Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Apr 2012 08:21

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... s-a-dwarf/

China to India: You Call That Tiny Thing A Missile?

India’s launch of a ballistic missile said to be capable of reaching Beijing isn’t getting quite the reaction Indians sought — at least not in public.The Atlantic Wire offers quotes from official Chinese publications pouring scorn on what they call a “dwarf missile” from a “backward” country. The BBC is also picking up the story, offering press commentary from both countries on the missile that Indians enthusiastically label a “China killer” and Chinese dismiss as an irrelevance.
China’s Foreign Ministry, meanwhile, rose above the fray, with a spokesman blandly noting that India and China are partners, not rivals.
So that should be that, then.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Apr 2012 08:24

Again lots of nuggets here.

Posting in full:
Agni-V trials in final configuration to begin early next year

The first of the six flight trials of India' longest range ballistic missile, Agni-V, in its final quick-reaction configuration, providing a canister-launch capability, will be held in early 2013.

While in Thursday's successful maiden flight, the three-stage missile blasted off from a rail mobile launcher at Wheeler Island, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has already made a lot of progress to meet the Army's requirement to provide a canister-based launch from a road mobile vehicle.

With the mission validating the design of Agni-V, the next step is to provide the canister-launch capability, Avinash Chander Chief Controller, R&D, (Missiles and Strategic Systems), DRDO, told The Hindu. Pointing out that canister-launch capability was already demonstrated for 700 km range Shourya missile and BrahMos cruise missile, he said “those technologies will get up-scaled.”

“With canister, you can virtually stop and launch.” Operational flexibility would increase multi-fold, reducing the reaction time, he added.

Missile ejection tests

Mr. Chander said the DRDO had set up a facility for “missile ejection tests” at Shamirpet near Hyderabad, for carrying out a canister-launch simulation by placing a dummy missile. The first road mobile launcher being produced by the private industry would be ready next month and the missile ejections tests would begin from June.

With the Agni-V missile scheduled to be inducted into the Army in the next few years, he said, six flight tests, including three pre-induction trials, would be conducted.

So, Singha-saar's doubts about TEL for A-5 are cleared here. We should be having one by next month!!! I am guessing it is a variant TATA carrier displayed at Defexpo?

Also, great that we are already testing canister launches in a dummy facility! Great stuff...

Referring to the successful launch, he said this was the first time that the maiden flight took place within three years of starting the design for any missile of the DRDO.

The ASL had developed the solid propulsion system, including the composite rocket motor casings for the second and third stages and the carbon-carbon composite heat shields for the missile's re-entry vehicle.

Stating that the DRDO would develop “intelligent” and “manoeuvring” warheads for futuristic missiles, Mr. Chander said: “You have to upgrade weapons. We can't afford to relax.”

The intelligent warheads would be capable of assessing the risk while in flight and take evasive counter-measures.

“Those are warheads of tomorrow and the work has to start today.”

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Apr 2012 08:33

So the RV is also new design! See the part about CC for the heat shield. That is high funda stuff.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 23 Apr 2012 08:37

A tiny 250-350 kt TN warhead needs to be tested to go into that dwarf Agni V missile. The arrogance of these SOBs is amazing.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Apr 2012 08:46

when we write our own software, there is no bloody stux in the net can happen.
--

btw, the soviets have the largest megaton tested - 50Mega T.. now that was itself a down-scaled one.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2012 08:52

Can a RV detect that its being painted by X-band radar using fighter a/c style RWR antenna around the body and trigger a evasive burst of the thruster as per some defensive algorithm?

surely if the ABM radars can detect and track RV and missiles, the radar waves must be getting through the "plasma" around the nose and bouncing back to the sender. its been alleged radio comms is blacked out due to this plasma, then how are ABM radars doing it?

