Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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kit
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by kit »

Kanson wrote:
prabhug wrote:I have few questions

1.Has the time come for getting rid of AD guns leaving the job to missiles.
2.Looks like the Croatle has IR seeker with midcourse guidance ,Can we not do it with trishul which we was entirely dependent on RF guidance
3.why an Igla track mounted on a tracked wheel or a laser designated missile not better to this task ?
Is there any other sector where missiles completely replaced guns? Fighter aircraft still retain guns nor naval crafts removed their gun mounts.


:D OT , but precisely the reason why the US is turning towards all aspect stealth for its missile programs as well .You can not hit what you cant see.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

on the army QR-SAM front,

MBDA is expected to field Maitri proposal though no actual work done yet
the Crotale mk3 is not being mentioned
Tor M1 is there
MIM-40 hawk is mentioned but obsolete and phased out...
SLAMRAAM is mentioned - but its cancelled - http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htada/20110111.aspx
Pantsyr is there
VL mica is not mentioned
Spyder is mentioned perhaps in a mobile incarnation
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

Tor-M1 is an old 80's system and not even in production , it would be Tor-M2E thats in production now

Specs http://www.kupol.ru/en/ams/tor-m2e
video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJmpMCSI1qU
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

SandeepS wrote:I am not familiar with the formation units of Mech (I) AD Bde so I am happy to be updated. If I can confirm this info, then I will drop a line here to indicate. But (I) AD Bde have AD Regt, Light AD Regt or Light AD (Comp) Regt only. I do not have any open source reference at hand on this to share and I realise it might be difficult for you too, but in case you have any that show SP AD/SP Msl Grp as part of (I) AD Bde then please do share.

On SP AD being part of Armd Div, I am very sure that I have seen their eqpt sporting the Armd Div's div sign but I can't for the life of me remember the details though I do know they were part of one of the original Strike Corps. I will like to point out my info could be dated, so it could have changed now.
As I said earlier, SP MSL Groups are directly under the Corps and not part of any brigades. On the SP AD being part of Armored Division(s), I stand corrected. Here is a pic of Tungushka systems in RD Parade with formation sign of 31 Armd Division. (http://pib.nic.in/photo/2006/Jan/l200601267174.jpg
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

Hypersonic missile "Brahmos" to appear in 2017
The long-term hypersonic missile Indo-Russian production, which is five to seven times the speed of sound, will appear in 2017, told RIA Novosti on Wednesday, Chief Executive Officer and Director General of "BrahMos", which is engaged in the development of similar missiles Shivatanu Pillay.

"I think we need about five years to ensure that there was a first prototype of a full-featured (promising hypersonic missiles), that is, the development will be completed within five years" - he said at the International Forum "Engineering Technologies-2012" in suburbs.

Pillay said that it is about creating a whole new generation of missile platforms - land, air and sea-based. At the same time for at least three years is only necessary to launch a prototype of this family was born "in the metal," said the official.

"We've had a series of preliminary laboratory tests at a speed of Mach 6.5 (6.5-fold excess of the speed of sound). We work together with Russia's Moscow Aviation Institute and Indian Institute of research," - added the CEO.

He stressed that the missile project will be delivered only in India and Russia, and the ability to export a promising developments in other countries is not considered.

Earlier on Wednesday, Pillay also announced that the supersonic (not hypersonic) missile "Brahmos" entered service the Air Force in India in 2014.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

kit wrote: :D OT , but precisely the reason why the US is turning towards all aspect stealth for its missile programs as well .You can not hit what you cant see.
The Skyshield (as one example) is not solely RADAR controlled. Stealth only works for RADAR detection.

The Skyshield also has optical and IR detection capabilities, as depicted in the youtubed videos above. This means, if it's got a motor or engine of any kind, it's giving-off heat that the Skyshield can detect, target and destroy. Presumably, the temperature differential between the sky and even an unpowered, yet fast-moving object, should be sufficient to detect. RAM serves no purpose against IR detection.

However, consider; de-orbiting objects and hypersonic missiles will be detectable because of the heat of friction from flying through the air; YET unpowered bombs coated with RAM, dropped (from a stand-off distance) on a moonless night, particularly if during winter/cold........ That might be the weakness of the Skyshield depicted above.

As for optical detection: If it's flying through the sky, then it's flying against the sky as background. Combine a fancy telescope with an enormous number of 'megapixels' of video capture, mated to a fast computer; and this is simply a question of the computer identifying pixels that change colour/intensity/hue, and plotting that information as a 3D trajectory. All the RAM in the world, isn't going to defeat this.

