India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 3

[srai]

As an aside, the Typhoon seems to lack an Anti-Ship missile (including planned weapon integrations). I'm not aware of a any plan to integrate the Harpoon. The Rafale of course has the air-launched Exocet. The other issue of course is that most a-to-g weapons integration including the Brimstone and Storm Shadow is still ongoing or planned unlike for the Rafale.

EADS has been looking at the feasibility of integrating the Marte-ER anti-ship missile with the Typhoon.

Aviation Week article

Here is a pdf document from http://www.eurofighter.com that has a static weapon display for EF. One of the weapons displayed is the Kongsberg NSM.
Eurofighter Typhoon - Nothing Comes Close

[srai]

Livefist updates Eurofighter has been identified as the lowest bidder(L1) by the MOD, but still in rumour phase.....
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2012/01/eu ... ndian.html

It looks to be a perfect setup by the MoD.

Remember how the contract for 10 C-17s plus 6 options and 4 more P8I were signed along with hints of follow on order for 6 more C-130Js just before the F-18 and F-16 were eliminated from the MRCA competition. Then for the Russians, MoD signed the huge $35 billion (potential) 216+48 PAK-FA/FGFA JV and intent deal along with additional 29 MiG-29Ks and 40 more Su-30MKIs (plus hints of super MKI upgrades). Now with the $4 billion upgrade of the 51 Mirage-2000s w/ 450 MICAs being signed recently with France plus hints of 3 more Scorpene SSK, the setup is perfect for announcing the EF as the winner of the MMRCA competition. Every major player goes home "happy" with something in the bag (although not as big as the winner)

[Singha]

your theory has the ring of truth to it.

something from NSM wiki:

A multi-role version of the NSM is in development. This missile is called Joint Strike Missile (JSM) and will feature an option for ground strike and a two-way communications line, so that the missile can communicate with the central control room or other missiles in the air. This missile will be integrated with the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II "Joint Strike Fighter". Studies have shown that the F-35 would be able to carry two of these in its internal bays, while additional missiles could be carried externally.

According to Kongsberg, this "multi-role NSM" is the only powered anti-ship missile that will fit inside the F-35's internal bays.[5] Lockheed Martin and Kongsberg have signed a joint-marketing agreement for this air-launched version of the NSM, as well as an agreement committing both parties to integrating the JSM on the F-35 platform.[6][7] The project is funded by Norway and Australia.[8] Kongsberg signed a contract for the first phase of development of the JSM in April, 2009, which is scheduled for completion within 18 months.[9]

Improved features for the Joint Strike Missile include:

Ability to attack sea and land based targets
Aerial launch platform (F-35)
Improved range over NSM to 240km [2]
Long-term, production start in 2013

The JSM will have multicore computers running Integrity real-time operating system from Green Hills Software.[10

[Singha]

i wonder if in a2a role, 4x amraamD (semi conformal) , 4x astra1(amraamC7 for now) and 2 asraam/aim9x/Python5 will be the eventual stable config for us? I have my doubts we will ever go for the expensive meteor ....

combined with the swatchplate captor-E , it will be a formidable a2a force for sure.

[nash]

By 2022 combo of 400+ fighter of 4.5+ generation (EF + MKI) IAF will be an force to reckon.... would be enough for Two-Front war.

[uddu]

It's better to be wise during this difficult times. The difficult time of looting by Rajas.
We can cut down the deal for MMRCA to 66 with option for 60 more aircraft and order 60 Tejas mark-1 to the present order of 40 aircraft. So 100 Tejas Mark-1 which can be followed by around 126 mark-II (2016 onwards).

[Cain Marko]

By 2022 combo of 400+ fighter of 4.5+ generation (EF + MKI) IAF will be an force to reckon.... would be enough for Two-Front war.

Yeah, but what if it happens 10 years earlier?

i wonder if in a2a role, 4x amraamD (semi conformal) , 4x astra1(amraamC7 for now) and 2 asraam/aim9x/Python5 will be the eventual stable config for us? I have my doubts we will ever go for the expensive meteor ....

combined with the swatchplate captor-E , it will be a formidable a2a force for sure.

Whats the point of having a super radar if you don't have missiles to take advantage of its reach? I think we'll see the meteor as the VLRAAM (minimal quantities), Astra as the MRAAM (max qty), and Asraam as SRAAM (medium qties).

