Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 18 May 2012 12:05

nelson wrote:All punishments of recordable nature, awarded by DCM & GCM to Commissioned officers (including JCOs) are published in the Gazette of India Part - 1.

Part 1 - Section 2 may have the details, I guess. But it costs INR 6000 odd to subscribe to this part of the Gazette as per this link. So for the mango man, news reports would be the only available means.

But, why are we talking of punishment, only after a media trial. Let the law take its own course, and we all know that the course is shorter and stricter for Army personnel.

I am not saying that punishments should be given based on medial trial. The army has acknowledged the incident (but not in toto on what the media reported). So then I would wait for the follow up on the incident and the final report which the Army would give out (to the media, as no one would buy the official gazette just to see what happened in this case).

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 May 2012 13:08

The gazette is online and free of cost. CIC order mandates publisher of gazette to make it accessible and affordable.

http://egazette.nic.in/weeklysearch.asp ... d3128a2c82

I don't expect you to visit the above page to search for the details. But it is the duty of media to report. Or is it asking for too much?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 May 2012 13:15

peter wrote:Ofcourse it has to be fired multiple times to test it with real ordinance else it might be dead on arrival.

Prove it that it is tested by OFB multiple times. How do you know that?

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 May 2012 13:39

^The site requires some patience, but orders published in Gazette of India since 2002 are accessible. I have searched and downloaded quite a few issues of interest.

I meant to say that the general public is not expected to visit the link for their dose of news but the media is expected to be diligent and discerning enough to report issues such as the one in discussion.

Added later-
Of course, I understand that Sachin is not in the media industry.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 18 May 2012 14:14

nelson wrote:The gazette is online and free of cost. CIC order mandates publisher of gazette to make it accessible and affordable.

http://egazette.nic.in/weeklysearch.asp ... d3128a2c82

I don't expect you to visit the above page to search for the details. But it is the duty of media to report. Or is it asking for too much?

Many thanks for the link - I had no idea that it was online.

peter · Post by **peter** » 18 May 2012 14:16

ramana wrote:chackoj, Why dont you ask your sources? Barrels are hydrotested for pressure and the final assy tested to show it works before customer acceptance.

Not only hydrotested but they have to be proof tested too by firing actual shots through the barrel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_test#Firearms

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 May 2012 14:38

peter,

You ballant liar (remember this?), show the proof that OFB tests is multiple times before deliver.

Ramanna,

I am working on it.

peter · Post by **peter** » 18 May 2012 15:01

chackojoseph wrote:peter,

You ballant liar (remember this?), show the proof that OFB tests is multiple times before deliver.

Do your own homework. I am replying here to show that:
a) you are a habitual liar
b) you have no clue about things you write

http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/18.htm

Major components are test fired and only passed proof components are taken into final assembly of ammunition.

Since ammunition is tested by firing, it is not rocket science, that a gun which has to be repeatedly stressed by firing will be proof tested too.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 May 2012 15:22

peter wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:peter,

You ballant liar (remember this?), show the proof that OFB tests is multiple times before deliver.
Do your own homework. I am replying here to show that:
a) you are a habitual liar
b) you have no clue about things you write

http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/18.htm

Major components are test fired and only passed proof components are taken into final assembly of ammunition.
Since ammunition is tested by firing, it is not rocket science, that a gun which has to be repeatedly stressed by firing will be proof tested too.

Peter,

You are indoctrinated to say that testing ammo component is equal to proof testing the Field guns. You are a ballant liar.

Added later..

BTW really

they proof fire ammo and then send it to field?

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 18 May 2012 15:49

What is a ballant liar?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 May 2012 15:51

Term Used by his Highness Peter to describe me and now being used on him back.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 18 May 2012 16:17

Army thread is the most malevolent thread in BR. Fisticuffs between officers and jawans, fight between army chief and govt and last but not least the fight between peter and chacko.

Anybody who blatantly lies on items involving ballistics is a ballant liar.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 18 May 2012 16:19

Its turning into the comedy thread now...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 May 2012 16:39

I had stopped. Peter came with his new knowledge and I wanted to test drive. Anyway, putting him in ignore list so that thread will not be interrupted from my side. Apologies

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 May 2012 20:22

47th RR Battalion and SOG Kupwara recover arms cache

One more today. Busting seems to be becoming a habit

. Hope they bust more.

peter · Post by **peter** » 19 May 2012 18:25

Stop sniping at Chacko

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 May 2012 18:49

Stop sniping at Peter

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 May 2012 13:58

Military and governing class at war

by B S Raghavan,

Hindu Businessline, May 17, 2012

Much of what I am going to write in this column about the alarming alienation between the Defence Forces and the civilian hierarchy is based on what I have heard from reliable sources and the contents of various websites during the last one year or more.