By now, I am sure some smart cracker has added a LASER illuminator that can scan even pitch-black skies for soot-black objects. So, even unpowered bombs coated with RAM, dropped (from a stand-off distance) on a moonless night during the dead of winter......... Somebody has that box checked-off already, I'm sure.

[Honestly, the evolution of these competing technologies is fascinating, and more than a little depressing at the same time :( . Just think about what else (better, more useful) could have been discovered, engineered and constructed/provided; using the same material, financial and intellectual resources. No matter if you're a 'hawk' or a 'dove'; you've gotta admit, sowing the seeds of destruction leads to a bitter harvest, and this is not sustainable.]
kit
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by kit »

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:
kit wrote: :D OT , but precisely the reason why the US is turning towards all aspect stealth for its missile programs as well .You can not hit what you cant see.


[Honestly, the evolution of these competing technologies is fascinating, and more than a little depressing at the same time :( . Just think about what else (better, more useful) could have been discovered, engineered and constructed/provided; using the same material, financial and intellectual resources. No matter if you're a 'hawk' or a 'dove'; you've gotta admit, sowing the seeds of destruction leads to a bitter harvest, and this is not sustainable.]
Yep ., that being the point.The beginning and end.Threats and solutions continually evolve, a basic law of nature.Some 'bright' chap some where will always try to be ahead in the curve.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SandeepS »

rohitvats wrote:
SandeepS wrote:I am not familiar with the formation units of Mech (I) AD Bde so I am happy to be updated. If I can confirm this info, then I will drop a line here to indicate. But (I) AD Bde have AD Regt, Light AD Regt or Light AD (Comp) Regt only. I do not have any open source reference at hand on this to share and I realise it might be difficult for you too, but in case you have any that show SP AD/SP Msl Grp as part of (I) AD Bde then please do share.

On SP AD being part of Armd Div, I am very sure that I have seen their eqpt sporting the Armd Div's div sign but I can't for the life of me remember the details though I do know they were part of one of the original Strike Corps. I will like to point out my info could be dated, so it could have changed now.
As I said earlier, SP MSL Groups are directly under the Corps and not part of any brigades. On the SP AD being part of Armored Division(s), I stand corrected. Here is a pic of Tungushka systems in RD Parade with formation sign of 31 Armd Division. (http://pib.nic.in/photo/2006/Jan/l200601267174.jpg
I am glad that I was not going cuckoo that SP AD is part of Armd Div, however your find of Tungushka with 31 Armd Div for RD 2006 is intriguing. I want to believe that Tungushka will be part of SP Msl Grp (and not SP AD) but then it would be contrary to our understanding that SP Msl Grp are Corps/Cmd formation units and SP AD are Div units. I think the key will be to understand the formation units of Mech (I) AD Bde and whether it is a Corps or Cmd formation unit itself. Mech (I) AD Bde is a relatively new kid on the block (as compared to (I) AD Bde) and I am not aware of its role nor its organisation.

BTW, sorry about misreading your statement on SP Msl Grp.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by gkriish »

Brahmos Hypersonic Missile to be ready by 2017

The first prototype of a hypersonic cruise missile being jointly developed by Russia and India will be ready for flight testing in 2017, CEO of the Russian-Indian joint venture Brahmos Aerospace, Sivathanu Pillai, said on Wednesday.
Russia and India have recently agreed to develop hypersonic BrahMos 2 missile capable of flying at speeds of Mach 5-Mach 7.
“I think we will need about five years to develop the first fully-functional prototype [of the hypersonic missile],” Pillai said at an engineering technology forum near Moscow.
“We have already carried out a series of lab tests [of the missile] at the speed of 6.5 Mach,” he said.




Pillai said that the new missile will be made in three variants – ground-launched, airborne, and sea-launched.
The official said the new missiles will be supplied only to India and Russia, without exports to third countries.
Established in 1998, BrahMos Aerospace Ltd, a Russian-Indian joint venture currently manufactures BrahMos supersonic
cruise missiles based on the Russian-designed NPO Mashinostroyenie 3M55 Yakhont (SS-N-26).
The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 km (180 miles) and can carry a conventional warhead of up to 300 kg (660 lbs).
It can effectively engage targets from an altitude as low as 10 meters (30 feet) and has a top speed of Mach 2.8, which is about three times faster than the U.S.-made subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile.
Sea- and ground-launched versions have been successfully tested and put into service with the Indian Army and Navy.
The flight tests of the airborne version will be completed by the end of 2012.
The Indian Air Force is planning to arm 40 Su-30MKI Flanker-H fighters with BrahMos missiles.
http://en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120627/174271289.html
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=19213
  • After the test, media reports said that advanced hypersonic missile would be able to bomb anywhere in the world within an hour.
  • The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 km ..
yup! if we can launch it from 290 km away from the intended target.. anywhere in the world.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

SaiK wrote:http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19213
  • After the test, media reports said that advanced hypersonic missile would be able to bomb anywhere in the world within an hour.
  • The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 km ..
yup! if we can launch it from 290 km away from the intended target.. anywhere in the world.

