Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[Indranil]

There is another side too ... the inefficiencies of these organizations cannot be just overlooked.

I am interested in this ... because I am an NRI who wants to return to India ... I am pretty sure I can get a good private job. But I want to contribute to the core of Indian development ... The reason I think this is not OT and might be discussed here is because I think I am not an unique case ... and India should provide initiative to atleast attract talent who are much much more valuable than me ... I find that missing.

Let me narrate a true story of Dr. A (American by passport, Indian by heart) whom I know very closely. Dr A is in his early 50s and is definitely within the top 5 researchers in the world in his field ... he wins grants worth millions of dollars every year ... his papers push state of art and his textbook is taught in universities.

He tried many times to return to India ... He took up part time positions in IIT XYZ and even migrated his entire family to India for several months every year just to initiate a complete migration back to India. At IIT XYZ, he is an endowed chair and again has grants worth crores.

I was talking to him recently and found that he is not going to go back to IIT anymore ... he remarked sadly, "Indranil, I tried and failed. I hope you succeed ... but I can't work freely there ... the bureaucracy strangulates me" ... he is relegated to send some scores of thousand dollars to India in charity every year ... Can you imagine India's loss ... is he a lesser patriot?

He is not a one off case ... here's another example ... the chief of another extremely high power government agency is an Indian American ... Dr. A. and the chief tried to organize a meeting with the Indian counterparts with discussion of technology and possible co-development/ colaboration ... The description of the meeting hall is such ... on the American delegation side there were 10 people ... on the Indian side there were none ... for 2 hours!

I am the son and nephew of people who dedicated their best years to government organizations and worked in the top tier ... As much as I love the organizations, I don't think I need to be educated about the inefficiencies of their operations.

P.S. May I add that Dr. A is in a field where India is ostensibly seeking expertise.

[Indranil]

Surya ji,

I am quoting figures from this year's IIT XYZ's placement ... Good packages sought by Masters students were considered above 15 LPA ... People who got less than that were not happy ... These are 20-22 year olds ... you do the math.

P.S. Ofcourse IIT is not the gold standard of merit ... but I am giving you an example

[vic]

Re Indranilroy

Pvt sector is ramping up its expertise in R&D, one should try TATAs, Mahindras or even ask lalas like Reliance Group for offers. The salaries for a Director GTRE (even by Indian standards) should be atleast Rs. 1-2 crores per annum and for enticing well meaning NRI around US$ 1-2 million. If we are looking an ex-talent from RR, MTU, GE then we should look at around US$ 10-20 million per annum

[suryag]

IR ji check the profile of Dr.Rajesh Sundaresan, IISc Bangalore. He is one of the best researchers I know in the field of WCDMA/MIMO/OFDMA systems. He is not any armchair Peechaddi he is a proper engineer who is also a PhD very hard to find such types. He left one of the most cushy jobs in US and went back to teaching at IISc. HE has possibly battled everything that Dr.A above has battled. In addition i encourage you to goto the following link

https://sites.google.com/site/newfacultyiisc/

I think he is one of the authors of the above website, the content of the website itself shows his attitude i.e., an attitude to mold yourself to the system and work the system to your advantage

So for every 10 Dr.As there will be one Dr.Rajesh Sundaresan "hopefully"

[Indranil]

Surya ji, please drop the ji for me.

But is it worth losing 10 Dr. As is India wants to catch up and lead the world soon?

[Kailash]

First phase Kaveri Engine trial encouraging

BANGALORE: While the delay in the completion of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was lamented by the armed forces, the developers of the Kaveri Engine stated that the tests of the same was encouraging. Interacting with media persons after the celebrations of the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, V K Saraswat said that the first phase of the flight evaluations on board, the IL-76 aircraft was successful. He added that Phase II would start once the specific modification was done.

Commenting on the delay of the protoypes of LCA, both navy and air force versions, he said, “It is a step beyond prototypes. So we should not look at few months of delay very seriously.” He added the LCA Navy should fly in a month. He shared that the taxi trials were underway and said that they had to ensure the systems and equipment of the two versions were working.

