Artillery Discussion Thread

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Mar 2012 13:24

vic wrote:
rohitvats wrote:On the 130mm gun upgrade - certain eminent defense analyst (aka plagiarist) was shouting hoarse that it was stopped after couple of initial conversions because of technical issues. Whats more, he even called ex-senior arty fellows are ignorant of ground situation on the matter. Well, there you have it in the CAG Report. 9 regiments are already up gunned and I think some more (again, couple of hundred) are to follow.
...

Would 9 regiments be around 180guns? So basically first trance of Israeli order gone through? The second batch to follow?

What about equal order to OFB Metaphorsis 155mm upgrade?

IA has around 750 x 130 mm M-46 guns, out of which 180 guns seems to have been upgraded to 155mm standard. That leaves around 500+ guns for potential 155mm upgrade.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Mar 2012 13:32

^^^I thik it has more.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 18 Mar 2012 14:37

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chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Mar 2012 14:47

rohitvats wrote:^^^Your whine fest about IA wanting foreign stuff is quite well know. Can you please tell me what capability did DRDO have, or still has, to develop a 155mm caliber gun? And in what timeframe? OFB manufacturing 155/39 or 155/45 Cal guns is a much better route to ensure that guns are made locally - we'll be saved the project management fiasco of LCA while meeting the operational requirement of IA.

I understand you are referring to Vic. The debate is now over. Now it is time for action. OFB has got its PO and a parliamentary committee (in addition to Army) will be looking at it. On DRDO, when I was asking for information of this story , I was told that the expertise once built is lost after Arjun Gun (etc). Now, they have already sent some scientist to Univ overseas for this project. In addition, they have been already setting up the technology base. Private sector, which now exhibit their respective capabilities has shown interest.

I am sure, eager watchers like us will get our reply in next 2-3 years.

If I were asked the above question, I would reply "Bullish."

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 18 Mar 2012 20:40

srai wrote:

IA has around 750 x 130 mm M-46 guns, out of which 180 guns seems to have been upgraded to 155mm standard. That leaves around 500+ guns for potential 155mm upgrade.

rohitvats wrote:^^^I thik it has more.

We have around 1800 M-46 guns. At least we had them back in 2001.

The upgradation of the 1800-odd 130 mm guns to the level of Bofors guns will enhance manifold the firepower of the Artillery........

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010928/main5.htm

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Mar 2012 05:56

^^^ Rohit and Snehasis, IA purchased approx 1200 M-46 130 mm Arty (based on SIPRI numbers), over three seperate deals spread over decades, of these some number were meant for the SP Arty..

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 19 Mar 2012 06:59

Not a chance of this happening, but......
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... itzer.html

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 19 Mar 2012 15:24

130mm used in SP Arty is called Catapult. This has not been a successful venture since the gunners are not too fond of it. Case in point that there are not many regiments equipped with this.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Mar 2012 17:28

^^^It is not in service anymore.

koti · Post by **koti** » 19 Mar 2012 20:50

Any link Rohit saab?

In reserve or in scrap?

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 19 Mar 2012 21:03

Snehashis wrote:
ramana wrote:So what is needed to make a cargo shell from the existing types in OFB capability?

IMI is expected to provide the TOT to manufacture them at Nalanda. Also a desi 130 mm cargo shell is undergoing user acceptance trials.

Its look like Denel actually transferred the technology for the cargo shells. It is very much in production at OFB. Here's a picture of it found on another forum.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Mar 2012 21:45

koti wrote:Any link Rohit saab?

In reserve or in scrap?

I think I read somewhere that they had been removed from service....the gunners were never fond of it in the first place. No idea on scrap/reserve point.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 19 Mar 2012 22:10

But guys isnt the recent ban on ST Kinetics removed the roadblocks for acquiring LWHs from US ?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 19 Mar 2012 22:18

Snehashis wrote:But guys isnt the recent ban on ST Kinetics removed the roadblocks for acquiring LWHs from US ?

No. The numerous bans left a single vendor situation. We will soon see a newspaper article quoting unnamed sources hinting that the remaining vendor may have bribed officials to ban their competitors. This will result in our super clean raksha mantri banning the one remaining vendor as well.

The chinese and pakis must be laughing their a$$es off at this spectacle.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 19 Mar 2012 22:52

Livefist reports that GoI gives 350Cr to use Bofors ToT to make a desi Howitzer. BK was talking about this in BR talk I think

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 19 Mar 2012 23:21

rohitvats wrote:^^^It is not in service anymore.