SaiK, Its the RNI factor in DDM. The reporter was writing about the US test and not the proposed Indian test of hypersonic weapon. The reporter mentally thinks he is in US. And mixes all the news. If his intent was to say the Indian-Russian venture is the second after US he should have stopped after that. But what do you expect form PTI. Its full of dorks.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by bhavin »

SaiK wrote:http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19213
  • After the test, media reports said that advanced hypersonic missile would be able to bomb anywhere in the world within an hour.
  • The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 km ..
yup! if we can launch it from 290 km away from the intended target.. anywhere in the world.
In all honesty, SaiKji - the reporter did say "currently" before laying down specs for current generation Brahmos
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Really stupid question.

Prahaar and AAD are same missiles right ? Where are the differences? Can they be used interchangebly. So same missile on west border take out a incoming missile or be used in Surface to Surface mode to take out a stationary target ? Can they be packaged similarly ?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Kanson »

John wrote:But AAA guns have been converted into quite capable infantry fighting vehicles (as we saw during the Libyan conflict), which raises a question why not develop artillery/AAA system like Otomatic?
I kind of like Otomatic - always head turner if it is dual use. Any use of these rests on the doctrine, the way Army wants to fight. That's up to them.
kit wrote:OT , but precisely the reason why the US is turning towards all aspect stealth for its missile programs as well .You can not hit what you cant see.
You see, always these are cat & mouse game. While stealthiness of the missiles can be increased, and everyone is trying at all possible level, the potential of sensors that can find these stealthy objects are also increasing. Soon, these missiles has to tackle sensors both in ground, air and sky.
Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:Actually, there is a very good reason never to give up on guns for AD -- once a gun is fired, the projectile is virtually impervious to ECM -- unlike any guided missile fired in an AD engagement. Susceptibility ECM is the major inherent weakness with guided missiles.
Apart from this, one who can field cheaper/cheapest but effective all-around solutions do have higher chances of winning, particularly Attrition warfare. Even Super Power like US can't be oblivious to this fact.
Last edited by Kanson on 30 Jun 2012 10:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Kanson »

Cybaru wrote:Really stupid question.

Prahaar and AAD are same missiles right ? Where are the differences? Can they be used interchangebly. So same missile on west border take out a incoming missile or be used in Surface to Surface mode to take out a stationary target ? Can they be packaged similarly ?
No, that won't be the case. Even dimensions are different if we go by the news.

Basically, charge of AAD is in the range of less than 30 kg. To be effective in eliminating ground targets, Prahaar should carry at the minimum 100 kg of explosive charges and it is capable of carrying something more than 200 kg solidly. What is the count for Smerch MBRL?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Kanson »

Saik/Ramana ji
India and Russia [ Images ] could be one of the first nations in the world to flight test hypersonic missiles, which fly at five to seven times the speed of sound, giving them capability for a prompt global strike.
-----
The official said the new missiles will be supplied only to India and Russia.
1. Reason for comparison with US PGS may be hypersonic Brahmos too could adorn that role considering that this missile is not for export, it range won't be limited to 300 km ?

2. If Russia agrees/concedes to US notion of non ballistic trajectory for PGS program, Russia may think to develop its own such program to enable parity?

3. Brahmos to justify its cost may have to develop something unique considering other competitive programs within DRDO are trying to eat into Brahmos share?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Pranav »

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote: What makes this system special is the "AHEAD 35mm" air defense ammunition, explained in the latter half of the first video.
Interesting ... muzzle velocity is 1400 m/sec ... i.e. around Mach 4.

