Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 23 May 2012 13:49

RajitO wrote:...

1. Supreme court judgement striking down discriminatory policies towards women officers.

2. Failure to phase out the Sahayak system despite this issue having been flagged almost 10 years back by internal studies.

3. Lack of sanction to prosecute or hold GCM in the Pathribal case. (Which is going to be the next egg on the Army's face)

...

It is not my claim that the Army is perfect, but it is one of the best institutions standing in the country. The drivel of the press is aimed at undermining that institution. As for particular issues that you have pointed out it is open for debate to the public, you and me. My opinion on them are...

1. The discrimination is towards male SS officers not the other way round. Lady officers are using the populist sentiment of the political parties and public to gain undue advantage.

2. The 'sahayak' system as authorised by Army Orders, is essential for optimal performance of an Army unit. Misuse can and must be prevented effectively.

3. Sanction is to be given by the Govt. The govt is mandated by law to protect the Army personnel who did what they did in the line of duty. Hopefully the Govt decision will be in the interest of the security of the nation.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 May 2012 14:29

A pretty good interview given by Gen VK Singh to rediff. Certainly an interesting read.

Part 1:
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 120522.htm

Part 2:
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 120523.htm

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 23 May 2012 14:32

@RajitO
You may explain the connotation of using the term 'whistleblower' with Mr Praveen Swami and whose whistle he is blowing

Just a few posts after this link we have a diatribe against Pravin Swami - hopefully the irony is not lost on some of us here.

QED.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 23 May 2012 14:47

^I do not understand if the 'whistleblowing' act is in reporting the particular incident in Nyoma or the 'class divide' that Mr Swami talks about. In the case of Nyoma incident he has had nothing to blow that was not in the DDM, except that he has gone a step forward and has been libelous against the five officers he named in his report without basis or followup. If it is the latter, I repeat my question,

'How can one extrapolate one incident in umpteen years, that has happened in one unit out of 1500 or so major units in the Indian Army, as a symptom of class divide in the entire Army?'

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 May 2012 15:06

RajitO wrote:
If one could depart from the ad hominem school of internet debate and honestly ask if the Army has done a good job of "evolving with the times", we might see some glaring lapses:

1. Supreme court judgement striking down discriminatory policies towards women officers.

2. Failure to phase out the Sahayak system despite this issue having been flagged almost 10 years back by internal studies.

3. Lack of sanction to prosecute or hold GCM in the Pathribal case. (Which is going to be the next egg on the Army's face)

Also, I'd be very careful to insinuate that people who hold the Army to a different standard than most on BR would are "ISI agents" - a man much wiser than us came up with the homily "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels".

1. This is a long debate and a whole thread is dedicated towards it. So, I would prefer not to discuss it here. However, I would urge you to read the following article. Perhaps it would help you to somewhat appreciate the other side's POV.
http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapter ... cts-1.aspx

2. Army itself has recommended phasing out Sahayak system.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 976295.cms

3. Pathribal was a joint operation b/n Police & Army. Information was given by Police SSP Farooq Khan. The IA and Police subsequently went there and blew up the house. Who then claimed the success for the operation? SSP Farooq Khan.
After that, when suspicion rose, Police changed blood and DNA samples to be sent for investigation. This is a confirmed fact.
The police SSP and his coterie are still in service.
But CBI chose to conveniently ignore the involvement of its Police brethren and shifted all the blame on Army. I wonder why.
So, the accused Army personnel are guilty. Maybe not. I hope that the IA acts against them if they are guilty. But I refuse to call it a fair procedure when the real culprits (SSP Farooq Khan, his SHO and all other policemen belonging to their coterie) are still in service and beyond scrutiny while the Army Officers are selectively targeted both by media and CBI.

Added Later: BTW, it may very well be that IA gets egg on its face because of Pathribal Encounter. But that does not mean that IA deserves it in this particular case. There is a lot of dirtly politics involved and a lot of strings are being pulled for years.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 23 May 2012 16:54

1. This is a long debate and a whole thread is dedicated towards it. So, I would prefer not to discuss it here. However, I would urge you to read the following article. Perhaps it would help you to somewhat appreciate the other side's POV.
http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapter ... cts-1.aspx

There is an erroneous assumption that a debate is being asked for on any of those three examples.