I say we put Spectra onto the A5+ RV , it can even give the bearing and ranging info passively using rwr I believe....

regarding "dwarf missile" its big enough to shaft anyone....remember the Vamana avatar of Vishnu...heh heh...and I would so love if we made Midgetman variant of Agni technology for the single warhead delivery role out to 10,000km...and paraded that down Rajpath....all weak 12m of it with the media and PYT groupies screaming beijing killa beijing killa and throwing their spagetti tops on it in hero worship rockstar style

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 23 Apr 2012 08:53

Ramana's comment above is perceptive. India has deliberately restricted the announced range to be china specific. It has established its western alliance credentials. Almost certainly had American indulgence if not blessings.

The Indian commentary has been much too excitable. The best comments have been from Avinash Chander and Arunachalam's piece-sedate, factual and professional. No specific mention of China. I personally find Saraswat's style too blunt but that may be deliberate as the Chinese seem to be a not too subtle culture.

I can hardly wait until the hangar doors of that secret Kerala facility open to reveal the RLV.

They have also pointedly let slip that the hypersonic engine has been tested at Mach 6. Interesting times ahead.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2012 08:59

this mach6 engine is for brahmos2. Mr Sivathanu Pillai is back in DRDO family as chief controller R&D btw.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Apr 2012 09:01

With a composite structure, it should reduce the radar signature. And, the angle of deflection should be at least 45* away using a conical deflection design[angle from ground based radar/approx]. And those angles detecting from sides should be actually worthless since the detonation will happen in few seconds after such detection.

I doubt ABM radars can detect a well designed RV., especially if reflectors (internal shapes) are angled away to not return back.
I don't know if mmw or l bands can do anything, as RV detection to destruction is all over in 2 mins.

The detection has to happen mid-course or at boost phase/\.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Apr 2012 09:04

GD, There is Vamana in the future too! In three steps it covers the earth, sky and the PRC head.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2012 09:10

per Google earth, beijing and shanghai are nearly equidistant from Trivandrum - 5200 and 5100km.
Hainan island is 3700km

so the 5000km test is just the right distance...

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Apr 2012 09:11

I think RVs in any case have an irrefutable upper hand over all sorts of ABM systems as in if the incoming missile is not intercepted in it's boost phase or even mid course phase once the MIRV bus injects the RVs into their re entry paths there is simply too little time left for any system to discern the actual warhead from a decoy i.e. all the RVs will have to be intercepted.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Apr 2012 09:16

I would say, if we have built less detectable, and with flex nozzle RVs, then we don't need decoys.. why waste an expensive launch on decoys.. get the job done fast and quick!

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Apr 2012 09:21

The '5000km' range is for land based missiles only with PRC as target, when we get to the point of having BM mated with subs, we still need to upgrade to 10,000km+ but can still claim it all PRC specific. At that point in our development and deployment a widely patrolled sub with even just a 5000km range missile can still be considered a theoretical threat to the west.

Limiting ourselves to 5000km eternally for submarine BM, limits them as they have to get close in range to PRC shores for second strike capability. So we will need the full blown range capability declared and tested as soon as we start putting in the full triad. There is no escape from it, and the west will have to understand that and accept it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Apr 2012 09:24

correct, and all the more reason to stick with A5 - Tessy naming. The number 5 should be retained.

A5-series can begin operations. All under the number of 5.. all we need is to satisfy our defence that we need to adjust to this A5 strategy, and play low till we qualify to write our own UNSC rules.

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Apr 2012 09:25

If the world fears Surya; we shall give it to them.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Apr 2012 09:28

negi, not the world; if PRC thinks A-V is a SDRE with limited range, we will have to give them the full range option.

They just asked for it, no ?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Apr 2012 09:37

India can keep churning out China ( North, East, West, South, Central, NE, SE ) specific A5 versions like
A 5.1
A 5.2
A5.3..... etc
And keep shouting about the arm race betweem 2 regional powers India and Chuhina.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Apr 2012 09:40

No, we need to specific.. and driven by requirements.

Bade is right.. we just drafted a new requirement. They have asked for something to be delivered.

