Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 2011

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 30 Dec 2011 21:57

Doctor that did post mortem and blamed military on the famous Kharotabad incident which showed TSPA's bravery is now SHOT DEAD!!!

http://www.dawn.com/2011/12/30/kharotab ... -dead.html

Another Salim Shahzad..

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 30 Dec 2011 22:09

hain ji? Have we here missed such wonderful news about advances in Paki science and technology?

Who is this Ms. Namira Salim, who is "the first Pakistani Astronaut", and who yesterday "briefed the Prime Minister (Gropin' Gilly) about her space flights and other mile stone events"??

http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=132639

More links

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 30 Dec 2011 22:19

jrjrao wrote:hain ji? Have we here missed such wonderful news about advances in Paki science and technology?

Who is this Ms. Namira Salim, who is "the first Pakistani Astronaut"

I never knew Monaco had space program and they needed women painters in short skirts.

(jeez,i must stop reading playboy! damn you pakis!)

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Dec 2011 22:20

A_Gupta wrote:Moderators, it would be unfair to allow X on a thread, but not a response to X.

Brihaspati wrote: "Personal power hunger of the second scion of the founding line, led to acceptance of Partition".

That would have to include personal power hunger of Sardar Patel as well. Many sources can be cited, but Wiki is convenient. I am sorry, Brihaspati, but facts are facts, and they contradict your personal version of history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vallabhbha ... _partition
Wiki on Sardar Patel:

Vallabhbhai Patel was one of the first Congress leaders to accept the partition of India as a solution to the rising Muslim separatist movement led by Muhammad Ali Jinnah. He had been outraged by Jinnah's Direct Action campaign, which had provoked communal violence across India and by the viceroy's vetoes of his home department's plans to stop the violence on the grounds of constitutionality. Patel severely criticised the viceroy's induction of League ministers into the government, and the revalidation of the grouping scheme by the British without Congress approval. Although further outraged at the League's boycott of the assembly and non-acceptance of the plan of 16 May despite entering government, he was also aware that Jinnah did enjoy popular support amongst Muslims, and that an open conflict between him and the nationalists could degenerate into a Hindu-Muslim civil war of disastrous consequences. The continuation of a divided and weak central government would in Patel's mind, result in the wider fragmentation of India by encouraging more than 600 princely states towards independence.[44] Between the months of December 1946 and January 1947, Patel worked with civil servant V. P. Menon on the latter's suggestion for a separate dominion of Pakistan created out of Muslim-majority provinces. Communal violence in Bengal and Punjab in January and March 1947 further convinced Patel of the soundness of partition. Patel, a fierce critic of Jinnah's demand that the Hindu-majority areas of Punjab and Bengal be included in a Muslim state, obtained the partition of those provinces, thus blocking any possibility of their inclusion in Pakistan. Patel's decisiveness on the partition of Punjab and Bengal had won him many supporters and admirers amongst the Indian public, which had tired of the League's tactics, but he was criticised by Gandhi, Nehru, secular Muslims and socialists for a perceived eagerness to do so.

Yes that is a convenient spin put on to absolve the second scion of the initial steps already taken. Patel is a good whipping boy because he kept his mouth shut out of old-guard discipline. If you want - I can explore this in the proper thread where I have taken sup similar myths before : (1) the myth of wiping off imperialism from Asia at Bandung (2) the myth of decisiveness over Hyderabad (3) the myth of unbiasedness towards Hindu/Sikh and Muslim lives over Partition (4) the myth of saving India by staying "non-aligned".

It would be no problem now to look into the core of Pakistan formation myth if you want to - in the relevant thread. It would only anger a lot of hagiographers who will not be able to counter the facts as I lay them out and start personal attacks - and you don't mind?

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 30 Dec 2011 22:24

Altair wrote:
jrjrao wrote:hain ji? Have we here missed such wonderful news about advances in Paki science and technology?

Who is this Ms. Namira Salim, who is "the first Pakistani Astronaut"
I never knew Monaco had space program and they needed women painters in short skirts.
(jeez,i must stop reading playboy! damn you pakis!)