That is why you need missiles with speeds around Mach 7 or 8 plus maneuverability. Stealth too.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

Kanson wrote:1. Reason for comparison with US PGS may be hypersonic Brahmos too could adorn that role considering that this missile is not for export, it range won't be limited to 300 km ?
Range will have to be limited to 300Km because of Russian MTCR obligation ...since its JV they will have to comply with MTCR obligation and keep the range and warhead within those.
2. If Russia agrees/concedes to US notion of non ballistic trajectory for PGS program, Russia may think to develop its own such program to enable parity?
They already have programs that are similar to US hypersonic program that of of strategic nature but are classified in nature , the only known hypersonic missile so far disclosed is Zircon-S hypersonic missile.
3. Brahmos to justify its cost may have to develop something unique considering other competitive programs within DRDO are trying to eat into Brahmos share?
DRDO is already developing a 600 km Supersonic Missile and plus subsonic variant Nirbhay ....Brahmos is more in tactical category very useful in Indo-Pak scenario.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

With Kanson's Q&A going on, I am encouraged to ask,

we keep hearing about Rustom, and plans to arm it, but no missiles are mentioned, which ones from the current inventory are more suitable for arming the UAVs and UCAVs?

these armaments give a insight into the operational roles as seen by the armed forces, oh yeah, if a predator like capability is in the offing?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

Pranav wrote:Interesting ... muzzle velocity is 1400 m/sec ... i.e. around Mach 4.

That is why you need missiles with speeds around Mach 7 or 8 plus maneuverability. Stealth too.
Not really necessary to deal with AAA fire main reason for the increasing speeds is reduction in engagement time (remember the failed Osama Tomahawk strike in afghanistan by Clinton?), small caliber AD guns don't even have stopping power to take out sub sonic missiles let alone supersonic ones' (which British found out when they were trying to shoot down V-1s in WW2) you either need relatively high rate of fire (gatling) or larger caliber guns.

35 mm Skyshield is good but i am not sure if dozen 35 mm bullets can really deter a missile the size of Brahmos or moskit from hitting its target much rather have a hit to kill missile rip the thing in half.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by VikramS »

John:

It is not 35mm ammunition; the ammunition itself splits into small tungsten balls.

http://defense-update.com/products/a/ahead.htm

It seems the TSPA has 60 of these guns too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_35_mm_twin_cannon
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Indrajit »

It says 200 units with 60 AHEAD units modified.It is quite a potent system it seems,the list of users says it all.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Kanson »

Austin wrote:They already have programs that are similar to US hypersonic program that of of strategic nature but are classified in nature , the only known hypersonic missile so far disclosed is Zircon-S hypersonic missile.
Of course they do have hypersonic program like we do have our own program. This doesn't stopped us from getting into hypersonic Brahmos and neither them.

From purely air launched, hypersonic brahmos moved to multi platform candidate including ship launched. Zircon-S fills the same footprint and do the same role as that of hypersonic Brahmos. Why to invest in two different programs to do the same job? Russian press is equating Zircon-S as Brahmos-2.
Austin wrote:DRDO is already developing a 600 km Supersonic Missile and plus subsonic variant Nirbhay ....Brahmos is more in tactical category very useful in Indo-Pak scenario
US, Russia, France and probably other powers like China are creating long range (1000+ km) ramjet/scramjet varieties. Why would India sit idle and loose the initiative of leading the pack with fastest missile so far? Let's see. Do update us with latest news.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Kanson »

vasu raya wrote:With Kanson's Q&A going on, I am encouraged to ask,

we keep hearing about Rustom, and plans to arm it, but no missiles are mentioned, which ones from the current inventory are more suitable for arming the UAVs and UCAVs?

these armaments give a insight into the operational roles as seen by the armed forces, oh yeah, if a predator like capability is in the offing?
Sir ji, already news is out that HELINA is the candidate.

If expected capability of the Rustom is Predator like, it is more than obvious in what roles it will be used. As Predator is fitted with Hellfire, for Rustom it will be an Hellfire equivalent, HELINA.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

Kanson wrote:Why to invest in two different programs to do the same job?
Range limitation of MTCR under 300 km means that Russian MOD is reluctant to induct it , far too short of minimum 500 km range that Soviet Navy had specified in 80's to deal with NATO threats , export models are however promoted within mtcr restrictions.
Russian press is equating Zircon-S as Brahmos-2.
Zircon-S was reveled recently as a program for submarine launched hypersonic cruise missile for new 885M class of SSGN under construction. Brahmos-2 is a JV program with India different from their own strategic hypersonic program. this may replace the Shipwreck and P-1000 Vulkan in RuN on submarines and surface ship.

link
"Project 885M subs will have hypersonic cruise missiles with maneuvering warheads capable to fly up to 1,000 km,
Seems like the bubble to deal with NATO/USN CVBG has now been doubled affording greater stand off range or better range with lo-lo profile.

Shipwreck had a hi-lo profile of 500-600 km but in Lo-Lo trajectory it could do ~ 200 km
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

Pranav wrote:
Ravi Karumanchiri wrote: What makes this system special is the "AHEAD 35mm" air defense ammunition, explained in the latter half of the first video.
Interesting ... muzzle velocity is 1400 m/sec ... i.e. around Mach 4.

