Artillery Discussion Thread

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 11 Jun 2012 10:07

You may find some hint in the appropriate thread. Still, there is no need to generalise. Each case can be discussed on its merits alone.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 11 Jun 2012 10:20

Nelson saar,
It's the ordinary Jawan and sometimes his immediate commanding officer, a Major, Captain etc who do the actual fighting and sometimes make the supreme sacrifice. It's the people who are in charge of choosing weapons for them have made the procurement a laughing matter. Just read about Arjun, INSAS, artillery, anti-aircraft gun mentioned above and dozens of other similar cases not just related to arms procurement. Army is rotting due to corruption and these are only the visible symptoms. Sure, you want the best for your men. BUt when you observe the cases I've mentioned it's quite obvious that we are suffering either due to incompetence or corruption or both. My feeling for military personnel is same as yours but there are issues which have to be addressed. MOD, CAG, PMO, Army procurement, a lot of people in these departments are crooks and it'll be dishonest to call them by any other name

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 11 Jun 2012 10:21

Vivek K wrote: You're missing the point? The nation is grateful to the soldier and his valor. Tell us why the Arjun which is the better weapon (demonstrated by the Army in comparative trials) received orders of only 124 tanks (for accepted Mark I) and a theoretical order for another 124 (after Arjun II clears trials in 2112) while the T-90 which came up second best has received orders of 1500 tanks?

Very true

sum · Post by **sum** » 11 Jun 2012 10:28

Just read about Arjun, INSAS, artillery, anti-aircraft gun mentioned above and dozens of other similar cases not just related to arms procurement. Army is rotting due to corruption and these are only the visible symptoms. Sure, you want the best for your men. BUt when you observe the cases I've mentioned it's quite obvious that we are suffering either due to incompetence or corruption or both.

IIRC, if the IN had persisted with the same attitude as IA, we would never have reached the stage of having a home-built world class INS Satpura, Shivalik , IAC-1 etc since the initial Desi products like Nilgiri, SONAR etc weren't super-duper but IN persisted and worked with designers to iteratively improve designs till we reached the stage we are now instead of crossing their arms 30 years back and saying that "bring us world class else dont bother".

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 11 Jun 2012 13:37

The reason why the IN is successful is that they have their own design bureau. And thus they 'own' the whole process including the final product.

IA lacks the culture of 'ownership' towards end results, it has developed a culture of sychophancy. And today the highest post in IA is occupied by a person who is a prime example of that sychophancy culture.

Wait, their will be more large purchases like the Javelin. How much money changes hands is anybody's guess.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 11 Jun 2012 14:49

FMS is the cleanest form of defence deal making, don't think any of the US deals are corrupt at all. There are no companies involved US Govt. works directly with MOD and the service involved.

koti · Post by **koti** » 11 Jun 2012 15:01

But what difference does it make?
FMS is a single vendor solution wherein we will buy without comparative trails. The normal corruption prone way includes selecting a vendor that was outperformed in the trails.

Apart from time to induction I see no great advantage here.

ToT will also be ignored in FMS deals. Then comes the messy reinvestment part.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jun 2012 20:44

koti wrote:But what difference does it make?
FMS is a single vendor solution wherein we will buy without comparative trails. The normal corruption prone way includes selecting a vendor that was outperformed in the trails.

Apart from time to induction I see no great advantage here.

ToT will also be ignored in FMS deals. Then comes the messy reinvestment part.

Going by the Bofors saga, the IA trials naatak is to facilitate the corruption for the leaders. Some times they get caught and leads to messy situation.

I still dont get how IA can trial unobtanium like Krasnopol M and subject it trials that defy physics (like hitting the backside of mountain at extreme range) and claim its not good enough when they dont even have any other options!!! Meantime PRC sets up a whole factory for Krasnopol M!

koti · Post by **koti** » 12 Jun 2012 11:56

^Noted.

Meanwhile in India.....Deja vu...
Remember Zuzana?
Link

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Jun 2012 12:31

^^^****....No wonder, MOD does not want anyone from the IA to be part of the decision making with respect to the acquisition process. also, it seems many projects/products might have been killed - the anonymous complaint letter+blacklisting - to make way for particular product. What is quite obvious is that there are a bunch of wheeler-dealers (private entities+ex-service fellows) with deep inroad into the defense acquisition system who has "connections" across the political spectrum. The anonymous letter against M777 could be a case of such salesmen wanting to scuttle the deal as they would not get anything from FMS Route.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 12 Jun 2012 12:57

try google image search for Zuzana...