I just googled. Pakis call her first pakistani astronaut!!! When, how, where nobody knows. Pakis are a unique specie

Sir Richard Branson, chairman of the Virgin Group, officially launched Namira Salim as a Virgin Galactic Founder Astronaut in Dubai in March 2006. Hearing of this, the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting dubbed her the “First Pakistani Astronaut”.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 30 Dec 2011 22:29

jrjrao wrote:hain ji? Have we here missed such wonderful news about advances in Paki science and technology?

Who is this Ms. Namira Salim, who is "the first Pakistani Astronaut", and who yesterday "briefed the Prime Minister (Gropin' Gilly) about her space flights and other mile stone events"??

First of all,She is not a Paki. She is an Emirati. Her parents were pakis but were smart enough to escape the shit hole.
Secondly,She is NOT even a pilot. She is just one passenger out of hundred passengers lottery selected by Virgin Galactic for their first flight. The amount of spin is just unbelievable. Muthiah and Warnie would be proud.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 30 Dec 2011 22:36

ok, quetta death toll reaches 13.

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 30 Dec 2011 22:42

Yet another Paki Cho@tiyapanthi viz, this ass-trau-natt thingee.

Apparently this ayesha has a *certificate* in sub orbital training from a *private* institute, so by paki laWhore logic she becomes the first pakistani Ass-trau-natt, much like the famous pindigenious pakistani ROFl-o-copter.

Namira Presents Spaceflight Training Certificate to Musharraf. President Praises First Pakistani Astronaut

RAWALPINDI: President Pervez Musharraf has lauded the services of Namira Salim, first Pakistani astronaut, saying that she is symbol of the abilities and capabilities of Pakistani women to perform well in any field of endeavour.

The President was talking to Namira Salim when she called on him here on Wednesday.

The President congratulated her on qualifying as first Pakistani astronaut and on hoisting the National Flag at the South Pole, which raised the image of Pakistan.

During the meeting, Namira also presented to the President her Sub-Orbital Spaceflight Training Certificate which she recently completed at the NASTAR centre in the United States which makes her the only Pakistani to have qualified to go to space.

http://www.urdumanzil.com/um1/namira_salim/index.html

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 30 Dec 2011 22:44

Shiv,

What I mean by "popular narrative" is that previously that notion was solely used by Arundhati Roy types. But by MMS and his minions repeating that mantra and following it up with actual, on the record actions like the Samjhauta Express sham and filing of court petitions, criminal prosecution of "Saffron terrorists" etc., they have irreversibly weakened India's ability to take on TSPA jihadis.

Sure, maybe 1% of Indians even entertain such ideas, but that doesn't make the idea irrelevant because it has been solidified with official government actions and statements.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 30 Dec 2011 22:54

brihaspati wrote:Yes that is a convenient spin put on to absolve the second scion of the initial steps already taken. Patel is a good whipping boy because he kept his mouth shut out of old-guard discipline. If you want - I can explore this in the proper thread where I have taken sup similar myths before : (1) the myth of wiping off imperialism from Asia at Bandung (2) the myth of decisiveness over Hyderabad (3) the myth of unbiasedness towards Hindu/Sikh and Muslim lives over Partition (4) the myth of saving India by staying "non-aligned".

It would be no problem now to look into the core of Pakistan formation myth if you want to - in the relevant thread. It would only anger a lot of hagiographers who will not be able to counter the facts as I lay them out and start personal attacks - and you don't mind?

a. It would please me the most if your original post had been on the relevant thread only.

b. Sure, you can lay out your facts, and I will lay out mine. You state it as a threat. I see it as an opportunity for education.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 30 Dec 2011 22:56

Official Fan Page of Namira Salim: First Pakistani Astronaut, Founder of Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Galactic -- First Private Spaceline of the World

Believe not me ..that's what the face book page says..

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Namira-Sa ... 6791945228

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 30 Dec 2011 22:59

Suppiah wrote:
A_Gupta wrote: Or is it really all driven by vote bank politics? .... What is the basis of this narrative?
The issue is not whether someone votes for something, the issue is someone thinks they can make some people vote by doing certain things. Real voting trends and intentions are never known, let alone predicted.

But I agree, the vote bank angle is not the key driver here. But it is a driver because of ummah-wide impact, its blowback on IM, etc. IMHO ummah would not care as there are enough conflicts within itself.

As to uranium etc., the drivers are again different. India's economic ascendancy and closer strategic ties to US FWIW, is the key driver. After all, OZ is the pet poodle of Unkil in this part of the world.

