PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 23 Mar 2012 23:00

China's external debt soars to 27-yr high at $695 bn.

China's external debt totalled a whopping $695 billion last year, highest in 27 years, adding to concerns that it might undermine the country's fiscal position at a time when its economy has slowed down due to declining exports.

The external debt rose by $146 billion, or nearly 27% from 2010, data released by the State Administration of Foreign Exchange (SAFE) said.

The proportion of short-term external debt to the total also climbed to a record high of 72% as of December 31, in contrast to 68% in 2010 and 60% in 2009, SAFE data said.

But the year-on-year increase in short-term debt moderated. As of 2011 end, outstanding short-term debt stood at $500.9 billion, up 33%. The growth rate was nearly 12 percentage points lower than in 2010.

The jump in foreign debt shows that China, which lends more than it borrows, is borrowing more from overseas to hedge against the devaluation of its foreign exchange reserves, analysts said.

Meanwhile, enterprises on the Chinese mainland have resorted to borrowing from overseas due to financing difficulties at home, they added.

As the yuan has strengthened against other currencies, the value of China's foreign exchange reserves has shrunk, Li Jian, a research fellow from the Chinese Academy of International Trade and Economic Cooperation from the Ministry of Commerce said.

According to SAFE, the Yuan has risen 13.69% against the US dollar since the beginning of 2008.

The Yuan appreciation also had adverse impact on China's foreign exchange reserves of $3.20 trillion, highest in the world. As a result, the value of the Chinese government's dollar-denominated assets has fallen, Li argued.

Borrowing in dollars allow the government to offset some of those losses because it would effectively have to pay less when the loans come due if the yuan continues to strengthen, Li told state run Global Times.

Also, the Chinese business enterprises have become more reliant on borrowing from abroad due to soaring costs of domestic financing, Zhang Yugui, dean of the College of International Finance and Trade at Shanghai International Studies University said.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Mar 2012 14:26

I guess our biladels are not at work posting bojitive neuj since its the weekend but the Gleat Chinese Innovation Machine bashes on regardless....

Made in India, Faked in China

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 25 Mar 2012 00:10

^^^^
The 5 Most Insane Examples of Chinese Counterfeiting
The #1 item in that list is cigarettes.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Mar 2012 00:28

ArmenT wrote:^^^^
The 5 Most Insane Examples of Chinese Counterfeiting
The #1 item in that list is cigarettes.

From the article:

The illusion was so perfect that even the employees thought the place was legit. Let's say that again: Even though it's a complete knockoff, all the employees completely believed they were working for Apple.

These fakes do show that the Chinese can work very hard, very opportunistic and are very industrious - more than most nations. The big question is why don't they even attempt to channel their creativity in the right direction?

They are like the skilled artists who can paint high quality fakes of original paintings of other big name artists but nobody would call those artists who simply copy, as being talented or give them respect becoz they are lack the creativity for originality. There something deeply wrong in the Chinese psyche here and I don't think the comparisons with Japanese and Koreans of yore is valid becoz unlike these 2, the more China grows, the more they indulge in these ridiculous acts of faking.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Mar 2012 00:35

Raja Bose wrote:These fakes do show that the Chinese can work very hard, very opportunistic and are very industrious - more than most nations. The big question is why don't they even attempt to channel their creativity in the right direction?

Because the moment they do someone knocks off the product or the state takes over. It is far easier and more lucrative to knock off stuff in Panda land. No IP to protect or invest in.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 26 Mar 2012 19:17

China's Huawei barred from Australia broadband deal

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 26 Mar 2012 20:34

Gee!

China's Not-So-Super Computers

Supercomputers are largely seen in China as local economic-development tools. City governments play a much larger role in setting China's supercomputer research agenda than they do in the U.S. because Chinese cities finance a larger share of the projects.

Shenzhen, which paid three-quarters of the $1.3 billion cost of the Shenzhen supercomputer center, "doesn't care about climate change and astrophysics"—traditional supercomputer research projects—said Feng Shengzhong, deputy director of a Shenzhen research institute that develops applications for the Nebulae. "They care about local problems."

I wonder what these local projects are? Great Filewall of China!

To illustrate the uneven perception of China's supercomputer efforts, Mr. Qian, the veteran supercomputer researcher, holds his palms at hip level. "Generally, we're here," he said, "but everyone thinks we're higher," as he raises his palms to shoulder height.