[Indranil]

Re Indranilroy

Pvt sector is ramping up its expertise in R&D, one should try TATAs, Mahindras or even ask lalas like Reliance Group for offers. The salaries for a Director GTRE (even by Indian standards) should be atleast Rs. 1-2 crores per annum and for enticing well meaning NRI around US$ 1-2 million. If we are looking an ex-talent from RR, MTU, GE then we should look at around US$ 10-20 million per annum

I think you are being sarcastic ... but anyways I labor on here with my point ... don't think people are looking for millions to return to India ... if you ask any NRI who wants to return to India, he or she already factors in a fraction of the salary he is presently drawing to be satisfied in India ... I mean these guys are not fools!

But I ask you, how many of the people you know (in their mid careers) would be ready to work for an organization for half their present salary ... there will be prestige and a feeling of contribution to the nation and all ... how many will be ready to join tomorrow.

In my friend circle, I would be surprised to find even one.

[Indranil]

I think I should rest my case.

1. I believe I am a patriot and believe our organizations should be able to attract and retain talent.
2. Patriotism alone will not be a sustainable model, we have to suitably incentivize it.

These are my thoughts and observations drawn from the sample around me. I might be completely wrong!

[suryag]

What is this specific modification, why cant the media people find that out from Dr.Saraswat.

Btw IRji(that ji is for the things i have learnt from your posts ) what GTRE needs is mid level leadership. Something of a mix of a program manager who is also a hands on techie guy to steer the projects.

To accommodate the salary aspirations, GTRE can shift out of blore to Nagpur. That way the same salary will be very competitive(purchasing power wise). Arrange for schools and quarters in Nagpur and scientists will be happy. In India Tatas/Godrejs will be happy making doors(and attendant profits) and will never venture into big ticket items like engines given the uncertainties in selling them. So entry of private sectors in aviation will not help unless there is a concerted government program to promote them by way of tax breaks/risk sharing

[Indranil]

^^^ I am humbled ... but please drop the ji

Hmmm ... I agree that it is a spaghetti bowl ... I wonder where we should start untangling the mess ... I have given up on the government

[tsarkar]

It seems DRDO is looking for a new Head For GTRE. Advertisement from the RAC website

Allow me to say this ... that salary is not going to attract any managerial head of any good quality! That is the average salary of a fresh undergrad/Masters student from a decent engineering/managerial school! I have friends whose salary consists of an extra zero and I am not thirty yet!

That is just monthly basic pay. The following add up -

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=job_sc.jsp

In addition to the Basic Pay(Pay in Pay Band plus Grade Pay) DRDS scientists are entitled to get House Rent Allowance upto 30% of Basic Pay in case of non-availability of Government accommodation and other allowances viz, DA, Transport Allowance with DA on it etc. as admissible to Central Government employees.

Perquisites like Leave Travel Concession, Medical facilities, Advances for PCs/Conveyance/House Building are also admissible. In addition, DRDS Scientists are also eligible for grant of amount equivalent to two increments in the grades of Scientist `C' to `F' and Special Pay of Rs. 4000/- to Scientist `G' per month; Professional update allowance of Rs 10,000/- (for Scientist 'B' , 'C' and 'D'), Rs 20,000/- (for Scientist 'E' and Scientist 'F') Rs 30,000/- (for Scientist G onwards) per annum and reimbursement of expenditures on newspapers/periodicals also admissible in accordance with provisions of relevant Rules.

Performance Related Incentive Scheme (PRIS)

As per recommendations of the 6th CPC DRDO has implemented the PRIS by way of granting variable increments to meritorious scientists on their promotion to next higher grade based on their performance in the lower grade.

If your friends are making 8 lpm adding up to 96 lpa under 30, I wonder what their profile is. I for a fact know the CEO’s of India’s 6th, 7th & 8th largest IT firms as per NASSCOM make less than that (excluding their performance incentive, which is not counted in Scientist H basic + variable + perks).

If we look at GTRE chief’s pay with India adjusted pay of Program Director of say, GE404 or LM2500, then it is quite competitive.

Govt doesnt pay argument is BS. Otherwise we wont have chaps queing up for IAS exams and spend years preparing.