Given the way ABV too talked of 'your sweet sweeter than my sweet' and held back after the Parliament attack, the fundamental issue seems to be that strategic/military advisers are telling the PM of the day, whoever that be, that a short and sweet victory is unlikely before world intervenes and the cost to economy are likely to be disproportionate to the benefit when hostilities stop, and hence it is better to wait for a few more years. Also TSP seems to be doing pretty good job self-destructing. It is also entirely possible that Gilani/PPP/Duspercenti are requesting India to let them fix the TSPA/ISI cabal and return to some sense of normality. I would believe that if a few more evidence is thrown to public - such as perhaps dead body of Dawood.

Whether they are right or wrong is another story..

Well, thanks, Suppiah!

So let me get this straight - in the TSP thread of all threads, it is acceptable for anyone of any citizenship to post opprobrium on the office of the Prime Minister of India, based on imagined/perceived motivation, that too, motivation which paints the Indian "Muslim vote bank" (not a handful of people, but the bulk of them) as so fixated on loving Pakistan, that this tops inflation or jobs or crime&security or education as their voting issue; i.e., as a fifth column.

I was just made aware of how many BRFers have been driven away to make this absurdity possible. If it is acceptable to speculate on the TSP thread that the office of the Prime Minister is saleable to anti-Indian interests, why is it not acceptable to speculate on this very thread that the position of BRF Moderators, who permit this, is even more saleable?

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 30 Dec 2011 23:06

harbans wrote:Official Fan Page of Namira Salim: First Pakistani Astronaut, Founder of Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Galactic -- First Private Spaceline of the World

Believe not me ..that's what the face book page says..

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Namira-Sa ... 6791945228

This is just unbelievable crap! She is marketing herself as a space regular but does not even have a pilot license. The highest she ever went was on a commercial jet liner. It is commendable that she did some base jumping but to project as founder of Virgin Galactic is just plain crazy!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Dec 2011 23:35

A_Gupta wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Yes that is a convenient spin put on to absolve the second scion of the initial steps already taken. Patel is a good whipping boy because he kept his mouth shut out of old-guard discipline. If you want - I can explore this in the proper thread where I have taken sup similar myths before : (1) the myth of wiping off imperialism from Asia at Bandung (2) the myth of decisiveness over Hyderabad (3) the myth of unbiasedness towards Hindu/Sikh and Muslim lives over Partition (4) the myth of saving India by staying "non-aligned".

It would be no problem now to look into the core of Pakistan formation myth if you want to - in the relevant thread. It would only anger a lot of hagiographers who will not be able to counter the facts as I lay them out and start personal attacks - and you don't mind?
a. It would please me the most if your original post had been on the relevant thread only.

b. Sure, you can lay out your facts, and I will lay out mine. You state it as a threat. I see it as an opportunity for education.

Original post was firmly connected to a possible explanation as to why preservation of Pakistan as an Islamist entity is a consistent part and result of the congrez gameplane - right from the "Partition" days. This was in further explanation as to people constantly expecting anything otherwise as regards TSP. Hence the posts were confined to TSP only. It was only this aspect of JLN's role as part of the dynasty - his role in founding the chain of attitude towards Pakistan - was proposed. If you are taking umbrage at the mention of JLN in respect of consistent congrez attitude towards Pakistan - then you should also state it very clearly, and not try to paint the post as off-topic for this thread. Evey paragraph of my post is related to showing the consistent cross-generational mentality and actions as well as reactions towards Pakistan.

P.S. I have added the relevant reply to the Partition dhaaga.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 31 Dec 2011 01:14

harbans wrote:
Wonder what does it say about the mettle of our agencies given that we seem to have held up pretty well against this big league rogue agency.
Well our guys tapped Mushy's call from China during Kargil ops. As for ISI i don't have much regard for it. It's a been a big failure if you really look at it. It's ruthless sure and has dealings/ works with all kinds of Mafia and criminal networks which other intels don't really deal with. ISI double dealed with the CIA for example, while CIA, Pentagon and the SD considered them 'Allies'. Now thats not some holding against, it's like back stabbing a friend who's powerful but trusts you. They are good at that. But all bets are off if the CIA or RAW really start trying to do what the ISI wants to do here. The day RAW really starts working on the Baluchistan, Sindh and Pashtun movements i doubt the ISI can be considered anything big league.

