India-US Strategic News and Discussion

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Apr 2012 02:09

There is an Indo-UK thread. Why not discuss all this over there?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 13 Apr 2012 02:18

nachiket wrote:There is an Indo-UK thread. Why not discuss all this over there?

More likely it belongs in inferiority complex dhaga started by shiv.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 13 Apr 2012 02:47

Garooda wrote:
lakshmikanth
You are also assuming and speculating at the best. I would love to respond to you in detail but just dont have the time to justify myself to you sirji or to derail this thread. Good luck.

Please do respond. I think your discussion is very relevant to this thread. The reason is it exposes biases that have been carefully implanted in your brain. And the reason why your brain is important is because you represent the generation of India that believes what has been thrust upon them and a lot of the members of that generations are going to be the future leaders of India.

I also leave open the possibility that the collective wisdom here might be wrong, and in that case this discussion in even more important. Because we would get a new perspective to look at. In either case, we emerge as more knowledgeable as a collective.

I believe its extremely important to educate. So.. please continue, I believe you are not derailing this thread.

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 13 Apr 2012 02:59

lakshmikanth, what are you saying? Our eminent newbie is a champion in many internet forums on India, and has established his mark in those forums. Now you want to study him like a guinea pig in BRF? What has this come to? You guys have no knowledge of what India and world are.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Apr 2012 03:49

Garooda wrote:
Stop crying about how and what the British did to the country. We all know who did what as a nation.

We all know and hence there is no need to add to what the British have done and already doing. There is no need for Indians to criticize Indians for this and that.
Nobody will stop you from posting whatever is good for the national interest. We dont want to bring British dirt here about Indian society.
It is also not about past atrocities. We see the affect of the partition to this day and to the current generation Indians now.

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 13 Apr 2012 05:04

lakshmikanth

The collective wisdom is not wrong. it is just fine. I would love to discuss what you believe are the facts about Indian History. I have to be out of town for work for couple of months. Until then keep accumulating the collective wisdom.

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 13 Apr 2012 05:09

paramu wrote:lakshmikanth, what are you saying? Our eminent newbie is a champion in many internet forums on India, and has established his mark in those forums. Now you want to study him like a guinea pig in BRF? What has this come to? You guys have no knowledge of what India and world are.

I never claimed that I know all the facts. If you think you have all the facts then share some instead of ridicules

You can also contribute if you're feeling left out

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 13 Apr 2012 05:10

Acharya wrote:
Garooda wrote:
Stop crying about how and what the British did to the country. We all know who did what as a nation.
We all know and hence there is no need to add to what the British have done and already doing. There is no need for Indians to criticize Indians for this and that.
Nobody will stop you from posting whatever is good for the national interest. We dont want to bring British dirt here about Indian society.
It is also not about past atrocities. We see the affect of the partition to this day and to the current generation Indians now.

Understood.

Garooda · Post by **Garooda** » 13 Apr 2012 05:12

I'm sure you'll miss me while I'm gone for work for next few months

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Apr 2012 07:02

Garooda wrote:.......

3 warnings. banned for a month.

Kaushal · Post by **Kaushal** » 13 Apr 2012 11:25

ramana wrote:CRS, There is a generation of expatriate Indians who left in late sixties-early 70s who have had the time to think this thru and are able to articulate the issues very clearly. Their time in West has cleared the Macaulayite nonsense force fed into their minds in the Nehruvian syncretic/synthetic myth of the India that is Bharat.

Kaushal, Anaath Das, parsuram all told us that very vision on this forum and get tagged as saffronites!
Some younger folks like Acharya, Brihaspati, Atri, Jambudwipa, Rudradev, even ArmenT(with his arms blog) are all articulating the Indian Narrative.

BTW, RM came to Bay Area and visited Kaushal's home to inaugurate his library and a whole galaxy of Bay Area members were there!

Ramana, we had a nostalgia meeting of old BRites at my Library last weekend and an i missed you there because apparently you are not in the bay area most of the time.Rajiv M had asked me to set up another meeting in the bay area. I said it would have to wait until i finish my evaluation for surgery (DBS_) Deep Brai stimulation where they dril 2 holes inmy brain and insert electrodes that wil stimulate the substantia nigra portion of the brain which controls a lot of the locomotor functions in the brains . i will know by the end of may whether i will be approved or not . if i am successful (there are 2 ifs here)it ewilll restore me to a substantial normality of my former self. so wish me luck.

