China, which clearly understood the strategic implications of the 1971 war, rendered massive assistance to Pakistan’s nuclear and missile programmes in a bid to reverse what it called “India’s hegemony” in the subcontinent.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 20 Dec 2011 02:12

Firstly, why do people talk about denuking pak? My observation...

Generally, 'experts'(national & international) shout from the rooftops that Pak needs to be saved regardless of the dangers posed by it to the world. These experts admit that Pak has always been shady character and is not expected to reform. Yet, their solution is to try and save Pak. According to them, there is no other option. Saving Pak implies saving Pak in its present avataar with minor changes.

Now, the obvious doubt raised by the people would be,"why should Pak be saved? Why not dismantle the state into manageable states? Werent such things done previously?"

The answer given by 'experts' is,"Nukes, you silly! Those nukes will fall into dirty hands of terrorists if Pak breaks up. The terrorists will then immediately proceed to the nearest city and blast them. Blood and gore... So, Pak must be saved."

The second argument of 'potential future refugees' works only with India. Even among Indians, not many are worried about potential refugees. It is, at best, a moral dilemma. But, nukes is a whole different ball-game. It is a very unnerving. Maybe its piskological impact is far more than its physical impact...

So, the nukes are portrayed as the last pin holding the Paki's sovirginity.

Then, the next obvious point raised by people is,"if nukes are the only hurdle, then why not denuke pak?"

This is the reason why frequently people talk about denuking pak. There is hope that denuking pak would be the final nail in Paki coffin.

Now, the next questions are,"Is it possible to denuke Pak? Who will do it? What will be the challenges?"

My gut feeling is that US can denuke Pak with the help of India & China. I cant explain it, its just my gut feeling. The denuking may not be 100%, but can be largely successful. Also, I dont think the islamists are as foolish as they are portrayed. So, even if they get hold of a nuke(or dirty bomb), they wont just lob it. They can be sure that if they do lob it, then their game is up. Retribution is sure. Nukes change the equation completely.

So, would US denuke Pak? I think Pak is pushing its allies into a corner, where they might not have any other option.

Alternatively, Pak may by simple cut down to size without any need for denuking. Pak may also accept the deal as long as the pakis believe that they can escape with some resources to fight another day.

From a chini perspective, Pak nuking India and getting nuked is a wet dream. Both get wasted and China remains the last tiger on the mountain. But ulighar situation complicates the matter...

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 20 Dec 2011 02:22

My two NPs worth of stuff:

1. TSP nuke India => India nuke PRC and a lot more. That has been discussed and unless there is a complete dhoti-shiver surrender PRC will not go scott-free. TSP is the next province of PRC and they have PLA boots on the ground to prove it.

2. Islamists are NOT stupid, especially TSPIAN sarkari Islamists. They have successfully managed a large population so give them credit.

3. The day the Islamists use the nuke, their days under the sun are over. Their value is as a nuisance. Once the genie is out, then the Islamists know that it is their kayamat time; the Islamists leader are having such a great time with the Sandwiches on this planet that they have absolutely no need to end it.

4. There is the chance of rogue faith-fools taking matters in their own hands. However, if the Amriki PALs with Chinese firmware story is true, there are checks and balances to prevent a lone-ghazi from destroying the Islamists.

The TSP nuke has a value as long as it is not used. Once it is used the game is over.

The Western Wet Dream of course is to get India and China to nuke it out. Perhaps TSP nuking India to get India to nuke the PRC is their way of achieving it. I hope better sense prevails in Beijing.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 20 Dec 2011 02:27

I think something needs to give...Pak just cannot continue in its present avataar. Either it gets cut down to size(so, that it survives for another decade or two). Or it goes down the drain(and tries to take India down with it to China's delight).