Next, they would complain it can't reach multiple cities in single launch. So, plan that version too based on requirements.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 23 Apr 2012 10:48

Rony wrote:Nalapat is acting as a 'useful idiot' for the chinese for their anti-India drivel. He regularly appears in CCTV english and spouts krishna memonsqe BS.In one of the CCTV program he was saying that china is a big brother of Asia, India should not not spend more on defence and other such nonsence. No wonder his chinese hosts like him a lot. He is similar to M.k.badrakumar.

I would not be so harsh on him. He does the useful service of pandering to their ego. Talk is cheap. We need people like him to engage them, flatter them, talk them up, assure them of our lasting desire to look up to them... And then do things that are completely opposite, like the A-V test. There's no sense in belittling him, or underestimating the level of political and bureaucratic backing for our actions. Despite the massive fifth column and leftist support for them, our actual actions have taken a very different direction.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2012 10:54

presumably the K4 tubes on arihant are sized for 2.4m ..up from the 2m of A3/A5 family. a fat tube and all-composite stages should permit a shorter missile than A5, retaining similar range, while having the 3rd stage diameter to wrap the warheads around the core 3rd stage is in most modern SLBM. but nature this "circle of warheads" around the 3rd stage is a MIRV thing even if we use just 1 live warhead and rest inert dummies to balance the weight.

its a very challenging project and 1 step up from the A5 tech level for sure.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 23 Apr 2012 11:16

India all set to develop resusable rockets: DRDO chief

After the successful launch of Agni-5 Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM), India is all set to develop reusable rockets which will combine the technologies of both ballistic and cruise missiles.

As part of plans to develop reusable ballistic missiles, Defence Research and Development Organisation will test indigenously developed scram jet engine next year, DRDO Chief V K Saraswat said in an interview to Doordarshan.

"We have propulsion technology, we have re-entry technologies, we have the technology which can take a re-entry system which will deliver a payload and have yet another re-entry system which will bring the missile back when it re-enters the atmosphere on its return journey," he said.

"We have demonstrated the performance of a scram jet engine operating at Mach six speed (six times the speed of sound)," he said.

On the range of Agni-5 missile which was scuccessfully test-fired recently off Odisha coast, the DRDO chief said with moderate modifications, "it can be extended to any range which is of our interest."

On technological capability available with the agency, he said, "DRDO has built the necessary technologies, production infrastructure and design capability for developing a booster or a sustainer... We have the capability to develop a re-entry nose cone which can withstand higher temperature and velocity."

Reacting to reports that India does not possess sufficient indigenous technology for missile guidance systems, Saraswat said Agni-5 has used a completely indigenous and high precision missile guidance system with "0.001 degrees of per hour accuracy."

On criticism that DRDO sometimes does not live up to expectations, he said the agency was as good as its counterparts in advanced countries.

"Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), F-18 and Eurofighter took similar number of years and cost wise they were three times more than what we have put in our LCA," he said.

On development of Kaveri engine, Saraswat said it too has performed well and was, "flown an IL-76 aircraft in Russia, 55 hours of successful flight... We are going to upgrade it so that it can be used in India's LCA Mark-II and future systems."

Full Interview on 25th April at 3.30 PM IST on DDNEWS.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 23 Apr 2012 11:27

Guys,

That part in the globaltimes about west beginning to enjoy a possible dual between india and china is correct. Any war between india/china will benefit the west. But that does not mean that india should not build capability and capacity to inflict pain on china.

First look at the size of our arsenal. Then compare that with china+pakistan's land mass. That's pure MAD capability. That is what india should aim for.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 23 Apr 2012 12:19

^^^ Who knows the size of the Agni arsenal? Where did MAD come from?