What else is happening

1.My book on the Origins is bombing. nobody is buying it. there are many complaints,it is too bi. You can t read it as a relaxing thriller or novel.i see a couple of people here have read it. What is your view of the book. so i have decide to do 2 things
2.I iw recast the book as encyclopedia. It will be the same sixe but iyou will only have to read a couple of pages to get your information .

Also i will make available at a 10 $price range about 10 mongraphs

1, Th first one is called Aryabhata, Nilakanta, Samanta evolution - manner in which the indics shaped the origins of astronomy. it is about 70 pages long and will shortly be available in amazon. you can read it in scribd

2. THere will be other monographs one on 2. resources fior further study of the computational sciences in indian antiquity. 3. one on the Glossary of terms , 4. one on the Complete listing of all the people in the world who worked on astronomy and certain mathematical fields until the 17th century, 5.one on an introductory primer (idiots guide to ancient astronomy., 6. one on instruments, 7. one on the nakshatra system, 8. one on planetary motions - the comparison greek and indian models and finally 9. the Encyclopedia of ancient indian astronomy

3.I am interested in building and operating a planetarium in India

4. a publishing house
5. Institutes of advanced studies in various fields

MY latest take macaulaY is that he was even more daibolical than we imagined, he was not so much interested in making brown englishman out of the indians
but he wanted to set back India by a 100 years by introducing english.

The rel reason for Macaulay's minute on edcuation

But now we know that the reason why they had such a high opinion of India's technological prowess was that throughout our history India had a high reputation for technological prowess and they hoped to make a quick buck out of any easy answers they may find in the Veda and the associate books.

It is Bernard Cohn at the university of Chicago that first bought the attention of the western world to the role played by knowledge in Colonialism in his landmark publication Colonialism and its forms of knowledge While we in Asia are pretty blasé about this sort of thing (one Indian Muslim listener was totally unimpressed by my recounting of the Colonial effort at rewriting our history ; his response was 'What do you expect ' when you are conquered' in contrast to the average westerner who is convinced of the moral superiority of the west and tends to be shocked when told that theft was the Occupation of the East India Company . So getting the record straight is the first part of the effort and my book is a recounting of the theft and the vast epistemic rupture that accompanied the theft , that in turn was the result of denuding India of its Sanskritic. Heritage.

Having established that intellectual theft occurred on a fairly significant scale, it becomes easier for me to establish that the effort to remake the Indian in the image of the Conqueror, was not an altruistic one, where he wa concerned about the future competitiveness of his Indian subjects as Macaulay would have you believe in his minute on education but one designed to defang the intellectual in Indian society by making him start all over and turn him into a Baboo ( Bernard Cohn refers to this transformation in Indian Society although not in such Graphic terms).I am not saying that Indians were fooled by his minute on education, because the vast majority of the Indics were skeptical of his approach and intentions. But the critique was directed more at his assumptions rather than on his intentions .The assumption being that the Indian system of knowledge was inferior in every way to the Occidental system. But i am deeply skeptical that a man of such superlative attainments as Macaulay would have been so obtuse that he would have failed to see much that could be emulated in the Indian system. Now we know that the best kept secret during the colonial regime was the extraordinary number of intelligent individuals that studied the Indian system so thoroughly. So my contention is that he was far more prescient. He realized that left to their own devices, there would be a steady stream of Indic scholars that would challenge the British contention that India was just a jaded left over from the impregnations of a superior intellect which later came to mean the Aryans.

Now we know that the best kept secret during the colonial regime was the extraordinary number of highly talented Occidentals who studied India for nearly all of their adult Professional life so thoroughly that they spent a lifetime studying, and that is how Indology became a separate field of study.. So my contention is that he was far more prescient. He realized that left to their own devices, there would be a steady dissemination of Indic scholars that would challenge the British contention that India was just a jaded left over from the impregnations of a superior intellect which later came to mean he Aryans. See the quote I have of Rouse Ball where he expresses such a racist sentiment.

So you say, I have heard all of this before, that a large number Europeans studied India for their entire life. “I knew that. So what else is new It would be refreshing to admit that there is a large universe of thngs that one knows nothing about. But the real value of a factoid is the inferences he can make of it. So, here is the punch line of this story .