This statement holds true in a lot of other things....IMHO

Lotsa hearburn in the comments section

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Mar 2012 06:00

^^^Well to be fair, why should they care about the western obsession with climate change and finding little green beings on Mars? If they are using their super computers just like we use our super computers and ISRO, more power to them. If they are using their super computers for Gleat Chinese Phyrr-wall onlee, even more power to them!

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 27 Mar 2012 08:24

Gee!

China's Not-So-Super Computers

This guy bob davis is keeping a watch on this thread.. I exposed the chinese sooper duper computers months ago...non of them do anything scientific.. all of them are listed as providing internet service.. Most of them have been supplied by HP..

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=3880

zlin · Post by **zlin** » 27 Mar 2012 09:22

Shanghai designed and made shield machine exported to India to help Chennai metro construction.

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Mar 2012 12:13

Red Terror Revisited in Chongqing. No wonder "Glandpa Wen" - Teletubby talked about the Cultural Revolution repeating. And no, it takes just one nutty leader to do it. What if Carrot - Hu went nuts and wanted to do a "Mao" , just like this Bo Xilai wanted to do ?

Bo Xilai's Crime crackdown Adds to Scandal from NYT

BEIJING — As Bo Xilai, the dismissed Chongqing party chief, becomes immersed in an ever-more tangled scandal, disturbing details are emerging about one of his best-known initiatives, a crusade against organized crime on which he built a national reputation.

critics now say it depicts a security apparatus run amok: framing victims, extracting confessions through torture, extorting business empires and visiting retribution on the political rivals of Mr. Bo and his friends while protecting those with better connections.

“Even by Chinese Communist Party standards, this is unacceptable,” said Cheng Li, an analyst of the Chinese leadership at the Brookings Institution. “This is red terror.”

The campaign’s overlord was Wang Lijun, Mr. Bo’s police chief and, now, the force behind Mr. Bo’s downfall. Mr. Wang caused an international incident last month when he sought refuge in a United States consulate, apparently fearing for his safety. Details that have surfaced in the past week indicate that, in part, he feared retaliation after telling Mr. Bo that his family was linked to an inquiry into the death of a British citizen, Neil Heywood, who was an acquaintance of Mr. Bo’s family.

Examples are not hard to find. Gong Gangmo, 48, a motorbike mogul, and Fan Qihang, 40, a construction entrepreneur, were charged with a string of felonies that included ordering the murder of a man after a nightclub fight. Both claimed innocence.

In an interview videotaped before his death, Mr. Fan said he had been secretly confined in a military reserve camp for five months and shackled to an iron bar — once, for five days straight — with only his toes touching a table. His handcuffs cut so deeply into his wrists that his guards once needed an hour to remove them.

Mr. Fan said he had tried to kill himself by beating his head against the concrete wall and by biting off the tip of his tongue, injuries supported by medical records. His lawyer, Zhu Mingyong, said he had seen only a few pages of the prosecution’s voluminous file. Even so, “There were so many obvious violations of the law, you don’t even have to look for them,” he said. Mr. Fan was found guilty and executed in July, 2010.

His co-defendant, Mr. Gong, underwent similar torture, according to his lawyer, Li Zhuang, and his medical records also documented wrist scars. But any chance to exclude his confession vanished after Mr. Gong suddenly accused Li Zhuang of advising him to lie about being tortured. Li Zhuang said Mr. Gong had turned on him to spare himself from execution.

Li Zhuang was convicted of suborning perjury just 18 days after his arrest. Upon appeal, with no hope of justice, he said he wrote a confession, but began his paragraphs with words that combined to read “forced to confess.” His 18-month sentence scared other private attorneys away from da hei cases.

He Weifang, a Peking University law professor, said the case “sets China’s legal reform back 30 years.”

One of the wealthiest magnates ensnared in the purges was Li Jun, a Chongqing real estate mogul. Like hundreds of other private business executives, he said during 16 hours of interviews this month, he became a target of police, government and military officials who framed him as a “black society” boss.

He eventually lost control of his $711 million conglomerate and fled the country, branded a fugitive. Before his escape, he said, he endured three months of beatings, torture and relentless pressure to implicate others in nonexistent crimes.

He said his tormentors sought to confiscate his assets and extract a confession that could help frame rivals of Mr. Bo’s powerful ally in the military, Gen. Zhang Haiyang, now the political commissar of China’s nuclear forces.

Li Jun buttressed his account with photos taken at a secret detention facility and with binders of legal documents signed by military and police officials. A scholar of Chinese politics at Columbia University, Andrew Nathan, authenticated five documents supporting his claims of innocence.