member_20283 · Post by **member_20283** » 20 Dec 2011 02:43

CRamS wrote:
Altair wrote: India must push for DeNuking Pakistan for any "economic package" as a pre-condition. If they prefer eating grass, I can supply at a discounted price.
And you think US-led west & China will sit by idly and watch their pet boy TSP being de-nuked while us Hindu SDREs get to keep our crown jewels? Which planet are you living in? The only way TSP will be de-nuked is if US-led west have complete, total, unadulterated control over India's nuke capabilities, and that includes technical capability, on what scientists work on etc. They (US-led west) are moving in that direction with the current dispensation in power in Delhi, but until they are firmly in the driver's seat, when they are assured that SDREs are irreversibly castrated and rendered like other "good boys/gals" (East Asians), TSP albatross will hang over India. Once they achieve their nuke-nude objectives with India, TSP is just one mouse click away from DC to also be rendered nuke nude. Recall, TSP nukes are remote controlled in DC with firmware supplied by Beijing; in containing us SDREs, US & China & India's own 5th columnists are allies of allies.

This is my first post here, I like lurking

. I laughed so hard when i read this post. Thank you for the entertainment. Sometimes, Silence is golden.

James Blonde · Post by **James Blonde** » 20 Dec 2011 03:23

It is in the best interest of India that
US continue to finance TSP
1 terror
2 nuclear weapons program
3 help build ICBMs
4 help proliferation to Iran N Korea and venuzuvela
5 help export terror cells to India
6 help export terror to PRC and central Asian republics especially to
dagistan and chechnia
BUT India should never allow pakis to be economically viable in the present boundares
that is all I ask

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Dec 2011 03:49

Zardari snubs Kayani's call, ready to fight till the last bullet
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 111219.htm

It is generally believed that all actions by the incumbent ISI chief are taken with the prior approval of the Army chief. The allegation led many parliamentarians to seek the ISI chief's resignation for his involvement in an anti-government plot, as had been the case with Haqqani who had to quit over allegations of involvement in an anti-military plot.In fact, the ISI chief had offered his resignation on May 13 while appearing before a joint session of the Parliament along with General Kayani to explain their collective failure and deficiencies that came to light in the wake of the May 2 raid in Abbottabad, which killed Osama bin Laden. But President Zardari, who at that time was under tremendous pressure from the Sharif-led Pakistan Muslim League to remove the ISI chief and the Army chief, decided to give another chance to the current khaki leaders, who are now trying to dislodge their benefactor.Analysts say that the Pakistani military and intelligence leadership was trying to restore its wounded pride ever since the Abbottabad raid and the Haqqani episode came as a golden opportunity to re-establish its diminishing authority over the civilians who had dared to make them answerable before Parliament.There are unofficial reports that Nawaz Sharif and Lt Gen Shuja Pasha had a one-on-one meeting in Istanbul in the last week of October wherein it was decided that the establishment and the opposition would work together to get rid of the corrupt Zardari government before the upcoming elections of the Senate in March 2012 (in which the PPP is set to win majority in the upper house of Parliament.

The beleaguered Pakistani President, who keeps automatic weapons on his bed side at his presidential suite now-a-days, told rediff.com on phone from Dubai on December 18 before travelling back to Pakistan after spending two weeks that he is not a coward but a fighter and escape will never be an option for him.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 20 Dec 2011 05:19

JE Menon wrote: But let us assume that the US does have the power. Why should India bargain with the US about this? Is it not in American interest to skewer Pakistan with Amritraj? Why should we negotiate away something for them take an action which is in their own interest. If it is not in their interest, then no amount of bargaining on our side will get the US to shift its position - or the price will be unpayable. There is no value in bargaining with the US on Pakistan. They can do what is in their interest, or not. It's their call in their relationship with Pakistan. We can, must and will deal with the Paks in our own way.

Wonderfully put! I would like to put focus on the bolded part and tweak it slightly to make a tangential point.

If we accept "US or West will do what is in their interest and have little to no direct incentive to help India's cause", we have to grab initiative in offering solutions for the US's cause.