The limited point is this - the Army like most organizations is really slow and poor at change - both in its pace and manner. To start damning people who put a spotlight on this, especially by invoking the "anti-national" clause, IMO is a bit rich.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 May 2012 17:32

RajitO wrote: <SNIP>I wonder if tomorrow Gen. VK Singh would come up with pretty much the same analysis of Nyoma, how many here would use the same kind of language to describe him as they have done for Pravin Swami?PS has been peddling nonsense on the issue unlike VKS who has had the guts to stand up to a very corrupt system. He sees things from his tinted glasses and passes judgments. Please don't compare the honorable acts of one person and BS being peddles by other in the garb of journalism.

If one could depart from the ad hominem school of internet debate and honestly ask if the Army has done a good job of "evolving with the times", we might see some glaring lapses:Lapses, if any, are part of the growing up of any system. Nothing is fail proof. So, please stop passing these remarks on the Army

1. Supreme court judgement striking down discriminatory policies towards women officers.The policies towards women officers stem from operational requirements. It is very easy to sit outside and pontificate about gender equality. Please implement it in letter and spirit and then, may be, it will be all right to offer equal opportunities. As someone said, "You cannot have the privileges of a man and prerogatives of a woman at the same time".

2. Failure to phase out the Sahayak system despite this issue having been flagged almost 10 years back by internal studies.What exactly has failed - can you elaborate? How many reports have you come across of issues in the army due to Sahayak system? Or that it has impacted the professional acumen and fighting potential of the IA? Of all the organizations, it is IA which has put forward proposal for removing the Sahayak system - let us see how the "evolved" MOD babudom deals with this one

3. Lack of sanction to prosecute or hold GCM in the Pathribal case. (Which is going to be the next egg on the Army's face)Egg on army's face? Why so much glee on the development? Let the law take its own course

Also, I'd be very careful to insinuate that people who hold the Army to a different standard than most on BR would are "ISI agents" - a man much wiser than us came up with the homily "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels".True but arguments for the sake of advancing once's agenda and lop-sided opinions is not a virtue either.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 23 May 2012 17:34

^^The very fact that Army have women in their officer cadre for two decades and the introduction was brought about with little external clamour proves that the logic espoused by you, that Army 'is really slow and poor at change both in pace and manner', is incorrect.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 23 May 2012 19:19

VinodTK wrote:Gen VK Singh: In India we have a tendency to shoot the whistleblower

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

What an admirable person ! A combination of a soldier, a thinker, a gentleman and a strategist like General VKS would be most difficult to find in these troubled days. The Indian Army and the armed forces were fortunate to have him for a few years as the COAS and for 4 decades as a warrior.

The sad fact is that we, as a nation, probably did not deserve such an upright warrior. Time to reflect for all of us.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 May 2012 19:24

I had a slow day in the office today and Chindu is one of the sites not fire walled in my office. So I had the (Mis)fortune of reading the PS, BS. (hey that rhymes).

The man has a total communist way of looking at things. Reporting of class war in the IA and other stuff. Even, if, evidence pointed otherwise. Moreover, in a response to a rejoinder, he says that the Jawans who had beaten up the majors had seized the armory. Something denied by the IA, but was still stated by PS.

I wonder, just what makes PS credible.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 23 May 2012 19:53

VinodTK wrote:
Gen VK Singh: In India we have a tendency to shoot the whistleblower

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

What an admirable person ! A combination of a soldier, a thinker, a gentleman and a strategist like General VKS would be most difficult to find in these troubled days. The Indian Army and the armed forces were fortunate to have him for a few years as the COAS and for 4 decades as a warrior.

The sad fact is that we, as a nation, probably did not deserve such an upright warrior. Time to reflect for all of us.

Let's see what he does post retirement. The Govt. might still offer him a peace offering to keep him quiet, but here's hoping he continues to shake up the establishment even more!

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 23 May 2012 19:55

So, please stop passing these remarks on the Army

Request denied. Next.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 23 May 2012 20:01

^^The very fact that Army have women in their officer cadre for two decades and the introduction was brought about with little external clamour proves that the logic espoused by you, that Army 'is really slow and poor at change both in pace and manner', is incorrect.