But first we have to place one more factoid on the table, namely that it was Macaulay who hired Friedrich Maximilian Mueller to translate the sacred books of the east , But herein lies the conundrum. If as he himself vociferously proclaims that the general knowledge of the Indics would draw the ridicule of school girls (the exact quotes can be found in My South Asia File appendix where I have reproduced also his minute on education but noteworthy here is the subtle gender put own.) and he feels that Sanskrit is not a language worth learning, so much so that he forced the entire population to learn English, what is he doing paying a Mediocre student of Sanskrit , the princely sum of 4000 shillings a year or 200 Pounds in the year 1860. At one time in my career i was offered 400 pounds (circa 1964) a year, so 2oo pounds in 1860 was a very comfortable wage and needless to say Ma Mueller retired a very rich and wealthy man.

But I hope by this time the light bulb has exploded and that the real reason why he wanted the intellectual leadership to switch to English was not out of concern for their well being an to integrate them in the English speaking world, but to prevent them from retaining their lead in Sanskrit an set them back by several generations, so that they would no longer be competitive and would undoubtedly be able to shape their heads so that their ideas would be consonant with helping the British run their empire.
I have often said that while the British did many things in India about which they should be ashamed they were not a particularly diabolical people. While this may be true of the population in general, the same cannot be said of the ruling classes We only saw the arrogant side of them but their diabolical nature was evident was evident on more than a few occasions. The three that come to mind, are

The widespread pogroms they unleashed on civilians in the aftermath of the unsuccessful 1857 Anglo Indian War, the utter callousness with which they handled the famines in India, and the truly diabolical plan to reduce an intellectually vibrant society to an illiterate and penurious one.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 13 Apr 2012 18:03

I had a rather interesting discussion with a very senior Diplomat who do not want to be identified.
He is NOT the type of babu, BRFites would like to punch on the face. I have invited him to our forum here.
I asked him why is India so passive when trying to protect its own interests?
He echoed a very familiar response but added something which needs further discussion.
It has been an opinion that India will not involve itself in other neighboring countries politics even if they interfere in ours because our pain threshold is much better than some of the smaller countries in South Asia. We do not want to stamp our authority on smaller countries in a hope that we will not be "influenced" by other big nations.
Well, This has been the thought process for a complete generation. However, things have changed dramatically in the last decade in our periphery which might need us to re-evaluate our earlier position.
Chinese assertiveness in South China sea has angered many nations in the area and are starting to align with India.
This opportunity has not got unnoticed in the south block. India it seams has taken some steps to increase its presence in the East.

I asked him if this was a deliberate attempt by US to divert us from looking towards West and make us lock horns with China to wear both us and China down?
If it smells like a fish it is a fish!
India will be made to lull with Pak and set sails in the Bay of Bengal.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Apr 2012 21:33

SRK-3,"at US Immigration"! There is something sick with the US system if it repeatedly insults a prominent Indian entering their country.They did it to APJ Kalam,a def. min. of India,diplomats ad nauseum.Past time for retaliation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Apr 2012 07:01

for SRK no, let them keep him. for APJ, GF yes.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Apr 2012 07:20

Singha wrote:for SRK no, let them keep him. for APJ, GF yes.

I would not put it beyond Islamist groups to "play" the US because US security is paranoid and stupid. The thing to do is to fill email and other communications with the name "Shah Rukh Khan" and "Abdul Kalam" knowing fully well that these channels are being monitored by the US. These people are promptly stopped by the US immediately giving rise to the impression that
1. Muslims are being targeted
2. Indian Muslims too must rise up against the US

The US is doing itself no favors.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 14 Apr 2012 07:53

Kaushal wrote:But I hope by this time the light bulb has exploded and that the real reason why he wanted the intellectual leadership to switch to English was not out of concern for their well being an to integrate them in the English speaking world, but to prevent them from retaining their lead in Sanskrit an set them back by several generations, so that they would no longer be competitive and would undoubtedly be able to shape their heads so that their ideas would be consonant with helping the British run their empire.

Kaushal,

What you said can be clearly seen in action, even today, among different segments of Indian society.

1. Dravidianists reject Sanskrit as an Aryan language and are succesful in making a section of population in TN to completely reject Sanskrit.
2. Dalit activists say that Sanskrit is a Brahminical language and reject that whenever they could.
3. Neo-Buddhists claim that Buddha's message was taught in Pali and Sanskrit was used by Brahmins who attacked Buddhism.
4. Modern pseudo-intellectuals claim that Sanskrit is dead and is morphed onto other venacular languages like Hindi, Marathi, Malayalam etc.
5. Urban elitist population see Sanskrit as some old man's language and prefer to use only English.

