Indian Army : News and Discussion

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 04 Mar 2012 09:04

Jhujar wrote:http://www.samachar.com/Lt-Gen-Bikram-S ... fjhed.html
Lt Gen Bikram Singh will be next Army chief

The five apparent victims of this maneuvering (besides, of course, the larger organizational and national interests) -

Brigadier Padam Budhwar
Brigadier MM Chaudhary
Major-General Shujan Chatterjee
Major-General AK Singh
Major-General Ravi Arora

After working out various permutations and combinations, JJ Singh discovered that VK Singh, who was a Corps Commander by then, would be the obvious choice to succeed Kapoor, but if his tenure could be curtailed to two years, the way could be cleared for Bikram Singh, the present chief of the Eastern Command, to take over in May 2012. At that time, Bikram Singh was not a
front- runner as there were other officers with better credentials ahead of him in the succession pyramid. But they could be sidelined with a bit of deft tweaking. Those to be neutralised included Brigadiers Padam Budhwar and MM Chaudhary, and Majors-General Shujan Chatterjee, AK Singh and Ravi Arora, a gold medalist from the same batch as Bikram Singh.

http://thestatesman.net/index.php?optio ... 7&catid=38

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 04 Mar 2012 09:24

Well the speed with which it was announced, clearly points to premeditated selection and that Govt was in a hurry to pre-empt any further challenge to the Choice. While , in the current situation , BKS would be the senior most and the obvious choice, how this choice has been reached raises serious and uncomfortable questions. Unfortunately , for all his merits, tenure of BKS would be known as Tenure of the usurper.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 04 Mar 2012 10:37

Knowledgeable people should keep list of deals approved during VKS tenure. It will come handy to compare, contrast and judge on how fast procurements will be approved during Bikram Singh period and the size & value of such deals which coincide with the period leading to next Parl election.

Even in MMRCA selection, 'things' happened, you believe it or not. There will be repercussions in the future when this Gov no more in power.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 04 Mar 2012 12:15

The dice was loaded against Gen VKS when he angered powerful people whist doing his duty towards his country

1. Angered MMS by not agreeing to a Siachen withdrawal by IA
2. Angered PC by not agreeing to let the army get dragged into internal security duties (against the Maoists)
3. Angered the NC and its ally the Congress by not agreeing to withdraw the AFSPA which would have left the army at the mercy of sundry anti-India "human rights organizations"
4. Angered all those involved in the Sukhna land scam

When even the SC declined to provide him justice what can he fight on?

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 04 Mar 2012 15:00

The existing civil military set up needs a revamp. The bureaucracy including those in uniform have to give way for any change to happen. As leading commentators say the Age Scam imbroglio has precluded the possibility of any change for some time to come.

The creeping barrage

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 04 Mar 2012 15:19

I think, what is also becoming apparent is that JJ Singh was not in this alone. The entire succession plan had the blessings of the PMO. For that is the only way the defense of this plan makes sense. JJ Singh's side of the story is still not out.

Choosing the chief is the executive's prerogative, no doubt about that. Is it appropriate for a government to have a succession plan for 2012, designed in 2006? Also, this plan would likely be in place, were a government to change given that seniority is the convention, once in command.

VKS has done great service by exposing this corrupt practice. I feel, if he puts in papers, it will further embarrass the government.

My skepticism comers from the knowledge that all this, at the end of the day matters little at the polls.

kunalverma · Post by **kunalverma** » 04 Mar 2012 15:49

Better to go down fighting rather than helplessly watch the complete rape of the system. Cannot believe just how insensitive and arrogant the system has become.
http://www.satyamev-jayate.com

Memorandum to the President.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 04 Mar 2012 19:23

kunalverma :

Please request the authors of the petition to allow non-military citizens to sign the petition.

Citizen soldiers, in very large numbers, will come forward to join their military comrades and sign the petition.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 04 Mar 2012 19:31

chaanakya and ShauryaT : well put.

merlin : correct assessment.

It is indeed a dismal scenario that we are witnessing. Sad days for the Republic.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 04 Mar 2012 19:44

It seems that MoD and Raksha Mantri have decided to stick to 1950 as CoAS's DoB. Furthermore, the PM has been taken into confidence and a decision has been taken at the highest echelons of Congress Party (govt.) to support the MoD. I would be pleasantly surprised to see the overrule of Executive's "decision" by the President (a ruling party nominee).