But after inducting them did the Army move at the pace at which societal changes are happening and the degree of "equality" that the women officers aspire to? I probably know your answer to that but last time I checked it was the Supreme Court's view that really matters.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 May 2012 20:13

RajitO,
I agree that you have every right to criticize Army (as it should be). No one can or should stop you from doing that. However, perhaps you should first read up more on the subject before venting your criticism so that your points are somewhat valid and you don't come out looking as rigid & stubborn with your POV/beliefs (maybe wrongly so) as you claim some others here to be. The people who are objecting to your points have themselves criticized IA on many occasions in the past when it was well deserving.

For instance, you blame IA for not attempting to do away with the sahayak system when IA had requested exactly that only a few weeks back. It was on the front page of many major dailys. A coursery search would have told you so.

The same goes for your third point. Moreover, your choice of worlds, I hope wrongly, indeed suggested that get much pleasure out of miseries of IA.

In short, putting serious accusations carelessly without having even a basic knowledge or having done a cursory search does nothing other than flaring up sentiments and starting circular debates and arguments. Just a tiresome waste of forum space.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 May 2012 20:14

RajitO wrote:
But after inducting them did the Army move at the pace at which societal changes are happening and the degree of "equality" that the women officers aspire to?

I think you are winning the argument. Congratulations. But you are still wrong and sound as if you are ignorant to me. Just my view.

Next.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 May 2012 20:16

RajitO,
I really hope that you go through "Women in combat" thread. All this and more has been thoroughly discussed numerous times there.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 23 May 2012 20:18

@RajitO

That they have gone to the court against the contract they signed at the time of commissioning speaks of the equality that they are demanding. Have you heard of a male SS officer who is not granted PC due to lack of vacancies going to court? Why should the Army treat Women officers differently if all they want is equality?

Army is not the testbed for trying and championing societal changes. Please read the article written by Maj Gen retd M Suman, linked here by Gaur.

After the day a course of at least 30-40 Lady cadets run BPET 5 KM with Arms in 28 minutes in OTA, that course can be granted PC.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 23 May 2012 20:20

RajitO wrote:
But after inducting them did the Army move at the pace at which societal changes are happening and the degree of "equality" that the women officers aspire to?

[/quote]

The degree of equality which women officers aspire to, etc etc, are all subject to the needs of the services, and subject to the safety and security of the state, as determined by the executive, in this case, the government of India, through the army leadership. This is the view of equality consistently espoused by the Supreme Court also, in its reading of Art 14 of the constitution. Rights are not without any qualifications. They all come with innate restrictions.

And I'd lose the supercilious tone if you want to stick around. Everyone here has a point of view, and all of them, including yours are valid to an extent. No need to disparage persons, or institutions unnecessarily, just because you feel like being an internet warrior, and can say anything behind the anonymity this medium offers you. Thanks.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 May 2012 20:29

An interesting development. I couldn't have thought that my respect for Gen VK Singh can go any higher. I was wrong. He is simply an unrelenting force against those who try to harm the organization and the Nation (specially from within).

Army Chief issues show cause notice to Lt. Gen. Dalbir Singh, GOC 3 Corps

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 449314.ece

Some background to the case:

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/ar ... 66819.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 May 2012 20:33

Pravin Swami genre of journalists dont blow whistles. They blow trumpets as they are modern day town criers. So question is whose trumpet and what message?

peter · Post by **peter** » 23 May 2012 20:39

Gaur wrote:An interesting development. I couldn't have thought that my respect for Gen VK Singh can go any higher. I was wrong. He is simply an unrelenting force against those who try to harm the organization and the Nation (specially from within).

Army Chief issues show cause notice to Lt. Gen. Dalbir Singh, GOC 3 Corps

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 449314.ece

Some background to the case:

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/ar ... 66819.html

Hindu link says:

In March, he had recommended a CBI probe against him for alleged involvement in a scam in Cabinet Secretariat but was turned down by the Government.

Does anyone know why Antony did not allow a probe against Dalbir Singh?

