Small Arms Thread

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 15 Jan 2012 21:06

Thanks ArmenT. The article says that OFB has increased the rate of fire by shortening the travel of bullet in the barrel. I am assuming it means a shorter barrel or earlier tapping of gases for autoloading and subsequently higher pressure gases impinging on the piston, increasing the speed of the whole autoloading mechanism? So to accomodate that, OFB is using stiffer recoil spring which is causing stoppages? When I first read tilting breach, tilting barrel came to my mind. Are there any examples of tilting barrel rifles?

Cheers....

member_21708 · Post by **member_21708** » 15 Jan 2012 22:19

Sanjay wrote:I am sure we have all seen this one:

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-i ... ory/213685

Can anyone identify the weapon at approx 2:23-2:25 min and the assault rifle carried by the man bringing up the rear at 2:35-2:40 ?

Assistance much appreciated.

Did you mean these?

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 16 Jan 2012 00:49

YUP !

I am speculating the last one is a Franchi SPAS 15 and the first some variant of the MP5.

vic · Post by **vic** » 16 Jan 2012 10:09

VinodTK wrote:Indian 'AK-47' too fast for its own good
:
:
Called the Trichy Assault Rifle (TAR), the gun is being developed at the Tiruchirapalli Ordnance Factory in Tamil Nadu. The faster firing capacity was the USP for the Indian AK. It could fire 800 bullets in a minute as against 600 from the Russian rifle.
:
:

There is lot of information in the news item if one looks carefully though I really wonder the journalist understood what he was writing about.

The mechanism of Trichy seems to be “tilt bolt” which means that it is modification of FN FAL = Isapore 7.62x51. Just for info the FN MAG also used the same firing mechanism. It seems second attempt at making an indigenous rifle firing 7.62x39 round. The earlier attempt was A-7 which used rotating bolt similar to AK-47 or INSAS.

Normally tilt bolt is not successful with less powerful rounds and FN did not have much success with tilt bolt 5.56x45.

Trichy is a modification of Isapore rifle firing 7.62x39 round from AK compatible Mag, therefore its extraction mechanism will be like Isapore but unlike AK.

The high rate of fire can be small or a big problem depending on the changes required. Sometimes it can required massive re-design of almost every component of the firing & extracting mechanism. I wonder if OFB has access to test rigs and high speed cameras required to solve such a problem.

To add further - High rate of fire is not a good idea for assault rifle. Ideal spot is around 400 to 600 rounds per minute. Further rifles are designed to fire around 10 to 20 rounds per minute in sustained role (150-300 rounds) or around 30-50 rounds per minute for a couple of minutes.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2012 03:38

So vic could be the spring(designed for 7.62 mm x51) is too stiff for the 7.62 mmx39 cartridge leading to the jamming under too high a rate of fire?

Recently I watched a show on Discovery "Son of Guns" episode on a modified AR-15. They had a spring issue too.

vic · Post by **vic** » 21 Jan 2012 16:00

ramana wrote:So vic could be the spring(designed for 7.62 mm x51) is too stiff for the 7.62 mmx39 cartridge leading to the jamming under too high a rate of fire?

Recently I watched a show on Discovery "Son of Guns" episode on a modified AR-15. They had a spring issue too.

There can be lot of reasons for jamming. Google for problems in SA-80 UK rifle to get an idea

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jan 2012 10:22

vic wrote:
ramana wrote:So vic could be the spring(designed for 7.62 mm x51) is too stiff for the 7.62 mmx39 cartridge leading to the jamming under too high a rate of fire?

Recently I watched a show on Discovery "Son of Guns" episode on a modified AR-15. They had a spring issue too.[problems in SA-80 UK rifle
There can be lot of reasons for jamming. Google for problems in SA-80 UK rifle to get an idea

Thanks for the hint
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/SA80.html

The SA80 is a bullpup design so the ejector port is beside the firer's cheek. This means the weapon can only be fired from the right shoulder. Most other bullpups allow certain parts to the switched around to accommodate left handed shooters, but the SA80 is strictly right shoulder only.
The flaw for this is best illustrated by the following two pictures.
The first shows an American Soldier firing around a right hand corner and firing his weapon from his left shoulder. Obviously he could not do this if he had a weapon that he had to disassemble and re-assemble before he could swap shoulders.