That is why you need missiles with speeds around Mach 7 or 8 plus maneuverability. Stealth too.
I'm sure this is obvious, but I'm going to mention it just because what you've written here seems to overlook it.....

With an AD system like the Skyshield with AHEAD 35mm ammo; the closing speed of the target missile isn't really a concern. It isn't like the Skyshield projectiles are trying a "tail chase" of a faster missile. Rather, the inverse is true: The missile is inbound to where the Skyshield is waiting. In other words, you'll know where the missile is headed (your high value target), so that's where Skyshield will shoot. Assuming there are other radar/detection systems to raise the alarm earlier, the Skyshield fire control radars should have no problem computing a firing solution that accounts for multiple 'intercept points', or probably more like an 'intercept vector', with the lower limits of that vector affording the 'bogey' an EXTREMELY low probability of success.

When such a system is deployed in a well thought-out constellation; even extremely convoluted terminal maneuvers may not be enough to get through to hit the target. And those tungsten pellets in the AHEAD rounds are more than enough to shred whatever flies.

The only kind of inbound threat I can think of that would conceivably be impervious to direct hits from Skyshield's AHEAD 35mm rounds has been called "Rods from the Gods" (conceived by Amreekhans as enormous tungsten poles, deployed in space and de-orbited by fast rockets, precisely, vertically, onto a target burried deep underground, if it can be found).

Of course, "Rods from the Gods" hasn't been developed yet, but likely wouldn't be used against a target guarded by AD anyway; since it is probably only ever to be used for a supposedly 'hidden' target, like a command bunker or other underground bunker.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_20453 »

I agree the sky shield is an ideal system for ground based guns, truly impressed with its features, we need to order it pronto with local manufacture. If true and Pak has this system with Ahead, low level flight for our aircraft is a real massive risk, best to fly high and cleanse the area of these guns or else our front line fighters are in serious trouble.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Pranav »

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote: I'm sure this is obvious, but I'm going to mention it just because what you've written here seems to overlook it.....

With an AD system like the Skyshield with AHEAD 35mm ammo; the closing speed of the target missile isn't really a concern. It isn't like the Skyshield projectiles are trying a "tail chase" of a faster missile. Rather, the inverse is true: The missile is inbound to where the Skyshield is waiting. In other words, you'll know where the missile is headed (your high value target), so that's where Skyshield will shoot. Assuming there are other radar/detection systems to raise the alarm earlier, the Skyshield fire control radars should have no problem computing a firing solution that accounts for multiple 'intercept points' ...
What I had in mind was a trajectory that varies sufficiently to render the intercept point calculation infructous. Variation could be in speed as well as direction.
The only kind of inbound threat I can think of that would conceivably be impervious to direct hits from Skyshield's AHEAD 35mm rounds has been called "Rods from the Gods" (conceived by Amreekhans as enormous tungsten poles, deployed in space and de-orbited by fast rockets, precisely, vertically, onto a target burried deep underground, if it can be found).
But the poles could also be deflected (although they would be a smaller target).
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

Pranav wrote:
Ravi Karumanchiri wrote: I'm sure this is obvious, but I'm going to mention it just because what you've written here seems to overlook it.....

With an AD system like the Skyshield with AHEAD 35mm ammo; the closing speed of the target missile isn't really a concern. It isn't like the Skyshield projectiles are trying a "tail chase" of a faster missile. Rather, the inverse is true: The missile is inbound to where the Skyshield is waiting. In other words, you'll know where the missile is headed (your high value target), so that's where Skyshield will shoot. Assuming there are other radar/detection systems to raise the alarm earlier, the Skyshield fire control radars should have no problem computing a firing solution that accounts for multiple 'intercept points' ...
What I had in mind was a trajectory that varies sufficiently to render the intercept point calculation infructous. Variation could be in speed as well as direction.
The only kind of inbound threat I can think of that would conceivably be impervious to direct hits from Skyshield's AHEAD 35mm rounds has been called "Rods from the Gods" (conceived by Amreekhans as enormous tungsten poles, deployed in space and de-orbited by fast rockets, precisely, vertically, onto a target burried deep underground, if it can be found).
But the poles could also be deflected (although they would be a smaller target).
Eccentric flight paths and high closing speeds do not go together so well that they can out-do a radar controlled AD gun. That's just a hunch; requiring testing, of course.

As for deflecting the poles conceived as "Rods from the Gods", you've gotta picture it properly to get the idea. I think the word "poles" gave you the idea of a patio umbrella pole? Maybe the pole in a goal post?