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 23 May 2012 20:49

@Gaur

The two stories are different even if the principal actors are same. If one reads the Chindu article in full we can understand that the malaise plaguing the Army is not untrue but the focus of media and public is misplaced.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 May 2012 20:59

^^
Yeah, I know the stories are different but the past allegations against the accused (and the inaction by the govt) are worth considering. Also, it shows how Gen VK Singh relentlessly tries to rid army of such men.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 23 May 2012 21:56

peter wrote:
Gaur wrote:An interesting development. I couldn't have thought that my respect for Gen VK Singh can go any higher. I was wrong. He is simply an unrelenting force against those who try to harm the organization and the Nation (specially from within).

Army Chief issues show cause notice to Lt. Gen. Dalbir Singh, GOC 3 Corps

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 449314.ece

Some background to the case:

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/ar ... 66819.html
Hindu link says:
In March, he had recommended a CBI probe against him for alleged involvement in a scam in Cabinet Secretariat but was turned down by the Government.
Does anyone know why Antony did not allow a probe against Dalbir Singh?

He has a clear shot at COAS after BS

peter · Post by **peter** » 23 May 2012 22:06

chaanakya wrote:
peter wrote:
Hindu link says:
In March, he had recommended a CBI probe against him for alleged involvement in a scam in Cabinet Secretariat but was turned down by the Government.
Does anyone know why Antony did not allow a probe against Dalbir Singh?
He has a clear shot at COAS after BS

Sure but what does Antony gain from DS?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 May 2012 01:25

peter wrote: Sure but what does Antony gain from DS?

Umm why does it have to be a Anthony specific gain? It could be decided by others senior to him politically and passed on to Anthony to act on?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 May 2012 01:46

Sanku wrote:
peter wrote: Sure but what does Antony gain from DS?
Umm why does it have to be a Anthony specific gain? It could be decided by others senior to him politically and passed on to Anthony to act on?

+1. Antony does not take decisions without consulting his superiors. Railing against him alone is counter-productive. The ones with the real danda will just decide to make him a scapegoat if things get too messed up. We already saw that in the 2G case.

peter · Post by **peter** » 24 May 2012 04:48

Sanku wrote:
peter wrote: Sure but what does Antony gain from DS?
Umm why does it have to be a Anthony specific gain? It could be decided by others senior to him politically and passed on to Anthony to act on?

Possible. Here is a date trail from DNA:
Antony says knows nothing about
March29: http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_pr ... ag_1668992

"Sometime back, during one of the meetings, the Army Chief told me about the particular Lt Gen. Immediately I told him if there is any specific complaint he must take action.

"But lately, the Army headquarters sent a proposal to send him as Army Commander in one sector. I think the proposal is of March 22 to make him Army Commander. The Defence Secretary cleared it and when I checked up today in my office, it is pending. So, this is my information. The other thing (CBI inquiry) I don't know," he said.

Note the bit about "take action" same as Tejinder Singh's interaction!

March29: http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_i- ... mp_1668972

March30: http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_cb ... ag_1669168

“We are writing to the cabinet secretariat and defence ministry asking for records of purchases in the SFF during the lieutenant general’s tenure,” a CBI official said. “But we need clearance from the highest authorities to begin a formal investigation.”

Defence minister AK Antony said the general had told him about Lt Gen Suhag but he did not know that the general had asked the CBI to investigate the charges against the lieutenant general. Antony said that his ministry had recently received a proposal from the army headquarters to “send him (Lt Gen Suhag) as army commander in one sector”.

March31:http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_cb ... ag_1669593

The CBI said on Friday that it would not probe a corruption complaint forwarded by army chief Gen VK Singh against a serving Lieutenant General, saying that an extensive investigation by the cabinet secretariat has found nothing in the allegations.

See on March 29 Antony has no idea about any investigation against Suhag but by March 31 Cabinet Secretariat has given Suhag a clean chit!

Is'nt this just brilliant? Definetely there seems to be more actors involved. But why? Could'nt be just nepotism?

wig · Post by **wig** » 24 May 2012 22:07

Robotics, artificial intelligence to enhance war-fighting skills

As the Army orients and equips itself to operate across a vast spectrum of warfare ranging from anti-terrorist operations in a low-intensity conflict environment to a high-intensity blitzkrieg in a digitised battlefield, the Army Training Command (ARTRAC) is looking at robotics and artificial intelligence to train soldiers.