The second image shows a Para with a SA-80. The cover in this case is a tree, but it could just as easily be wall. Perhaps the other side of the tree can't be fired from because of thick undergrowth or enemy fire. He has to fire from his right shoulder, so the only way to fire from the right side of cover involves exposing most of his body to enemy fire.
Such situations can occur in many types of terrain, but are obviously very common in MOUT. If you had to lean out a window to fire down the right side of a street you'd not only be a great target, you'd probably be leaning so far out there was a danger of falling out the window.

Another interesting point is made by combat veteran Ralph Zumbro

“One of the oddball things we discovered in RVN was that if you add a few left-handers to your point squad, it has a better chance of surviving an ambush because they habitually carry their weapons pointed to the right. Also a non smoking point man can SMELL fish-eaters....And somone who is color blind compensates by seeing more texture and can usually spot camouflage, especially day old dead foliage.”

Experienced weapon developer J.D. Jones, inventor of the Whisperâ rounds adds:
“One problem I have experienced with bullpups in steady semi auto fire or full auto is the fumes of firing escaping from the action are very irritating to the nose, throat and eyes. In my limited experience the bullpups offer much less in effectiveness when it comes to putting metal on a target in a hurry (full auto--semi auto --or mounting the gun) than a conventional M-16. But I readily admit I have experience with only a few of them.”

PW: Interesting -and quite significant in that bullpups are often touted as being better for firing from vehicles. Fumes are a problem with any prolonged firing in a confined space such as a vehicle, but it seems this is likely to be an even greater problem with a Bullpup.
The Chinese military seem to have encountered the same problem with their bullpup:-

“The Type 95 assault rifle adopts a bullpup layout similar to the French Giat FAMAS and the British SA80 assault rifles. The efficiency of this design has been highly controversial from the experience of its fielding in the PLA. The weapon is generally regarded great when used for close-range, hip-firing. However, when the weapon is used for long-range accurate shoulder-firing, the smoke, noise, heat and disturbance of the ejected cartridges are widely complained.”

[/quote]

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jan 2012 10:42

Is the Trichy a bullpup design?

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 22 Jan 2012 10:49

not according to the pics

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jan 2012 11:07

So how is the SA 80 relevant? Its like ask about them apples and I get info about oranges.

koti · Post by **koti** » 23 Jan 2012 13:34

There is a small hump on the butt of Insas towards the rear.

What is it for?

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 23 Jan 2012 17:25

^^^
Looks like the latch for the butt-plate compartment. INSAS is designed with a small compartment in the butt of the rifle, where one can store some basic cleaning tools and an oil bottle. The door of this compartment is at the base of the butt and that little hump looks like where the door latch (or maybe the door hinge) is.

koti · Post by **koti** » 23 Jan 2012 17:46

I was under the impression that this could have some functional usage too.
Even the Ishapore 1A1 has a similar hump.

I am not sure whether a latch mandates a hump.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jan 2012 23:47

New AK-12 ---> http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3636/aaaaaaabh.png
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/9228/byse3.jpg

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jan 2012 11:20

Kalashnikov AK-12 Unveiled

Izhmash has officially unveiled the final production model of the AK-12 Assault Rifle. According to Max Popenker there will be two models, a Light model (5.45x39mm, 5.56x45mm and 7.62x39mm) that accepts all magazines that work with existing AK rifles, as well as a new 60 round quad stack magazine, and a Heavy (7.62x51mm) model that will use a new magazine.

The rifle's major new features are ...