What we need are
- Several articles by Indians, making a case for why solutions discussed (in BRF for example) are in the US interest. I say Indians because, we have dealt with perfidity for a long time and have gaining clarity on the ideology that drives the Pakistani views and it serves our interests.
- Not all of the solutions have to be compatible or completely ironed out.. the objective is to put those multiple solutions out there that serve India's purpose AND will also serve US interests.
- Key thing though is to completely avoid mentioning India as victim or highlight what is in it for India (KapilK is doing a wonderful job, but more needs to be done on solutions part)

What is a waste of our time in the context of US-Pakistan or West-Pakistan relationships is.
- Whining/complaining about India being a victim of Pakistani machinations (doesn't apply domestically!)
- Trying to explain to US what Pakistan stands for (there are enough folks calling spade a spade now : CFair/Reidel, but there is scarcity of folks offering viable solutions for US).

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 20 Dec 2011 05:20

NLI is a Paki army funded firm, that steals..... the magnitude of perfidy that PA can get into is unfathomable....
.

On Thursday, Minister of State for Production Khwaja Sheeraz informed the Senate that after conducting an internal inquiry, the Federal Board of Revenue found that nearly 29,000 containers carrying Nato and Afghan Transit Trade goods had gone missing inside the country. This was the first time the issue has been raised in parliament. Its gravity can be gauged by the estimate given by federal tax ombudsman Dr Shoaib Suddle, appointed to look into the matter. He has said that the containers that are missing have caused a loss of Rs1tr to the national exchequer.

If there is corruption within the NLC, particularly on so large a scale, it is time to thoroughly investigate the functioning of the organisation. The issue of goods going missing in Pakistan is not just about the losses incurred, but also piercing the fog of secrecy that surrounds many of the military`s subsidiary interests.

gen hamid guls daughter is in charge of NLI.

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 20 Dec 2011 05:36

This is my first post here, I like lurking . I laughed so hard when i read this post.

In the interests of a healthy debate you cannot just write one liners and get back to lurking. You should tell us what you found laughable and why? That may create opportunities for an informed debate.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Dec 2011 05:50

Awaz de ,kanha hai, Qadri chuppa kahan hai , Chalne ko abb talak Coup ka carvan hai
Commanders moot deferred COAS hosts dinner for forces chiefs

ISLAMABAD: Canceling Corps Commanders’ meeting scheduled for Monday, army chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani invited heads of forces including ISI besides some other key associates for a detailed dinner meeting at his residence.“It is a dinner and a very few guests are participating in it,” well-placed sources informed Online. According to the sources, Naval Chief Admiral Asif Sandeela, Air Chief Rao Qamar Suleman, Director General Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) Ahmed Shuja Pasha and a few other high-ranking officers were among the selected guests.The sources said that the guests were asked to visit the Army House in Rawalpindi without ostensible protocol and also in private vehicles. They (the guests) were asked to arrive preferably in self-driven vehicles, the sources addedThe sources were of the view that the army chief wanted to take other services’ chiefs into confidence over the issue of memogate and situations emerging in this regard. “He, probably, shared with the participants conversations he had with President Asif Ali Zardari and Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gailani,” the sources added.
However, the meeting being informal, quite, and relatively longer in duration perturbed the political quarters both in Islamabad and Karachi.
This rare sort of meeting followed an unusual clarification by the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) about army chief’s phone call to the President Asif Ali Zardari when the latter was in Dubai that “it was only for a minute.” The sources observed that the army felt need for clarification because a lot of impressions were being construed out of its chief’s brief talk to the President on phone. “For instance,” the sources mentioned, “it was wrongly reported in a section of press that the chief had guaranteed stability and protection to President Zardari.”Earlier, a relevant official, requesting not to be named, confirmed to Online that Corps Commanders’ routine meeting was scheduled for Monday December 19. “But it was cancelled due to reasons better known to the competent authority,” he said and added, “The commanders’ meeting would be convened soon as per the new schedule.”