Unfortunate but true story.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 04 Mar 2012 20:06

^^^ I don't think there is any bar on non-military persons from signing the charter. In fact many from civil walk of life have signed, from what i can see in the list on the website.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 04 Mar 2012 20:20

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/indian-army- ... 061-3.html

What is happening? Bhaiphor the press is carrying such news saar! If enemy come to know we have two days stock of ammunition, they will plan for three day war! Not done saar, we need more ammunition!

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 04 Mar 2012 20:24

Jaybhatt wrote:kunalverma :

Please request the authors of the petition to allow non-military citizens to sign the petition.

Citizen soldiers, in very large numbers, will come forward to join their military comrades and sign the petition.

I would love to sign this, I am an ex-serviceman from a past life!

jai · Post by **jai** » 04 Mar 2012 21:20

chaanakya wrote:I think , it deserves posting in detail

From dna link posted by Kunal
......
Gen Singh said the apex court order has created more confusion, without addressing the main issue. It talks of a statutory complaint being divided into two parts--the process of decision-making on the one hand and maintainability on the other.

"The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has argued that since the decision has been taken by them to peg my Year of Birth as 1950, I must accept this regardless.This goes against the principles of natural justice," Gen Singh said.

Asked about the impression that he had lost the battle and that the Supreme Court had ruled against him, he said it was a strange situation.

While the apex court was dealing with the case there was a parallel minute-by-minute interpretation of the proceedings in the media.Breaking news on TV and newspaper headlines the next day delivered their own verdict which declared that 'the General has lost the battle'.

But, he said, when the order came out on February 15, the media did not not report it and everyone missed its import. "It is an innocuous order that leaves recognition of the DoB to the competent authority based on records.The media was reporting obiter dicta in a highly exaggerated manner," he said.

To a question about his decision to withdraw the petition in the court gave an impression that he was satisfied with what the court had to say, Gen Singh said after his statutory complaint was rejected the Defence Ministry on December 30 last, he had moved the court.

On February 3, the court questioned the decision-making process which led to it being turned down and opined that it went against the principles of natural justice.

On February 10, the Attorney General withdrew the Defence Ministry's order against the statutory complaint and tacitly admitted that the actual DoB was 1951 and that the ministry was opposing it only "on a matter of principle".

Gen Singh said after that there was noting else to be said in court especially since the judges had also indicated that the court did not want to get into the actual date of birth.

"Now, unless the Defence Ministry's decision-making process is spelt out so as to explain the rationale behind still pegging my YoB as 1950, how can I challenge it. I therefore withdrew my petition and have decided to wait for the MoD to give its reasons afresh," he said.

He said it is important to put in place systems that ensure that such cases were never repeated in future.

Asked about the views of his daughter who wrote in an article pointing at the hand of former chief Gen J J Singh in the DoB controversy, Gen Singh gave no direct answer except to say that the problem got aggravated when the Defence Ministry chose to "endorse this line without going into why this was being done".

Q: Are you saying that the 2006 decision (taken by J J Singh) was illegal?

A: It has its ramifications. Even I say that I don't contest it, it cannot be implemented because the SC order does not say anything about the legality of two different dates of birth.

To a question he was looked upon as someone standing up to the establishment, giving as good as he got, Gen Singh said, "being Chief of the Indian Army does not insulate me from public opinion and I am aware that many feel that I was wrong in taking the fight to the MoD".

He said the tendency after reaching senior ranks is to avoid rocking the boat. "But if I, as the chief, did not stand up for what is correct, what sort of a message would I be sending to the rank and file," he said.

Similarly, he said, that despite the overwhelming opinion he should resign, it was necessary for him to stay the course.

"The SC has sidestepped the issue. But it certainly does not clear the way for any illegal order to be given to the Army. Had I resigned, it would have been a self-goal and in the long run, against the interest of the organisation," Gen Singh said.
Judgement is a matter of interpretation and perception. Here perception has become more important. It was created to put pressure on VKS to concede defeat. I am happy that he has called a spade a spade. Not leaving even SC in his stride. I hope he is not targeted for his comments on SC. Right now unless a fresh legal challenge is mounted ( which seems remote right now) MOD would take him as retired on the day.

Happy to see a true man among scoundrels.

I would keenly watch what commissions do some of these "decision makers" who passed verdict join after their retirement.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 04 Mar 2012 22:42

Video - Under the shadow of an avalanche

An NDTV special report on what is it like for our jawans to work in extreme conditions - under the shadow of an avalanche every day.