* Ambidextrous forward charging handle.
* Smaller ejection port.
* New safety switch.
* New fire control switch with three modes of fire (single shot, 3 round burst and full auto).
* New hinged top cover. The cover is a lot more rigid that the previous AK rifles.
* Quad picatinny rails.
* Folding and length adjustable stock.
* Ergonomic pistol grip (with a decent radius between trigger guard and grip).
* New muzzle brake that attaches to standard NATO 22mm threading.
* Improved barrel rifling.

Whilst it is not pretty, ion fact it is downright ugly, it possess all the features of the latest western assault rifles.

vic · Post by **vic** » 26 Jan 2012 22:26

This is ak copying ins as

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Feb 2012 00:18

Video of AK-12.

http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=396726

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 15 Feb 2012 22:08

BSF's Faulty Sub-Machine, Barrett MX-4, To Be Replaced

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Feb 2012 03:44

Don't know how India manages to get the worst from the best!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Feb 2012 06:17

ramana wrote:Don't know how India manages to get the worst from the best!

I'm guessing its because the so called "best", Beretta supplied rubbish to India. The reputation exceeds the quality.

The high- tech MX4 9mm Storm assault rifle failed the test, internal correspondence between the BSF's Gujarat frontier unit to the Delhi-based BSF Headquarters in January. It says that when the sample weapon was test fired, it bulged.

The test fire report suggests that the gun would not only be ineffective in neutralising the enemy, but there are also chances of the barrel of the weapon exploding and causing serious injuries. The document also noted other defects in the sample weapon.

Having discovered the shortcomings during test fire, the BSF's Gujarat frontier unit had sought advice from its headquarters on whether they should dump the weapons.When BSF Headquarters received this communication, senior officers summoned officials from Beretta.

The documents also suggest other serious problems with these guns. Corrosion was found on 113 guns. 164 guns had tool marks and nine guns had machining rings.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/dud- ... 73289.html

The Italians are not doing quailty control it seems.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 16 Feb 2012 06:34

Since the Italians agreed to replace them without much hoopla, it was obviously their fault.

Can gurus throw light on how a 9mm SMG can be useful to a force like BSF, whose main job is policing the border? They would not have to deal with too many CQB situations like what the NSG or SPG may encounter.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Feb 2012 08:22

To me here is one more illustration of the "automatic contempt" of fellow Indian by Indian when something is wrong. The Times Now video blames the BSF for goofing when in fact they have not goofed up. Beretta has goofed up

The video shows that after the weapon consignment was delivered

113 weapons had new corrosion
164 weapons with tool marks
9 weapons showed machining ring problems
1 weapon bulged on firing

This actually shows thoroughness, not deficiency. The weapons shown to the BSF and tested in Italy were fine. This is typical of any salesman who shows shiny stuff but sends out rubbish to the monkey who may not notice it. Why do Indians automatically blame other Indians when dealing with gora aadmi?

Watch the video
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/video/bsf- ... 73233.html

vic · Post by **vic** » 16 Feb 2012 10:34

Frankly all these issues are minor and it seems a motivated leak to discredit Beretta by Rivals. Having said this the whole business of small arms procurement by para military by imports is stinking. The reasons for massive purchase of small arms by Para military like 5.56 mm Tavor, 9mm beretta, Mp5s for around Rs. 350-500 crores seem dubious. Folding stock INSAS with indigenous holographic sight would have done the job at 1/5th the cost. The R&D cost for INSAS was Rs 5 crores and even now the R&D cost for a new rifle is around US$ 2 to 10 million depending on the nation and design.

OLD REPORT

Home Minister P. Chidambaram has mooted the creation of a centralised procurement board for buying small arms for the paramilitary forces. A miffed Chidambaram is understood to have suggested this after reports of deviations from tender norms surfaced in acquisitions of firearms by two paramilitary forces.