Think telephone pole, and you'll have a more accurate starting point. The thing is supposed to weigh multiple tonnes and kill only with kinetic energy, which it has MASSIVELY, considering it'll be doing mach 10-12 and will be travelling essentially vertically (so direct fire coming from the point of intended impact would not impart deflecting energy).

Also, the thing has no explosive warhead, so nothing to destroy as it's inbound. From what I understand, it's just a big, heavy pole of tungsten with guidance and rockets for added speed. It was suggested as an alternative to ground-penetrating nuclear weapons.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Pranav »

Another tactic would be to overwhelm the defenders with a large number of independent, randomly maneuvering warheads, all arriving at the same time.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

^^^^^^
Drop decoys first!
LOL! :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Pranav »

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:^^^^^^
Drop decoys first!
LOL! :rotfl:
To make optical tracking more difficult, the warheads should be light or dark colored depending upon whether the attack needs to happen during the day or night.

The warheads should perhaps be accelerated to Mach 4 or 5, and then be allowed to coast to the target from about 7 or 8 km away (say last 10 seconds of flight), to reduce infrared signature. (Speed should not be so high that surface gets too hot.)

The shape and surface should be designed for low RCS. Also plan for terrain hugging trajectories?

Should carry out random trajectory adjustments every 0.1 seconds say. I wonder if impulsive acceleration too might be possible through shaped explosives.

Multiple warheads (say several dozen) arriving at once.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

With an AD system like the Skyshield with AHEAD 35mm ammo; the closing speed of the target missile isn't really a concern. It isn't like the Skyshield projectiles are trying a "tail chase" of a faster missile. Rather, the inverse is true: The missile is inbound to where the Skyshield is waiting. In other words, you'll know where the missile is headed (your high value target), so that's where Skyshield will shoot. Assuming there are other radar/detection systems to raise the alarm earlier, the Skyshield fire control radars should have no problem computing a firing solution that accounts for multiple 'intercept points', or probably more like an 'intercept vector', with the lower limits of that vector affording the 'bogey' an EXTREMELY low probability of success.
Ahead is not very useful against cruise missiles' mainly because you cannot predict their flight path that easily they are not unguided missiles you literally have to fire dozens of rounds to intercept one, for naval CIWS it may work since the intercept window is relatively small but when missile is headed to land based installation you are talking a sq mile that you need to saturate with Ahead ammo and not to mention damage to civilian infrastructure from these rounds going off close to the ground.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

is the AHEAD ammo the next Kongsberg NSM...apparently all milk and honey per internet accounts but later proved to have huge gaps in real world? (the kongsberg is a export failure and is said to be effective only in littoral cluttered water near the baltic states)
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

Rakshaks,

Yesterday I wrote a response to several of the previous posts in this thread. Today, I see it was not successfully posted, so I'm gonna try again.... more briefly this time....
Pranav wrote: To make optical tracking more difficult, the warheads should be light or dark colored depending upon whether the attack needs to happen during the day or night.
I believe the detection spectrum for the system is beyond merely the visible wavelengths. Current systems rely more heavily on the IR and UV spectrums, rather than just visible light. Moreover, when combined with laser rangefinding, even a seemingly soot black object flying through the air on a moonless night can be illuminated, targetted and destroyed. Please remember ECM has no effect on IR and UV-reliant targetting systems, so stealth means squat in a modern AD scenario.
Pranav wrote: The warheads should perhaps be accelerated to Mach 4 or 5, and then be allowed to coast to the target from about 7 or 8 km away (say last 10 seconds of flight), to reduce infrared signature. (Speed should not be so high that surface gets too hot.)
Any object travelling through the atmosphere at mach 4 or 5 is going to be hot. Moreover, if such an object has to travel for 7-8 kms unpowered, it's not going to be supersonic by the time it reaches the target area. It will, however, be red hot, and therefore also brilliantly visible in the IR spectrum ("stealth" be damned).
Pranav wrote: The shape and surface should be designed for low RCS. Also plan for terrain hugging trajectories?
In an integrated AD environment, radardetection units and firing units (of whichever description) are all widely dispersed and networked. This means that even a radar signal that is successfully deflected by an appropriatly shaped low-RCS PGM, will likely be deflected onto the receiving array of another radar/detection unit. This is "errant signal detection", which is why stealth is less effective against a networked adversary, as is typically the case with modern AD deployments of a fixed (and well thought-out) nature. Needless to say, the potentiality of 'bogies' following "terrain hugging trajectories" is a major part of such deliberate AD planning.
Pranav wrote: Should carry out random trajectory adjustments every 0.1 seconds say. I wonder if impulsive acceleration too might be possible through shaped explosives.
Random trajectory adjustments? Better bring extra fuel.
Impulsive acceleration of hypersonic vehicles traveling in atmosphere using shaped explosives? Better armour the missile against explosive shockwaves/forces.

