Su-30: News and Discussion

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 15 Jun 2012 12:02

srai wrote:^^^

It was raised in Pune in 2009 but in October 2011 it moved to Jodhpur.

looks like i missed that.. anyways thanks for update!

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Jun 2012 11:49

I had missed this ... Su-30MKI dropping a Griffin LGB at Vayu Shakti 2010:

kit · Post by **kit** » 27 Jun 2012 17:20

adityadange wrote:one question, maybe silly. i havent come across any material mentioning our MKIs can carry nuclear weapons. Can somebody please tell me whether they are nuclear capable or not?

There was some news that a squadron of MKI s are being raised specifically for the nuclear command.

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Jun 2012 22:26

^^^

From news reports, Strategic Forces Command has a requirement for 2 squadrons (40 aircrafts) of dedicated aerial platform for nuclear strike. Rumors had Mirage-2000/Su-30MKI as candidates.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jun 2012 07:49

it would make sense to have a mix unit of Su30/Rafale for the role to take advantage of the combined might of both.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 28 Jun 2012 11:13

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1295918

pragnya wrote:
Rahul M wrote:sure ?

Jagan thinks it's halwara.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units ... drons.html
rahul,

the statesman link quotes a 'senior' IAF official and confirms that a squadron of SU 30MKI is based in kalaikunda airbase (30th sept 2011) which is not recorded in the BRF link above. can it be corrected please?

part of the actual quote - We are at present hosting an Su-30 MKI squadron in Kalaikunda, though we cannot divulge much details about its utility. Regular weapons practice, though, is underway with the Su-30 MKIs in Dudhkundi firing range,” said another senior IAF official.

adding on to the above, there is atleast one link which says Jodhpur 'does' base SU 30MKI 'albeit' not explicitly.

Following the mishape all 120 Su-30 MKI in five bases (Pune, Bareilly, Tezpur, Chabua and Jodhpur) were grounded,

http://defense-update.com/20111217_indi ... blems.html

however there was enough reports in 2011 like this one which did speak of Jodhpur would get the MKIs.

"We have decided to deploy two squadrons of Su-30MKI fighter squadrons in Jodhpur in next two years," South Western Air Command chief Air Marshal A K Gogoi told reporters here.

Gogoi is on a three-day visit to the air force bases in and around Jodhpur.

Jodhpur will be the first Su-30MKI base along the Pakistan border. Till now, the IAF has deployed its main strike fighter in Lohegaon near Pune, Bareilly, and Tezpur and Chabua in Assam.

IAF also plans to deploy the aircraft at its Halwara air base in Punjab.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... e-su-30mki

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Jun 2012 16:40

^^^I have seen SU-30MKI in Jodhpur...as the base also hosts the civilian terminal, one can see the MKIs parked as the civilian a/c roll in and out.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 28 Jun 2012 18:29

what is the number of SU 30MKIs in the IAF??

if one keeps aside the last order of 42 (supposed to carry brahmos/nirbhay) which will happen between 2014-2018, it is the balance of 230 which needs clarification.

IIRC Russia has delivered all the 50 of the first lot - by 2004, which means it is all about HAL.

now atleast till nov.2011 99 were delivered by HAL as per MOS Mr. Pallam Raju - confirmed by PIB. however ex HAL chairman Ashok Nayak had said 105 delivered -

HAL’s boss Ashok Nayak has said recently that his corporation had delivered “about 105 Su-30MKI planes” to IAF, with the Indian Defence Ministry expected to order 42 fighters more, driving the total number of HAL-assembled Su-30MKIs up to 222 units.

but it is reasonable to expect more has been added as this quote of Mr. Ashok Nayak is atleast 7 months old. he retired in oct 2011. even if he made that statement at the very fag end of his tenure - now considering HAL was delivering 12/year it is safe to assume another 7 may have been delivered by HAL till date to bring the total to 112 (HAL supplied).

so total SU 30MKIs with IAF would be 50+112-3=159 as on today IMO. srai, CM??

added later : @aditya_V, thanks. corrected.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Jun 2012 18:41

Less 3 for crashes

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 28 Jun 2012 20:56

pragnya wrote:what is the number of SU 30MKIs in the IAF??

if one keeps aside the last order of 42 (supposed to carry brahmos/nirbhay) which will happen between 2014-2018, it is the balance of 230 which needs clarification.