[Indranil]

^^^ This should be suitably advertised!

[tsarkar]

I forgot pension, that I too get monthly

[Indranil]

tsarkar ji trust me that I am not exaggerating when I say I have friends who are payed 30-50 LPA ... Goes without saying that they are IIT toppers followed by IIM toppers and bla bla and bla bla ... but this not something completely out of the blue ... there have been campus offers for undergraduates for above 30 LPA in India (of course this one made news).

Recently, I heard Microsoft went to some campuses and asked the selected to choose between Hyderabad or Seattle on comparable pays.

P.S. Anyways, I have laid out what I know. I may be judgemental, but I only want something comparable for the people who work there. I will only be glad to be proven wrong. No more posts on this issue from me .

[tsarkar]

Indranil-ji, not disputing what you're stating, only pointing out the fine print.

My working career timeframe covers services in the first half and the private sector in the second half. Coincidentally, the experience split is exactly 50:50. Private sector experience covers Investment Banking and thereafter IT, both of which are among the better paying sectors. And I have been associated with our esteemed educational institutions from both sides of the fence.

A large part of CTC is variable and performance related pay, tied to individual, team and organizational performance, and also in perks and stock options. Individual performance parameters are also steep. While I intend no disrespect to the ability of these bright fellows to max their incentives, actual achievement is 1 in 100, even for the best & brightest.

Most of my (middle aged ) colleagues are from IIT & IIM and our CTC seems phenomenal on paper, but actual performance based payout isn't. And since we're 1-2 levels below the CXO ranks, we know how much they make annually.

With regards to government jobs, the cash indicated is the actual cash paid. And the perks are again, very tangible perks. Without perquisite tax being charged on them

I would personally rate a government job better in terms of compensation than a MNC bank or an international IT company.

[vic]

I think you are being sarcastic ... but anyways I labor on here with my point ... don't think people are looking for millions to return to India ... if you ask any NRI who wants to return to India, he or she already factors in a fraction of the salary he is presently drawing to be satisfied in India ... I mean these guys are not fools!

But I ask you, how many of the people you know (in their mid careers) would be ready to work for an organization for half their present salary ... there will be prestige and a feeling of contribution to the nation and all ... how many will be ready to join tomorrow.

In my friend circle, I would be surprised to find even one.

The funny thing is that I am NOT being sarcastic. The low salary being offered for highly technical job like GTRE Director is idiotic. Me and wife are working at mid level in mid level professional (non -engineering) work for mid level companies in thirties and taking home Rs 50L each pre annum. Our equivalent in Govt work are taking 1/10th which is very low.

[Aditya_V]

OT-> but looking at the Sal levels looking I chose the wrong stream for Education.

[aakashj]

I forgot pension, that I too get monthly

Apologize for OT.

New govt employees joining after 2003 (as far as i remember) dont have fixed pension based on last salary drawn. The new govt pension scheme is very similar to pension scheme in private sector where a fixed amount of contribution by employee and employer are accumulated in pf account.

[negi]

Indranil money is not an issue my brother quit his co more than 2 years back to join the fauj he still does not make enough to match his pay stub in the product co. I know quite a few who have done that , specially after the 6th pay commission recommendations came into force. Our problem is not with the pay scale of a Scientist 'x' but with not getting enough students to pursue research after their bachelors degree in desh. Once you leave the country for higher education stuff like paying the edu loan back and obviously a higher std of living and career options in the west become detrimental to India's chances of attracting such folks.

As for the part about complaints about conditions in India not being conducive for research when compared to the west is concerned my take on that is the moment you start comparing the two IMHO you have made the choice of not returning back.

[Indranil]

^^^ That is a wonderful wonderful point.

The researcher generally says 'I want to do new exciting work' which there is no dearth of in India

The second point the researcher wants to do is do research unhindered where I question/suggest/discuss without the bureaucracy/hierarchy/red tape in mind. This is a true roadblock in India or so is the general perception. If India could give a free hand to its researchers, just look at how many flock back.