ISI from big leagues?

Any agency of the "big leagues" seem to have a) analytical division b) action division. Now a) is what distinguishes an intel agency from a goon squad. In ISI case, a) seems to be just a mullah reading aloud from a book and it is only about b) we hear about all the time. Anything to do with a) is abject failure on their part - from Afghan to Kashmir, ISI's failures in predicting anything are many.

ISI is all instant action and glory and never seems to have any interest in thinking about paki people's future. Combine that with a need for mijjile showoff amongst ummah, we have a strategy-challenged goon for hire for all players (including, if that xerox report is true - India ). Like any goon-squad, they always haggle over money and never over their country's future

If anything, our agencies had it easy in having an inflexible, muscle-headed goon squad to deal with. God forbid, if we had the likes of Markus Wolfe types to deal with on a constant basis.

(Judging from soviets merely "hrrumphing!!!" over Uzbeks and the way ISI fled the scene, it seems more like a tennis ball-picker boy fleeing the court once the actual players came back after a towel-down and found him posing with the racket for a phone-picture.......)

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 31 Dec 2011 02:59

Aditya_V wrote: Didn't Groper declare last year that they can do without IMF funding. I think significant IMF shareholders who are part of NATO should directly link the IMF tranch to TSP Khaki back pedalling, destroying their H&D publically.

IMF monies are due starting 2012. The debt servicing is expected to reduce FOREX reserves to 2Billion$ at the end of 2012 if Pakis dont secure Baksheesh from Unkil or more loans for IMF. All this talks of bravado is simply that. Bravado.

There have been some talks behind closed doors to declare a "moratorium" on debt servicing payments to foreign creditors. (WTF does that even mean?) Which might be the last resort for Pakis.

Sudip · Post by **Sudip** » 31 Dec 2011 06:03

A look at the kidnapping industry at karachi. Follows the story of a kidnap victim and his family. Finally, despite all efforts, the family pays ransom and finally says that they are planning to leave paikhanastan

gives a good look at the city of karachi

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 31 Dec 2011 06:41

Gupta-ji, let the boys let off some steam, dont blame the mods..having said that, I would request anyone commenting on MMS, whether or not he is PM to post some hard evidence about his alleged sell-offs. This man is decent. The future may say that he is making a blunder being led by fake peaceniks who have Beijing's interests at heart but that does make him a traitor himself.

The dynasty is another matter altogether, it has a proven track record of putting self before anything else, and flirt with every evil force to further its electoral interests, as shown by Bindranwale, LTTE, Shilanyas at Ayodhya, Shaobano and so many other affairs.

archan · Post by **archan** » 31 Dec 2011 06:56

A_Gupta wrote: I was just made aware of how many BRFers have been driven away to make this absurdity possible. If it is acceptable to speculate on the TSP thread that the office of the Prime Minister is saleable to anti-Indian interests, why is it not acceptable to speculate on this very thread that the position of BRF Moderators, who permit this, is even more saleable?

While it is true we let a lot of stuff which we wish was not posted, stay posted (often hoping that it won't be repeated by the said person) but we have our limitations in terms of time. We cannot always read every post and/or get after every such 'infringement'. Having said that, I may mention that a very active poster, RamaY was banned yesterday because of their comment on MMS in this very thread. We do act, even if we don't always advertise it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2011 07:09

Rangudu wrote:Shiv,

What I mean by "popular narrative" is that previously that notion was solely used by Arundhati Roy types. But by MMS and his minions repeating that mantra and following it up with actual, on the record actions like the Samjhauta Express sham and filing of court petitions, criminal prosecution of "Saffron terrorists" etc., they have irreversibly weakened India's ability to take on TSPA jihadis.

Sure, maybe 1% of Indians even entertain such ideas, but that doesn't make the idea irrelevant because it has been solidified with official government actions and statements.

R-man the whole issue is easy to spin in a completely different way. Because there are a section of Hindus who believe in the Two Nation theory and are out to attack Muslims, India has a bad reputation internationally whereby wars imposed by Pakistan on India are interpreted as Hindu versus Muslim war between Muslim Pakistan and Hindu dominated India The Indian government would need to be seen as going out of its way to show that this characterization of India as Hindu power trying to intimidate Muslim Pakistan is baseless.