IIRC Russia has delivered all the 50 of the first lot - by 2004, which means it is all about HAL.

now atleast till nov.2011 99 were delivered by HAL as per MOS Mr. Pallam Raju - confirmed by PIB. however ex HAL chairman Ashok Nayak had said 105 delivered -

HAL’s boss Ashok Nayak has said recently that his corporation had delivered “about 105 Su-30MKI planes” to IAF, with the Indian Defence Ministry expected to order 42 fighters more, driving the total number of HAL-assembled Su-30MKIs up to 222 units.
but it is reasonable to expect more has been added as this quote of Mr. Ashok Nayak is atleast 7 months old. he retired in oct 2011. even if he made that statement at the very fag end of his tenure - now considering HAL was delivering 12/year it is safe to assume another 7 may have been delivered by HAL till date to bring the total to 112 (HAL supplied).

so total SU 30MKIs with IAF would be 50+112-3=159 as on today IMO. srai, CM??

added later : @aditya_V, thanks. corrected.

Delivery of the third batch of direct import is probably complete as indicated by AM Bhatia @ SP's. It could be very well 40+10+112+40-3=199. And under Nayak HAL assembled 16 units per year which is quite an achievement.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Jun 2012 21:45

That direct import batch of 40 is a bit of a mystery. There has been no news at all of any of those aircraft being delivered. Compared to that the deliveries of the Mig-29Ks and C-130s were covered by the media on multiple occasions.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 28 Jun 2012 22:24

Snehashish,

Delivery of the third batch of direct import is probably complete as indicated by AM Bhatia @ SP's. It could be very well 40+10+112+40-3=199.

can you point me to that link please?? thanks.

And under Nayak HAL assembled 16 units per year which is quite an achievement.

the plan was for 16/yr instead of 12/yr to speed up the delivery by 2014-15 but things have not panned out as per the plan. there was an issue of delay in receipt of the drawings from the russians besides the 'problem' of tech absorption/localistaion by the HAL (see the link below) which meant import of more of ckd/skd kits. the link does note the number to be around 150.

the IAF has around 150 SU 30MKIs

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 28 Jun 2012 23:10

nachiket wrote:That direct import batch of 40 is a bit of a mystery. There has been no news at all of any of those aircraft being delivered.

http://www.pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=55262

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Jun 2012 10:06

This is a good article reference on numbers of Su-30MKIs produced so far.

India Ordering, Modernizing Su-30MKI

...
Nov 23/11: Minister of State for Defence Shri MM PallamRaju is grilled about SU-30 deliveries by Parliamentarians in Rajya Sabha, and explains both the project history, and HAL’s manufacturing responses. So far, he says that “Out of the total 180 aircraft”, India has received 99 SU-30MKIs “till 2010-11”.
...

June 26/10: The Times of India reports that India’s Cabinet Committee for Security has cleared a nearly Rs 15,000 crore (about $3.3 billion) order for another 42 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters, for delivery by around 2018:

“The present order for 42 fighters was originally supposed to be 40, but two more were added to the order book to make up for the two crashed fighters. A senior official said that HAL is expected to complete all the SU-30 MKI orders by 2016-17 period…. last year it delivered 23 of these fighters, this year it is expected to produce 28. HAL has already supplied 74 of these fighters.”

...

When you add 99 (HAL manufactured) + 50 (Irkut manufactured), the total as of Nov 23, 2011 was 149 aircrafts.

Given that HAL is manufacturing 28 aircrafts per year, every month HAL is delivering around 2 aircrafts. So if we add 149 + 14 (2 x Dec 11, Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, May, Jun 2012) + 2 (1 additional every 3 month), we get 165 aircrafts as of July 1st, 2012.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jun 2012 10:10

HAL is likely not delivering 2 a/c per month to IAF but using quarterly deliveries of 7 such that a new squadron can use these initially and then fill up to full strength in the next qtr or two.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 29 Jun 2012 10:46

srai wrote:This is a good article reference on numbers of Su-30MKIs produced so far.

India Ordering, Modernizing Su-30MKI
...
Nov 23/11: Minister of State for Defence Shri MM PallamRaju is grilled about SU-30 deliveries by Parliamentarians in Rajya Sabha, and explains both the project history, and HAL’s manufacturing responses. So far, he says that “Out of the total 180 aircraft”, India has received 99 SU-30MKIs “till 2010-11”.
...

June 26/10: The Times of India reports that India’s Cabinet Committee for Security has cleared a nearly Rs 15,000 crore (about $3.3 billion) order for another 42 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters, for delivery by around 2018:

“The present order for 42 fighters was originally supposed to be 40, but two more were added to the order book to make up for the two crashed fighters. A senior official said that HAL is expected to complete all the SU-30 MKI orders by 2016-17 period…. last year it delivered 23 of these fighters, this year it is expected to produce 28. HAL has already supplied 74 of these fighters.”

