Small Arms Thread

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 18 Feb 2012 12:05

Victor wrote:
shiv wrote:..I think that there must be some requirement for this sort of weapon that we are missing -
This is the right way to look at it IMO too. For a force like BSF, the only utility of a 9mm SMG that I can think of is policing well-subdued rear areas where the local population is unarmed and overt show of weapons is not desirable. Truly doubt the Berettas are meant for border duty, even for drivers and officers.

Victor ji , are you saying that submachine guns are for use only in well subdued areas ?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 18 Feb 2012 12:14

vic wrote:BSF will operate in Civilian areas which/when are facing Terrorist threats or armed insurgencies, which are "military" in nature and 9mm SMG weapons are inadequate for the purpose. It is well recoganised that (apart from very limited situations) 9mm SMG are for self protection or emergency use. If you look at USA it uses 9mm SMG for very limited role like giving it to pilots

BSF has also inducted it for limited use only.30,000 SMGs corresponds to less than 10% of the force deployed being issued one.There is a definite requirement for SMGs for BSF and indeed most of the other security forces.There are many situations where SMGs can be used , including on border.

However I have a serious disagreement with the vendor selection.Beretta is no longer a company known for quality.Quality in the context of firearms is mostly about reliability.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 18 Feb 2012 13:32

darshhan wrote: Victor ji , are you saying that submachine guns are for use only in well subdued areas ?

Darshan ji, from what I have read SMG was designed to be a short range “trench sweeper” for combat troops in WW2 to complement bolt action rifles and LMGs. It is still very good at that role no doubt. However, that is not the role of the BSF but of the army and the job is now taken over by more powerful assault rifles. Its current role is strictly covert action, self protection and deterrence more in keeping with police duties. If the BSF needed to operate in hostile environments where the bad guys had Aks say, it would be unacceptable foolishness to rely on 9mm SMGs. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that we probably have a very specific need for the Beretta and it is likely not within our borders.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Feb 2012 13:55

The info on this particular model of Beretta is that it is hardly an assault rifle. It is the military version of a civilian weapon CX 4 "pistol caliber carbine aimed at the sporting, personal defense and law enforcement markets." (Wiki)

A related news item is
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap ... 10308.aspx

March 8, 2011: India's Border Security Force is replacing 34,500 MP5 9mm machine pistols with the Beretta Mx4 9mm Storm Carbine. The Mx4 is a militarized version of the Cx4, which weighs 2.57 kg (5.75 pounds), unloaded. The Cx4 can use pistol magazines, or its own 20 round magazine. The Cx4 is 75.4cm (29.7 inches) long, with a 42cm (16.6 inch) barrel. There is a rail on the top of the Cx4 for mounting scopes (day or night vision), laser aiming device or flashlight. There is another rail underneath, forward of the trigger, for mounting a grip, laser or flashlight. The MP5s weigh about the same, but have a shorter barrel. The Mx4, with a scope, is pretty accurate out to a hundred meters, and automatic fire is accurate out to 200 meters. The Cx4 has a reputation, among the many police and security personnel who use it, of reliability and ease of use and handling.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 18 Feb 2012 15:37

Was this really selected after a months if not years long testing process like an Indian weapon would have faced, if not why? Why has the order not been canceled? (it would have been, if it were an Indian weapon or at the very least put on hold). I remember how some in the BSF were eager to criticize and malign the ALH Dhruv when some problems came around (which i believe were due to lack of proper servicing), why are these voices silent when a FOREIGN company has supplied faulty guns. Where is the demand for a redesign? Are Indian weapons producers every going to be treated with the same consideration and tolerance that these people show to foreigners?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 18 Feb 2012 15:48

Arun Menon wrote:Was this really selected after a months if not years long testing process like an Indian weapon would have faced, if not why? Why has the order not been canceled? (it would have been, if it were an Indian weapon or at the very least put on hold). I remember how some in the BSF were eager to criticize and malign the ALH Dhruv when some problems came around (which i believe were due to lack of proper servicing), why are these voices silent when a FOREIGN company has supplied faulty guns. Where is the demand for a redesign? Are Indian weapons producers every going to be treated with the same consideration and tolerance that these people show to foreigners?

Arun ji , It is media which is responsible.Maybe some BSF officers were actually criticizing or want to criticize Beretta but media chooses to ignore it.Whereas in the case of ALH it was too ready to show some BSF officer's reactions.After all BSF did come out with the report of how the weapons performed in the tests.Dunno how rigorous the process was.For a company like Beretta the process should be doubly rigorous.