I didn't know that IA carried out patrols at such high altitudes during the night.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 05 Mar 2012 00:08

Has Lt. Gen. Bikram Singh served in Armoured Corps? The color of his turban is black in the photograph on Livefist http://livefist.blogspot.in/2012/03/lt- ... -army.html. I know I know he is from Sikh LI but a black turban also denotes Armoured since Infantry officers wear Olive Green berets or turbans

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 05 Mar 2012 00:11

IRIC Gen. Sundarji had commanded an Armoured Div even though he was from Mahar... and he used wear a black beret...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Mar 2012 01:16

I'm afraid that mon general VKS in his "Outlook" interview has yet again shot himself in the foot.He had his opportunity at the SC and blinked.To now criticise the SC's judgement ,"I will not resign",blah,blah,appears to be a "grapes are sour" attitude.Whatever the merits of his case,even if he was right all along about the DOB,and that there is a conspiracy going on to anoint his successor,his first TV interview and then this cover feature,while still in office,is a serious lapse of judgement on his part.It gives him the reputation of being of a whinger.He should've fought his case within the IA system itself or in the courts "to the death",or resigned much earlier.There is a famous saying by the Japanese philosopher-shogun Yoritomo Tashi,"if speech is like jade,then silence is like a diamond".

Now that Gen. BKS has been officially appointed after a vetting of his family connections was also done,whatever the earlier controversies,let us move on and welcome his appointment and wish him well,in the hope that he maintains and upholds the highest traditions of the Indian Army which we proudly believe is the best in the world, and not be found wanting if ever the nation is subjected to a time of crisis.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Mar 2012 02:05

let us move on and welcome his appointment and wish him well,in the hope that he maintains and upholds the highest traditions of the Indian Army

too late for that - he is seriously compromised and is beholden to vested interests, the same ones you rail against(with some justification) in other threads

plus he was not known for any great skills unlike a Ravi arora.

the best one can hope is his era passes over quickly.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Mar 2012 02:36

Gen.VKS has not exactly covered himself in glory either.Had he not entered in one of his application forms aeons ago a differing DOB himself (there are three early forms which he personally filled up in his own handwriting,one with a "1950" DOB.There is no "tampering" at all,any competent graphologist can prove the same),there would've been no issue at all.He had his chance at the SC but blinked. In fact,the pressure now will be upon his successor to maintain and uphold the highest traditions of the IA and deliver the goods ,especially as there has been so much of controversy.He will be under constant scrutiny by the media and within the service ,waiting to see if he places "service before self,or self before service"! Whether we like it or not,he is the next chief.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Mar 2012 02:55

what media scrutiny?? If most of the media could be purchased as we saw recently why can't they be purchased again??

am sure IT can be asked to write a glowing article on how brilliant BKS in time

after all all they have now is the The return of the Siren

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 05 Mar 2012 02:56

Government examining new charges against Army chief Gen VK Singh

NEW DELHI: The government may have ended speculation over the next Army chief but the last may not have been heard in the standoff between the government and Army chief Gen VK Singh in his all-out battle to correct his age record.

An anonymous, detailed complaint received by the government in recent days has several allegations against the Army chief, including possible misuse of off-the-air interceptors to listen in on phone conversations in the national capital. The complaint also accuses Gen Singh of appointing several officers belonging to the Rajput Regiment to many important posts in the Army.

A senior government source said they were looking at the allegations that at least two off-the-air interceptors were deployed illegally in the national capital to listen in phone conversations. The complaint says the deployment was part of an effort to eavesdrop on conversations between key people who may have decided the government strategy on Gen Singh's age issue.

According to information in the complaint, which is being examined, the interceptors were acquired from Ukraine purportedly for counter-insurgency operations in Jammu and Kashmir and Northeast. But the equipment was not deployed there, but in the national capital illegally.

Sources said the intelligence bureau is looking into the complaint and verifying if indeed the Army detailed the interceptors in the national capital. If established, the allegations would further strain the already damaged relationship between Gen Singh and the government.

Sources said the complaint also talks about a new division created in the Army headquarters, headed by a colonel rank officer of the military intelligence, after Gen Singh took over as Army chief. The charter of this division's duties is not clear, but it holds widespread powers and is accused of being behind the deployment of the interceptors.