At the basic level, the alienation has its origin in the supposedly shabby treatment received by the officers of the Defence Forces who risk their lives for the country at the hands of the bureaucrats in the Defence Ministry, and the political and governing classes, in general, who lead a cushy and pampered existence.

Still rankling in the minds of both retired and serving military personnel, and frequently mentioned as an example of callousness and insult to the honour of armed forces, is what they construe to be the virtual boycott of Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw’s funeral by the entire top civilian political and bureaucratic echelons without any explanation or excuse.

In a published article, a retired Air Marshal and former Director-General, Defence Planning Staff, writes caustically on “the widening chasm and lack of harmony” between the Defence Forces and civilian establishment, the marginalisation of the armed forces resulting from their exclusion from “the decision-making loop”, and the “tremendous harm” to national interest being done by “the cavalier attitude of the political hierarchy … allowing the bureaucratic hold on them to tighten.”

Widespread resentment

The phenomenon is not confined to Delhi. The messes of Defence forces in which different grades of officers and ranks mingle and discuss freely among themselves and which, therefore, are usually the barometers of prevalent opinion down the line, are abuzz with highly vitriolic commentaries about the depths to which the civilian governing class, comprising bureaucrats and politicians, and existing institutions in general, has sunk, while the Defence Forces alone are required to adhere, on pain of harshest retribution, to the most stringent standards of sacrifice, rectitude, discipline and loyalty.

There is widespread resentment that while the Defence Forces deal ruthlessly with misconduct and dereliction of duty, there is no accountability and regard for scruples on the civilian side. Those accused of grave crimes and misdemeanours in the governing class not only go scot free but even come to occupy highest pedestals of power and authority.

The case against Bangaru Laxman, former President of the BJP, caught red-handed taking a bribe of a lakh of rupees in the Tehelka sting, dragged on for ten years, whereas the military brass implicated in the same sting were court-martialed and punished within a few short months. Many implicated in various heinous crimes and multi-crore scams are on bail and comporting themselves and being hailed as heroes.

Double Standards

The increasing discontent in the Defence Forces on these counts has come to such a pass that even serving officers are circulating the view that it is not worth fighting for a country which is in the grip of such shady characters.

One such write-up says that, in the Indian context, the soldiers are called upon to die “for the corrupt, ungrateful and unconcerned” made up of bureaucrats and politicians, followed by the bulk of unscrupulous businessmen. It goes on to make the point-blank statement: “Soldiers, today, must learn that they no more fight a nation's wars but the conflicts started by inept, inefficient and incompetent bureaucracy of India, in league with self-centered, greedy and corrupt politicians.”

These are more than straws in the wind signifying the rising anger within the Defence Forces at the double standards to which they are subjected. Constant buffeting by malignant influences also takes a heavy toll of morale within the Forces themselves, as witnessed in the recent shocking incident of a clash between the officers and jawans in Leh.

The sum and substance of it all is that relations between the Defence forces and their civilian colleagues, especially in the Ministry of Defence, are marked by a pervasive sense of bitterness and animosity. A prominent and highly respected Constitutional lawyer who visits Delhi frequently and has a wide circle of fiends there told me a couple of days ago that the situation has worsened in recent months to an unprecedented degree. Indeed, if allowed to continue with the same intensity, national security itself is bound to be imperilled.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 20 May 2012 15:03

chackojoseph wrote:
The "......" doesn't know that the spell checker of the forum shows a red line below the ballant for corrections and I deliberately left it since he is such a time pass.

This is strange (making fun of grammar or spelling mistakes) coming from one whose own articles have been pointed out by BRFites many times for spelling and grammar mistakes, in fact many even often to help you on this. Though I never see any such mistakes on likes of shiv aroor or Col. Shukla's articles.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 May 2012 15:22

Manish_Sharma,

(ot)They simply don't handle the volume I handle at tight schedules and extremely limited resources. However, its peter who made fun (/ot) because he couldn't back up his claim that OFB tests multiple times and then delivers the gun to Army. he claimed that testing ammo parts is same as testing artillery guns.