One more point though.Rigor should be measured in the no. of rounds fired during testing in varied conditions and not in years.If you start talking of stretching the firearms testing for years , then guess who is the loser. It is the trooper on duty.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 18 Feb 2012 17:48

darshhan wrote: Arun ji , It is media which is responsible.Maybe some BSF officers were actually criticizing or want to criticize Beretta but media chooses to ignore it.Whereas in the case of ALH it was too ready to show some BSF officer's reactions.After all BSF did come out with the report of how the weapons performed in the tests.Dunno how rigorous the process was.For a company like Beretta the process should be doubly rigorous.

One more point though.Rigor should be measured in the no. of rounds fired during testing in varied conditions and not in years.If you start talking of stretching the firearms testing for years , then guess who is the loser. It is the trooper on duty.

You are right. Even if there are some characters like the DGMF (Arjun saga) ready to shoot their mouth off dissing local gems, there has to be a slavish and traitorous media ready lap it up like lick-spittles. Its high time we had at least one nationalistic news channel.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 19 Feb 2012 03:14

Victor wrote: Darshan ji, from what I have read SMG was designed to be a short range “trench sweeper” for combat troops in WW2 to complement bolt action rifles and LMGs.

<Nitpick>It was designed for WW-I, not WW-II.</Nitpick> First practical submachine gun in military use was the MP-18 used by the Germans in 1918. Incidentally, the term "submachine gun" was used originally as a marketing term for the legendary thompson a.k.a. tommy gun. Click here for some details about the development of the tommy gun.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 22 Feb 2012 10:40

From the LA times:
Gun culture spreads in India

Government worker Deep Sidhu sits in his living room feeling the weight of the family's Luger, a German World War II-era pistol, in his hands. Guns are in the blood, he says beneath a painting of a man toting a shotgun.

"This forgiveness-peace idea will only make Pakistanis think we're soft targets," he says.

"All that Gandhi stuff is for tourists," adds his father, Raja K.S. Sidhu. "They should go off to Varanasi, see the holy cows."

As gun culture spreads, local governments have offered to fast-track firearms licenses if men have vasectomies.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Feb 2012 11:39

1:1 equal equal - lose one gun but gain another

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Feb 2012 12:31

Hain ? What is the relation between the two ? Btw Vasectomy does not adversely affect the level of testosterone in the body; or does it ?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 22 Feb 2012 18:05

arey you all missed this

Bank manager Jagdeep Singh likes to tuck his licensed pistol under his shirt on car trips over lonely roads, having used it successfully in the early 1990s to fight off several attackers.

"I have two good-looking daughters," he says, "another reason I keep a gun."

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Feb 2012 18:10

negi wrote:Hain ? What is the relation between the two ? Btw Vasectomy does not adversely affect the level of testosterone in the body; or does it ?

But removes the ability to shoot important components in the liquid ammunition of one gun.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 22 Feb 2012 18:44

From what I remember, the vasectomy-gun licence scheme was introduced 3-4 years ago in rural Western UP which has a thriving gun culture. As an innovative way to curb population growth, the Govt offered to give gun licences to men who underwent vasectomies. Guns are the pride of men in those areas, so the Govt came up with that scheme. A later report mentioned that these men were now protesting, because the Govt reneged their promise afterwards and did not give them gun licences.

Kannan · Post by **Kannan** » 22 Feb 2012 21:05

Hopefully the licenses come with rigorous training, otherwise they're adding a hazard!

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 22 Feb 2012 21:59

atreya wrote:From what I remember, the vasectomy-gun licence scheme was introduced 3-4 years ago in rural Western UP which has a thriving gun culture. As an innovative way to curb population growth, the Govt offered to give gun licences to men who underwent vasectomies. Guns are the pride of men in those areas, so the Govt came up with that scheme. A later report mentioned that these men were now protesting, because the Govt reneged their promise afterwards and did not give them gun licences.

It was not western UP but Chambal valley.I doubt if population growth is very high in western UP except for muslim population there.And guns are definitely not a pride of men residing in Western UP although a huge percentage is armed.Most of the arms bearing public goes for concealed carry handguns.It is a different matter altogether that they do not care much for the licenses and that is the way it should be.We are citizens and not subjects.