In March, the Border Security Force (BSF) signed a contract with Italian gun maker Beretta for buying 68,000 submachine guns worth over Rs 400 crore. The size of the deal raised eyebrows because few had heard of the Beretta weapon. Late last year, its sister service, the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), signed an order for the purchase of 12,000 X-95 Tavor carbines from Israel costing over Rs 1 lakh apiece. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Feb 2012 23:18

So each force is getting its own weapons! And now the BSF procurement is shoddy. Who does BSF engage that they need these exotic wepaons? Isnt it deployed at borders in which case the INSAS should be good enough for its good for the Indian Army?

Looks like its Beretta's fault and they are replacing them. Mfg warranty clauses.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Feb 2012 09:15

ramana wrote:So each force is getting its own weapons! And now the BSF procurement is shoddy. Who does BSF engage that they need these exotic wepaons? Isnt it deployed at borders in which case the INSAS should be good enough for its good for the Indian Army?

I don't think the weapon is exotic beyond the fact that pulp fiction makes the name Beretta exotic. But it is a compact weapon as far as I can tell. Even the INSAS looks too big for this BSF girl. We need Indian girl sized weapons too I suspect.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 17 Feb 2012 09:23

Question is what will that BSF girl (or any BSF soldier) do with a 9mm SMG while guarding the border.

9mm SMG's are generally used by SPECOPS for close quarter battles.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Feb 2012 09:29

Gurneesh wrote:Question is what will that BSF girl (or any BSF soldier) do with a 9mm SMG while guarding the border.

9mm SMG's are generally used by SPECOPS for close quarter battles.

Well here is what my Unkal says
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011 ... chine-gun/

The Beretta Mx4 Storm is a new submachine gun version of the Beretta Cx4 Storm semi-automatic carbine. The Mx4 has been designed for the Indian Ministry of Home Affairs who should be receiving their first shipment in the next 12 months.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/it/submachine- ... mx4-e.html

Beretta MX4 submachine gun is the newest product of the world’s oldest gun making company, Beretta of Italy. It was first announced during IDEX 2011 exhibition, along with information that India ordered 34 500 Beretta MX4 submachine guns for its Ministry of Home Affairs forces.

Beretta MX4 submachine gun is based on the successful Beretta CX4 Storm semi-automatic carbine, originally developed for civilian and security use. It uses same blowback operated action with polymer body of the gun and fixed shoulder stock, as well as same ambidextrous controls. Charging handle can be set at either side of the gun, ejection also can be arranged either to the left or to the right, according to user preferences. Double stack magazines are inserted into the pistol grip, standard magazine capacity is 30 rounds. Beretta MX4 submachine gun is normally equipped with iron sights, and an integral Picatinny rail is provided at the top of the receiver for installation of additional sights (Red Dot, IR/Night etc)

The BSF is replacing its stock of 9 mm Sterling carbines with another 9 mm. Maybe they have humongous ammo stocks anyway.

vic · Post by **vic** » 17 Feb 2012 09:48

Let me explain, An AK or INSAS is better, almost of same weight and size as 9mm SMG Beretta and 1/5th the cost.

Massive number of 9mm SMG used to make sense when primary weapon was bolt action rifle or even heavy FN FAL 7.62x51 SLRs. With the assault rifles taking over, such massive purchases of Rs. 500 crores of SMGs smack of, looks like, smells like cra* err corruption. Let m ask how many 9mm Beretta has been purchased by Italy?

Look at the SMGs being purchased by us Beretta, FN, HK, Tavor, Colt etc. There is no need for this product, a need is created and then fulfilled by dubious imports.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Feb 2012 01:07

shiv wrote: The BSF is replacing its stock of 9 mm Sterling carbines with another 9 mm. Maybe they have humongous ammo stocks anyway.

I never really understood what role the Sterling played either.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Feb 2012 05:57

nachiket wrote:
shiv wrote: The BSF is replacing its stock of 9 mm Sterling carbines with another 9 mm. Maybe they have humongous ammo stocks anyway.
I never really understood what role the Sterling played either.