Thanks for the info Rohit. Didnt know it had been phased out

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Mar 2012 15:22

5,000 Pinaka rockets to be produced every year

Another vital project of the OFAJ is 105 mm shells HEER, which has a projectile mass of 16 kgs and is of 593 m length. HEER has a range of 20.4 Km with super charge, they added.

I hope these new shells with improved explosive material can bust bunkers, would be very useful in mountains where these guns would be primarily used.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Mar 2012 15:39

I think that we should use Bofors technology to produce a batch of non automated 155mm guns first, which would be easier stepping stone to automated 155mm towed guns. SOmething like Russian 152 mm gun 2A36

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 Mar 2012 17:02

OFB upgrades Bofors 155 mm 39 caliber to 45 caliber

Combine it with this

We will get our answer if We can make the guns or not.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Mar 2012 17:21

with cooperation of BAE obtained, M&M present as local partner to help out, the projects chances of success are good imo.

45cal should suffice for plains and mountains both. even 39cal will be good enough for most cases.

hope the IA doesnt get the 52cal fetish. nice to have, but unless dynasty is kicked out we cannot have it.

also longer the caliber higher the cost of shells most likely (or atleast higher the cost of charges). if 85% of the problem is getting solved cheaper with 39/45cal range thats best for volume production with some mix of 52cal "deep strike" gun barrels in every regiment.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 20 Mar 2012 18:29

Details on OFAJ An-32 Aerial Delivery System
Link

According to sources, AN-32 Platform system is another important milestone in the history of OFAJ and the first batch of OFAJ's indigenously produced AN-32 Platform was handed over to the Indian Army in July last year.

AN-32 Platform system is an Aerial Delivery System to para drop vehicles from height of 500 to 700 metres, with the help of parachutes. The platforms loaded with vehicle are carried on hydraulic trolley to airbase and the same is put inside an AN-32 aircraft with the help of a hydraulic trolley and manual push, sources said.

The platforms, along with parachutes, are dropped from aircraft at the desired locations. The platform loaded with vehicles gets stabilised and lands on ground with the help of parachutes.

The AN-32 Platform heavy drop system was designed and developed by Aerial Delivery Research and Development Establishment (ADRDE). It is a substitute to Russian AN-32 Platform system. OFAJ has indigenously developed this item in collaboration with ADRDE Agra.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 20 Mar 2012 19:08

Field trials of upgraded Bofors gun in Jan 2013
Link

An upgraded version of the 155mm Bofors gun, the Indian Army’s most potent artillery weapon, will be ready for field trials in January 2013, a top official of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) said on Tuesday.

“We are working on this upgraded version. This has been tried out in PXE (Proof and Experimental Establishment), Balasore,” OFB chairperson Sashi Dhar Dimri said on the sidelines of its 210th anniversary here.

OFB is upgrading the gun from its original 39-calibre to 45-calibre with mechanical and electronic suites.

Extensive firing has been carried out at PXE Balasore as part of the upgrade process.

“We are confident that in the beginning of 2013, our GCF (Gun Carriage Factory, Jabalpur) will be in a position to field the gun for trials,” Dimri said.

While one gun has been upgraded with the electronic suite incorporating ballistic computers, servo valves and communication systems to provide automation, the second gun has been upgraded by fitting a new 45 calibre barrel, enabling it to achieve a range of 40 km.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Mar 2012 19:55

The developing of chassis, engine, crane, recoil absorption system, etc which can absorb the punishment of the gun firing is no small feat. I hope OFB can manage it.

I think that there are multiple projects:-

One is up gradation/up gunning of 130mm to 155mm which has gone to Israelis
Second is upgradation of existing Bofors 155mm which has gone to OFB
Third is manufacturing new 155mm guns which has gone to OFB. The issue is what are the specifications of these guns?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 Mar 2012 20:02

vic wrote:Second is upgradation of existing Bofors 155mm which has gone to OFB
Third is manufacturing new 155mm guns which has gone to OFB. The issue is what are the specifications of these guns?

These two are one and the same projects. OFB upgrades Bofors 155 mm 39 caliber to 45 caliber

ofb-to-develop-155mm-artillery-guns-for-the-indian-army[/quote]

Both say 2 prototypes and trials by Jan 13.

So, they have modified two guns (they haven't said existing or new) with newer hardware and software. One parameter we get from the report is that it has 40 kms range.

added later....

Once successful, just make the copies and deliver it to the Army.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Mar 2012 21:13

CJ, Of the two prototypes one is electronic systems upgard and the other is barrel length upgrade right?