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 23 Apr 2012 14:16

Singha wrote:K4 tubes on arihant are sized for 2.4m

nice ... at 2.4m, the "fat" tube would contain ~ 45% more volume for the same length of the tube.
this means that the SLBM could be made ~45% shorter any yet contain the same volume of fuel.
@ 2.3m width, the volume increase per unit lenght it still ~33% => ~33% reduction in length
@ 2.2m width, this changes to ~20%.
or is the 2.4m tube meant to accomodate a 2m missile while maintaining the reqd tolerances (20cm all around the bullet)?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2012 14:29

dont know about how tight the missile has to be, but we need a SLBM of max 11.5 m length to be accomodated in a smooth hump, else we will need a hugely expensive big SSBN or have the ugly fat hump of the Jin/Delta class. add 1.5m for the subs bottom hull and doors on top.

if A5 is 17m, K4 needs a nearly 40% shortening in length....if A5 is 20m, it needs 45%....

looking at the trident, its a challenging masterpiece of packaging and compactness...note now the 3rd stage is a internal core with warheads in a circle around it. it comes in @ 13.5m which with the big ohio class subs results in ZERO hump.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/slbm/d5_19.gif
diameter seems to be 2.1m...the light 1st stage plays a role in keeping it small imo.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Apr 2012 14:32

Avinash Chander had already mentioned that SLBM will be of 2.4 m diameter , it will be shorter than A-5 but more fatter stages. Reduce length and increase dia of SLBM

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Apr 2012 14:37

Check out R-39 SS-N-20 solid fuel SLBM which was on typhoon , 16 m in length , 2.4 m in diameter , carries 10 MIRV , throw up weight of 2.5 T .

amit · Post by **amit** » 23 Apr 2012 14:39

Excuse a noobie question.

If we're going to have A5s in cannisters, doesn't that mean that the warhead will be kept mated to the missile? If so does that signal a shift in India's stance of having demated warheads?

Of course I understand once the Arihant starts deterrence patrols it must have mated warheads.

koti · Post by **koti** » 23 Apr 2012 15:00

amit wrote:Excuse a noobie question.

If we're going to have A5s in cannisters, doesn't that mean that the warhead will be kept mated to the missile? If so does that signal a shift in India's stance of having demated warheads?

Till now mating might be a 2-3 step process.
1. Fixing the warhead with the missile
2. Loading the Missile with fuel(Prithvi for Eg)
3. Loading the Missile on the TEL
Go!

Now it becomes a one step process.
1. Fix the canister on the TEL.
Go!

I don't see a reason for a posture change WRT NFU. Even now, I believe it is reasonable to suspect some fully mated N launch vehicles are on standby given our threat perception.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Apr 2012 15:03

From tarmak:

At the Hyderabad airport, the Agni team members were taken by surprise when hundreds gathered to welcome them soon after they landed from Bhubaneswar at 8.50 pm. “This was something that we haven't experienced before. We were lifted like heroes and offered garlands, bouquets and sweets,” a senior DRDL official said.
Sources said that DRDO brought all the non-officer cadre staff from Bhubaneswar to Hyderabad in two AN-32 aircraft. “This was a special gesture as we wanted all the DRDO team members to be back in Hyderabad on the same day to be with their families and celebrate,” sources said.

These small gestures do really stick for a long time in the employees memory and will be a great morale-booster.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 23 Apr 2012 15:19

sum wrote:From tarmak:
At the Hyderabad airport, the Agni team members were taken by surprise when hundreds gathered to welcome them soon after they landed from Bhubaneswar at 8.50 pm. “This was something that we haven't experienced before. We were lifted like heroes and offered garlands, bouquets and sweets,” a senior DRDL official said.
Sources said that DRDO brought all the non-officer cadre staff from Bhubaneswar to Hyderabad in two AN-32 aircraft. “This was a special gesture as we wanted all the DRDO team members to be back in Hyderabad on the same day to be with their families and celebrate,” sources said.

These small gestures do really stick for a long time in the employees memory and will be a great morale-booster.