It looks to be a perfect setup by the MoD.

Remember how the contract for 10 C-17s plus 6 options and 4 more P8I were signed along with hints of follow on order for 6 more C-130Js just before the F-18 and F-16 were eliminated from the MRCA competition. Then for the Russians, MoD signed the huge $35 billion (potential) 216+48 PAK-FA/FGFA JV and intent deal along with additional 29 MiG-29Ks and 40 more Su-30MKIs (plus hints of super MKI upgrades). Now with the $4 billion upgrade of the 51 Mirage-2000s w/ 450 MICAs being signed recently with France plus hints of 3 more Scorpene SSK, the setup is perfect for announcing the EF as the winner of the MMRCA competition. Every major player goes home "happy" with something in the bag (although not as big as the winner)

Yup! I'll buy this argument - Eurofitter it is! It was sealed the day the M2k deal went through, no wonder it took so bloody long to get the M2k upg. deal going, and yes the increased nos of scorpene means Fra won't whine. Afterall, iirc, even the Indian Ambassador to Italy had confirmed this months back.

Chalo, Eurofritter hi sahi; no complaints from me although Rafale has it on all round capabilities and looks. I think the Fritter has certain advantages - we can expect 18-20 to join the AF in double quick time, which will certainly help stem the numbers freefall. Even if they come with the Captor M, and limited A2G capabilities, they'll be worth their price in gold if the **** hits the fan in a 2 front war in the short term. Right now BVR, there is simply nothing to equal the EF2K a2a with either the Chinese or TSP. The EF is well suited to QRA and interception missions, where the IAF lacks a bit. What I'd really like to see is a team of IAF pilots be sent to the UK for training on RAF Tiffies within a few months of signature. Deliveries of the first 18 should start within 6 months of signature with well trained aircrews bringing the birds home from the UK/Ger.

Execution and deliveries should be pronto quick, I have a feeling we'll need 'em.

[Singha]

600 meteors wont be cheap for sure. amraamD sounds ok to me.

[Badar]

Right now BVR, there is simply nothing to equal the EF2K a2a with either the Chinese or TSP. The EF is well suited to QRA and interception missions, where the IAF lacks a bit. What I'd really like to see is a team of IAF pilots be sent to the UK for training on RAF Tiffies within a few months of signature. Deliveries of the first 18 should start within 6 months of signature with well trained aircrews bringing the birds home from the UK/Ger.

umm .. wasn't it argued in this very forum that the MKI is the best air to air platform bar raptor? What has changed overnight? What exactly makes the EF better than MKI?

[Singha]

higher ceiling, faster climb rate, faster sprint speed, less wing loading, semi-conformal meteor(when available), swatchplate aesa radar with 1500 cells, wingtip towed decoy, more integrated defensive aid system, storm shadow, sdb2, amraamC7/D , aim9x/pyth5/asraam , smaller frontal RCS, more refined manufacturing, better engine coming EJ220(!)..the best among the current crop of engines its alleged, better glass cockpit designed as such from day1, frameless HUD, one piece bubble canopy....style, chutzpah, precision...

all of which are better than MKI. the mki does carry more farther....f15e style.

[Cain Marko]

Right now BVR, there is simply nothing to equal the EF2K a2a with either the Chinese or TSP. The EF is well suited to QRA and interception missions, where the IAF lacks a bit. What I'd really like to see is a team of IAF pilots be sent to the UK for training on RAF Tiffies within a few months of signature. Deliveries of the first 18 should start within 6 months of signature with well trained aircrews bringing the birds home from the UK/Ger.

umm .. wasn't it argued in this very forum that the MKI is the best air to air platform bar raptor? What has changed overnight? What exactly makes the EF better than MKI?

IMVHO, the MKI is not so well suited to QRA type missions - most heavies are not tasked with this - rather see LCAs/MRCAs doing such things. BTw, I dunno who argued what and when but yes, bar the Raptor, the MKI is arguably the best there is. But then, I'd think that a Su-35, EF-2k, RAfale and F-15SG (all with AESA) would be upto par - difference of unnees-bees in different regimes that is all. JMT

The full specced EF as illustrated by Singha garu is more comparable to the Super 30 MKI - and there again, it'll be v.v.hard to say which would be tops A2A (if the Super 30 is anything like the Su-35).

CM

[Cain Marko]

600 meteors wont be cheap for sure. amraamD sounds ok to me.