“Robotics and artificial intelligence are key areas of development that have numerous military applications. We need to tap these technologies to enhance our war-fighting skills,” a senior officer at ARTRAC said. “A beginning has been made in the field of virtual reality simulation by ARTRAC’s Simulator Development Division, which enables training of a team of 10-12 soldiers in a virtual environment,” he added.

The Army is laying a strong emphasis on simulation and computer wargaming as it is not only a cost-effective method of training at various levels, but also allows for instant and highly accurate feedback and evaluation of skill levels.

Over the years, a large number of simulators have been developed, which include those for firing and driving. Infantry weapon training simulators have been introduced that can train troops on all types of weapons and in various combat situations, including conditions of bad weather, poor light and night.

“So far, only ‘Level-1’ simulation was being used, which is platform-centric and is primarily meant to enhance individual skills in firing, driving etc. We are now moving towards ‘Level-2’ for simulating crew training for tank or artillery gun crews and ‘Level-3’ which involves tactical team simulations for executing field operations,” the officer said.

The Army already has three computer wargaming centres operations, including one at Headquarters Western Command, Chandimandir. Three more wargaming centres are coming up at various places, including one at the Army War College.

Officers at ARTRAC said while several wargaming models exist for training up to the battalion level, a division-level wargame, involving the employment of three battalions, has been fielded recently and ARTRAC’s next endeavour is to develop a corps’ level wargame that would employ multiple divisions. It is working with the Defence Research and Development Organisation on this project. Wargames being developed take into account not only the number of troops and support elements in the opposing forces, but also co-relate their capabilities and firing trajectories with terrain features to assess whether a particular manoeuvre or fire support ordered by a commander is feasible or not and its impact and other doctrinal and tactical aspects to produce a realistic war scenario.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120524/nation.htm#6

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 25 May 2012 05:26

The Jorhat operation that went wrong

Bonhomie at Antony's dinner for Army Chief, no farewell speeches

After notice, Army Chief puts key Lt Gen’s promotion on hold

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 May 2012 05:33

Antony gifted a silver bowl to the outgoing Chief as a memento.

to do what ?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 May 2012 12:11

suryag wrote:
Antony gifted a silver bowl to the outgoing Chief as a memento.
to do what ?

What do you mean to do what?

Its a momento. Even IA units gift them during farewell of their Officers. Or were you being sarcastic?

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 25 May 2012 13:03

This is precisely the sort of political/bureaucratic interference, and undercutting of the Chief's authority which was seen prior to the 1962 disaster, or Himalyan Blunder. The bureaucratic establishment always wants to control field commanders itself, undercutting and relegating the chief to a background role. When this happened in the runup to 62, it led to defeat.

This whole line of succession nonsense is again a factor in all these things. If an officer knows he will be chief, why should he care what the current chief thinks, or tells him to do? Again, intrigues indulged in by officers against the chief are disastrous. No officer should dare do such a thing. That they do, is ample evidence that they know they have sufficient backers in the ministry to let them do it. This bodes very ill for the internal health of the force, once again thanks to the good offices of the MOD.

This whole ministry should be wound up. It works against national defense rather than towards it. Someone should think up a better system.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 25 May 2012 13:07

Army mountaineering team successfully summits Mount Everest

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 455078.ece

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 May 2012 14:10

nelson wrote:Army mountaineering team successfully summits Mount Everest

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 455078.ece

“One male officer along with four women officers, three NCOs successfully summited the Everest in the morning. One of the Junior Commissioned Officers (JCOs) reached the summit without using oxygen cylinders,” Army officials said.

Now that is seriously badass stuff.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 25 May 2012 22:58

Chiefs interview playing on TimesNow

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 May 2012 23:04

PLEASE WATCH THE VKS INTERVIEW ON TIMES NOW - SUPER EXPLOSIVE STUFF.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 May 2012 23:20

for sake of those without access the gist?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 25 May 2012 23:20

What is a "Vigilance ban" in IA?

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 25 May 2012 23:23

He is probably the most vocal chief.
(with strong political relations in his extended family)

More power to him.