The complaint says the division may have mounted two interceptors, which can listen in on mobile phone conversations in a three-kilometer radius, on private vehicles and deployed them in the capital.

The complaint with the government also accuses Gen Singh of posting several officers of Rajput Regiment, to which he belongs, in several crucial posts in the Army. Murmurs of nepotism have been swirling in Army circles for some time but now it is part of the written complaint.

The complaint also talks about Gen Singh's efforts to use media to fight his age battle.

A source said they would rather let Gen Singh 'run his Army', and wouldn't interfere with decisions concerning internal issues of the force. However, the question of passive interceptors being deployed in New Delhi was a matter of grave concern, he said.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 05 Mar 2012 03:12

Philip wrote:Gen.VKS has not exactly covered himself in glory either.Had he not entered in one of his application forms aeons ago a differing DOB himself (there are three early forms which he personally filled up in his own handwriting,one with a "1950" DOB.There is no "tampering" at all,any competent graphologist can prove the same),there would've been no issue at all.He had his chance at the SC but blinked. In fact,the pressure now will be upon his successor to maintain and uphold the highest traditions of the IA and deliver the goods ,especially as there has been so much of controversy.He will be under constant scrutiny by the media and within the service ,waiting to see if he places "service before self,or self before service"! Whether we like it or not,he is the next chief.

oh! c'mon...you may criticise the handling of the issue now but to talk of 1950 DoB in own handwriting is disingenuous. As per MS and AG records it was 1951 until his promotion to Lt General. So what is all this about it being 1950 in own handwriting.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 05 Mar 2012 05:59

An anonymous, detailed complaint received by the government

Generally anonymous complaints are not entertained by the government. Unless its some special case.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 05 Mar 2012 06:33

Babus and MOD have successfully made a mockery of Indian Army and specially the post of army chief.

What they are doing right now is not only degrading for the forces but will have serious unforeseen ripple effects in future.

Hands down no one can win with politicians in BS.

kunalverma · Post by **kunalverma** » 05 Mar 2012 07:16

SagarAg wrote:
An anonymous, detailed complaint received by the government
Generally anonymous complaints are not entertained by the government. Unless its some special case.

The operative word here is 'generally' ...

Right now the strategy seems to be to let fly a few allegations (generally through IT and its associate channels), then officially deny that any such thing ever happened, but make sure the media goes on and on.

Yes, the Memorandum is being signed by non-Service people as well. The intro makes it clear that the site is not soliciting support, but simply creating a platform to stand up and be counted.

Philip, you take two legal people cats and show them a single sentence, they'll split hairs and interpret it differently. The underlying point of the Outlook interview seems to be once the MoD withdrew its rejection of the Statutory Complaint, there was nothing left in the petition. I really don't know what the hell was VKS's lawyer doing sitting in court after that for the next two hours was just drama baazi! The Order of the 15th, ignored by all and sundry, actually confines itself to the opening minutes only.

I don't know the link but Rajinder Puri has in the Statesman written a telling piece on the SC's handling of the VKS issue.

Basically, GOI has yet to address the DOB issue. How can they announce BS as the next chief without legally answering the Statutory Complaint. At best at the present point of time they can hope that VKS goes in for a 'voluntary retirement'. In case he doesn't, then they'll have to sack him, for which I suspect the annonymus letters are laying the groundwork.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 05 Mar 2012 07:45

Philip, Kunal: here it is http://www.thestatesman.net/index.php?o ... 8&catid=39

And I reiterate that as per MS's own records the DoB used for lt gen. position was 1951. All argument of/for 1950 is to get him out early. While the Arny chief is not spared the IIM graduates come out with 1-cr salaries. I wonder how many will opt for the ever-reducing pool of officers.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Mar 2012 07:50

thankss viv

Sad part is Phillip who goes hammer and tongs on MMS everywhere else seems to let this one slide - perhaps the most damaging act done by this Govt

It helped stabilise and perpetuate a government that is spreading ruin in the nation every single day it remains in office.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 05 Mar 2012 10:04

As the days are going by, its becoming more and more evident that firstly this Govt. has too many shameless and vindictive people in its midst. Secondly, VKS should have had a better game plan - most important rule is that you fight to win. No glory ever for the loser, especially when dealing with shameless and vindictive people. Jo jeeta wohi sikandar

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 05 Mar 2012 10:06

jo jeeta PR game wohi sikandar (as per some analysis Puru won and not Sikandar for example).