Therefore, this will have to be a (1) very fast missile/pgm that is also (2) large enough for the added fuel and armour (so therefore also heavy), yet it is also (3) highly maneuverable? Good luck with all that! (While I have faith in DRDO scientists, I am also sure they're clever enough not to apply an engineering solution to every challenge; i.e. why out-engineer a system that can be defeated by attrition? Better to spend the money on "quantity" in such a scenario; rather than divert engineering expertise into making a Skyshield-killing missile/PGM with a high hit-to-kill ratio.) As per their own claims, the Skyshield refered to in the above youtubed videos can handle 20 engagements with pre-loaded ammunition. More importantly, like all guns, they heat up and cannot be fired indefinitely without a cooling-off period. This cooling off period, combined with the capacity limitation of stored ammo; altogether this points to a better way to defeat the Skyshield (attrition).

ADDED LATER: This brings to mind again the idea of a IGMDP CM that would perform like the BrahMos but would instead deploy a number of submunitions at the last moment, that would each follow a different trajectory in a "swarm", thereby drawing a lot of AHEAD fire and as a result, defeating Skyshield by attrition.

I know that the US has done a FMS deal with the IAF for the "Sensor Fuzed Weapon" which deploys a number of "smart skeet" submunitions that are each very small and individually capable of defeating an MBT. This is currently an air-dropped bomb, but there is probably not much of a reason why "smart skeets" cannot be delivered by a fast CM developed jointly by the DRDO and Textron Systems (makers of the "Sensor Fuzed Weapon").

Any word on how many/if the "Sensor Fuzed Weapon" has been delivered to the IAF already?
Any public talk of a JV between Textron and BrahMos? (That would exponentially increase the tactical capability profile of the BrahMos, with a single shot defeating multiple targets (using submunitions a la "BLU-108").)
John wrote: Ahead is not very useful against cruise missiles' mainly because you cannot predict their flight path that easily they are not unguided missiles you literally have to fire dozens of rounds to intercept one, for naval CIWS it may work since the intercept window is relatively small but when missile is headed to land based installation you are talking a sq mile that you need to saturate with Ahead ammo and not to mention damage to civilian infrastructure from these rounds going off close to the ground.
AHEAD is deployed in a counter-CM role by a number of NATO and non-NATO countries around the world. I think the video youtubed above mentions that each engagement typically involves 24 shells, each exploding and releasing 152 tungsten penetrators that are spin-stabalized, each weighing 3.3g (and travelling around mach 4-5 in a blast-cone shape aimed AHEAD of the bogey, consisting of *3648* separate projectiles). So, to address your post, yes, dozens of rounds are used per engagement, and this is normal, as is protecting square miles of area from incoming, fast-moving targets like CMs.

As for "damage to civilian infrastructure from these rounds going off close to the ground"; I would suggest this is vastly preferable to not having AD and basically inviting an air raid against something like a nuclear power reactor or hydroelectic dam, for obvious reasons. Ideally, AD wouldn't be needed. Even if it is needed, ideally it is not used (because it's a deterrant). If it must be used, then it is better to use it to down incoming bogeys (PGMs of various description); than to allow a successful attack to take place, for the sake of civilians. Wouldn't you agree?
Singha wrote:is the AHEAD ammo the next Kongsberg NSM...apparently all milk and honey per internet accounts but later proved to have huge gaps in real world? (the kongsberg is a export failure and is said to be effective only in littoral cluttered water near the baltic states)
I am unfamiliar with Kongsberg NSM, but the Skyshield has been an export success, and has succeeded in a number of qualification and user trials by NATO and non-NATO coutries around the world. A number of countries continue upgrade programs.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:AHEAD is deployed in a counter-CM role by a number of NATO and non-NATO countries around the world. I think the video youtubed above mentions that each engagement typically involves 24 shells, each exploding and releasing 152 tungsten penetrators that are spin-stabalized, each weighing 3.3g (and travelling around mach 4-5 in a blast-cone shape aimed AHEAD of the bogey, consisting of *3648* separate projectiles). So, to address your post, yes, dozens of rounds are used per engagement, and this is normal, as is protecting square miles of area from incoming, fast-moving targets like CMs.