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Dec 2011 05:56

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-news ... us-designs
Dangerous designs

The daily Nawa-i-Waqt yesterday in a report revealed that President Barack Obama and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh are going to sign an agreement in Washington next month to make India part of Nato in Afghanistan to play its part in the war against militancy. The report adds that the agreement is currently being given its final touches. Apart from that, India’s position as trainer of the Afghan armed forces’ personnel would have the official seal of Washington. Besides, the two countries, joined by Israel, would be conducting military exercises in Rajasthan, which would start on December 30. These developments will cause fresh alarm, given Pakistan's historic suspicion of its neighbour to its East and that neighbours plans to place it in a pincer by establishing a dominant role in Afghanistan. While Pakistan's involvement in the War on Terror in the US coalition continues, fresh fears will be raised of Afghanistan being modelled into a hostile neighbour under Indian influence, given this development. The Indians are hardly likely to encourage Afghans to feel friendly towards us. Advocates of this approach would have us believe, as Musharraf tried, that we should establish diplomatic relations with Tel Aviv, in the false hope that that would lessen its hostility towards us.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Dec 2011 06:46

Folks this is not an attempt to "let off" Shitistan for punching above its stink level, but it shows how India has had, over the decades, faced a large number of takleef ridden sister-furging nations making trouble. To Pakhanis eternal joy, Pakhanaland is not the only country that has been trying to lift India's skirt and shove a finger in.

Does the following remind you of any country we know about?

Two posts about from elsewhere on the forum
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=17016

"This campaign had the full support of the Portuguese government with the ministries of defense, foreign affairs, army, navy and finance involved. After 1961, India was wholly absorbed by the grave difficulties resulting from the conflict with China and the Portuguese felt it was the right time to attack and that if they delayed they would never have a better chance," Rodrigues said.

A grand plan was chalked out called the 'Plano Gralha' covering Goa, Daman and Diu, with which the Portuguese colonizers wanted to assure Goans after liberation that they have not been abandoned by their former rulers.

"It was decided to paralyze the port operations at Mormugao and Bombay by planting bombs in some of the ships anchored at the ports. But there were also instructions to extend attacks to other parts of India whenever possible and major projects like the Bakra Nangal dam was one of the targets. It was decided to use Kuwait as a link to bring the explosives into Goa," Rodrigues said.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/how-goa-beca ... 318-3.html

On December 18, under covering fire from INS Trishul and INS Mysore, Indian troops landed on the island of Anjidiv and engaged the Portuguese defenders. The Portuguese ceased fire and raised a white flag, thus luring the Indian soldiers out of their cover before opening fire again, killing seven and wounding 19.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Dec 2011 07:11

Altair wrote: CRamS
This is exactly the defeatist attitude shiv was referring in previous post.CRS, You are an epitome of Eternal Indian Defeatist.
If US was all that militarily powerful they could have grabbed that The RQ-170 Sentinel right out of Iran and shown a finger to Iran. US is not as powerful as you think. It is people like You who prescribe superpowerdom to US more than even the most patriotic American ever does. It is exactly this attitude present in South Block too.
I am NOT saying Pakis are going to nuke nude tomorrow. I am saying that we must push for De Nuking Pakistan as a pre condition for any economic arrangement with Pakistan or even US.
We Indians must do hard bargain with everyone.Please realize that India is in much better position to bargain than any other country with respect to Geo politics. If US wants FDI in retail to open up then lets ask'em to please take the first step in de nuking Pakistan...It is India which is not realizing this fact and it pains me a lot to see even knowledgeable Indians still lumbering in US super power dom and doing sahasra namarchanas and ashtotharams to US.
Altair

I am not saying US has super natural powers, but US certainly is a super power and can affect outcomes in virtually any country through its military/economic/political/diplomatic/cultural strengths. If you need hard #s, the best reference I can think of is Samuel Huntington's clash of civilizations, the first or second chapter where he lays out US dominance and control of world affairs. There is nothing patriotic or Uncle Tommish (I am far from that) in acknowledging a reality.