Li Jun’s troubles began within a year after Mr. Bo’s appointment. A subsidiary of his company won a $50 million public bid for a hilly tract of land outside Chongqing. The seller was one of China’s five regional military commands, he said, led at the time by General Zhang.

In December 2009, under orders signed by the police chief, Mr. Wang, Li Jun was detained on suspicion of more than a dozen crimes, including organizing prostitution, usury, contract fraud, bid-rigging and bribery. He was bound to a “tiger bench,” a medieval-style iron seat with a straight back and a grooved bottom, and was kicked, pummeled and berated for 40 straight hours. At that point, he said, “I just wanted to die.”

A top military interrogator presented Li Jun with a list of more than 20 military officers, apparently rivals of Mr. Bo’s ally General Zhang, and accused him of bribing 2 of them to win the bid on the tract of land. “Don’t you see?” he said his interrogator finally told him. “Bo Xilai and Political Commissar Zhang are friends who grew up together. You are being framed. ”

Thirty-one relatives and colleagues have since been jailed. His wife served a one-year sentence for aiding his flight. His elder brother was sentenced to 18 years in prison, his nephew 13 years. He had transferred ownership of his company to them in an attempt to shield it.

“It’s just like some new kind of Cultural Revolution,” he said. “Chongqing strikes down the landlords, redistributes the land and slaps a bad name on your head, ‘triad,’ from which you can never be freed.”

Oh well, what can I say. Good luck CPC drones. I just wish that you don't get "purged" one of this days after "criticism" and sent to "hard socialist labor" after being confined to an "Iron chair with grooved bottom and pummeled and kicked and beaten" and "interrogated".

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Mar 2012 13:09

quite scary if powerful billion $ industrialists can be destroyed in this way with no legal protection or media coverage. foreigners cannot afford to be 'too successful' there for sure, lest they attract attention of the hawks.

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 27 Mar 2012 22:10

China's ChangAn EADO Sedan

Priced around $11K to $15K. 124hp, AT/MT.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 28 Mar 2012 04:12

^^^ A Chinese Yakov Smirnoff would have said, "In Communist China you pay cash-for-clunkers"

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 28 Mar 2012 04:49

The posts by Chinese members before and after the one by Vina on the Bo Xilai purge episode and the coup rumors are a very interesting case study.

It's almost like a person walking past a major politically-charged public infarction that they studiously ignore in order to avoid getting into trouble, and instead commenting on the pretty flowers near the footpath instead: "Never mind the public purge of a top Politburo member. Here's a pretty car, and a cute tunneling machine"

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 28 Mar 2012 08:53

Suraj wrote:The posts by Chinese members before and after the one by Vina on the Bo Xilai purge episode and the coup rumors are a very interesting case study.

It's almost like a person walking past a major politically-charged public infarction that they studiously ignore in order to avoid getting into trouble, and instead commenting on the pretty flowers near the footpath instead: "Never mind the public purge of a top Politburo member. Here's a pretty car, and a cute tunneling machine"

Suraj, this is an economy thread and I want to stick with that. If I wanted to discuss politics, I would go to the politics forum which Vina also has posted the same news there. Besides that, what is the point of discussing politics? There is no hard data, no bench mark, no reference point. It doesn't take long before someone starts name calling.

The car link I post is a response to some one's early request in this thread. He wanted to see a China design car. I show him with this link.You pay 11K to 15K, you get a car has 125hp, moon roof, parking radar, GPS, good interior design, all auto windows/side mirrows etc... Pretty nice. They are working on a turbo model now.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 28 Mar 2012 09:17

The site was in Chinese - is there an English version?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 28 Mar 2012 09:24

ashi wrote:Suraj, this is an economy thread and I want to stick with that. If I wanted to discuss politics, I would go to the politics forum which Vina also has posted the same news there. Besides that, what is the point of discussing politics? There is no hard data, no bench mark, no reference point. It doesn't take long before someone starts name calling.

That's a very noble sentiment indeed coming from someone who had no problem trolling a page ago. How about I solicit a response on the topic from you in the PRC thread instead ? What's the general refrain on the expat-oriented (knowing that you're not PRC based, unike, say, zlin) Chinese-language blogosphere on the matter of Bo Xilai and the general state of affairs in Beijing ?

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 28 Mar 2012 09:39

Raja Bose wrote:The site was in Chinese - is there an English version?