Well, the rate at which they are spending, won't be surprised if some numbers are bought. Amraam D is gut too!

[Sriman]

600 meteors wont be cheap for sure. amraamD sounds ok to me.

Will Khan export AIM-120D? It's not export cleared for even pet munnas AFAIK.

[Singha]

surely yes - khan amortizes cost by exporting. they are already at work on next gen joint air dominance aam.

[chiragAS]

The first 18 will be delivered fast. the remaining which has to be manufactured in India with Offset will make it a slow process.
Any guesses how long this will take for IAF to get all the birds? will it be faster than the current production rate of Su's

[koti]

Whats the point of having a super radar if you don't have missiles to take advantage of its reach? I think we'll see the meteor as the VLRAAM (minimal quantities), Astra as the MRAAM (max qty), and Asraam as SRAAM (medium qties).

It will come handy when engaging against the likes of JSF and J-20.
We will have the AWACS killer K-100 and integrating it for the EF should not be impossible.

[saptarishi]

Whats the point of having a super radar if you don't have missiles to take advantage of its reach? I think we'll see the meteor as the VLRAAM (minimal quantities), Astra as the MRAAM (max qty), and Asraam as SRAAM (medium qties).

It will come handy when engaging against the likes of JSF and J-20.
We will have the AWACS killer K-100 and integrating it for the EF should not be impossible.

k-100 is a cancelled missile. there was a competition between novator (k-100/ks-172) and tactical missiles corporation jsc ( newer version of r-37) for a long range anti awacs missile,in which jsc tactical missiles corporation won, and the winning design came to be known as rvv-bd .currently this is the only long range anti awacs missile in russia

[koti]

Wait,
We funded a dead project, it is the K-100. It was going good for some time

Is it dead again and replaced as RVV-BD. What happens to our money?
Are we funding the RVV-BD now?
How come RVV BD has funds where as K-100 needed Indian funds?

[saptarishi]

Wait,
We funded a dead project, it is the K-100. It was going good for some time

Is it dead again and replaced as RVV-BD. What happens to our money?
Are we funding the RVV-BD now?
How come RVV BD has funds where as K-100 needed Indian funds?

india never started funding this project,india was offered participation in this project on joint basis something on lines of the brahmos project,but sadly it never took off.so it is dead as of now and russia is going ahead with r-37 and its export version rvv-bd.

[Singha]

a upsized astra seeker (more space, more aperture and tx power, with aesa antenna for LPI and beam sharpening), two way datalink and glonass input, based out of a shorter AAD airframe is our stealth LRAAM. coat it in RAM. its anyway has composites in airframe.

[Will]

Right now BVR, there is simply nothing to equal the EF2K a2a with either the Chinese or TSP. The EF is well suited to QRA and interception missions, where the IAF lacks a bit. What I'd really like to see is a team of IAF pilots be sent to the UK for training on RAF Tiffies within a few months of signature. Deliveries of the first 18 should start within 6 months of signature with well trained aircrews bringing the birds home from the UK/Ger.

umm .. wasn't it argued in this very forum that the MKI is the best air to air platform bar raptor? What has changed overnight? What exactly makes the EF better than MKI?

Ummm the fact the the IAF maybe getting it. That's the single most important reason. If the IAF dosent get the EF then the MKI is still the best

[Singha]

every single rafale guy seems to have silently departed this thread.

atmosphere of a funeral home here...

dassault 2012 calender has a awesome painting of a trio of rafale on strike mission
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2012/01/ ... -2012.html

[krishnan]

So the rumors are some what true

[rajanb]

every single rafale guy seems to have silently departed this thread.

atmosphere of a funeral home here...

Not at all Sir.

Since the technicals do a Tiffy=Katrina, I just hope we get the best one FOR OUR NEEDS.

If Raffy doesn't win, then the frogs have themselves to blame, not the Katrina. This drama has taken so long would love to see any one of them draped in our colours.

[krishnan]

I think French shot them self in the foot with the mirage deal ... or they made it costly knowing that they have lost the MMRCA deal

[Austin]

I wouldnt believe in those rumours until we hear the official results , in the past there have been many rumours related to who wins and it has been proven wrong.