My point is not people gloating for money ... my point is don't loose people for want of money ... there was talk about heads of departments speaking about retaining talent in GTRE ... am I wrong?

[Jamie Boscardin]

The funny thing is that I am NOT being sarcastic. The low salary being offered for highly technical job like GTRE Director is idiotic. Me and wife are working at mid level in mid level professional (non -engineering) work for mid level companies in thirties and taking home Rs 50L each pre annum. Our equivalent in Govt work are taking 1/10th which is very low.

Professionals from the other side of 2000 (<2000) had the biggest advantage in terms of salary, coz of IT & Banking boom. They were able to get the max bang.
A lot of Indians were requested to start and play a big role in the planned or already opened centers in India with good/equivalent packages. Initial setup team and the core team etc formed to kick -start the centers were paid heavily.
Not to forget that the avg billing for a offshore IT professional with let's say 10yrs exp was around 8K$+ pre-2000, now its more or less around 3300$ pppm and with more players in the frame, under-pricing is used as an imp tool to win projects.

Vic,
Just out of sheer curiosity, where's your work location?

[Rahul M]

It seems DRDO is looking for a new Head For GTRE.

Advertisement from the RAC website

Allow me to say this ... that salary is not going to attract any managerial head of any good quality! That is the average salary of a fresh undergrad/Masters student from a decent engineering/managerial school! I have friends whose salary consists of an extra zero and I am not thirty yet!

just so you understand, the PB gives the basic.

actual salary = basic (~67 k) + grade pay (10k +) + DA (@ 60%) + HRA (~ 20 k) = 160k +

in addition he will get a vehicle for full time use, telephone bill, children's education expenses etc would be covered.

[nachiket]

^^That would be a fantastic package anywhere in India.

[Indranil]

just so you understand, the PB gives the basic.

actual salary = basic (~67 k) + grade pay (10k +) + DA (@ 60%) + HRA (~ 20 k) = 160k +

in addition he will get a vehicle for full time use, telephone bill, children's education expenses etc would be covered.

Now we are talking ... Alas I don't fit their criteria .

[vic]

Re James, I am in Delhi/India and not in software or IT

[Snehashis]

Kaveri turbofan programme seeks extension

The Kaveri turbofan engine programme has asked the government for an extension and more funds to overcome a fresh set of technological hurdles that have cropped up in the latest phase of flight tests. According to top sources, the extension involves at least 120 hours of additional flight testing. Interestingly, while the Kaveri is currently being flight-tested on a specially kitted out Ilyushin-76 engine test bed aircraft at the Gromov institute in Russia, the Kaveri extension programme envisages flight testing on a modified Tejas airframe, or similar aircraft. An official familiar with the extension proposal says one of the early prototype vehicles of the Tejas, which haven't been flying for years, could be modified to fly with the Kaveri engine.

As things stand, the Kaveri has completed close to 60 hours of flight-testing at the Gromov institute, the highlight of which was the use of a fully indigenous FADEC. However, the flight testing phase has also accentuated the engine's fundamental problems that have kept it in development for so long. Adding to a littany of woes, compounded by overall insufficient performance parameters, are problems in the turbine and fan assemblies, possibly structural issues as well. The IAF and Navy don't want to fly with an engine that puts out anything less than 90kN with reheat at sea-level — the Kaveri falls well short of that figure, and is the principle reason why the IAF and Navy have both gone in for GE engines on all foreseeable deliveries of the Tejas Mk.1 and Mk.2.

The IAF, predictably, is not happy with progress. An Air Commodore associated with liaison work on the Kaveri programme says, "The problem is no longer about delays and delivery, but about performance. The Kaveri engine in its present form cannot power fighter jets with modern performance requirements. It can be perhaps modified for other uses, but for fast jet performance, the Kaveri in its present form can be ruled out."

There have also been unforeseen delays in the joint engine effort by DRDO and Snecma for a robust 90kN turbofan engine, based on the M88 ECO core and meeting the minimum performance requirements of the IAF and Navy. Negotiations on technology sharing and intellectual property have taken the better part of the two years, though a top official confirmed that a contract between DRDO and Snecma is likely to be signed within the year. The joint effort, in effect, calls an end to the Kaveri K9 programme as it stands. What it does is propose to quickly build a 90kN thrust turbofan and offer it off the block to the IAF and Navy for their Tejas Mk.1s. The Kaveri-Snecma engine, in twin configuration, could also power India's advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), though that is still well into the future.