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 05 Mar 2012 10:19

It is never late. I suggest VKS should finish his business as COAS and resign one day early ie, 30 May 2012. On 31 May 2012, he should file a criminal complaint against the entire coterie, naming each one of them in rank and person. The question arises as to how he is going to prove it? I can only hope he has done his homework in the 24 months he has been in office.

As far as the unanimous complaint goes, there will be many in the days to come. There will be persons who will switch camps and there will be those moved in by the new incumbent. Some may even put their signatures and names. Business as usual.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 05 Mar 2012 11:19

A New Low

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 05 Mar 2012 12:05

Philip : not only are you disingenuous, but your overall stance is perilously close to being perverse and underhand.
A totally distorted mindset.

It's a shame that people like you can masquerade on this site and spread disinformation and canards about the present
COAS Gen. V.K. Singh, a patriot, a gentleman and a soldiers' soldier, if ever we have had one in these shores in recent years.

You are joining hands with a degenerate mafia that is ruining the last bastion protecting our country - the Indian armed forces.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 05 Mar 2012 12:46

sanjeevpunj, kunalverma and other friends :

I am delighted to inform you that the Petition site (http://www.satyamev-jayate.com) is now offering non-military persons the opportunity to sign the petition. It has changed its options on the signature page. My thanks to them.

I have, of course signed, and other citizen soldiers can now do so.

Did kunalverma play a role in facilitating this welcome change ? Bully for him.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 05 Mar 2012 15:59

Expect to hear news about how Gen VKS used milli intel for his own purposes and something about links with arms dealers.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 05 Mar 2012 16:00

shyamd wrote:Expect to hear news about how Gen VKS used milli intel for his own purposes and something about links with arms dealers.

Yes, the Congress main channels in the press are already carrying the news.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 05 Mar 2012 16:27

Weird because this was part of the release on the AKA bugging issue. They went in denial. Now resurfacing again.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 05 Mar 2012 20:12

Gen Bikram's appointment: J&K hopes to clinch AFSPA issue now

...
A new mood of high optimism spawned after the announcement of the appointment of Eastern Command chief Lt. Gen. Bikram Singh as the next army chief. It has spurred the hopes of the Omar Abdullah government that there would be flexibility in the army over the AFSPA issue.

The government here hopes that the new army chief would be flexible on the AFSPA issue, government sources told Hindustan Times, after their stiff stand-off with the outgoing Chief of Army Staff Gen V K Singh over the issue.

For the Omar Abdullah government, Gen. VK Singh was 'rigid'.

The chief minister who had hosted breakfast for the army chief in November last year had failed to break the ice on the recall of AFSPA from some areas of Jammu and Kashmir, where army had neither been deployed nor conducted operations for years together.

Thereafter, there has been little or no communication between the state government and the army since then.
...
In fact, PDP had echoed, what Omar had said in a statement in the aftermath of his uncle Mustafa Kamal's diatribe against the army after a couple of grenade attacks in October itself, that the matter should be discussed with all, including army.

Sources in the government made it clear that they would wait for the change of the guard at the army chief's level before resuming talks on the AFSPA .

"The policy issues are not guided by these changes, a policy is a policy", said a senior army officer on condition of anonymity.

But the perception and the tone and tenor of the dialogue can change with the change of the individuals at the top, according to sources in the state government.

...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 05 Mar 2012 20:26

Signed the petition.

Philip

This was concocted and contrived controversy by certified crooked characters of first order. When Govt gave promotions basing 1951 as DOB then matter was settled and it was sought to be unsettled by creating a controversy by vested interests. I have , now, no doubt at all that this was done to protect line of succession drawn in 2006 when this controversy also took birth. Prior to that there was nothing. SC has indeed not taken any side which in effect means taking side of the crooked. By trying to malign him you are not being honorable enough on this forum.

In times to come , we would see may attempts to vilify the Honorable General by dishonorable persons. Controversies would be created and the might of the Govt would be brought to bear on the Gen. But rest assured BKS would remain usurper and would not cover himself in glory unless , of course , he goes on to win a war against China before 2014 and that war seems unlikely to happen.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 05 Mar 2012 20:41

army issues statement naming Lt Gen Tejinder Singh, ex DG DIA for snoop on RM story. Says officer is Adarsh allottee.

army says serving disgruntled officers of MI worked with Lt Gen Tejinder Singh, retd DG DIA. These officers to face action

Gaurav C. Sawant twitter feed