...
When you add 99 (HAL manufactured) + 50 (Irkut manufactured), the total as of Nov 23, 2011 was 149 aircrafts.

Given that HAL is manufacturing 28 aircrafts per year, every month HAL is delivering around 2 aircrafts. So if we add 149 + 14 (2 x Dec 11, Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, May, Jun 2012) + 2 (1 additional every 3 month), we get 165 aircrafts as of July 1st, 2012.

There has been a lot of confusion on this issue because 'HAL Manufactured' includes the 2007 order for 40 a/c that is being assembled from semi knocked down kits by HAL. The 99 number as per MoS Defence's quote includes 35/37 odd aircraft from the 2007 order assembled from SKDs. HAL's production till 2011 calendar year end was only around 61 a/c..SB 161 was seen late last year.

When HAL said they were producing 28 a/c last year it was inlcuding a lot of the assembled 2007 orders.

I have the above on very good authority from a ex CMD of HAL and an ex air chief.

We will be lucky if HAL can produce 12 a/c a year for the next 3/4 years and the 2014/2015 deadline to complete the 140 order will be delayed till 2017/2018. These issues have been very well documented and flagged for a quite a while.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Jun 2012 11:15

^^^

Yes. My totals were inclusive of all 4 types of assembly -- (1) completely OEM, (2) SDK, (3) SDK + locally manufactured parts, and (4) mostly locally manufactured parts.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 Jun 2012 11:28

Well it seems it would have made more sense to get the second order of 40 directly manufactured from Irkut instead of HAL producing them from SKD kits. HAL could have then concentrated on ramping up production of the original order of 140.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 29 Jun 2012 12:05

nachiket wrote:Well it seems it would have made more sense to get the second order of 40 directly manufactured from Irkut instead of HAL producing them from SKD kits. HAL could have then concentrated on ramping up production of the original order of 140.

i concur with you.

what is the point in assembling when they have already moved on to the localised version?? particularly when it affects 'tech absorbtion' which is already delaying the delivery besides manpower is wasted which could be put to better use in ovehaul facilities.

does it have anything to do with cost?? not really!!! infact it is the other way round.

As of now, the cost of indigenous Su-30 MKI aircraft is higher than the cost of imported Su-30 MKI aircraft. But, as the indigenous content would increase in the later phases, the average cost of indigenously manufactured Su-30 MKI aircraft is estimated to be less than the cost of the imported aircraft for the total Su-30 MKI licensing manufacturing programme.

@srai,

have you accounted for 3 crashes - the same mistake i did till Aditya_V corrected me. i accounted for - till may 2011 and it came to 159.

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 Jun 2012 12:05

@Nacheket
The cost for the second batch already raised enough eyebrows.
Moving the assembly to Irkut would have further increased this.
And the IAF and MoD certainly don't want that.

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 Jun 2012 12:08

pragnya wrote:does it have anything to do with cost?? not really!!! infact it is the other way round.

The money will be transferred to HAL and not to Irkut for the assembly.
Thats actually not as bad IMO.
And from the link, it is the cost of indigenous AC. I think that differs from assembled one we are talking abt.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 29 Jun 2012 14:25

koti wrote:The money will be transferred to HAL and not to Irkut for the assembly.
Thats actually not as bad IMO.

what difference does it make?? GOI pays HAL which in turn pays to Russia for the ckd/skd kits. whichever way you look at it, the money ultimately goes to IRKUT right??

And from the link, it is the cost of indigenous AC.

exactly and which is why it would have made sense to get the 40 directly from IRKUT so that IAF could have got what they wanted. it would have saved on cost, man hours, time(which is a cost by itself) and HAL could have concentrated on the localisation aspect and building the first 140 in time.

I think that differs from assembled one we are talking abt.

there is no difference between the skd/ckd versions to what HAL is building at least wrt 140+40 'except' for the local raw materials being used which is a factor in delaying the deliveries (among other reasons). the last order of 42 however is different though - these are the upgraded ones which also will be built by HAL (after some a/c's are modified in Russia and tech transferred) but this is supposed to happen starting only 2014.

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 Jun 2012 14:33

Noted.

>>What difference does it make?? GOI pays HAL which in turn pays to Russia for the ckd/skd kits. whichever way you look at it, the money ultimately goes to IRKUT right??

Assembly, testing and transport is cost in itself. But it could be insignificant on the whole. This money can be spent in India.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 29 Jun 2012 15:29

koti wrote:>>What difference does it make?? GOI pays HAL which in turn pays to Russia for the ckd/skd kits. whichever way you look at it, the money ultimately goes to IRKUT right??