This actually puts all Hindus on the back foot. If they want a "good reputation" then they have to agree with what the government is doing. If they don't care about the reputation, there should be absolutely no worry about the characterization and there should be an open willingness to admit that Hindus have rights and a minority of Hindus have actually indulged in violence against Muslims to claim what is their legitimate right.

This is a political dilemma imposed by the Congress on its political opponents while simultaneously earning brownie points internationally. But how do you represent a Hindu viewpoint if you deny that Hindus have a genuine grievance and have been violent on occasion? Isn't it plain hogwash to claim that all Hindus are "secular" an "tolerant" when a large number of Hindus openly say that this business is loaded against Hindus. An Indian government has to say that is is following national and international laws. It cannot represent a particular religious interest. If the international press has open evidence of violent actions by Hindus no government can say "No. Hindus are tolerant, secular, ahimsa-pasand people" This is how the world works and it is harsh.

Pakistan has been open in supporting Islamic terror groups and Pakistani spokespersons are on record saying that Hindu India is out to destroy Pakistan. This is by and large believed in most countries of the world to a lesser or greater extent.

The USA is a prime example of a country whose official or unofficial policy has been to support Pakistani use of Islamic militia against India and the US is not bothering to split hairs and say "Islamic militia are being used against a secular India". They don't give a shit and the US can cover its ass and keep its conscience clean by saying that Pakistan's Islamist groups are in a religious war against Indian Hindu groups (Hutu-Tutsi redux). Exactly how do you prove to a skeptical USA that it is a lie? The US, having supported terror against India by direct support to Pakistan, will jump at the first evidence of "Hindu terror" and say "You Hindus are liars and are living in denial". This is exactly the tone used by the likes of Martha Nussbaum.

Vivek_A · Post by **Vivek_A** » 31 Dec 2011 07:53

If wishes were horses, pakis would ride

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namira_Salim

She may also become the first Pakistani to travel into space after she was shortlised among 100 space tourists by the world's first commercial space liner Virgin Galactic in 2007 out of 44,000 candidates

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 31 Dec 2011 08:06

DocJi,

Hate to invoke kirket analogies after the depressing Melbourne debacle, and also not to sound flattering or condescending, but that was a clean sixer. I would like to add though that the onus on changing that narrative rests on the shoulders of Indians and Indian leadership; I do my bit when I can, but MMS's pathetic appeasement of TSP in part using the squalid "Saffron terror" == TSP state sponsored pigLeT terror is certainly not helping matters.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 31 Dec 2011 09:13

jrjrao wrote:hain ji? Have we here missed such wonderful news about advances in Paki science and technology?

Who is this Ms. Namira Salim, who is "the first Pakistani Astronaut", and who yesterday "briefed the Prime Minister (Gropin' Gilly) about her space flights and other mile stone events"??
..........

Actually she is the latest Pakistani member of the mile high club, a significant requirement in the advanced Pakistani space program for all its assthrownauts, why are you folks all jealous and bothering them, hain ji?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 31 Dec 2011 09:42

Anujan wrote:IMF monies are due starting 2012. The debt servicing is expected to reduce FOREX reserves to 2Billion$ at the end of 2012 if Pakis dont secure Baksheesh from Unkil or more loans for IMF. All this talks of bravado is simply that. Bravado.

There have been some talks behind closed doors to declare a "moratorium" on debt servicing payments to foreign creditors. (WTF does that even mean?) Which might be the last resort for Pakis.

After 9/11, the US rescheduled debt repayments by Pakistan for 28 years. In spite of that, Pakistan has to repay some principal periodically to those entities not covered by the reschedule. It also has to pay interest annually to the debts from external borrowers. These two (known as debt servicing) add up to over USD 7 Billion annually for Pakistan. Now, Pakistan wants to have a one-sided moratorium on paying this 3 B USD annually ! The lenders should agree. Any such move must further lower its credit rating which is already near junk. But, Pakistan is not easily deterred by such poor ratings because it knows that the stakeholders (the 3½ Friends of Democratic Pakistan) would save it from drowning, though barely so.