Frankfurt show

Chagna Eado Launched

Looks like Changan has a design center in Italy and that office leads the design effort of this car, according to some media reports.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 28 Mar 2012 09:49

Look at their symbol. They turned the Acura symbol on its head. What originality

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 28 Mar 2012 09:50

ashi wrote: Suraj, this is an economy thread and I want to stick with that. If I wanted to discuss politics, I would go to the politics forum which Vina also has posted the same news there. Besides that, what is the point of discussing politics? There is no hard data, no bench mark, no reference point. It doesn't take long before someone starts name calling.

You see the problem now Ashi San. You want to use our freedom of speech rights to glorify China and insult India viz a viz China. But you would refrain to criticize your own political system because you are a coward. This moral, ethical and intellectual bankruptcy. You squirm and shout when holes are picked in your story, but you don't balls to be honest.

Go ahead project the glory of China and show us how bad things are in India. And don't be afraid, Mother India guarantees your right to do so, even though you are a Han Chinese.

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 28 Mar 2012 10:28

Sri wrote:
You see the problem now Ashi San. You want to use our freedom of speech rights to glorify China and insult India viz a viz China. But you would refrain to criticize your own political system because you are a coward. This moral, ethical and intellectual bankruptcy. You squirm and shout when holes are picked in your story, but you don't balls to be honest.

Go ahead project the glory of China and show us how bad things are in India. And don't be afraid, Mother India guarantees your right to do so, even though you are a Han Chinese.

Wow, what a speech. I post a link to a new car in China and that means I am glorifying China and "show how bad things are in India". I am not criticizing China's political system because i am a coward? If I said "xxxx you, CCP", does it make me a hero?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Mar 2012 10:31

you are a very pragmatic person Ashi sir

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 28 Mar 2012 11:11

ashi wrote: I am not criticizing China's political system because i am a coward? If I said "xxxx you, CCP", does it make me a hero?

No it makes you an honest poster ready engage in intelligent discussion. I don't want you to call CCP names. But I do want to see you acknowledge that not everything is perfect in China and there are gaping holes in some of CCP policies. It will help us better understand China.

Every time you post, you only post propaganda, which we all can see through. Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand that.

wong · Post by **wong** » 28 Mar 2012 14:43

Sri wrote:
ashi wrote: I am not criticizing China's political system because i am a coward? If I said "xxxx you, CCP", does it make me a hero?
No it makes you an honest poster ready engage in intelligent discussion. I don't want you to call CCP names. But I do want to see you acknowledge that not everything is perfect in China and there are gaping holes in some of CCP policies. It will help us better understand China.

Every time you post, you only post propaganda, which we all can see through. Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand that.

Park Chung-hee built modern South Korea. China is exactly 20 years behind.

[Today, Park's legacy is split between those who credit his role in rebuilding war-ravaged South Korea after the devastating Korean War, to those who fervidly condemn his authoritarian policies, particularly those implemented after 1971.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee

Park Chung Hee or Nehru-Gandhi. ????
You know what South Koreans would choose.
Lee Kuan Yew or Nehru-Gandhi. ????
I know what Singaporeans would choose.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 28 Mar 2012 14:56

wong wrote: Park Chung Hee or Nehru-Gandhi. ????
You know what South Koreans would choose.
Lee Kuan Yew or Nehru-Gandhi. ????
I know what Singaporeans would choose.

We will never know the answer Wong Sir. Both Nehru and Gandhi are now dead. Neither Nehru nor Gandhi fought an election against either Park Chung Hee or Lee Kuan Yew.

But please do tell how is this relevant to present debate?

Do enlighten us.

vina · Post by **vina** » 28 Mar 2012 15:01

Park Chung Hee or Nehru-Gandhi. ????
You know what South Koreans would choose.
Lee Kuan Yew or Nehru-Gandhi. ????
I know what Singaporeans would choose.

Nice rhetoric, but runs aground against reality.

Fact is South Koreans COULDN'T have done any choosing.

Singaporeans CAN'T (yeah yeah, I know its supposed to be a democracy etc, I have lived there) choose in a meaningful way, even today!

While Indians COULD and DID always choose since 1947. A BIG difference.

wong · Post by **wong** » 28 Mar 2012 15:05

Sri wrote:
wong wrote: Park Chung Hee or Nehru-Gandhi. ????
You know what South Koreans would choose.
Lee Kuan Yew or Nehru-Gandhi. ????
I know what Singaporeans would choose.
We will never know the answer Wong Sir. Both Nehru and Gandhi are now dead. Neither Nehru nor Gandhi fought an election against either Park Chung Hee or Lee Kuan Yew.

But please do tell how is this relevant to present debate?

Do enlighten us.