Assembly, testing and transport is cost in itself. But it could be insignificant on the whole. This money can be spent in India.

now the def.min was on record that the initial builds of HAL will cost more than the imported ones. however i do note the min's point is at least 6yrs old. things may have changed now but it is not up to the mark and add to that - IAF has reduced the timeline for faster induction which makes it difficult for HAL to keep the 2014 deadline for all 180.

spending in india is good if HAL gets to move up in the chain but due to it's inability to absorb the tech for various reasons, the delivery was getting hit as per the 'new' deadline which is why IAF wanted to speed up the process which meant HAL will build the 140 with 'localisation' - which is a PLUS - and the second 40 which was to be built by HAL (all till 2017-18) was replaced by direct import of skd/ckd kits/assembly to speed up the process by 2014-15 post which the 42 upgraded ones will take over.

but the larger point is what will HAL learn by assembling the kits?? it has already passed that stage. it is waste of manpower, time and cost. it needs to put its manpower on the localisation part which is far more beneficial in the long run both cost wise and capability wise.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jun 2012 16:02

imo licensed manufacture from raw material level is only of limited help. HAL will learn a few tools and processes, but it already has ample knowledge in similar vein from Hawk, Jaguar, Mig27 and soon MRCA program, not to speak of ALH, Cheetah, Cheetal....and the SU30 is not some gee-whiz next gen JSF bird with 0.01mm tolerances and stealthy airframe needing special techniques, its a conventional plane no different in airframe tech than say a Jag or Mig29.

the Radar processor back end is made by BEL/ECIL/DARE
the RF Radar front end is 100% owned by tikhomirov with no TOT specified
the engine could be one area of learning...its unclear how much tech we got and how much that is in use for kaveri et al - probably none seeing the lack of synergy among pgms.
various ECM/EW boxes come from LRDE/DARE/ECIL/BEL
some ECM/EW are imported
all the weapons except iron bombs (and soon sudarshan) are imported
the cockpit displays are imported sextant
the FCS and mission computer are Rus, with some indian inputs.

if the body panels, bolts, fittings, landing gears, tyres, consumable seals and bearings, engine parts can be localized to pvt sector players to teach them to operate at aerospace QC levels, it would be a benefit, not so beneficial if HAL consumes the lion share of that because they already do it for other pgms.

overall the gains are very limited even in best case vs a Tejas / LCH pgm were we own the design from the top down and every rivet and bolt has to be designed, accounted for and sourced from somewhere desi or bideshi....the proj mgmt challenges are huge vs license make and involves 100s of suppliers no doubt.

making ones one plane or heli is a whole new ball game. just as incrementally adding code to a product is much easier than doing a clean sheet product oneself. even a small clean sheet product is a big challenge.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 29 Jun 2012 16:42

@Singha

amen to that.

just a nitpick. even the sextant displays have been replaced by drdo-samtel MFD. the HUD iirc is still israeli as of now but is going to be replaced too. the BARS front end is AFAIK assembled at Hyderabad.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Jun 2012 23:05

Singha wrote:imo licensed manufacture from raw material level is only of limited help. HAL will learn a few tools and processes, but it already has ample knowledge in similar vein from Hawk, Jaguar, Mig27 and soon MRCA program, not to speak of ALH, Cheetah, Cheetal....and the SU30 is not some gee-whiz next gen JSF bird with 0.01mm tolerances and stealthy airframe needing special techniques, its a conventional plane no different in airframe tech than say a Jag or Mig29.

...

The main beneficiaries are other aerospace vendors (both public/private) in India. As HAL is mostly the lead integrator and final assembly, it will outsource a large number of parts. Hundreds of other smaller vendors will end up supplying different parts to HAL.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Jun 2012 23:08

pragnya wrote:...

@srai,

have you accounted for 3 crashes - the same mistake i did till Aditya_V corrected me. i accounted for - till may 2011 and it came to 159.

No. My totals were more to do with how many could have been delivered so far ... and not how many are in IAF service.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Jun 2012 23:15

pragnya wrote:...
but the larger point is what will HAL learn by assembling the kits?? it has already passed that stage. it is waste of manpower, time and cost. it needs to put its manpower on the localisation part which is far more beneficial in the long run both cost wise and capability wise.