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 12 Jun 2012 13:23

^^ NSFW

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 12 Jun 2012 17:59

koti wrote:But what difference does it make?
FMS is a single vendor solution wherein we will buy without comparative trails. The normal corruption prone way includes selecting a vendor that was outperformed in the trails.

Apart from time to induction I see no great advantage here.

ToT will also be ignored in FMS deals. Then comes the messy reinvestment part.

TOT till now has been an issue due to CISMOA but since that was dropped, don't think it will be an issue for the next many deals. Besides every deal including FMS has a good chunk re-invested.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jun 2012 20:23

Koti, I think RG and 2Gs came up with the scheme to buy up Eastern European armament makers to avoid Bofors type scandal. This Rishi guy is first family frontman onlee. No one could have survived for so long without that connection.

Is the Tatra truck used for Bofors transport early on?

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 12 Jun 2012 21:40

^^
Bofors were using Scania trucks, Ramanji. Not sure whats the scene in recent years

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Jun 2012 00:17

It is Scania still...it comes fitted with cabin for crews+ammunition and all that.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Jun 2012 00:25

ramana wrote:Koti, I think RG and 2Gs came up with the scheme to buy up Eastern European armament makers to avoid Bofors type scandal. <SNIP>

True words. IMO, the scheme seems to be something like this:
- Buy cheap E.European company or gain majority share
- See what kind of demand is there from Indian Armed Forces which can be matched by the products of these companies. I would not put it across for these guys to ensure that a particular "Acceptance of Necessity" (ANE-first step in initiating procurement) is created. There are many in Service I think who would be willing to oblige.
- Either get a typical GSQR manufactured (which might be difficult considering cross body of people involved) or ensure that a particular product is reserved for DPSUs.
- With CMDs in DPSUs more than willing to oblige MOD+others, ensure a TATRA kind of deal where both DPSU and foreign company (most probably a middleman like TATRA Sipox) make money.

The DPSU route is the safest route - very difficult to accuse anyone of corruption unless you've someone like VKS. In fact, we should run an assessment of such deals where DPSUs are acting as middlemen.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 13 Jun 2012 08:44

To expect the mafia family to keep the defence purchases pure is too much. Gurus they are getting money alomst in every thing. AKA is only a front man just like MMS. If the deal does not go mafia way it will be stopped one way or another. Remember the letter written by Mysora Reddy on Raffa selection and earlier drama by Renuka ( why Telugu people in all this dramas I wonder) after the deals or finalized is an indication that almost no deal is left unpaid to mafia. Gone were the days when we used to talk about 70% indian made defence purchases. We now purchase even the ammo from outside. Coal was MMS when all coal loot happend and now AKA is covering for mafia.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 13 Jun 2012 17:50

ramana wrote:Koti, I think RG and 2Gs came up with the scheme to buy up Eastern European armament makers to avoid Bofors type scandal. This Rishi guy is first family frontman onlee. No one could have survived for so long without that connection.

Is the Tatra truck used for Bofors transport early on?

Tatra were used in translporting a lot of Arty pieces, not just bofors. In addition they were/are used in transporting goods and people. They were heavily used in Jammu-Kashmir logistics link. Sort of an upgraded Shaktiman.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Jun 2012 22:05

^^^AFAIK, TATRA have never been used as Field Artillery Tractors (FAT) in the Indian Army. M-46 came with KRAZ while IFG was pulled by the 3-ton class vehicles like Shaktiman/TATA/Stallion. Bofors we know came with Scania. I have not seen the FAT for D-30.

TATRA is the backbone of the Tank Transport companies and battalions of the Indian Army as well as being integral part of Armored, Mechanized and Engineer Regiments. Also, they play a critical role in the Missile Regiments of the IA - AFAIK, all the missiles are mounted on platforms based on TATRA - except the Prahaar one I think. Even Pinaka are mounted on TATRA platforms.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 14 Jun 2012 01:04

Look like when they talk about Saint or MMS being honest, means being honest to Gs only and not to nation or themselves.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2012 08:45

btw Leyland has a bigger vehicle called Super Stallion now as a follow up to their basic stallion. I love that line of vehicles, commonly seen with ASC in bangalore.
http://defence.ashokleyland.com/content ... r-stallion

if we are moving away from tatra , it presents an option for stuff like prahaar, aad, pad, AD1, AD2, akash, pinaka and anything else...tata and amw are also interested.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 15 Jun 2012 14:46