Normally, whenever such requests are made to the lenders, they would impose stringent conditions before agreeing to a reschedule. We have to see what happens now. The US has several levers against Pakistan if it wishes to apply pressure on this wretched country. They know that Pakistan's proximity to China does not help her in these matters.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 31 Dec 2011 09:45

This is what I like in Israelis. They are a proud Jewish nation, a home land for jews. They dont give a $hit what anyone thinks about them. Israel is also a secular state but I admire how they portray their Jewish identity.
I hope India behaves as it should in defending its Hindu identity while remaining "secular" for the world.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2011 09:46

CRamS wrote: the onus on changing that narrative rests on the shoulders of Indians and Indian leadership;

CRamS this is correct. But let me explain (I hate to use the word piskology again, so let me change it to something more serious sounding -psychology)

There is a very definite psychological hitch in the way different groups of Indians see and relate to each other that beings out dissonant and discordant notes even if they all mean the same thing. Indian leaders are elected out of this very same mass of Indians and suffer from the same weaknesses and do not get any special psychological adjustment mechanisms to make then self aware about the same idiocies and contradictions that they display.

We on BRF actually represent one section of the intellectual elite of India and are in a position to be dispassionately judgemental about Nehru, Gandhi, Jinnah or Sardar Patel. I believe that we have a duty not to fall l into a partisan trap where we start inadvertently supporting some (unnamed opposition) political parties by our opposition to personalities in one party simply because the other political parties are filled with Indians who have the same measure of inferiority, self hate and confusion about who or what is a Hindu that the Indian education system has been disseminating for a century.

MMS may be exactly what you describe him to be, but the others are frighteningly bad themselves. Since they too are looking for power - any support you give them by dissing MMS is welcomed by them. But they are not necessarily the solution. There is a definite reason why Indian politics should be kept out of a discussion regarding Pakistan and this is one of them.

Let me make another statement about Indian Americans in general without meaning to be nasty. I mean no ill will or ill intent and am posting piskology. I have more close family in America than in India. Feel free to refute. Indians with their faulty education go to the USA and grow up there and see a good system at work there. Particularly they see that the selection of the President and his team is spectacular. The US selects a man who actually has leadership qualities and has been asked about what he is going to do. And unfortunately Indian Americans somehow begin to equate the powerful President of the US with the "equivalent post" the PM of India believing that the PM of India (being PM) also somehow has all the leadership abilities that any US president has.

This is simply not true. Indian Prime Ministers are like you and me - same faulty Indian education but with a proven track record of getting votes. Some "leaders" may actually be local gang leaders but that's about it. Hardly chosen for international leadership caliber. If you look back at Nehru now you can see how he was a small and vulnerable human in front of leaders who were already adept at dealing with colonies, empires and international wars. So each time you curse an Indian PM and compare him with a resolute US president - it is your own fundamental ignorance of what is what that shows up. MMS is merely a bureaucrat, not a leader thrown into the post by a combination of circumstances. If India works it works because no one weak and faulty man can hold all the power. In fact when the US fails it fails miserably because one man holds enough power to screw things up as Dubya did.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 31 Dec 2011 09:47

hnair wrote: ISI from big leagues?

Any agency of the "big leagues" seem to have a) analytical division b) action division. Now a) is what distinguishes an intel agency from a goon squad. In ISI case, a) seems to be just a mullah reading aloud from a book and it is only about b) we hear about all the time. Anything to do with a) is abject failure on their part - from Afghan to Kashmir, ISI's failures in predicting anything are many.

ISI is all instant action and glory and never seems to have any interest in thinking about paki people's future. Combine that with a need for mijjile showoff amongst ummah, we have a strategy-challenged goon for hire for all players (including, if that xerox report is true - India ). Like any goon-squad, they always haggle over money and never over their country's future

If anything, our agencies had it easy in having an inflexible, muscle-headed goon squad to deal with. God forbid, if we had the likes of Markus Wolfe types to deal with on a constant basis.

Agree. ISI enjoys tremendous operational freedom which would simply be impossible in any half decent democracy. And they've used that freedom recklessly like a bull in a china shop. True, they handle the Pushtuns really well but in Afghanistan they had Khan seeing red mist (and smelling blood) and willing to overlook their transgressions.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 31 Dec 2011 09:48

Shiv

GoI can appear secular without going out of the way to create fake Saffron terror bogies. What MMS and the Italian lady's chelas have done recently is beyond risible.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 31 Dec 2011 10:36

abhishek_sharma wrote:There should be a separate thread where people could post their priceless chanakian theories.