HAL will soon be needing a large trained manpower for assembling 40 LCA Mk.1 (+100 Mk.2), 108 Rafale (+options), and 70+ IJT (+options).

member_23364 · Post by **member_23364** » 29 Jun 2012 23:39

@Singha

Good attempt to summarize, but few corrections below-

1. All SU-30MKI displays come from SAMTEL since late 2010/early 2011, made at their factory in Madhya Pradesh (forgot the name of the place)
2. BARS front end is made & assembled at Hyderabad (agree with pragnya)
3. In addition, as of early 2012, a lot of SU-30MKI parts are being made by Bangalore based small companies (based out of Peenya Industrial Estate and Hosur). These include cockpit switch-gear, some cabling, relays and a lot of "bits and pieces". These folks were roped in starting 2008 but their products are really being accepted since late 2011 (early QC issues maybe?)
4. MRF was supposed to start making tyres for the SU-30MKI long back. I am not sure if this has materialized. The major issue of the contract was, wait for it..., the size of the contract. Apparently, they were to receive a small contract first and based on the performance, get a bigger order, which was obviously, the thorn.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jul 2012 14:22

Seems like the right engine to upthrust the MKI and reduce its fuel consumption , the PLAAF too might find this very useful for their J-20 , 4 T of thrust addition is good.

FSUE “Gas-Turbine Engineering Research and Production Center “Salut” presented its upgraded AL-31F M2 engine to the general public

The upgraded AL-31F M2 engine has significantly augmented thrust (up to 14300 kgf) at all thrust ratings. In addition, the service life limit was increased to 3000 hours, the company noted.

The upgraded engine has new FADEC with hydro-mechanical backup control of the engine’s core allowing adapting it for any craft (analog or digital one).

“AL-31F engine is being upgraded without changing of its original dimensions and one of its aims is keeping the possibility of re-engining the whole fleet of Su-27 fighters operated in Russia and foreign countries without any modifications of jet’s airframe or nacelle, which may have caused additional costs“, - said CEO of Salut, Vladislav Masalov - “Equipping Su-27 fighters with these upgraded engines may significantly improve their aircraft performance”.

“The engine not only has the augmented thrust (+1000 kgf) but it also has lower specific fuel consumption as compared to its predecessor”, - said Chief designer, Gennady Skirdov - “Low pressure compressor, combustion chamber and high pressure turbine were refined”.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jul 2012 14:25

The key thing for AL-31FM2 engine is dimensionally its the same as FP engine and does not need redesigning the intake , for the 117S it would need redesigning the intake as the fan diameter of that engine is larger.

Reduction in fuel consumption and increase in service life of engine is a good bonus over increased thrust.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jul 2012 15:01

expect to see a deal for 200 engines with Cheen soon..for J20 type programs, the J20 sure needs more powerful engines given its size.."temporary measure until the WS-xx reaches maturity"

we might also buy it for future lots of SU30. I am not expecting IAF to stop at the current nos given the depleting nos at the low end and the never ending "last min hassles" to get the MRCA deal going.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jul 2012 16:31

I am sure the Chinese would love to get this engine on J-20 when it comes with no changes needed , should do a lot to power hungry J-20 and if its lower fuel consumption should add up to its long legs. The Russian would play the card well knowing how critical a good engine is for J-20 program.

I dont see any WS-XX engine coming close to AL-31FM2 in a decade from now and changing the engine mid way from AL-31 series to WS-XX is a pain as it calls for renew flight testing program and maintenance issues adding up to delays and cost overruns.

I suspect for most part J-20 will stick to AL-31 series much like our Tejas has stuck with F-404/414 series as changing engines mid way may not be cost effective.

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 12 Jul 2012 15:00

pragnya wrote:analysis by By Air Chief Marshal P V Naik (Retd)
The Indian Air Force and 24 x 7 Capabilities

Procurement of additional Su-30 is under progress. Our total numbers are going to be in excess of 270 Su-30s.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 12 Jul 2012 20:23

^^ more su-30s

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jul 2012 20:32

we should look at stealth (composite), engine and radar upgrades as well [preferable home grown].

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 12 Jul 2012 20:57

kmc_chacko wrote:^^ more su-30s

It would be safe to assume that the new ones will all be Super 30s. Begs the question, why aren't they planning to convert all impending Su30s into Super config with an add-on cost?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 12 Jul 2012 21:15

MN Kumar wrote:

Procurement of additional Su-30 is under progress. Our total numbers are going to be in excess of 270 Su-30s.

Looks like China factor is kicking in

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 12 Jul 2012 22:01

Dmurphy wrote:
kmc_chacko wrote:^^ more su-30s
It would be safe to assume that the new ones will all be Super 30s. Begs the question, why aren't they planning to convert all impending Su30s into Super config with an add-on cost?

I think we have got a pretty good versatile platform in the form of a MKI. For obvious reasons IAF may not be publisizing what they are trying with it.