What they have succesfully achieved is to make different segments of Indian population to reject Sanskrit voluntarily and are happy about that. While they do it, they are doing everything to make it a European language and claim its ownership.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 14 Apr 2012 11:33

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:for SRK no, let them keep him. for APJ, GF yes.
I would not put it beyond Islamist groups to "play" the US because US security is paranoid and stupid. The thing to do is to fill email and other communications with the name "Shah Rukh Khan" and "Abdul Kalam" knowing fully well that these channels are being monitored by the US. These people are promptly stopped by the US immediately giving rise to the impression that
1. Muslims are being targeted
2. Indian Muslims too must rise up against the US

The US is doing itself no favors.

Shivji, Let us look at it from other perspective. You maybe Super-duper star in your country but if security staff has some info on you, they will detain you irrespective of your religion. Even Meera Shankar and GF were stopped and searched.
Unless you are exempted from search, you will be searched. We in Asian countries offer too much of deference to stars.
The job of security forces is to doubt everyone and spare none.
Anyways The open secret is that Muslims are specifically monitored because of obvious reason. How can one deny it. That is what profiling is all about. It is not only about Muslims from India.

OT If you ever travel from Delhi to Gurgaon and cross the toll, you will see sometimes drivers fighting/arguing with booth attendant for mere Rs.27 toll fee despite NHAI clearly enunciating who all are exempt. They too want exemption based upon political affiliation/Govt job/carrying big gun etc.

PS: and no this is not in defense of US

Kaushal · Post by **Kaushal** » 14 Apr 2012 12:42

shyam (are you one of the shyam's from the bay area). You are one of the few people i know that has 'GOT IT' It is a double barreled volley and lord Macaulay was one of the most devious practitioners of the art of keeping the british empire alive and running.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 14 Apr 2012 18:04

Kaushal, yes, I'm the same person.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Apr 2012 18:18

VikasRaina wrote:We in Asian countries offer too much of deference to stars.
The job of security forces is to doubt everyone and spare none.
Anyways The open secret is that Muslims are specifically monitored because of obvious reason. How can one deny it. That is what profiling is all about. It is not only about Muslims from India.

This is precisely why islamic extremists can "game" the US. Pakis have enough brains to do that. They are tech savvy and they know damn well that communication is monitiored. A general policy of using Muslim star names from India in "marked" communication channels as code words or as pseudonyms would serve the double purpose of deliberately causing the US system to be tripped. They know very well that anyone can be stopped. What better propaganda victory than making sure that well known "heroes" are stopped and humiliated "proving" that the US is anti-Muslim.

This is a ploy that was waiting to be exploited. Islamists have everything to gain by getting Indian Muslims to see their viewpoint. Not only does it add to the US's image, but it weakens any Indian political cosying up to the US.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 14 Apr 2012 18:32

^^^^
Along with the above also is once you are in the "immigration list" you are doomed to be checked in again and again.
It is very difficult to remove a name from the "list".
Hence SRK has to suffer all the searches.
Likely his name is entered in the "list".

IIRC he was first searched/interrogated a a few years back when there were a ring of baki folks who were investigated in chicago area for terrorism charges(money laundering etc). he was scheduled to participate in their concert.
He was strip searched, since then it has been normal for him.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Apr 2012 18:36

krisna wrote:^^^^
Along with the above also is once you are in the "immigration list" you are doomed to be checked in again and again.
It is very difficult to remove a name from the "list".

This is exactly how a bumbling, red tape laden bureaucracy works. Clearly the US is no longer immune to that label.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 14 Apr 2012 19:42

Singha wrote:for SRK no, let them keep him. for APJ, GF yes.

++1000. Did SRK not say the last time he was hounded that he will never visit US again? But that said, clearly SRK was profiled based on his race and religion.

I was watching some Indian TV channels on this episode where they had that profuse Uncle Tom Sadanand Dhiume on with a bold face state that there is no racial profiling in US. I liked the way Javed Akthar ask him if he has any Indian bone left.