In chambal however guns are definitely a matter of pride.You can actually see a lot of people carrying their long arms with them.

By the way Chambal valley encompasses parts of Rajasthan,MP and UP.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 22 Feb 2012 22:08

darshhan wrote:
atreya wrote:From what I remember, the vasectomy-gun licence scheme was introduced 3-4 years ago in rural Western UP which has a thriving gun culture. As an innovative way to curb population growth, the Govt offered to give gun licences to men who underwent vasectomies. Guns are the pride of men in those areas, so the Govt came up with that scheme. A later report mentioned that these men were now protesting, because the Govt reneged their promise afterwards and did not give them gun licences.
It was not western UP but Chambal valley.I doubt if population growth is very high in western UP except for muslim population there.And guns are definitely not a pride of men residing in Western UP although a huge percentage is armed.Most of the arms bearing public goes for concealed carry handguns.It is a different matter altogether that they do not care much for the licenses and that is the way it should be.We are citizens and not subjects.

In chambal however guns are definitely a matter of pride.You can actually see a lot of people carrying their long arms with them.

By the way Chambal valley encompasses parts of Rajasthan,MP and UP.

You are right, it did cross my mind when I was typing it. It is Chambal, not Western UP. Sorry for the mistake!

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 23 Feb 2012 04:07

ArmenT wrote:From the LA times:
Gun culture spreads in India
<snip>
some excerpts-
Despite tough controls on weapons, Indians own about 40 million guns, the second-highest number in the world. Of those, 85% are unregistered Saturday-night specials involved in 90% of firearm homicides. That said, there are only 3 guns for every 100 people in India, compared with 89 guns per 100 Americans, the world leaders, according to gunpolicy.org.
(important difference to know)
India also remains a far less violent society than the U.S., at 2.78 homicides per 100,000 people, compared with 4.96 Americans per 100,000. Indian gun lovers remain convinced, however, that the country needs more firearms given its low police-to-population ratio, among the world's worst.

( we should all be aware of these aspects)

India has a history of gun producing in the crucibles of hindi heartland- nowadays of UP and surrounding areas. IIRC India never had a ban on gun holdings. It was banned after 1857 war of independence against briturds. They banned gun holdings amongst Indians. They literally shit in their pants.
This has been continued to this day.
Even today many are locally made guns made of local stuff. This has been curtailed since briturds but never completely destroyed.

other amazing things are -
1) despite a low police population ratio, India has one of the lowest(if not lowest crime rates) in the world. westerners are found of saying not many report it as is their wont.
2) lowest ratio of criminals to population in prisons,
3) More respectful society which make criminals live and do well in the society. despite the contrary projected in movies and by westerners.
4) ditto with crimes against women.

Numbers will always be stacked against us due to huge populations but ratio shows it all.

people may believe it or not it all boils down to the culture- live and let live as living beings which is prevalent in our culture.

koti · Post by **koti** » 23 Feb 2012 20:26

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7144/pds ... foldab.jpg

Name: It is called the PDC or Pre-Discharged Chamber.

Operation: When the bullet passes the gas-outlet on top, some of the gas goes into the gas-pipe on the top of the barrel and pushes the piston back. Now, the bullet travels further forward and part of the remaining expanding gas gets into the PDC under the barrel and expands (and cools down due to Joule-Thompson effect). As the bullet exits the barrel, there is a sudden reduction in pressure at the barrel end and the the gas inside the PDC is sucked out.

Purpose: Reduction of the temperature, and consequently, the flash of the exhaust gas following discharge of the bullet from the barrel; the flash being otherwise extremely noticeable in short barreled firearms.

Patent: Yes. Owned by OFB.

Source: My 'friend', a junior employee at RFI today asked his 'sir' and actually met one of the scientists who perfected this device.

Link
Can anyone verify the veracity of this?

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 24 Feb 2012 10:08

^^^^
Interesting... The description sounds somewhat similar to a gas-delayed blowback action, except that they're not using it to delay the opening of the breech. Remember though, a lot of the flash is caused by the unburnt particles of propellant igniting outside the barrel, not just due to hot exhaust gases. That's why short barreled firearms exhibit flashes more because the propellant doesn't have a chance to completely burn inside the barrel.

koti · Post by **koti** » 24 Feb 2012 11:36

Yes.
But the significant advantage of PDC IMO is its cooling functionality. It can increase the rate of fire and the barrel change problem.
I wonder if this mechanism is being considered for Insas LMG and other LMG/MMG's in operation. Could save a lot of time be delaying the mandatory barrel changes in firefight.

koti · Post by **koti** » 24 Feb 2012 11:37

Can anyone tell us how to verify the existing patents over the web.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2012 18:43

considering each round of a UBGL needs to be hand fed ... it is of any use in a fast moving mobile battle situation?