In the BSF? I don't know either - except that as someone said that the Sterling made sense for close in fighting when everyone else was carrying 303s. Also I have plenty of memories (and I still see) the Sterling being carried for VIP security in the front/back seat of a car (compact) and it crowded places where raising a long weapon into firing position is physically restricted. How this translates to BSF requirement I don't know although vic's theory may be correct - you have to keep money flowing to skim some off. But I would have thought that an order for 30,000 rifles would raise at least one eyebrow somewhere. More than one person would be making money from that making lots more people jealous.

Does anyone know what is the manpower strength of the BSF. A simple Google did not help me.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 18 Feb 2012 06:07

Sterling was issued to officers and JCOs as a PDW. That was the role - give them something more than a pistol. It was also issued to radio operators. Actually it still is.

BSF strength is around 210,261 as of last year I think. It was given in a MHA report card.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Feb 2012 06:14

Sanjay wrote:Sterling was issued to officers and JCOs as a PDW. That was the role - give them something more than a pistol. It was also issued to radio operators. Actually it still is.

Hmmm. Can't be their role in the BSF, since they ordered 68000 MX4s. That's way to many just for equipping Officers and radio operators. Besides, the INSAS doesn't face the shortcomings of the unwieldy FN-FAL. Officers should be no problem carrying the INSAS as well.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 18 Feb 2012 06:21

I agree - I actually thought the figure was 34,000 MX4 - but it could be that some lower velocity weapons were needed for border policing rather than defence ?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Feb 2012 06:27

Sanjay wrote:I agree - I actually thought the figure was 34,000 MX4 - but it could be that some lower velocity weapons were needed for border policing rather than defence ?

Oh, I read the 68000 number here...

vic wrote: OLD REPORT

Home Minister P. Chidambaram has mooted the creation of a centralised procurement board for buying small arms for the paramilitary forces.....

In March, the Border Security Force (BSF) signed a contract with Italian gun maker Beretta for buying 68,000 submachine guns worth over Rs 400 crore. .....

The India Today article mentions 34000 guns though.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Feb 2012 07:21

Being charitable to the men and women who are actually literally on the frontline - more so than the army, I think that there must be some requirement for this sort of weapon that we are missing - given the mental image that I have at least of men an women patrolling next to a fence on open ground with a long rifle slung on the shoulder.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 18 Feb 2012 07:38

Actually - been thinking. Allocate 2 per section - radio op and section commander. Add to that weapons for vehicle crews, officers etc and you might really get the requirement for these weapons.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 18 Feb 2012 09:35

It is incorrect to assume that BSF does not need submachine guns because they are a border protection force and not a CQB force.As if both are mutually exclusive.There are lot of sections on Indian Borders that are densely populated and where there is a real chance of CQB happening.For eg Indo Bangladesh border.Some BRFites also seem to be missing that BSF has also been performing Counter insurgency for a long time from Kashmir valley to currently in Naxal areas.So to say that BSF does not need SMGs is wrong.

However it is indeed debatable that whether Beretta should have been chosen for this contract as it is no longer synonymous with quality.Beretta weapons are not bad but they are not very good either.Just mediocre.There are reliability issues.But then in India since selection is done on L1 basis , any firm which fulfills the QR can get the contract.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 18 Feb 2012 10:54

shiv wrote:..I think that there must be some requirement for this sort of weapon that we are missing -

This is the right way to look at it IMO too. For a force like BSF, the only utility of a 9mm SMG that I can think of is policing well-subdued rear areas where the local population is unarmed and overt show of weapons is not desirable. Truly doubt the Berettas are meant for border duty, even for drivers and officers.

vic · Post by **vic** » 18 Feb 2012 11:28

There was some requirement of 2G scam also which Supreme Court did not understand (missed)

vic · Post by **vic** » 18 Feb 2012 11:53

BSF will operate in Civilian areas which/when are facing Terrorist threats or armed insurgencies, which are "military" in nature and 9mm SMG weapons are inadequate for the purpose. It is well recoganised that (apart from very limited situations) 9mm SMG are for self protection or emergency use. If you look at USA it uses 9mm SMG for very limited role like giving it to pilots