Now that does not mean that US waves a magic wand and things happen. Even US cannot continue to pick a fight every day and hope to sustain itself. Thats why there is diplomacy and other modes of state craft to achieve its objectives. Talking of Iran, I mean come on, Iran has been boxed so much into a corner that it is virtually impotent. A little drone downed here or there doesn't mean much except for some H&D loss to US.

Coming to TSP, other have mentioned, but US has the power to cripple TSP through economic sanctions. This coupled with shock & awe carpet bombing of slumbad, lawhore etc will bring TSP to its knees in no time. Plus, you & I know how ruthless US is in protecting its interests, and so any hard-core hanky panky from TSP, US won't hesitate to use nukes to annihilate TSP.

But all this is theory. The reality is that TSP serves a valuable purpose which I need not repeat, and unless TSP does something really stupid, US is giving TSP a long rope to survive and not be subjected to its wrath.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Dec 2011 07:22

Besides, the two countries, joined by Israel, would be conducting military exercises in Rajasthan, which would start on December 30.

AoA!

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 20 Dec 2011 07:24

shiv wrote: If I was Paki army, how would I use LeT?

But I can't take LeT down either. So how can I use them

1. I allow them to hold rallies
2. I make sure that the world thinks that Pakistan is becoming "radicalized"
3. Next election I fill the ballot boxes with votes for someone I want and make sure LeT gets exactly 0.006 percent of votes.

Shiv-ji

It is not so simple. Already in swathes of Punjab, "legitimate" political parties cannot win without SSP's support. SSP cadres provide the muscle (to disappear opponents) and the votes and are pretty much needed to win anything. I predict that LeT and JeM will also become like that (somewhat like Hezbollah). It might very well become a case of the tail wagging the dog.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2011 07:30

menon s wrote:NLI is a Paki army funded firm, that steals..... the magnitude of perfidy that PA can get into is unfathomable....
gen hamid guls daughter is in charge of NLI.

NLC (National Logistics Cell) is a part of the PA and is headed by an army officer. Hamid Gul's daughter runs (or ran) a transportation company.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Dec 2011 07:30

KLNMurthy wrote:What India needs to do is to view TSP, nukes and all, as a province of China ending the current scenario of twins separated under Gandhi statue.

You need to give the Chinese the option of cutting off TSP without losing too much face. Even if it is a remote possibility, better to keep it open. So preserve the distinction, at least for public purposes.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 20 Dec 2011 07:43

SC moved for removal of ISI chief

The petition was filed by Communist Party of Pakistan Chairman Engineer Jameel Ahmad Malik under Article 184 (3) of the constitution, making the federation through defence secretary, ISI chief Lt Gen Ahmad Shuja Pasha, Omar Warraich, a correspondent of The Independent and Times, Islamabad Press Club and private channel anchor Hamid Mir as respondents.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2011 07:44

shiv wrote:Folks this is not an attempt to "let off" Shitistan for punching above its stink level, but it shows how India has had, over the decades, faced a large number of takleef ridden sister-furging nations making trouble. To Pakhanis eternal joy, Pakhanaland is not the only country that has been trying to lift India's skirt and shove a finger in.

The US Administration was strongly opposed to the liberation of Goa from colonial Portugal. It was termed as ‘an act of aggression’ by the US which was a NATO ally of Portugal. The US also sponsored a UNSC Resolution for withdrawal of India troops which was vetoed by the USSR, and the resolution was supported by Pakistan. Even while denouncing colonial powers, perfidious Pakistan supported Portugal and helped it overcome the Indian economic blockade.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2011 07:59

Jhujar wrote:Awaz de ,kanha hai, Qadri chuppa kahan hai , Chalne ko abb talak Coup ka carvan hai
Commanders moot deferred COAS hosts dinner for forces chiefs

This rare sort of meeting followed an unusual clarification by the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) about army chief’s phone call to the President Asif Ali Zardari when the latter was in Dubai that “it was only for a minute.” The sources observed that the army felt need for clarification because a lot of impressions were being construed out of its chief’s brief talk to the President on phone. “For instance,” the sources mentioned, “it was wrongly reported in a section of press that the chief had guaranteed stability and protection to President Zardari.”