DRDO sources confirm that Snecma will transfer several key technologies as part of the joint engine programme, which include single crystal blades, bladed disk and EBPVD (electron beam plasma vapour deposit coating), all critical areas that the Kaveri engine has failed to find solutions to within the country, though not for lack of trying. Programme managers believe single crystal blade technology will be a major solution to one of the Kaveri's biggest problems — deformation of blades during testing as a result of high ambient temperatures. This has proved to be a severe limiting factor, considering that structurally solidified blades have structural integrity that comes nowhere close to single crystal structures. According to sources, it is negotiations over the modalities for single crystal blade technology that has taken so long, though the end is finally in sight. Several DRDO labs and the MDNL have tried for years to create an indigenous SCT solution, but so far without success.

The tie up with Snecma will launch the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) into an all-new league, and will involve modern forging, welding and casting techniques for the first time. Unlike the Kaveri K9 programme, the K10 programme (the official designation for the proposed effort with Snecma) will be professionally monitored from the outset, with hard timelines and investments. The work share model has been hammered down, and scientists are confident that they have extracted a competitive contract from the French. Initial reservations about sharing certain technologies were ironed out following the slew of military contracts that went France's way, the last being the substantive Mirage 2000 H/TH upgrade programme.

Almost the entire work force that has been dedicated so far to the Kaveri will be diverted to the K10 effort with Snecma. Scientists foresee challenges in absorbing the technology, but are confident that they will achieve goals once the contract is signed and the effort flagged off. A senior GTRE scientist says, "We have the will and the base technologies. We understand fully well what our shortcomings are, and are eager to deliver a full performance engine to the customer. Gone is the time when we can stay in the lab indefinitely saying we will come up with certain technologies by ourselves. The French will help us cut down on development time. And we will both deliver an engine that will power Indian aircraft. Everybody wins."

[Singha]

the MRCA deal if signed within 3 months can be seen as the lifesaver for the K10 and might result in a signing in later half as claimed above.

I dont think the french would be willing to even screw driver tot their crown jewels without being supremely 'fed' which the MRCA 40 yr deal guarantees.

its upto GTRE to use their last lifeline and transform in a productive and useful org if the K10 meets guidelines and is accepted into service .

[Singha]

methinks if EADS can hold a huge stake in Dassault, why cannot india seek small strategic stakes in such key french industries like dassault, safran, sagem, sextant, thales?

sure we are not gora, but we have the $$ and we have the operational need in terms of long term pipeline of projects...

the french would likely find us a far more useful partner than the italians or spanish who just want a free ride and dont buy the end product once developed!

[suryag]

All reports suggest that K-10 seems to be moving forward although at what pace we dont know. Sometime ago what the IAF was worried was the Shakti-isation of the kaveri engine with a k-10 name attached to. May be those concerns are not mitigated after so many sweetheart deals that the french have bagged from us(scorpene,m2k,rafale possibly)

[nash]

another thing is FADEC for kaveri K9 was tested and for K10, i assume, it would not took much time..also they are talking about quickly built 90 KN for Mk1 so they might have plan for higher thrust engine for MkII or AMCA....

[tejas]

WOW. This has to be a quid pro quo for the Rafale. But SCB, blisk and thermal barrier cotaing tech. who would have thunk it? If this ends India's dependence on foreigners for gas turbine engines, the Rafale at whatever price is worth every penny.

[Yogi_G]

I hope this time its for real and not like the "SCB tech transfer" we got with the MKIs.

[venkat_r]

It is a good idea to invest in the Sanecma for HAL - seeing that India is going to be multiple engines in the coming years for variety of fighters, it is better to diversify in this area. Currently only HAL is big enough to invest until some private firms come up to that level and begin investing in videshi companies.