Only concern is on the security. These are our best and brightest and always in targets of forces inimical to India. Contact in such close quarters is something that needs to be re-looked at. I remember when Vishy came to Chennai airport at night 2 AM after winning the match against Topalov, the police wouldn't let anyone near him or his family. Even the press was not allowed questions. I had to say my "Congrats" to Vishy from far away, the gentleman that he is turned around and acknowledged me with a smile and a nod. The midnight trip to the airport to wish Vishy "in person" was well worth it.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 23 Apr 2012 15:47

sum wrote:From tarmak:
At the Hyderabad airport, the Agni team members were taken by surprise when hundreds gathered to welcome them soon after they landed from Bhubaneswar at 8.50 pm. “This was something that we haven't experienced before. We were lifted like heroes and offered garlands, bouquets and sweets,” a senior DRDL official said.
Sources said that DRDO brought all the non-officer cadre staff from Bhubaneswar to Hyderabad in two AN-32 aircraft. “This was a special gesture as we wanted all the DRDO team members to be back in Hyderabad on the same day to be with their families and celebrate,” sources said.

These small gestures do really stick for a long time in the employees memory and will be a great morale-booster.

Exactly, well said, we need more such novel thoughts/gestures in DRDO/L / Govt research agencies.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Apr 2012 15:52

Yogi_G wrote: Only concern is on the security. These are our best and brightest and always in targets of forces inimical to India. Contact in such close quarters is something that needs to be re-looked at. I remember when Vishy came to Chennai airport at night 2 AM after winning the match against Topalov, the police wouldn't let anyone near him or his family. Even the press was not allowed questions. I had to say my "Congrats" to Vishy from far away, the gentleman that he is turned around and acknowledged me with a smile and a nod. The midnight trip to the airport to wish Vishy "in person" was well worth it.

True but my comment was more for the An-32 being arranged for the non-officer staff to reach home early. Really liked that touch.

Hope the CAG doesn't pull this up as a waste of money in next report!!

BrijeshB · Post by **BrijeshB** » 23 Apr 2012 15:55

Bade wrote:negi, not the world; if PRC thinks A-V is a SDRE with limited range, we will have to give them the full range option. They just asked for it, no ?

Not now

. coz that's their real intention behind this dwarf game they are playing now.

BrijeshB · Post by **BrijeshB** » 23 Apr 2012 16:03

Singha wrote:presumably the K4 tubes on arihant are sized for 2.4m ..up from the 2m of A3/A5 family. a fat tube and all-composite stages should permit a shorter missile than A5, retaining similar range, while having the 3rd stage diameter to wrap the warheads around the core 3rd stage is in most modern SLBM. but nature this "circle of warheads" around the 3rd stage is a MIRV thing even if we use just 1 live warhead and rest inert dummies to balance the weight.

its a very challenging project and 1 step up from the A5 tech level for sure.

singhasir, I think we have forgot one important note in all these discussions about A5 size and range by merely comparing only its dimensions with other ICBM's in the world

.

does anybody here deliberately forgot this 40% EXTRA technology..

?

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... sile-range

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 23 Apr 2012 16:43

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=18003

DRDO Chief Dr. VK Saraswat said that the work on the naval variant of the Long Range Strategic Missile (a moniker given by India to the Agni-V launched on April 20) was in "advanced" stage.

With indigenous nuclear-attack submarine, INS Arihant (meaning destroyer of enemies) ready to get operational in another two years time, the DRDO Chief assured that when the nuke submarine comes out it will come out with all weapons. "There will be no gap," said the DRDO Chief.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 23 Apr 2012 17:09

Additionally, from the above article

The next test of Agni-V is scheduled for later this year. Before that the DRDO will work to canisterise the missile to give it more flexibility. The April 20 test launch was done from a modified Agni-3 launcher. The canister system is necessary to make the missile road or rail mobile. A rail or road mobile missiles first takes off to a certain altitude and then gets ignited fully.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 23 Apr 2012 17:14

The Arms Race Myth

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 23 Apr 2012 18:19

Brijesh: Is there any report or hint that such technology was employed in the Agni 5 test?