I don't know how much to believe this report. But, if true, then Zardari decided to return only after the call from Kayani. And, the call certainly did not promise him 'protection' which in any case Kayani is not in a position to promise 100%.

Pattom · Post by **Pattom** » 20 Dec 2011 08:14

Shiv saar. If I may please have an email address at which to write you ... Alternatively, please write to shortput1 at gmail dot com. Thanks.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 20 Dec 2011 08:38

Baluchistan can no longer run with Pakistan

Sardar Attaullah Mengal claimed that Balochistan could no longer run with Pakistan since unrest and a sense of deprivation were prevailing among the students. He said: “If Nawaz Sharif had the power to check the army, he would not have been thrown to Saudi Arabia.”

Mengal claimed the present situation in Balochistan had reached a point of no return and things were not in his hands now. “Now the youth have taken to the hills and they control things in Balochistan.” He said the Baloch youth did not want to have any connection with a country where they were left with the mutilated bodies of their dear ones. Mengal said he had reached such a stage where he had no further desire to live or contract marriages. Mengal said murders were also committed in Karachi and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa daily, but the army did not react to those killings as it did in Balochistan.

“Punjabis are murdered in Balochistan. Teachers, doctors and barbers are being killed for being Punjabis. One has the right to ask why such a situation developed in Balochistan.”

Mengal said the army did not regard him a Pakistani. “I have no objection to this, but unfortunately the custodians of Pakistan are our killers,” he added.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 20 Dec 2011 08:48

JE Menon wrote:>>But US has the power to enforce crippling economic sanctions on a country across a broad spectrum.

Actually, the US does not even have the power to do that. For instance, note Iran. I think sanctions against Pakistan will be more successful than in the case of Iran, but not of much significance; China will acquiesce only in form, and we can pretty much expect the same from the Gulf kingdoms.

JE Menon ji

Pakistan current economic situation is such that it will default on its IMF and World Bank loans in early 2012. It will ask for debt-rescheduling. It is here that US and China can bail out Pakistan. I want to see no mercy or aid packages here to Pakistan from US. It is definitely in US interest to get Pakistan behaving to Unkils liking.
Lately, Some US think tankers seem to push an idea of India bailing out Pakistan and India taking a more direct approach in Afghanistan. All these things benefit US more than India in its current form and structure. I would like to push for our benefit.
Pakistan economy is not Iraq or Iran where world want their natural resource and are willing to pay for it.
As long as no body bails out Pakis, Paki economy will collapse. There is infact no need for long term sanctions also. Just stop the damn freebies and aid packages.

But let us assume that the US does have the power. Why should India bargain with the US about this? Is it not in American interest to skewer Pakistan with Amritraj? Why should we negotiate away something for them take an action which is in their own interest. If it is not in their interest, then no amount of bargaining on our side will get the US to shift its position - or the price will be unpayable. There is no value in bargaining with the US on Pakistan. They can do what is in their interest, or not. It's their call in their relationship with Pakistan. We can, must and will deal with the Paks in our own way.

This is the tricky part. Let us say India wants to strangle Paki economy and hit the RAPE's and military. RAPE's have a sophisticated network of businesses all over the world ranging from carpets,jerseys,soccer balls to gun factories for mercenaries. These RAPE's infact finance most of their businesses from the Pakistani Government itself through funded schemes. They just extract the profit and move their profits overseas through a network of fake companies established in Gulf,African and Western countries.
It is very difficult for India alone to go after all these accounts in various countries.I think US has the resources to track the money and freeze the flow and accounts. If you believe that US does not have the capability to track and freeze accounts then we need to think again.
Now you can say Why would they do that for us? It is in US interest to engage India in an economic relationship. US will benefit in billions of dollars. India will too hence is a give and take.
Altair

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Dec 2011 09:11

^^
Altair I get the feeling that India does not want to treat Pakistan using the same paradigms that the US/west use in dealing with nations they hate.