Obviously, I was talking about an authoritarian economic development system (Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, pre-war Japan and 1 party post war Japan and now China) vs. Some pseudo-democrazy for poor countries.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 28 Mar 2012 15:26

wong wrote:
Obviously, I was talking about an authoritarian economic development system (Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, pre-war Japan and 1 party post war Japan and now China) vs. Some pseudo-democrazy for poor countries.

You mean to say intelligent debates are not possible in China because it has authoritarian Government? And that is why Chinese posters behave here the way they do?

If the above is true... then why should we believe in stories you and Ashi and other like you post, since you yourself have implied that expecting intelligent debate with Chinese posters is wrong as they live in authoritarian countries.

And Wong ji how can you be so sure that if China was a democracy it would be worse then the CCP system?

wong · Post by **wong** » 28 Mar 2012 15:57

There is intelligent debate in China. The Blogosphere is huge and extremely active. Overly active as a matter of fact (coup rumors).

When all is said and done, China is authoritarian. No one denies that. My point is simple. East Asian Authoritarian governments have a good track record of uplifting millions out of poverty. Middle Eastern Authoritarian governments have a horrible track record of uplifting millions out of poverty despite a huge natural resource advantage.

Park Chung-hee did some horrible, horrible things in South Korea. He shot students, people disappeared, etc. For me, the end justifies the means. Don't like it? Immigrate. That's what hundreds of thousands of South Koreans did and hundreds of thousands of Chinese are doing now.

Sri wrote:
wong wrote:
Obviously, I was talking about an authoritarian economic development system (Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, pre-war Japan and 1 party post war Japan and now China) vs. Some pseudo-democrazy for poor countries.

You mean to say intelligent debates are not possible in China because it has authoritarian Government? And that is why Chinese posters behave here the way they do?

If the above is true... then why should we believe in stories you and Ashi and other like you post, since you yourself have implied that expecting intelligent debate with Chinese posters is wrong as they live in authoritarian countries.

And Wong ji how can you be so sure that if China was a democracy it would be worse then the CCP system?

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 28 Mar 2012 16:45

wong wrote:There is intelligent debate in China. The Blogosphere is huge and extremely active. Overly active as a matter of fact (coup rumors).

When all is said and done, China is authoritarian. No one denies that. My point is simple. East Asian Authoritarian governments have a good track record of uplifting millions out of poverty. Middle Eastern Authoritarian governments have a horrible track record of uplifting millions out of poverty despite a huge natural resource advantage.

Park Chung-hee did some horrible, horrible things in South Korea. He shot students, people disappeared, etc. For me, the end justifies the means. Don't like it? Immigrate. That's what hundreds of thousands of South Koreans did and hundreds of thousands of Chinese are doing now.

Wong Ji, please understand my objective was not to compare the 2 systems. I just feel it's highly unjust for people to criticize Indian system, when they do have the courage / rights / balls to criticize there own system. Like you so blatantly do.

You do not criticize China because you are afraid of consequences. You insult, degrade and loath India because you can and it makes you feel good and there is no other reason for that. You despise our democracy because you don't have it. If India succeeds because of democracy then there is no moral or rational argument you can make against your own impotency against your own system.

you know what is the basic difference? We may or may not do well economically, but our system will survive because we have the power to change it. But in China's case the minute the economical miracle story ends, it ends the current system and you are afraid what would happen because as I said you are impotent and do not control your own destiny.

PrasadZ · Post by **PrasadZ** » 28 Mar 2012 16:59

wong wrote:Obviously, I was talking about an authoritarian economic development system (Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, pre-war Japan and 1 party post war Japan and now China) vs. Some pseudo-democrazy for poor countries.

All of which happen to be single ethnicity, small population, islanded countries, innit?

care to name a large population (say 100 million), multi ethnic country prospering in an authoritarian system in the modern world ?
China is unique in succeeding the way it has. India is, pretty much, mainstream in modern political systems.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 28 Mar 2012 21:04

Sri, please hold off on the philosophical comparisons of the two systems. Been there, done that, banned the flamewar participants before... From past experience, it leads to nothing more than sidetracking a thread.

wong, do you mind elaborating on what's on the Chinese blogosphere on the topic ? I read someplace that sites like weibo have actice discussions going on despite the clampdown, using elaborate pseudonyms for various characters and banned words (like 'coup')

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 28 Mar 2012 21:14

Since we keep coming back to India, I’ll point out another thing the Panda posters miss.