If there were an Olympics for mental gymnastics, India would win the Gold Medal every time.

It's actually quite simple. India cannot solve the Pakistan problem because our cities would get nuked. This is assuming we could even successfully invade Pakistan in the first place, which is by no means guaranteed even without factoring in the possibility of Chinese intervention. There is no "solution" to the problem that doesn't result in grevious human and economic damage to India.

Every other discussion is just dancing around this overarching reality: we aren't strong enough to solve the Pakistan problem in any acceptable way. Maybe no one is (not even the vaunted US).

Period. End of story. There is really no need to invent convoluted theories involving the prime minister, DDM, etc. Even if the entire country were united in the desire to crush Pakistan once and for all, it would still be impossible.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 Dec 2011 11:13

Y. Kanan wrote:Every other discussion is just dancing around this overarching reality: we aren't strong enough to solve the Pakistan problem in any acceptable way. Maybe no one is (not even the vaunted US).

Period. End of story.

Question is, are we bright enough to solve the Pakistan problem! If the answer is yes, then the second question brings us full circle, why doesn't the political leadership show the political will to solve the problem!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 31 Dec 2011 11:32

Y. Kanan, I do not think we had ever attempted seriously to solve the problem.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 31 Dec 2011 11:38

Sriman wrote:ISI enjoys tremendous operational freedom which would simply be impossible in any half decent democracy. And they've used that freedom recklessly like a bull in a china shop. True, they handle the Pushtuns really well but in Afghanistan they had Khan seeing red mist (and smelling blood) and willing to overlook their transgressions.

Sriman, you talk as though somebody above them has given the ISI the operational freedom. No, they rule supreme and they give freedom to others to operate depending upon exigencies.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 31 Dec 2011 11:50

SSridhar wrote:Y. Kanan, I do not think we had ever attempted seriously to solve the problem.

I hate to be OT on this thread, but let me add to what you said above. It is a question of national priorities.

In Pakistan the priority of the nation is set by the elites and as Shiv saar has elucidated here countless times, the priority is to destroy India and rule over Hindus, whether they have to let go of their power stations and their railways or have people eat grass. They have pursued this in a single minded fashion and they will GUBO to any external entity who can gang up with them to beat Hindu India up.

The mirror question is what is Indias priorities and who sets them. The above debates fall into either of these categories. It is clear that our priority is not Pakistan. Although it was our priority in 1971, Kargil and the other two wars and we know the result. As of now, it is not the priority. Why, how and who sets the priority is a matter for another thread I believe.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 31 Dec 2011 12:04

RajeshA wrote:
Y. Kanan wrote:Every other discussion is just dancing around this overarching reality: we aren't strong enough to solve the Pakistan problem in any acceptable way. Maybe no one is (not even the vaunted US).

Period. End of story.
Question is, are we bright enough to solve the Pakistan problem! If the answer is yes, then the second question brings us full circle, why doesn't the political leadership show the political will to solve the problem!

We should not forget that Chanakya's quest started with getting the right leadership into place. If we, as a nation, remain satisfied with opaque elections, it means that we have not grasped the ABCs of sovereignty. There is a long way to go before we can effectively deal with external adversaries.

A long time back, people talked about Sama-Dama-Bheda-Danda. There is a lot of wisdom in that, but you need to go deeper, adapt to modern circumstances, and have a time horizon that extends over generations. We do not have that vision, and because of the blinkers that have been put on us, we are unable to learn form those who do have it.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 Dec 2011 12:13

Deals with the issue of Pakistanis in high positions holding dual nationality

Farahnaz joins dual nationality club: The News (Pak)

Code: Select all

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=10894&Cat=13

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Dec 2011 12:20

hnair wrote: <SNIP>(Judging from soviets merely "hrrumphing!!!" over Uzbeks and the way ISI fled the scene, it seems more like a tennis ball-picker boy fleeing the court once the actual players came back after a towel-down and found him posing with the racket for a phone-picture.......)