One thing everybody talks about is how India is imbued with VIP culture, and stars like SRK are so adored, while in US everybody is equal, and thats why so much hue and cry over SRK's humiliation. Sorry, I find this argument disingenuous. In US, Hollywood stars are put on a pedestal along with Jesus Christ and worshiped. I doubt Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie would be humiliated the way SRK was. But then again, SRK should have known better, he should have stuck to his principle and never visited US as he mentioned. Or at least made his visit to Yale conditional that he won't be hounded at any airport. That way, he would have taken a stand.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 14 Apr 2012 19:46

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1269158

Partha has posted a link which details little more than we know.

some excerpts--

If it emerges that the actor arrived at New York’s White Plains airport on the wrong visa, New Delhi runs the risk of being accused of jumping the gun.

US homeland security department officials are unwilling to reveal what type of visa Khan used in his attempt yesterday to enter the US citing privacy rules which prohibit discussing individual immigration cases.
But it is clear from their conversations on background that US authorities would have been well within their rights to turn away the actor and refuse him entry into America altogether.

Since the purpose of his current visit to the US was to speak at Yale, Khan should have secured a “J” visa before leaving India. This category of visa is meant for academic exchange visitors. When Khan was similarly detained at a US airport in 2009, he should have arrived with an “” visa meant for artists invited to perform in America.

It is understood from multiple sources that Khan normally travels to America on a “B-1/B-2” visa which is used by most Indians arriving at US airports. This type of visa allows them to travel for pleasure, tourism, temporary business or medical treatment.

US embassies are more liberal in issuing “B-1/B-2” visas than other categories and they are popular among Indians because such visas are, more often than not, issued for a 10-year period. That eliminates the need for applicants to go through the cumbersome and expensive exercise of repeatedly applying for US visas.

From the point of view of US consular staff, the extended validity of “B-1/B-2” visas, the most popular category, relieves their workload and saves administrative expenses for the state department, a major factor in issuing such visas to Indian applicants for a decade each time.

Explaining the procedure in considerable detail, one official pointed out that journalists, such as this reporter, were told to get “I” category media visas while travelling with Indian Prime Ministers to the US even when they had valid “B-1/B-2” visas.

Although Indian ministers were quick to pander to popular sentiment and criticise the US government’s treatment of Khan, it is clear that Indian diplomats here are not getting into any tizzy on this issue, notwithstanding ministerial reaction back home which may suggest otherwise.

Fully aware that there are several aspects to the Khan episode and conscious of the possibility that immigration authorities in White Plains may have a water-tight case, Indian officials here are proceeding with caution.

Indian diplomats also must take into account another factor: Khan’s name appears to have raised the red flag when it was punched into the homeland security department’s computer.

After September 11, no immigration official will ignore such an alert even if George Washington himself had arrived at the immigration counter instead of Khan. It would be futile for Indian diplomats to argue that the Indian actor should be waved past them because of name recognition when his name alerts them of potential danger, howsoever false.

Islamophobia is a hard fact of contemporary American life and no amount of Indian protests over Khan or former President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam is going to change that.

About the "J" visa--

One homeland security department official said immigration agents often use their discretion and admit academic exchange visitors who arrive without the mandatory “J” visas, especially if they are in the US on a short visit as in Khan’s case, although they are subjected to detailed questioning.

Such discretion is used also when the visitor is not earning any study credit or getting a degree or a certificate for academic activity. This is partly because technically, a visitor using a “J” visa is required to have a “two-year home-country physical presence” after each visit. That could be interpreted to mean that the “J” visa holder must stay in his home country for two subsequent years and may not be allowed re-entry into the US during that period, a requirement that Americans are not keen to impose on people like Khan.

Many performers like him are reluctant to apply for the mandatory “” visa because the criteria for getting that visa have become increasingly rigorous in recent years. The New York Times reported two days ago that there had been a 25 per cent decline in people arriving on “” visas between 2006 and 2010 because of new restrictions.

So the culpability is on both sides.
DOH has not made it easier for people to get the correct type of visas. It is their own discretion to allow people inside usa. They can also have fun and detain people whom they want. These guys are also ordinary americans working for DOH. hence they do what they want.

When actors like Khan are allowed in for professional appearances in the US, assuming they arrive without the required visa, immigration officials are actually bending their own rules and doing the visitors a favour instead of simply sending them back.

Bull shit.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 14 Apr 2012 20:08

Guys, pardon my ignorance, but who is this US historian, Peter Hehs who is making news in India? After reading the following report from HT extending his visa for one more year, I did some poking around to learn more.