While one gun has been upgraded with the electronic suite incorporating ballistic computers, servo valves and communication systems to provide automation, the second gun has been upgraded by fitting a new 45 calibre barrel, enabling it to achieve a range of 40 km.

Or do you think the second model has both barrel and systems upgraded?

I would have three units:
- systems upgrade on 39 cal: proof the systesm upgrade
- barrel upgrade on plain vanilla 39 cal: proof the barrel upgrade
- systems and barrel upgrade version : proof the combined effects

This last one would be the inducted version if its OK.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Mar 2012 21:34

imho -
1st proto - 39cal + electronic and motor systems upg
2nd proto - 45 cal + electronic & motor systems upg

if 1st proto works - our 400 guns will be updated
if 2nd proto works - new guns will be made.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 21 Mar 2012 01:15

Denel G6 has a 155mm 52 cal gun with a range of 58 km. That's nearly 50% greater range than the upgraded 45 cal Bofors gun. Who the hell are we penalizing by blacklisting Denel? Simply grab the desi crooks involved and castrate them. If the Poaks were smart they should try get Denel giuns with Chinese money and have the Chinese either pay for ToT or try to reverse engineer these guns. US would probably pressure Denel not to sell directly to China.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Mar 2012 06:54

ramana wrote:CJ, Of the two prototypes one is electronic systems upgard and the other is barrel length upgrade right?

While one gun has been upgraded with the electronic suite incorporating ballistic computers, servo valves and communication systems to provide automation, the second gun has been upgraded by fitting a new 45 calibre barrel, enabling it to achieve a range of 40 km.

Or do you think the second model has both barrel and systems upgraded?

I would have three units:
- systems upgrade on 39 cal: proof the systesm upgrade
- barrel upgrade on plain vanilla 39 cal: proof the barrel upgrade
- systems and barrel upgrade version : proof the combined effects

This last one would be the inducted version if its OK.

ramana,

Refining my understanding from (yesterday night) all this is that they have modified two guns in format that can be used for testing. When you read my first article on OFB 155mm Gun, then you will see that they are making prototypes that has to be given to Army.

So, the question if OFB can deliver the guns in time, is answered by the new information. They probably can, may be a month of delay in case. However, I think they have budgeted the delay already and given a target of Jan 13 trials based on the test results at PXE.

The deliverable by OFB in Jan 13 is expected to be one 39 and one 45 for trials.

If successful the Army has the options:

1) Renew 39 cal or new build 39 cal.
2) Upgrade to 45 cal and ask for more copies of 45 cal.

There could be other interesting outcomes incase the trials come partially successful. For example, if it performs in hot / cold / plains/mountains or other parameters, we can churn out numbers for that particular combination and it will leave a scope of import for less number of artillery/ work on suitable modification to suite particular role it did not achieve. Over all, this will turn tables on Army's logic of making more T-90's : Commonality with T-72; here commonality with bofors gun.

What I am predicting is, our next 52 cal could be from either DRDO or Mahindra or L&T or TATA or Reliance. Definitely not an import. I had been told by a manufacturer that this is the last chance of selling an artillery to India, because after this India will make it's own. I feel that last chance already happened. Just keep fingers crossed for Jan 2013 trials.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Mar 2012 07:00

>> Denel G6 has a 155mm 52 cal gun with a range of 58 km. That's nearly 50% greater range than the upgraded 45 cal Bofors gun

we should consider cost. these extreme ranges are achieved with the costlier rocket assisted shells. even the normal shells cost a lot. for volume fire its better to use the normal shells which might max out at say 40-45km....we can afford more of them. in kargil, the paki logisitical targets if shelled would have been around 20-30km from the bofors units.

sure the higher range affords more options in tactical positioning of artillery unit, useful in places like mountains where proper sites might be limited, but the longish barrel has its own issues on narrow roads and imo its always better to have more units than depend on a few longer ranged units - more redundancy, less chance of downtime or air/missile attacks shutting down artillery support entirely.