I think it was mentioned in the book Bear Trap that after couple of raids across the Oxus, the USSR threatened the very existense of Pakistan and that was it for the Ghazis...And as for big league, the narrow minded and vendetta natured focus of ISI and PA has reduced Pakistan to the rump state it is in....it has done nothing but nurtured and tried to further the wet-dreams lunatics sitting in GHQ and other wannabe mard-e-momin...but when faced with counter-attack, has tucked tail and scooted away. The Indian retaliation to Khalistani militancy and Pakistan down-hill ski is another case in point...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 31 Dec 2011 13:07

lakshmikanth wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Y. Kanan, I do not think we had ever attempted seriously to solve the problem.
It is a question of national priorities.

I believe that this is an excuse trotted out to mask our failing. Our 'nation building' priority in the five decades before circumstances forced us to adopt different strategies in the 90s, was an abysmal failure. So, we neither built our nation nor took care of its security but explain away our usual inaction with chanakyan theories. Anyway, I won't discuss this anymore here.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Dec 2011 13:25

> Pakistanis in high positions holding dual nationality

a hedge against being stuck if things hit fan, a place of exile and securing the kids future if its not to be in TSP.

but this also means most money is parked abroad under custodianship of gotus, HMG, swiss and these people can be easily pressured to do what massa wants else lose both their money and citizenship.

dada · Post by **dada** » 31 Dec 2011 13:34

I think our analysis has missed "climate change". Explosion in food prices were the background to street protests throughout ME in the recent past. Scientists say that floods and droughts will become more common in future. This has begun to happen. Weather extremes are bound to effect crop yields in unpredictable ways. Rising food prices should be understood as cause not consequence of social/political turmoil. This has pushed millions into poverty and stressed the most vulnerable social segments who spend more than 50% of their income on food. Social Structure of pakistan is well known to all. (Practically all the foot soldier jihadis/terrorists of pakistan come from this segment)

Until recently, global food crises have been relatively rare events occurring perhaps 3/4 times in a century.
The last major one to have truly global ramifications occurred in 1972-74 when real prices of rice trebled and real wheat prices doubled. This coincided with the oil price rise as well. As one philosopher has put it aptly "Hunger trumps lofty thoughts"

What do yout think of the underlying causes/drivers of muslim invasions into india since the ages ? Were they purely driven by religion ? I dont think so. We lack concepts which subsume both "POLITICAL ISLAM" & "Ecological factors" into the framework. Muslim Invaders have always successfully used these factors to their own advantage. TSPA/ISI are no exception even in the 21st century.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Dec 2011 14:18

sept 2011

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/chine ... ols-131404

Chinese to be made compulsory in Sindh schools

Press Trust of India, Updated: September 05, 2011 13:12 IST

Islamabad: The government in Pakistan's Sindh province has decided to make the Chinese language a compulsory subject in schools from 2013, sparking a debate in the educational and political circles over the reasons behind such a move.

The decision was taken at a high level meeting yesterday presided over by Chief Minister of Sindh province Qaim Ali Shah, an official statement said.

According to the announcement, Chinese will be a compulsory subject from class six in all educational institutions, including the Cadet college of Petaro from the 2013 session.

Sindh Education Minister Pir Mazhar-ul-Haq said the decision was taken keeping in mind the close ties with China and its growing role as a economic giant in the world.

"Our trade, educational and other relations are growing with China everyday and now it is necessary for our younger generation to have command over their language," Mazhar said.

He pointed out that this move would reap benefits in the longer run for Pakistan.

The move drew a mixed reaction in education circles, although the Vice Chancellor of the Karachi University Dr Peerzada Qasim supported the decision.

"China is not only a very close friend of Pakistan but also a major player in the global economy whose role will further strengthen in the future," he said.

But many termed it as a political decision and said that educational institutions lacked qualified teachers in the Chinese language and also the resources to implement the course.

Ather Mirza, the President of the Sindh Professors and Lecturers Association, said it was a move by the political leadership to gain points with China and gain financial benefits from them.

He said the introduction of the Chinese language would not only put an additional burden on parents, but also on students, who were already made to learn three languages - English, Urdu and Sindhi - as compulsory subjects.

Another educationist said the government decision came out of the blue as it was not discussed or debated in recent meetings of the education department with the chief minister or education minister.

It is reported that President Zardari's daughter Aseefa Bhutto has been planning to study Chinese in China after graduating from college.

Sources said that the provincial government also decided to award scholarships to educated people of Sindh for learning Chinese at educational institutions in China.

Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/chine ... -131404&cp