Apparently, he has written a book on Sri Aurobindo, in which he portrayed his holiness as some kind of "terrorist", and also a pervert for having an affair with someone who is considered the mother of the Ashram. Now, I am still learning, but with the Indian historian clowns like Romilla Thapar and Ramachandra Guha, western wannabe Indian media ducklings like Sagarika Ghosh and Nidhi Raazdan coming out full swing, batting for this guy, I am persuaded by those opposing him that this guy was up to some agenda.

Anybody knows more about Peter Heehs?

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 14 Apr 2012 22:49

CRamS wrote:
Singha wrote:for SRK no, let them keep him. for APJ, GF yes.
++1000. Did SRK not say the last time he was hounded that he will never visit US again? But that said, clearly SRK was profiled based on his race and religion.

I was watching some Indian TV channels on this episode where they had that profuse Uncle Tom Sadanand Dhiume on with a bold face state that there is no racial profiling in US. I liked the way Javed Akthar ask him if he has any Indian bone left.

One thing everybody talks about is how India is imbued with VIP culture, and stars like SRK are so adored, while in US everybody is equal, and thats why so much hue and cry over SRK's humiliation. Sorry, I find this argument disingenuous. In US, Hollywood stars are put on a pedestal along with Jesus Christ and worshiped. I doubt Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie would be humiliated the way SRK was. But then again, SRK should have known better, he should have stuck to his principle and never visited US as he mentioned. Or at least made his visit to Yale conditional that he won't be hounded at any airport. That way, he would have taken a stand.

CRamS, It is not about profiling or hounding Indians. It is about following and applying rule to all foreigners. You can't compare Pitts and Crusies and others because here we are taking about a foreigner entering USA and what has race got to do with it anyways.
How many stories you read about evens WASP's on no-flying list in USA. That is the way the country operates.
Not traveling to US is in SRK's hands, but someone was trying to humiliate him knowingly is stretching the argument far too much.
As far equal-equal, equal Al Gore was pulled aside and searched and so was I once upon a time.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 15 Apr 2012 01:35

Its no use blaming the US immigration authorities. They are just doing their job. SRK got flagged because of the company he keeps(Knowingly or Unknowingly).
During his detention the first time i remember reading that he was held for questioning as he was associated with/was supposed to do a stage show in Dubai and one of the organizers of that show was involved in very shady dealings.The Morani brothers name had popped up then.Interestingly Morani brothers name also came up in the 2G telecom Scam when Shahid Balwa was arrested.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 15 Apr 2012 01:47

OT alert:

A rare post from Kaushal himself.

My sincere best wishes for you. Hope you recover soon.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 15 Apr 2012 04:09

Video - Vali Nasr on the US, Afghanistan and Pakistan (Complete)

NEW YORK, April 12, 2012 — Recently appointed Dean of the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies Vali Nasr looks at the mounting strains in the relationship between the U.S., Pakistan, and Afghanistan, in conversation with Saeed Shafqat, an expert in South Asian studies and former Columbia University professor. Moderated by Georgetown University's Christine Fair. (1 hr., 20 min.)

Introductory remarks -

1. Christine Fair opens by subtly blaming the US policy of preferential treatment of India pushing Pakistan for creating the mess in A'stan. According to her, Indo-US Nuclear Deal and providing India the space to operate in A'stan forced Pakistan to behave in the way it has behaved. (I'm surprised she hasn't said that if India were to withdraw unilaterally from Kashmir and Siachen, there will be peace in South Asia. )

2. Saeed Shafqat says Af-Pak is a wrong policy and US policy makers should delink Pakistan from A'stan. He says that one can partially expect that Pakistan is the most dangerous place in the world but this narrative must change in academic and policy circles.

3. Mr. Vali Nasr says that US administration is clueless on Pakistan and we are yet to figure out if A'stan is more important than Pakistan or vice-versa. He says President Obama will go to the Chicago Conference in May and say we won but the truth of the matter is Taliban will be back in Kabul soon after we leave. Pakistan is the single biggest factor for that failure. Mr. Nasr continues that Pakistan has followed a very wrong policy from late 70s and even before - the bug of India. A'stan doesn't matter, its Pakistan that matters and the trends in Pakistan are very negative. Richard Holbrooke once said if we don't watch out Pakistan we would be dealing with a 300 million strong Gaza strip by 2050.

Fixing Pakistan is a strategic priority. We are just trying to get Pakistan to co-ooperate in A'stan, we're not per se interested in Pakistan and this is a failure of American policy.
....