India is a tropical country, the only large Tropical country in History to grow as rapidly and as fast. There is no precedent for what we are doing. India has a lot more to overcome as all modern systems have to be adapted to its conditions. Panda is able to steal technology, plug it into the power receptacle and immediately everything works. Not so in India. All the way down to a Chocolate bar everything has to be different. The best example is how the Panda supplied Turbines in Durgapur, Sagardhigi and Amartank are constantly breaking down, to the point of making them useless. They work fine in Temperate cool Panda land, not in hot, humid, dusty India. Apparently the Chinese technicians have thrown up their hands in frustration at the operating conditions.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 29 Mar 2012 08:57

Suraj wrote:Sri, please hold off on the philosophical comparisons of the two systems. Been there, done that, banned the flamewar participants before... From past experience, it leads to nothing more than sidetracking a thread.

Got the point Suraj Ji. And I agree, topic got side tracked.

vina · Post by **vina** » 29 Mar 2012 09:35

Don't like it? Immigrate. That's what hundreds of thousands of South Koreans did and hundreds of thousands of Chinese are doing now.

Ah, I see. Rather than revolt against the evil system and overthrow it , you want to EMIGRATE (not immigrate)! What if there are no other places that want to take you ?

As for "Ends Justifies The Means" , how do you know what the "ends" are going to be like , especially when the brutalizing is happening? How did the 1960s and 70s Chinese know that 1990s to 2000 was going to be like what it turned out when Mao Tse Dong and the Gang of Four were running the cultural revolution ? Talking about Deng Xiao Ping's reforms and the Shenzen /Pearl River detla would have seen you being executed! Mao never promised the kind of China you see today, in fact, exactly the opposite!

How did you know that S. Korea's Park was going to succeed and that the North was going to fail in the 60s and 70s ? Kim Il Sung and his successors did exactly a lot of things Park did and had their version of a Korean Utopia. Does the end justify the means in North Korea back in the 60s and 70s ? How about Cuba, how about Loas, how about a host of other countries (Albania) and of course your chief mentors and models, Stalinist Soviet Russia. Did the ends of the Soviet Union justify the means from 1920s to 1980s? Ask the Russians, ask, the Poles, Germans and a host of others who threw off tyranny and became free and you will get an honest answer, rather than the canned "gleat spaceclaft lift off and gleat warr of china crealy visible from space kind of rubbish" from a cowed down and captive population.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Mar 2012 09:49

The key question is can Japan use the same justification when it went all punk a$$ on China. After all it desperately needed resources and the ends justify the means....

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 29 Mar 2012 10:30

wong wrote:For me, the end justifies the means. Don't like it? Immigrate.

This provides a fascinating insight into the Chinese psyche (if wong is considered representative of that):

(1) Chinese citizens cannot even call China their own country since they have no rights to change anything - like wong said, you don't like it, emigrate! It looks like in China, we basically have a country full of men/women/children without a country! No wonder these fellows have no clue what freedom is. They think freedom starts and ends with the ability to spend $1000.- on a pair of expensive jeans.

(2) The End Justifies the Means: This explains it all why stolen technology is repeatedly parroted by our Chinese biladels on this thread as being examples of "Innovation". Just like freedom, they have no idea what innovation means.

Like I said, fascinating.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 29 Mar 2012 14:36

Raja bose re-discovering the joys of chiskology, I see...

amit · Post by **amit** » 29 Mar 2012 15:02

What Wong also conveniently misses is that in South Korea sustained development and innovation - the type companies like Hyundai and Samsung to name two do on a routine basis - happened after the country transitioned to a democratic form of government. Authoritarian govt are good at building infrastructure because a lot of hard decisions need to be taken which is very bothersome in democratic countries - things like pushing people out of their homes to make way for highways and airports.

But once that's done then value addition from innovation is not so easy to develop in an authoritarian system of governance where everyone is scared to articulate their opinion. Why do you think USSR collapsed? They were going along merrily as long as the low hanging fruits of development were available. But when they were taken and it had to compete with the US in ideas and innovation - well we all know what happened.

Innovation and new ideas thrive in an environment of free articulation. You can't have that in a authoritarian society.

And Wong seems to miss the fact that the first Asian country to do it all in modern times - Japan - never was authoritarian post World War. India has never been authoritarian since its recorded history!

China is in a classic Catch-22. To move to the next level it needs innovation. But to get that the CPC needs to let go. Rock and hard place anyone? :-0

And in the meantime, the mantra is beg, borrow or steal (with emphasis on steal) other people's ideas and innovation. If you don't like it you can always emigrate!?