52cal is probably ideal for truck and tracked howitzers which will be far less than towed guns. might as well go big there. and being corps arty or indep arty divisions they are more likely to be called in for depth attacks and need to service requests on a wide arc of the map.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Mar 2012 07:15

apparently the chi chi excalibur GPS guided round costs $89,000 while a normal shell costs $300-1000 range.
I would be interested in the cost diff between normal and the RAP shells though...seems to be 2X, while the cheaper base-bleed BB rounds are nearly same cost
the cargo shells like BONUS featuring smart submunitions are the costliest

http://www.pmulcahy.com/ammunition/howitzer_rounds.html

155mm NATO BONUS: Weight: 62.6 kg; Price: $5280 (R/-)
155mm NATO Chaff-ERFB: Weight: 42.84 kg; Price: $645 (R/-)
155mm NATO CHEM: Weight: 44.68 kg; Price: $500 (S/R)
155mm CHEM RAP: Weight: 49.15 kg; Price: $790 (S/R)
155mm NATO FASCAM: Weight: 46.5 kg; Price: $4400 (S/R)
155mm FASCAM RAP: Weight: 51.15 kg; Price: $6970 (S/R)
155mm NATO HE: Weight: 43.88 kg; Price: $440 (C/S)
155mm NATO HE RAP: Weight: 48.27 kg; Price: $690 (C/S)
155mm NATO ERFB HE: Weight: 45.34 kg; Price: $555 (S/R)
155mm NATO ERFB-BB HE: Weight: 47.77 kg; Price: $715 (S/R)
155mm NATO HEAT: Weight: 40 kg; Price: $440 (S/R)
155mm NATO ICM-DP: Weight: 46.54 kg; Price: $2420 (C/S)
155mm NATO ICM-DP RAP: Weight: 51.19 kg; Price: $3820 (C/S)
155mm NATO ICM-DP ERFB: Weight: 45.3 kg; Price: $3050 (S/R)
155mm NATO ICM-DP ERFP-BB: Weight: 47.3 kg; Price: $3930 (S/R)
155mm NATO ILLUM: Weight: 46.75 kg; Price: $405 (S/R)
155mm NATO ILLUM ERFB: Weight: 45.5 kg; Price: $510 (R/-)
155mm NATO ILLUM ERFB-BB: Weight: 47.5 kg; Price: $655 (R/-)
155mm NATO Jammer: Weight: 46.26 kg; Price: $4440 (R/-)
155mm NATO Jammer RAP: Weight: 50.89 kg; Price: $7015 (-/-)
155mm NATO Ogre ICM-DP: Weight: 46.54 kg; Price: $2920 (R/-)
155mm NATO SADARM: Weight: 47 kg; Price: $6600 (R/-)
155mm NATO WP: Weight: 44.68 kg; Price: $690 (C/S)
155mm NATO WP ERFB: Weight: 43.49 kg; Price: $870 (S/R)
155mm NATO WP ERFB-BB: Weight: 45.4 kg; Price: $1115 (S/R)
155mm NATO WP RAP: Weight: 49.15 kg; Price: $1090 (C/S)
155mm NATO Powder Charge: Weight: 25 kg; Price: $60 (V/C)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Mar 2012 07:34

the Jammer shells are the 'barrage jammers' that Badar talks about?

vic · Post by **vic** » 21 Mar 2012 09:41

chackojoseph wrote:
These two are one and the same projects. OFB upgrades Bofors 155 mm 39 caliber to 45 caliber

ofb-to-develop-155mm-artillery-guns-for-the-indian-army

Both say 2 prototypes and trials by Jan 13.

So, they have modified two guns (they haven't said existing or new) with newer hardware and software. One parameter we get from the report is that it has 40 kms range.

added later....

Once successful, just make the copies and deliver it to the Army.

Re Chacko

I think that your understanding might be incorrect. (sorry!) These are two different projects altogether.

The first one is for upgradation of “existing” Bofors gun. Two type of upgradation is planned:- (i) Upgradation of electronics + electrical while keeping the original 39 caliber barrel (ii) upgradation of barrel to 45 caliber (+guessing Upgradation of electronics + electrical also). I think that Prototypes of this project will be offered to Army for testing in Jan 2103 that in next 9 months or so.

The second project is to manufacture completely “new” 155mm guns based on Bofors drawings. 6 prototypes have to given for testing within 18 months (or rather around 15 months from now). Order for 100 guns have already been placed. The specifications of these guns are unknown except :- (i) One variant is 155x39 caliber (ii) Second variant is upgraded 155x39 caliber (iii) Third variant is 155x45 caliber

OFB has already come out with a tender for chassis of new guns. I want to say that to manufacture new guns OFB needs to develop/source:-

1. Engine, APU, gearbox, transmission, differential etc
2. Chassis, trails, recoil absorbing system, towing system
3. Ammo crane, feeding system, ammo ramming system
4. Hydraulics, servos
5. Sighting system, survey equipment, FCS, navigation system, GPS etc

Now the specification of these 3 variants are unknown. What I was trying to say/suggest was that if, the first variant is just a manually operated non-automated version of Bofors then it will make the task of OFB easier and give it a stepping stone for more complicated & automated variants.