In fact the western way of screwing entire nations has been so effective in the past that we Indians have a sneaking admiration for that efficacy and thoroughness and seek to see India apply the same paradigms to the screwing of Pakistan.

But I believe reality is more nuanced than this. First of all I think Pakistan has enough of India in it to avoid getting screwed the way the west has screwed others. Secondly, I think that Indians see too many links with Pakistan and too many commonalities to actually want to screw it that way. To many of us this is a "loser, dhimmi" attitude.

As time passes I am beginning to wonder whether India will treat Pakistan like it treats islamic extremism in India - through a mixed Indic-secular lens where Islam is not fought but allowed to thrive, but fights are suppressed.This is unique to India and in no way involves a general bludgeoning of Pakistan. These are some vague ideas that are still forming in my mind. I am not certain - but things seem to be moving in a direction that involves letting Pakistan's turmoil continue unabated while allowing an opening for anyone who wants to get back into an old "subcontinental" relationship. Pakistanyat's only defence against that are groups like the LeT, but increasing their fight is for space within Pakistan.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 20 Dec 2011 09:35

It's Conspiracy, I tell Ya!!
Pakistan blames “Afghan commander” for Nato attack: BBC

The British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) reported that the accused Afghan commander conspired on the instructions of Indian and Afghan intelligence to dismantle Pakistan’s ties with US and Nato.

"See, its not you or us, its them. Its got to be those evil short, dark Yindoos. Now that the air has been cleared, can we have our money?"

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 20 Dec 2011 10:06

anupmisra wrote:It's Conspiracy, I tell Ya!!
Pakistan blames “Afghan commander” for Nato attack: BBC

The British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) reported that the accused Afghan commander conspired on the instructions of Indian and Afghan intelligence to dismantle Pakistan’s ties with US and Nato.
"See, its not you or us, its them. Its got to be those evil short, dark Yindoos. Now that the air has been cleared, can we have our money?"

Oh wow. As good as a Tendulkar triple hundred!

Our non-state actors eliminated 24 TFTAs of the evil TSPA, equivalent to 240 SDREs. The Yindoos strategic depth is increasing.

Alas, hope this was true

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Dec 2011 10:07

SSridhar wrote:[I don't know how much to believe this report. But, if true, then Zardari decided to return only after the call from Kayani. And, the call certainly did not promise him 'protection' which in any case Kayani is not in a position to promise 100%.

Saddam promised his sons in law that he wont kill them if they return from Jordan. He kept his promised and asked his step brother to kill those 2 of his sons in laws. Kayani is cut from the same cloth. Zardari keeps Ak47 nearby even when he goes to sleep. He dont eat unless his sister taste the food first.It will be an interesting public event for Zardari to face Qadari sent by Kayani.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2011 10:57

anupmisra wrote:Pakistan blames “Afghan commander” for Nato attack: BBC
The British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) reported that the accused Afghan commander conspired on the instructions of Indian and Afghan intelligence to dismantle Pakistan’s ties with US and Nato.

Conspiracy, it should be. How can there be any doubt when this Salala attack has come after the Strategic Agreement was signed between Afghanistan & India ? Even a dimwit can see the connection. This is why Pakistan does not want the ANA or the Police to be trained by the Indians. Evil Indians.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 20 Dec 2011 11:38

I would appreciate any comments, suggestions or criticisms on what I just posted hereThanks for the input.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Dec 2011 11:58

Mengal is telling the guards they are not welcome in Balochistan.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2011 12:10

The sunset of North Korea's 'risen' son
One can see enormous similarities between North Korea and the 'Purest of Them All'.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 20 Dec 2011 12:13

shiv Ji: there are two salient and opposing factors that pakis see and have to deal with in matters relating to Indian muslims. First, the jingle in 47 was:

"hans ke liya pakistan, Lar ke lenge hindustan"

And yet...and yet..., the pakis are acutely aware of the widening gap between themselves and the muslim society left in India. That bothers them, and such "exaulted strategists and tacticians" as Hamid"what goes of my father"Gul have said on numerous occasions that India holds a huge part of the ummha as hostage, which ties the paki's hand. So, on one hand they want to "lar ke laynge hindustan" by way of a joint Indiaan muslim-paki effort, and on the other hand they feel their hands are tied because they feel responsible for their IM bretheren, who are "hostages" in India. But this last bit has become increasingly hard for them to swallow, in face of the changing fortunes of IMs.