It is going to be a very sweet deal for the french, as such investments ensure orders for almost all of its engines in the coming decades - If GOI bangs out a deal for say 30% of the company as a part of the MMRCA and Kaveri deals, it would ensure there would be no engine drought and no more delays in the future.

[Cain Marko]

The joint effort, in effect, calls an end to the Kaveri K9 programme as it stands. What it does is propose to quickly build a 90kN thrust turbofan and offer it off the block to the IAF and Navy for their Tejas Mk.1s. The Kaveri-Snecma engine, in twin configuration, could also power India's advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), though that is still well into the future.

THIS jingojano is the need of the hour imhvo. Aim for a 90kN Kaveri-M88 for the Tejas mk1 - at least 40, and may be 100. A little lighter Tejas and a little increase in thrust should make it a nice little bird to have.

[vic]

Can I ask what is the salary of Director equivalent of Snecma? Anyway, we should involve pvt sector to absorb technology being purchased from Snecma, so that they can hire and retain people

[Kailash]

This is amazing news!! With the transfer of key manufacturing technologies, it should be possible for us to manufacture (also reverse engineer) any foreign engine. Supposing the Russians/Americans cut off their engine sales or withhold spares, we would still be able to continue producing copies which are near equal in performance (though with some major effort).

Wondering what is the exact thrust figures achieved by K9, and the difference in thrust if we could apply the french technology to manufacture the K9 as is?

Most importantly, this ToT should spawn diversity in design. Now that we are getting the materials, should not be afraid to create and test new designs. I just hope GTRE is getting all lacking tech transferred.

[nachiket]

I hope this time its for real and not like the "SCB tech transfer" we got with the MKIs.

We never got SCB tot with the Al-31 engines. That was something we jingoes were dreaming would happen when HAL made claims of manufacturing the MKI including the engines from scratch.

In any case it is too late for the Kaveri to power any LCAs now. GTRE should aim to get the new engine to be developed with Snecma's help completely ready before the first flight of the AMCA, even if the AMCA prototypes are powered by foreign engines. The production version of the AMCA should hopefully fly with two Kaveris only. A 100kn class engine will be necessary though.

[Rahul M]

F414 gives 98kN. we need to aim for 100kN with the new kaveri.

[Will]

I hope this time its for real and not like the "SCB tech transfer" we got with the MKIs.

We never got SCB tot with the Al-31 engines. That was something we jingoes were dreaming would happen when HAL made claims of manufacturing the MKI including the engines from scratch.

In any case it is too late for the Kaveri to power any LCAs now. GTRE should aim to get the new engine to be developed with Snecma's help completely ready before the first flight of the AMCA, even if the AMCA prototypes are powered by foreign engines. The production version of the AMCA should hopefully fly with two Kaveris only. A 100kn class engine will be necessary though.

Wasnt the SCB technology on the table for the AL-31 along withthe MKI deal? It was some babu that decided that it would be too expansive and decided not to go for it.

[SaiK]

Almost the entire work force that has been dedicated so far to the Kaveri will be diverted to the K10 effort with Snecma. Scientists foresee challenges in absorbing the technology, but are confident that they will achieve goals once the contract is signed and the effort flagged off. A senior GTRE scientist says, "We have the will and the base technologies. We understand fully well what our shortcomings are, and are eager to deliver a full performance engine to the customer. Gone is the time when we can stay in the lab indefinitely saying we will come up with certain technologies by ourselves. The French will help us cut down on development time. And we will both deliver an engine that will power Indian aircraft. Everybody wins."

I disagree with GTRE.. and I wish they get reorged. slam them for not taking a monotonic approach towards providing solutions to such issues, especially one considers deformation of blades at high ambient temps.

A baby gromov is what needed for the reorged-gtre, and not snecma. All these new technology at purchase will not solve our dependency problem at all.. unless, we reorg gtre, and get them going on a strong solo 100kN wala all by ourselves. If the team can't do it, kick them out with a new team who will look the engineering aspects as an engineer would do. It is not impossible.. but it is easily possible to give up!

Everybody wins!.. jee.. I just can't hear a GTRE spokesman saying this.. shaming us.