I am finding that my efforts are not required in BR. Most of the time is spent on petty mullahs and other things. A good article is posted, there is hardly any discussion on it. Most people go after spelling, the advt and how I should allow other to copy my hard work.

There is a time when people have to quit. So, its time to leave and concentrate on my own work. If someone needs to read my work, they can come to FI and FI Forums.

I thank all good people who made my stay worth.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 20 May 2012 17:54

chetak wrote:Military and governing class at war

A well written article. However, it conveniently ignores the role of media to also sensationalize many things that are happening in the defence forces (almost to the level of it being a fashion statement to mock at the defence forces - examples like Shekhar Gupta etc)

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 20 May 2012 18:17

Chacko,

Thanks for your contributions at BRF. They are appreciated. Would be great if you could continue.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 20 May 2012 18:25

CJ Chetta, your contributions surely add value to BR. Wouldn't want a few adverse comments to make you feel otherwise

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 May 2012 19:37

Ajay Sharma wrote:
chetak wrote:Military and governing class at war
A well written article. However, it conveniently ignores the role of media to also sensationalize many things that are happening in the defence forces (almost to the level of it being a fashion statement to mock at the defence forces - examples like Shekhar Gupta etc)

The media is controlled by the same governing classes thru with holding of advertisements.

The main reason is the IA refuses to bow down to shortsighted morons on the aman ki asha foolishness,so they are " showing the IA it's place".

Nobel peace prize be damned.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 20 May 2012 20:14

Internet has made a lot of things easier like pushing information, but it has made a few things for example 'reconsidering' harder.

Another thing has been with the rise of the internet is that of slackistvism, (Just 'like' 'dislike' quenches the thirst).

I for one, think that it is a little unfortunate that chacko ji has reached a decison point. Because of Chackoji's links and inputs, I did get some news which otherwise would have missed out on.

So maybe it'll be a temporary break.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 20 May 2012 20:42

Thank u Chacko
Your input was well read and recieved by most of us here, It is sad that we tend to eat our own on this sometime canabilistic forum.
All the best to u in your future endavours (spell check may be required) we the petty minded will follow you on your website.
The number of posts seems to be a bit of a driving force here. I could go on but it would be OT.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 May 2012 21:01

Dear Chackojoseph . I read with interest what you posted here. I was surprised when Ramana Garu started a thread for your post alone. I must say it was worth it, just as well your posts in other threads.
If possible please continue. Frontier India is where I would visit your writings.
Thank you for your contribution.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 May 2012 05:16

BS Raghavan ignores that Raja is out on bail. Very selective anger to make an irrelevant point. What is his real issue? Anger in armed forces at enforcement of the Indian Armed Forces Act?

BTW, B Raman, might be related to him, wrote in Kargil time, that armed forces are paid to die for the country and got a earful that he hardly posts after that.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 May 2012 02:05

First Post: Nyoma incident: Have Maoists infiltrated the Indian Army?

The recent upheaval in an artillery unit – ie, 226 field regiment in Nyoma in Ladakh sector – is not merely a rupture between officers and their men. In the past, the underlying impetus to such upheaval was religious or ethnic ferment amongst the troops, but in the instant case “class clash” is being insinuated by certain quarters, specially the media.

The character that the upheaval acquired after the initial spark has typically ultra-leftist footprints. Reportedly, when the Divisional Commander visited the unit to take stock of the situation, the next day he found that no personnel was wearing his rank on his shoulders or arms. When questioned, they replied that they had repudiated all rank structure and they were all ‘jawans’.

The disturbing question is this: have the Maoists started infiltrating and subverting the Indian army? The overground Maoists, particularly those in the media, have, in recent months, been drumming up absolutely outrageous propaganda that the Indian state, “as part of its war of attrition on the poor”, has pitted poor jawans in the police and paramilitary forces against poor Maoists. In this propaganda, officers are labelled as agents of the state.

In a seminar organised by a think-tank associated with the ‘profession of arms’, the editor of an English weekly unabashedly and with impunity, in the presence of uniformed personnel, unleashed this propaganda war.

...

At least two newspapers reported that violence had spilled onto the streets of Nyoma village and the troops had degenerated into a bloodthirsty mob, raising slogans on megaphone all through the night.

...

RSN Singh is a former military intelligence officer who later served in the Research & Analysis Wing, or R&AW. Author of two books: ‘Asian Strategic and Military Perspective’ and ‘Military Factor in Pakistan’, he is also a columnist for Canary Trap.