PS I did not get a response to my email to you, so have posted my proposals here

niran · Post by **niran** » 20 Dec 2011 13:27

Jhujar wrote: Zardari keeps Ak47 nearby even when he goes to sleep. He dont eat unless his sister taste the food first.It will be an interesting public event for Zardari to face Qadari sent by Kayani.

why do you think zarda will get a fiery ending? kayani is the khamosh (silent) type, unlike his blusterous predecessors, these are the most dangerous of the fiends, Zarda medical illness has provided a pathway, he will be halaled using medical ways, lets say a million unit of Insulin in his vein, quick clean silent pucca pathway, no?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2011 13:31

Pranav wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:What India needs to do is to view TSP, nukes and all, as a province of China ending the current scenario of twins separated under Gandhi statue.
You need to give the Chinese the option of cutting off TSP without losing too much face. Even if it is a remote possibility, better to keep it open. So preserve the distinction, at least for public purposes.

If we accept that the main reason why China keeps TSP is as a tool against India then I don't see China cutting off TSP short of India openly accepting vassalhood and probably not even then since they can never count on India to not turn on them. China's adoption of TSP is deliberate policy, not an inadvertent error from which it needs an honorable exit.

There is no benefit to India to not being open and honest with China and going along with Chinese two-faced nanipulations just to save China's face. They need to be made responsible for their support of TSP and need to be told bluntly they will be made responsible.

Kanishka · Post by **Kanishka** » 20 Dec 2011 13:54

niran wrote:
Jhujar wrote: Zardari keeps Ak47 nearby even when he goes to sleep. He dont eat unless his sister taste the food first.It will be an interesting public event for Zardari to face Qadari sent by Kayani.
why do you think zarda will get a fiery ending? kayani is the khamosh (silent) type, unlike his blusterous predecessors, these are the most dangerous of the fiends, Zarda medical illness has provided a pathway, he will be halaled using medical ways, lets say a million unit of Insulin in his vein, quick clean silent pucca pathway, no?

He should keep glucagon emergency kit handy as well.

hulaku · Post by **hulaku** » 20 Dec 2011 14:07

SSridhar wrote:Conspiracy, it should be. How can there be any doubt when this Salala attack has come after the Strategic Agreement was signed between Afghanistan & India ? Even a dimwit can see the connection. This is why Pakistan does not want the ANA or the Police to be trained by the Indians. Evil Indians.

Another report

RAW collusion suspected: Probe faults Afghan serviceman for NATO air raid, says report

The probe report – parts of which have been shared with Nato forces in Kabul – states that no US soldier was involved in the airstrike on the Salala check post in the Mohmand Agency that left two dozen border guards dead.

Investigators are convinced that an Afghan National Army (ANA) officer conspired with India’s Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) and Afghanistan’s National Directorate of Security in prompting the Nato airstrike, an officer privy to the probe told the BBC.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/308841/afgh ... ck-report/

No US Soldier involved in the attack on Salala check post.

Was it the Djinns/ Vaccum Plast/ Sunroof lever that killed them ?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2011 14:13

AoA I pray to Ma Kali that the miserable brain-rotted TSP human garbage is actually right for once in its lunatic paranoia and RAW conspired with ANA to do a nara- medham to honor the departed souls of Mumbai.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 20 Dec 2011 14:19

^^^ the 24 Ghazhis were beaten by rag tag Afghan army trained by Kufrs? Hain ji??