^^ this is the reason of frustration. Indian truck manufacturers - both Tata and Ashok leyland are farely advanced in truck manufacturing but somehow the requirement for such vehicles do not go to them. It would take them hardly a year to get the Army any type of truck they require. A few Agni series are I think based on Tata Motors chassis.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2012 16:30

I always thought mindlessly continueing to buy Tatra all these years and that too a strangely left hand driver vehicle was silly. after 1000s of vehicles they still could not provide us a right hand driver version? and this was tatra sipox UK (right hand driver country) we were importing from !!

it might offer some extreme mobility features still lacking in the tata/AL offerings, but AL has already sold 1000s of stallions to IA and the tatra vehicles being missile and MLRS haulers for most part will NOT be hacking it across truly bad terrain where other trucks cannot go, they can only go where the rest of IA formation goes.

even AMW in a short span of time has been able to tie together global suppliers of components and setup a viable manufacturing in gujarat. its products look slick.

soumik · Post by **soumik** » 15 Jun 2012 18:00

As of now the TATA LPTA 5252 12X12 has been verified as the platform for the Prahaar Weapons system, the same platform is also capable of housing the Brahmos Launcher and the Pinaka system with adequate modifications as well. also the TATA 6X6 has been qualified as a plaform for the Grad MLRS.

In DEFEXPO 2010 TATA had showcased the LPTA 3138 8X8 has a platfrom for the Skyshield AA Gun

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2012 19:14

all fine looking beasts .... its time to stop feeding the korrupt BEML and its foreign cronies. keep wealth inhouse mostly. the 8x8 could do duty for the Akash system as well.

btw are we still producing nissan jonga for Milan carrier role?

do we still have the jonga mounted 75mm AT gun that is hand loaded? (saw a similar piece in black hawk down)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jun 2012 21:09

Also it could be that BEML role in corruption is coming up now that TATAs have an alternate gaadi! As long it wasn't there, everything was quiet.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jun 2012 21:18

haah! what a thinking ramana.. so, TATA did get their share in korrupshun in terms of delaying their gaadi, while playing with TATRA etc.. this is like the big 3 consulting komps dealing with big financial institutions and gov setups.. where their own men are paid, and kept and destroyed... based on their business strategy.

soumik · Post by **soumik** » 15 Jun 2012 22:38

Found this video of a Grad MLRS being fired from a TATA 6x6 , thought you guys would enjoy it!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jun 2012 00:14

SaiK, Dont forget the Radia tapes. Its not like TATAs are surf clean.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jun 2012 10:28

Nice video of Grad on Tata , looks sturdy although the force of BM-21 is such that it would make it gently wobble.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 16 Jun 2012 19:13

Sad news people

Arjun tank developer dies in car crash

May he rest in eternal peace and may the product he helped develop never give a moments peace to the enemy

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 16 Jun 2012 19:26

Sad and depressing

This is one of my frustrations when I see important defence people travel around exposed to the lunacy that is our roads.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 16 Jun 2012 19:34

Hmmmmm

lorry crashing into his car.....

Jodhpur in Rajasthan around 3.30pm on Monday.

Police said he was on his way to Pokhran to participate in user trials of Arjun MBT Mark-2 when the accident occurred.

Hard not to think that this was not an accident

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jun 2012 19:56

no doubt on a undivided NH or SH. I dread having to drive on such roads at night.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 17 Jun 2012 06:35

krishnan wrote:Hmmmmm

lorry crashing into his car.....

Hard not to think that this was not an accident

+1

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2012 09:58

a hit and run truck driver in delhi also killed the IN navy commander who had red flagged radar problems in INS talwar and refused to accept it until fixed.

the claws of the arms lobbies reach very deep indeed.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 17 Jun 2012 12:32

Singha wrote:a hit and run truck driver in delhi also killed the IN navy commander who had red flagged radar problems in INS talwar and refused to accept it until fixed.

the claws of the arms lobbies reach very deep indeed.

A sad reflection on the pathetic state of affairs in our country.

No wonder we find our progress stunted at every stage.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Jun 2012 12:37

I hope and pray the tragic death of Arjun-2 developer does not delay the program me.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 17 Jun 2012 14:34

Manish_P wrote:Sad news people

Arjun tank developer dies in car crash

May he rest in eternal peace and may the product he helped develop never give a moments peace to the enemy

You should have added "if inducted"