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 15 Apr 2012 05:13

Kaushal wrote:shyam (are you one of the shyam's from the bay area). You are one of the few people i know that has 'GOT IT' It is a double barreled volley and lord Macaulay was one of the most devious practitioners of the art of keeping the british empire alive and running.

Kaushalji, nice to hear from you.

I was visiting the indicstudies website and I found a wealth of information. However the pages are not rendered nicely in Google Chrome. I hope you can find someone to help the presentation of web-pages; there are many on BR who should be able to help.

I found the link on HinduEthics very interesting. For most of us following the dharmic traditions, the focus seems to be on Dharma and Karma; the theological basis is rarely taught or discussed. I feel we need this "Cliff Notes" versions which capture the big picture structure and it needs to be widely circulated.

I am going OT, but the more I think about what I call the lack of activism or blase acceptance of the status quo, is due to the absence of an institution like the "Church"; perhaps we need a dharmic church which can put the power of a well structured organization to spread the message of sanatan dharma.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Apr 2012 06:49

Vipul wrote:Its no use blaming the US immigration authorities. They are just doing their job. SRK got flagged because of the company he keeps(Knowingly or Unknowingly).

It is interesting how the boot is now on the other foot. In the early/mid 90s a cousin of mine was visiting India. Both of us had left India at the beginning of the 80s to the UK. I returned to India and he went on to the US.

After many joyous family reunions the time came for him to leave and he told me "How stupid things are in India. Imagine - I have to be in the airport 2 hours ahead of schedule. Why can't "we" Indians learn efficiency? Two weeks ago when I got on to the flight here at xyz airport in America all I did was check in my bags even before I entered the airport and I was there just before the flight was due to leave." To him, the idea of Indians doing their job at the airport seemed like inefficiency that required bitter criticism and a lecture about how good it was in the USA.

It took 9-11 to change some minds. And the US has been changed forever. By Osama bin Laden and the same people whose company SRK is alleged to keep knowingly or unknowingly. Is there an element of sour grapes in the way the US deals with this? Sore losers? Anger and denial at the way an ungli was put in and the exceptional cockiness drained out by a bunch of ragheads who refuse to be defeated?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Apr 2012 12:25

Quoting my own post:

shiv wrote: This is precisely why islamic extremists can "game" the US. Pakis have enough brains to do that. They are tech savvy and they know damn well that communication is monitiored. A general policy of using Muslim star names from India in "marked" communication channels as code words or as pseudonyms would serve the double purpose of deliberately causing the US system to be tripped.

IM boss's SRK love may be behind the Bollywood star's US ordeal

AHMEDABAD: One of Shah Rukh Khan's ardent fans may be behind the Bollywood star getting special attention from security officials at airports in the US. Terrorist Riyaz Bhatkal, accused in the 2008 Ahmedabad serial blasts, loves using the star's name as his alias, apparently because he admires the actor.

This is known to intelligence agencies. The Interpol red corner notice for the founder-member of Indian Mujahideen (IM), associated with Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), records that the wanted terrorist could be travelling as a passenger called Shah Rukh Khan. Sources say this may be one reason why security officials go into high-alert mode whenever the Bollywood star lands on US soil.

All international airports keep a database of criminals wanted by Interpol. It alerts officers each time a traveller's name matches that of a wanted man.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 15 Apr 2012 14:12

Shiv, There is no denying fact that we do tend to criticize India and put Khan on high pedestal more often than not. We are learning that Khan can be wrong and we right sometimes but it is happening slowly.
As far as SRK detention is concerned, I think it is a non-news which is being given too much of hype. I am sure lot of foreigners visiting India have been stopped at the airport for questioning and no one raised a stink.
Big deal if SRK was stopped at a US airport. Lets accept that the world has changed forever and things like this would happen once in a blue moon.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Apr 2012 16:04

VikasRaina wrote: As far as SRK detention is concerned, I think it is a non-news which is being given too much of hype. I am sure lot of foreigners visiting India have been stopped at the airport for questioning and no one raised a stink.
Big deal if SRK was stopped at a US airport. Lets accept that the world has changed forever and things like this would happen once in a blue moon.

But India is making a noise about SRK. People may think it is nothing but SRK is probably a net foreign exchange earner and an Indian who makes a difference to Indians in places like Algeria, Libya, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Sudan, KSA, Dubai, Bahrain, Yemen, Egypt, Malaysia, Thailand, Japan, Turkey, and parts of Europe and South America. To Indians he is a VIP even if Americans do not give a flying fuk about him. But then again America is such an important country that no other country matters.

