Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby nakul » 13 Jul 2012 22:19

The large number of Indians that are indoctrinated is becoming smaller day by day. The reason it survived so long was the west was superior to the rest of the world in most walks of life. The day people start seeing the west like any other group bent upon serving its needs, the sheen will disappear.

Time is the greatest puller of strings. As things become less rosy for the west, the civilization with the greatest amount of admiration will define what is true and what is myth. Till that happens, the others & Indians will continue to see light coming from the west.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 13 Jul 2012 22:42

nakul wrote:The large number of Indians that are indoctrinated is becoming smaller day by day. The reason it survived so long was the west was superior to the rest of the world in most walks of life. The day people start seeing the west like any other group bent upon serving its needs, the sheen will disappear.

Time is the greatest puller of strings. As things become less rosy for the west, the civilization with the greatest amount of admiration will define what is true and what is myth. Till that happens, the others & Indians will continue to see light coming from the west.


Perhaps. but there is another point. I suspect that there has been a lot of bluffing and sly lies in the theories that have been built up. I will personally never be happy until I tear down what I see as wrong. I am not going to wait for things to change by themselves. I will try to be one of the creators of change by actively killing that which is wrong

If two views are diametrically opposite, only one can be right and if my view is right I am not going to deny myself the pleasure of crushing those who pushed lies and consigning the copious literature that supported those lies to the dustbin of history forever.

For me, that will not happen by waiting or by merely stating my viewpoint and saying "I am right and that satisfies me". No that does not satisfy me. We are right and the others are wrong. The latter part of the sentence is as important as the former. I am working on the latter half. If people such as yourself work on the first half of the sentence that is fine by me. I do what I think I need to do.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_23626 » 13 Jul 2012 23:35

shiv wrote:
nakul wrote:The large number of Indians that are indoctrinated is becoming smaller day by day. The reason it survived so long was the west was superior to the rest of the world in most walks of life. The day people start seeing the west like any other group bent upon serving its needs, the sheen will disappear.

Time is the greatest puller of strings. As things become less rosy for the west, the civilization with the greatest amount of admiration will define what is true and what is myth. Till that happens, the others & Indians will continue to see light coming from the west.


Perhaps. but there is another point. I suspect that there has been a lot of bluffing and sly lies in the theories that have been built up. I will personally never be happy until I tear down what I see as wrong. I am not going to wait for things to change by themselves. I will try to be one of the creators of change by actively killing that which is wrong

If two views are diametrically opposite, only one can be right and if my view is right I am not going to deny myself the pleasure of crushing those who pushed lies and consigning the copious literature that supported those lies to the dustbin of history forever.

For me, that will not happen by waiting or by merely stating my viewpoint and saying "I am right and that satisfies me". No that does not satisfy me. We are right and the others are wrong. The latter part of the sentence is as important as the former. I am working on the latter half. If people such as yourself work on the first half of the sentence that is fine by me. I do what I think I need to do.

The best option is to write blogs/articles/videos on u-toob etc. Choose the media that's most popular...

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jul 2012 15:28

shiv wrote:
nakul wrote:One is to convince ourselves that the vedas and purana are not myths and depict truth which may not fit our current worldview.

The other gungadin way of doing it is to convince the others so that they accept it.

I dont see why we have to focus on the second way. The first one is the one that everyone self respecting civilization has adopted. The second one is akin to convincing the neighbor that one knows his real father. Nobody will believe us unless we do it ourselves.

That is an interesting point. But the people who need convincing using the western paradigm are Indians, not "others". The route to convince many of our own demands that we do it the second way as well because a very large number of Indian have bought into 150 years of indoctrination that if its Indian its wrong.

"i am convinced and I don't give a damn about anyone else" was the original downfall of our own narrative. We did not protect it.

shiv saar,

very very true!

There seems to be a very deep seated belief among us Indians, that Satyamev Jayate - Truth prevails.. always! Looking at this world forged by media, education and religious brainwashing, preying on people's gullibility, identity loss, social status obsession, deference to authority, security angst, peer pressure, ideological dogmas, aesthetics consciousness, etc, it becomes possible to lay layers upon layers of lies on that Truth, all tailored to serve various political agendas.

So 'Satyamev Jayate' is a clarion call to activism to cut through those layers, and not some declaration of victory, upon whose hearing, one can lay back, look for a corner, or a sofa upon which truth still shines, in one's opinion.

The thing to remember is that Truth's light should shine not just in one's own eyes, but Truth should shine over the whole world, and one is obliged to work in this endeavor. This may sound dangerously like proselytization, but the difference lies in discerning facts from normative opinion.

The fact that Indian ethnicities, language, religious cosmology, astronomy and mathematics are indigenous belong in the sphere of historical facts, that may still need study, but establishing these facts as globally acknowledged are a part of the Satyamev agenda. Whether these historical facts about India are considered by anybody worthy of appreciation and respect is left to the other people. That need not concern us. But we have to establish the Truth about the facts.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jul 2012 16:27

Published July 12, 2012
By Palash R. Ghosh
Swastika Spray-Painted On Sikh School In Canada: Ironic And Tragic Abuse Of An Ancient Symbol: International Business Times

I post this as this news is disturbing. Some of the analysis in the article is however bulls**t, as Palash tries to create connections between Hindus and the Nazi Movement.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby vishvak » 14 Jul 2012 17:12

==deleting message which is perhaps OT==
Last edited by vishvak on 14 Jul 2012 17:45, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jul 2012 17:21

Image

Publication Date: October 1, 2000
Author: S. Balachandra Rao
Hon. Director at Gandhi Centre of Science and Human Values,
Retired Principal and Professor of Mathematics, now Representative on the Governing Council of The National Degree College, Basavanagudi, Bangalore


Ancient Indian Astronomy - Planetary Positions & Eclipses


Image

Publication Date: June 20, 2000
Author: S. Balachandra Rao
Indian Astronomy: An Introduction

Publication Date: 1994
Author: S. Balachandra Rao
Indian Mathematics And Astronomy - Some Landmarks

Review by B. Sury
Review by Michio Yano

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jul 2012 18:14

Some rare honesty from UK. Malyalees at work!