As for "damage to civilian infrastructure from these rounds going off close to the ground"; I would suggest this is vastly preferable to not having AD and basically inviting an air raid against something like a nuclear power reactor or hydroelectic dam, for obvious reasons. Ideally, AD wouldn't be needed. Even if it is needed, ideally it is not used (because it's a deterrant). If it must be used, then it is better to use it to down incoming bogeys (PGMs of various description); than to allow a successful attack to take place, for the sake of civilians. Wouldn't you agree?
Source for this info? AHEAD was deployed for C-RAM, i haven't ready anywhere that AHEAD has been deploying for shooting down cruise missile defense in NATO bases'.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by VikramS »

Regarding the AHEAD ammo: Think in terms of probability.

What is the cone in which an incoming bogey is likely to be during the flight-time of the AHEAD round and given its vector right before the shell was fired?

Also realize that the probability of a single pellet disabling the missile is not insignificant; they are jam packed and do not have too many redundant systems which can take over if one fails.

The AHEAD system creates a wall of these pellets in the anticipated flight path. You would require a significant amount of random maneuvers to confuse a system like this; any movement, eccentric or not has to be random to preclude the prediction algorithms from locking on to it.. And if you have a pair of such guns each firing in synchronized manner with small adjustments to account for any random movements, the probability of some hits are likely to be even higher. The beauty of the system is that its flight time is programmed based on the shell's velocity, so takes into account physical variations, between shells, the gun's turrets etc. without degrading the accuracy.

The best defense against a system like this to destroy the tracking radars, which guide the guns. Being an area weapon these radars would not be easy to locate from a stand-off distances, especially in a net-centric A/D system where the radar can be kept dark until the bogey is within range. It seems the time to fire is a few seconds, which makes sense especially if the radar has already been queued to the location it has to look at.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Ravi wrote: In an integrated AD environment, radardetection units and firing units (of whichever description) are all widely dispersed and networked. This means that even a radar signal that is successfully deflected by an appropriatly shaped low-RCS PGM, will likely be deflected onto the receiving array of another radar/detection unit. This is "errant signal detection", which is why stealth is less effective against a networked adversary, as is typically the case with modern AD deployments of a fixed (and well thought-out) nature.

This is bi-multistatic radar detection and still a huge engineering problem. Very few in service systems, if any utilizing anything similar. India aims to field something similar in the future, but right now, its one radar & its set of targets, and so forth. With sensor fusion eliminating repeats and presenting a single picture

Somebody mentioned whether Pakistan has these AHEAD rounds...right now, there is no evidence to suggest they do.

They claim to have 60 guns that were upgraded and could be made AHEAD compatible. That's mostly net speculation and there are no reports that I could find saying they received AHEAD.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

^^^^^^
John wrote: Source for this info? AHEAD was deployed for C-RAM, i haven't ready anywhere that AHEAD has been deploying for shooting down cruise missile defense in NATO bases'.
The C-RAM role is new for Skyshield/AHEAD, because it represents a bigger market (more talibunnies with mortars and rockets, then there are with CMs). The original purpose of Skyshield/AHEAD is very definitely counter-CMs.

Consider that the 'home base' for the system is in Germany, where the threat from rockets, mortars and artillery has been low since 1945; while the CM threat has been quite extensive (now, not so much, since the end of the so-called 'Cold War').

Five seconds of Googling revealed.... http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ems/mg.htm
This page discusses a naval variant of the Skyshield/AHEAD system known as the "Millenium Gun", developed jointly by Lockheed Martin and Oerlikon Contraves in 2002. In the second-to-last paragraph, it reads "Testing has shown it to be lethal against aircraft and helicopters at 3.5 km, against cruise missiles at 2 km, and against anti-ship sea-skimming missiles at 1.5 km."

The only reason that Skyshield/AHEAD is being aggressively marketed in the C-RAM role is because Israel is on the market for such a system. The German Army's need to counter Taliban rocket/mortar fire is coming to an end, which leaves Israel as the prime market for Skyshield/AHEAD in the C-RAM role.
Last edited by Ravi Karumanchiri on 04 Jul 2012 05:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

Karan M wrote: Somebody mentioned whether Pakistan has these AHEAD rounds...right now, there is no evidence to suggest they do.
Please read: "Pakistan to co-produce Oerlikon 35mm ammo" http://theasiandefence.blogspot.ca/2009 ... -35mm.html

A bit of Googling also revealed some doubts as to the state/readiness of the TSP's collection of guns/radars, so, I don't know what that says about their preparedness. From a planning perspective, it would be wise to assume the TSP's claims of 60 guns is accurate.
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