India is making a big deal and asking America to do something about it. What is the US going to do about it? Time will tell, because if it happens again there will be even more noise next time. I personally do not see anything wrong with making a noise and not taking it lying down.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Apr 2012 17:21

after the london train bombings, journalists interviewing the 'muslim yoof' in tower hamlets or bradfordistan usually encountered aliases featuring bollywood star names, and were none the wiser about the significance of the names given by the people they were interviewing
sounds like its become islamist SOP to use bolly-khan pseudonyms

just like the 'belief' that by 2050 the whole world will become muslim...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Apr 2012 17:41

Lalmohan wrote: sounds like its become islamist SOP to use bolly-khan pseudonyms

I am certain that a passenger with a name like Johnny Depp would raise no eyebrows in India unless he was on a list. The name SRK certainly would stand out. But a chap sitting in the US would laugh his ass off at the stupidity if the celebrity Johnny Depp was repeatedly held up in immigration in India and detained on suspicion of being a terrorist. From the US viewpoint any fule shud no that Johhny Depp is too obvious a name for a terrorist to use and once the Indians have discovered that he is a star they could at least keep a photo of him with his biometrics to make sure they don't take the same guy again and again. What is the use of biometrics if the same chap especially a person who leads his life in full public view is caught again and again and treated as a fugitive on the run or trying to slip into the US unannounced?

If a guy is a celebrity in another country and travels a lot and the biometrics are right there to look at there should be no problem at all. If they keep getting the same celebrity they are incompetent.

There is, however, a more kind take. They are paranoid. And because they are paranoid the US is a safer place today than ever before. Pakis get full marks for converting a free society into one with all the hallmarks of a police state. The US is looking like what the USSR was accused of being.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 15 Apr 2012 18:05

>>There is, however, a more kind take. They are paranoid. And because they are paranoid the US is a safer place today than ever before. Pakis get full marks for converting a free society into one with all the hallmarks of a police state. The US is looking like what the USSR was accused of being.

not defending the US , but I don't feel that way.. I mean aaam amreeki feels quite free...I and a majority Indians have had no problems in the immigration . I don't like the way they frisk on airports , but yet that is something I can live with ...

Ideal response for India would be tit-for-tat ..For instance any passenger named David Headley turns up from US , we should torture the guy at immigrations.. If amreekis make noise than we should also say saari ,, we thought he was the other headley onlee..

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 15 Apr 2012 18:20

shiv wrote:<snip>
What is the use of biometrics if the same chap especially a person who leads his life in full public view is caught again and again and treated as a fugitive on the run or trying to slip into the US unannounced?

If a guy is a celebrity in another country and travels a lot and the biometrics are right there to look at there should be no problem at all. If they keep getting the same celebrity they are incompetent.

There is, however, a more kind take. They are paranoid. And because they are paranoid the US is a safer place today than ever before. Pakis get full marks for converting a free society into one with all the hallmarks of a police state. The US is looking like what the USSR was accused of being.

Very true.
DOH officials manning the airports and other places are like any other aam amrikans. No different.
Many are afraid that if some "real" terrorists get in ,they will be scr*rw*d for life. Hence the safety behind paranoia.
Even though they know that the real SRK is not a fugitive they cannot/do not remove his name.
What if in future something happens.

This more often happens if the guy is non white in amrika (despite what MUTUs believe in).
Of course being a muslim is a huge huge risk not to frisk him.
what to do --DOH are onlee doing their scared duty for khan. They are helpless due to the trap they are in.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Apr 2012 20:42

not true, everyone is fingerprinted on entry to the US and often photographed, that means they have SRK's biometric info on file. unless their stupid process picks him up as being on their register (without a reason) they should know better

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 15 Apr 2012 21:22

shiv wrote:If a guy is a celebrity in another country

End of discussion. All systems and policies are set up for the benefit of American citizens first and American residents second. Since 9/11, Americans expect anyone fitting the profile of the attackers to be scrutinized. SRK and other foreigners have more of a chance to be treated better by the USG if he gives up his India passport for a USA passport.

Indian systems on the other hand are set up for the benefit of foreigners first, citizens second. Whether this is due to long standing beliefs, because elites need to curry favor with foreigners, or simply because foreigners are seen as a meal ticket, it results in cognitive dissonance.