Read it all...

A comment...

He mistakenly entered the toilet while the officer's wife was having a bath and then consequently ran out.

IF the wife's husband was an officer (which he is obviously not) he would have taken the barber (you say so) to the Guard Room.

But then like a Brown Sahib he and his cohorts took the law into their own hands just like any other person Yuppie who has never had power. This is what is causing the rise of the Maoists - the rich taking the law into their own hands.

If you have wealth please do share it so that the poverty levels decrease - otherwise please hoard yourself in switzerland

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 23 May 2012 05:47

Gen VK Singh: In India we have a tendency to shoot the whistleblower

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 May 2012 07:25

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... epage=true
Blame the Army's cover-up culture, not ‘colonial-era institutions'

was this posted here earlier?

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 23 May 2012 10:59

^Crisp and to the point. Mr Manvender Singh ably rebuts the earlier article in The Chindu by Mr Praveen Swami. The reasons for Nyoma like incident as he points out lie elsewhere and the Army would do well for itself and the country by reforming in those aspects.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 May 2012 11:20

^^^I second that. Excellent and to the point article. As I said earlier, it was a command failure at every point in time and Officers did not conduct themselves as officers.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 23 May 2012 11:33

Praveen Swami responds..

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 23 May 2012 11:40

Mr Swami's diatribe against the Army betrays only his ulterior motives. His 'highly placed sources' may actually be 'highly paid sources' by the ISI.

If he chooses to hide behind the journalist's code of ethics when asked to reveal the source of his 'story' he must be an hypocrite to announce the name of all the officers on the scene as accused.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 23 May 2012 12:27

nelson wrote:Mr Swami's diatribe against the Army betrays only his ulterior motives. His 'highly placed sources' may actually be 'highly paid sources' by the ISI.

Agree with you. I have my own opinions in this incident. But to be honest if the upper class v/s lower class non-sense gets peddled and is taken as the absolute truth, then we for sure have a problem. Because it is this same logic which was used to fragment the society at large. Finding various classes, then inventing issues between them and then allow these classes to fight it out has been a commie game plan for quite some time.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 23 May 2012 12:41

Praveen Swami is a moron, and an irresponsible reporter, because he has allowed his personal biases to infiltrate his writing. He is best ignored. This business of "sahab" etc is pure drivel. If he imagines the army, or any other uniformed force can function on the basis of congenial "I say, would you mind terribly if you could just go ahead and capture that hill for me, theres a good chap", then he's out of his mind. And he fails totally to respond to the fact that ALL Gazetted and Commissioned officers, from Lieutenant to Field Marshal must, and DO refer to ALL non commissioned officers as "SAHAB" as well. This is the ingrained sharafat and culture of the Army. Swami would do better to keep his nonsense to himself.

Manvendra Singh, incidentally, is not only of course a lawmaker, but also a Major in the Territorial Army.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 23 May 2012 13:07

Gen VK Singh: In India we have a tendency to shoot the whistleblower

Just a few posts after this link we have a diatribe against Pravin Swami - hopefully the irony is not lost on some of us here.

I wonder if tomorrow Gen. VK Singh would come up with pretty much the same analysis of Nyoma, how many here would use the same kind of language to describe him as they have done for Pravin Swami?

If one could depart from the ad hominem school of internet debate and honestly ask if the Army has done a good job of "evolving with the times", we might see some glaring lapses:

1. Supreme court judgement striking down discriminatory policies towards women officers.

2. Failure to phase out the Sahayak system despite this issue having been flagged almost 10 years back by internal studies.

3. Lack of sanction to prosecute or hold GCM in the Pathribal case. (Which is going to be the next egg on the Army's face)

Also, I'd be very careful to insinuate that people who hold the Army to a different standard than most on BR would are "ISI agents" - a man much wiser than us came up with the homily "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels".

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 May 2012 13:09

^^Pravin Swami is not an unknown commodity on BRF. He has written several such egregious articles in the past which have been discussed here.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 23 May 2012 13:24

@RajitO
You may explain the connotation of using the term 'whistleblower' with Mr Praveen Swami and whose whistle he is blowing. How can one extrapolate one incident in umpteen years, that has happened in one unit out of 1500 or so major units in the Indian Army, as a symptom of class divide in the entire Army? I asked him this question many times over which were not even acknowledged by him or the Hindu. IMO, his source is an ISI agent.