Lets not raise a toast on Typhoon win and cry over Rafale funeral it could just be that the case of dead man walking

[Indranil]

every single rafale guy seems to have silently departed this thread.

atmosphere of a funeral home here...

dassault 2012 calender has a awesome painting of a trio of rafale on strike mission
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2012/01/ ... -2012.html

First of all, L1 rumors are rumors, second of all L1 necessarily might not be chosen.

Besides what do you expect the Rafale supporters to do? It is not like the EF supporters are vindicated and Rafale supporters should walk back home with drooped heads. There is no way to say which plane is better than the best. I think every Rafale supporter here reveres the EF and vice versa.

[Will]

Well Indranil, you have hit the nail on the head. All of us have our favourite amongst the two but all of us without doubt just want to see one of them in IAF colours ASAP whichever one it maybe

[rajanb]

I think French shot them self in the foot with the mirage deal ... or they made it costly knowing that they have lost the MMRCA deal

I had heard, few months back, that the overly high cost of the mirage deal, had to do with a lower cost for Katrina. So, only time will tell.

Doesn't matter who wins. Just need them and in double quick time!

[geeth]

I think every Rafale supporter here reveres the EF and vice versa.

I support Rafale, not because of its superior tech, but because of the fact that it is from France. Also, I don't support EF, not because it is inferior tech, but because it is made by a consortium and UK is one of the members of the consortium (what if any one of the consortium members link future supplies to adherance to NSG rules, NPT or even abolition of death penalty?)

Having said that, I wouldn't support Rafale either, if the price is way too much. If then, simply manufacture more SUMKIs, if required the later versions..and wait for PAKFA as and when (and if) they arrive. Meanwhile, stamp on the toe of IAF chief ask him to take the LCA in whatever form it is ready..specifically, ask him not to compare the LCA specs with that of MMRCA winner or PAKFA or F-22.

[tejas]

The EF is a good plane. It's just so damn ugly! I still like the Rafale but want something pucrhased yesterday.

[Lalmohan]

i honestly don't care which one wins - both are as good as each other, though strategically (from a mil-eng complex development perspective) EF is the better choice
rafale though is much sec-c'er!

[tsarkar]

umm .. wasn't it argued in this very forum that the MKI is the best air to air platform bar raptor? What has changed overnight?

The joys of Jingo-giri

[koti]

The EF is a good plane. It's just so damn ugly! I still like the Rafale but want something pucrhased yesterday.

ugly you say...

[rajanb]

^^^^ Beauty is in the eys of the beholder.

[SaiK]

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2012/01/da ... mours.html
raffy: nothing is finished..

so, if the decision is based on looks, then katrina is the one.
but, she has been losing charm as well, as people need much more than looks. what is the point she remains only on the screen looking beautiful ?

[rajanb]

I think both sides are chewing their nails.

A joint meeting this evening with both vendors.

a) Either the winner being announced, taking care of price, ToT, and political considerations
b) Or the commencement of a "Sudden Death" round.
c) Or NOOOOOOOOOO cancellation of MMRCA?

[trushant]

I think both sides are chewing their nails.

A joint meeting this evening with both vendors.

a) Either the winner being announced, taking care of price, ToT, and political considerations
b) Or the commencement of a "Sudden Death" round.
c) Or NOOOOOOOOOO cancellation of MMRCA?

I guess the route would be -
1. Declaration of L1 today considering the upfront cost + lifecycle cost + weapons+ ToT + Offsets
2. Negotiations with the L1 as thats the provision in DPP ... if the quoted prices are above the benchmarks set by MoD (thats a mighty big chance)
3. Final proposal to be submitted to Finance Ministry for approval
4. Approval by CCS
5. PMO approval and award of contract

Dont think sudden death round is mentioned anywhere in the DPP...and if the contract gets cancelled .... well Ex ACM P V Naik still can patent the evaluation procedure as a consolation

[Rahul M]

umm .. wasn't it argued in this very forum that the MKI is the best air to air platform bar raptor? What has changed overnight?

The joys of Jingo-giri

not so fast. I remember an interview from a serving RAF VCAS on the occasion of farnborough air show 2000 and he categorically stated that he considered the EF 2000, as it was called back then not up to the task of countering the latest flankers. both have come a long way since then, EF has some advantages due to better TWR and smaller RCS. overall the two are quite close. whatever gap may have opened up in the interim would be closed with the flanker 30.

[Rahul M]

^^^^ Beauty is in the eys of the beerholder.

corrected. the EF has an ugly moustache.