I can understand its utility in a sentry post situation if a mortar or CGustaf type weapon is lacking, in throwing out some area damage.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 24 Feb 2012 19:22

^^ Indian Patent Office
http://ipindia.nic.in/ipirs1/patentsearch.htm

European Patent Office
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/?locale=en_EP

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 24 Feb 2012 22:47

Singha wrote:
I can understand its utility in a sentry post situation if a mortar or CGustaf type weapon is lacking, in throwing out some area damage.

Sentry posts would normally never have mortars or Rocket Launchers, a sentry post is not a defensible position and its primary function is act as a lookout. Plus a UBGL doesn't have the range of a mortar or the fire power of a Carl Gustav. UBGL is as the name suggests a "grenade launcher" to launch grenades, you can't take out an APC or shoot down a helicopter with it. It's range is limited to about 100 yards or so.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 29 Feb 2012 16:10

Combat shotgun....awesome!
http://www.gizmag.com/aa-12-combat-shot ... tic/11393/

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Feb 2012 16:39

Sentry posts would normally never have mortars or Rocket Launchers, a sentry post is not a defensible position and its primary function is act as a lookout

^^^ I meant the kind of post in afghanistan US firebases that are located atop hills and protected by sandbags. the talibs sometimes try to creep up in the night and launch cQB.

I saw a combat shotgun in use in "The Expendables" movie....awe inspiring amt of damage. our police CT units and COIN units could use it in built up areas.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 29 Feb 2012 16:51

Singha wrote:considering each round of a UBGL needs to be hand fed ... it is of any use in a fast moving mobile battle situation?

If you look at it as an infantry range suppressive weapon, it is quite useful. It might also be the only organic tool of a squad that can threaten targets in defilades.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 03 Mar 2012 10:20

Can someone identify this gun.This picture is from the recent Indo-Indonesian exercises.To me it looks like a black colored INSAS

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 04 Mar 2012 02:07

aniket wrote: Can someone identify this gun.This picture is from the recent Indo-Indonesian exercises.To me it looks like a black colored INSAS

to me it looks like a normal Insas with camo cover on plastic parts

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 04 Mar 2012 13:58

Thanks and its looking good.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Mar 2012 20:36

Interesting gun

Israel Weapon Industries to display semi automatic 7.62mm Caliber Light Machine Gun at DefExpo India

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Mar 2012 22:12

Machine Gun is Semi Automatic? 1 shot every time you pull the trigger, doesn't that defeat its very purpose?

ok it has option of being used in semi-automatic mode.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 05 Mar 2012 22:22

I think it is more suited for providing mobile firepower for a squad.it's like the M249.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 05 Mar 2012 23:15

What does the blacklisting of IMI mean for Tavor Series of small arms in India ?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 06 Mar 2012 09:29

I obtained a bigger image: IWI NEGEV NG7 7.62mm Semi Automatic LMG

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Mar 2012 10:24

Gurneesh wrote:What does the blacklisting of IMI mean for Tavor Series of small arms in India ?

Tavor is from IWI.

chackojoseph wrote:I obtained a bigger image: IWI NEGEV NG7 7.62mm Semi Automatic LMG

CJ saab, is this different from the 5.56 one IA have?

Added Later... It is.

vanand · Post by **vanand** » 06 Mar 2012 12:03

aniket wrote:
Can someone identify this gun.This picture is from the recent Indo-Indonesian exercises.To me it looks like a black colored INSAS

I think the buttstock, grip are covered with camouflage cloth. Why IA is not planing to upgrading these parts with polymer.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 06 Mar 2012 12:11

koti wrote:
Gurneesh wrote:What does the blacklisting of IMI mean for Tavor Series of small arms in India ?
Tavor is from IWI.

Just as a side note: IMI blacklisting will effect only the Nalanda OFB factory producing BMCS

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 09 Mar 2012 10:03

Some IWI systems images recd from PR.

IWI ACE 52

IWI TAVOR CTAR with MEPRO 21

IWI X95 AR with MEPRO MOR