Lastly OFB should also be given order for upgunning 130mm guns to 155mm to help it build up its capacity.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 21 Mar 2012 10:15

GD, I will have to research this further but I did not think the shells were rocket assisted. Denel just seems to better even Unkil in terms of range in 155mm guns. Cost is clearly a factor but given the volumes we were after and Denel's financial condition I think we could have demanded and gotten the family jewels. In any event it looks like a 100% Idian made gun is near. After a quarter of a century time to say AoA.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Mar 2012 10:18

Vic,

I may be not right, I have only speculated based on stitching the stories together.

My logic is that they have tested modules on an existing gun. Now, they are going to fresh build 32/45 cal's and deliver it to Army. IMO, the two Bofors guns modified are "hack" (equivalent of Hack aircraft's). Another example is Karna Tank, which was T-72 chassis and Arjun Turret for testing.

Rest has been typed as a reply to Ramana.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Mar 2012 10:30

tejas if you were referring to this:
In September 2001, the G6 achieved a range of 53.6km using the new velocity-enhanced long-range projectile (V-LAP) and the new M64 bi-modular charge system. V-LAP combines base bleed and rocket motor technology, while the M64 charge system increases muzzle velocity to 910m/s VLAP is part of Denel's new Assegai range of 155mm ammunition.
----
the combo tech is that first base bleed segment is there, then a rocket motor, then the warhead...as seen in a diagram.

TSP is upgunning itself steadily with a mix of turkish panter, chinese models and US M109. south korea supplied a 155mm ammo plant. we definitely need lots of artillery to control the situation vs the dynamic duo.

we should aim to pinpoint their main arty using radar and smack them with Pinaka or Smerch, rather than indulging in gun vs gun duels. our guns can focus on their infantry and vehicles.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Mar 2012 10:53

CJ Thanks.

tejas The Denel is a derivative of Gerald Bull's designs. SO it will be better.

INC played petty politics and deprived the nation of an already done deal. They hoped the Denel would be the BJP's Bofors scam. It wasn't.

GD Thanks for that catalog.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 21 Mar 2012 13:39

IIRC Asian Age reported that the whole Assegai family to be manufactured at Badmal. It includes the V-LAP projectile.

Singha, the volume of the chamber also play a crucial role for achieving longer range. A 25l chamber gun can throw the up to 67.5 km whereas a 23l gun can achieve 58 km with the same projectile.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 21 Mar 2012 16:30

GD, you were right and I was wrong (why am I not surprised

). The VLAP projectile ammunition is rocket assisited and according to Wiki has been tested out to
73 km

I read about the 58 km range projectile in article where a Denel executive was describing the virtues of the G6. He did not mention the projectile was VLAP...likely intentionally.

Here's a brief article on Denel trying to screw the MoD as a sole source contractor that I was not aware of:

http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/724 ... c16a6ac295

In December 2005, Indian Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee revealed that India’s Ministry of Defence had issued a Request for Information (RFI) regarding all wheeled 155mm/52-caliber self-propelled artillery systems currently available on the international market. Indian artillery officials complained that Denel (as sole-source contractor) had elevated the unit price of each G6 Renoster to about $5.5 million, about $1.78 million above the weapon system’s usual unit price.

Further complicating matters were Indian allegations of corruption on the part of Denel. In May 2005, the Indian defense minister suspended all negotiations and business with Denel, pending an investigation by the Indian Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI). The suspension order and investigation left Denel’s participation in the Indian Army’s 155mm self-propelled howitzer program twisting in the wind.

vic · Post by **vic** » 21 Mar 2012 19:13

chackojoseph wrote:Vic,

I may be not right, I have only speculated based on stitching the stories together.

My logic is that they have tested modules on an existing gun. Now, they are going to fresh build 32/45 cal's and deliver it to Army. IMO, the two Bofors guns modified are "hack" (equivalent of Hack aircraft's). Another example is Karna Tank, which was T-72 chassis and Arjun Turret for testing.

Rest has been typed as a reply to Ramana.

Chacko, we hope you are able to find out more about these important developments and post the info!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Mar 2012 22:23

Tejas, Prices are quoted in then dollars. If the customer drags the decision years later and demand the same price while all the materails costs have increased its not realistic. Recall in the early 2000 decade thanks to9/11 prices of everything shot up.

Pranabda can make pious statements about price rise etc but delay is the worst form of denial.