Published Apr 01, 2004
By Dennis F. Almeida and George G. Joseph
Institute of Race Relations
Eurocentrism in the History of Mathematics: the Case of the Kerala School

Sedillot asserted that not only was Indian science indebted to Europe, but also that Indian numbers were an ‘abbreviated form’ of Roman numbers, that Sanskrit was ‘muddled’ Greek and that India had no chronology. Although Sedillot’s assertions were based on imperfect knowledge and understanding of the nature and scope of Indian mathematics, this did not deter him from concluding:

On one side, there is a perfect language, the language of Homer, approved by many centuries, by all branches of human cultural knowledge, by arts brought to high levels of perfection. On the other side, there is [in India] Tamil with innumerable dialects and that Brahmanic filth which survived to our day in the environment of the most crude superstitions.
Conclusions: We have seen that, with some rare exceptions, the dominant view of the mathematics of India represented a drastic departure from that of both early English commentators (such as Reuben Burrow) as well as even earlier Arab commentators (such as Al-Andalusi). This departure was contemporaneous with the establishment of the European colonies in the East and it is assumed that such views were consistent with the imperialist policies of the governments of the day. Additionally, there were attempts in the nineteenth century to marginalise the achievements of Indian mathematics by casting doubts on the chronology used in India (for example, by Sedillot), thereby questioning the temporal priority of the discoveries of Indian mathematicians (for example, by Bentley). This encapsulates the Eurocentric view of Indian mathematics in nineteenth-century Europe. In the twentieth century, this Eurocentric view persisted, initially by ignoring early reports by Whish (1835) and Warren (1825) of the Kerala School of Madhava and presenting a partial history of calculus (for example, Smith (1923) and Edwards (1979)). Several subsequent works acknowledge the priority of the calculus developments of the Kerala School, but sideline them by comparing their achievements to European works founded on a different epistemology some 200 years later (for example, Baron (1983), Katz (1995) and Calinger (1999)). This, taken together with the absence of a viable discussion in the academic community about the need for a research project to investigate the compelling hypothesis of the transmission of Kerala mathematics to Europe, does suggest that the Eurocentric view still pervades the history of mathematics.


Program on BBC Radio 4 on December 14, 2006
Guests: Dennis F. Almeida and George G. Joseph
Melvyn Bragg and guests discuss the contribution Indian mathematicians have made to our understanding of the subject. Mathematics from the Indian subcontinent has provided foundations for much of our modern thinking on the subject. They were thought to be the first to use zero as a number. Our modern numerals have their roots there too. And mathematicians in the area that is now India, Pakistan and Bangladesh were grappling with concepts such as infinity centuries before Europe got to grips with it. There’s even a suggestion that Indian mathematicians discovered Pythagoras’ theorem before Pythagoras.

Some of these advances have their basis in early religious texts which describe the geometry necessary for building falcon-shaped altars of precise dimensions. Astronomical calculations used to decide the dates of religious festivals also encouraged these mathematical developments.

So how were these advances passed on to the rest of the world? And why was the contribution of mathematicians from this area ignored by Europe for centuries?

With George Gheverghese Joseph, Honorary Reader in Mathematics Education at Manchester University; Colva Roney-Dougal, Lecturer in Pure Mathematics at the University of St Andrews; Dennis Almeida, Lecturer in Mathematics Education at Exeter University and the Open University


Image

Publication Date: October 4, 2010
Author: George Gheverghese Joseph
The Crest of the Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics

A bit about Sedillot: Online Book

Image

Publication Date: 1863
Author: M L.-P.-E.-A Sédillot
Courtes observations sur quelques points de l'histoire de l'astronomie et des mathématiques chez les orientaux

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jul 2012 18:24

In the article there is no mention of Indians. It is only Greeks and Egyptians who discovered all of ancient astronomy! :roll:

Ancient Astronomy Calendars, Navigation, Predictions @Space Today

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jul 2012 18:38

Here is GoI's official Vigyan Prasar! :roll:

By Gunakar Muley
Indian Astronomy : From Jantar-Mantar to Kavalur

Ancient India made some big advances in science because it was in constant contact with other countries. After the conquest of the Indus basin by Darius around 520 B.C. India was thrown wide open to Babylonian influences. Through the Persians, India also came into contact with Greece. These contacts further increased during Alexander's campaign and again when the Greco-Bactrian kingdoms were established in North-West India. All these contacts greatly helped India in enriching her sciences, particularly astronomy.

This long period of intercourse with the west introduced many new ideas in the traditional system of Indian astronomy.


A lot of chronological nonsense in the above article!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jul 2012 18:54

Image

Publication Date: December 1, 1993
By K. D. Abhyankar, Burra Gautam Sidharth
Treasures of Ancient Indian Astronomy

The Book Arises Out Of A Seminar Held In 1987 At Birla Planetarium Hyderabad On Ancient Indian Astronomy. Divided In 5 Sections-Vedic Astronomy, Astronomy Of Vedanga Jyotisa, Siddhantic And Calendaric Astronomy, Puranic Astronomy, Miscellaneous Aspects Of Indian Astronomy. 14 Papers In All

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jul 2012 20:22

Online Books

Some commentary on the Aryan Invasion Theory is also included.

Image


Publication Date: May 16, 2003
Author: François Gautier
Rewriting Indian History

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jul 2012 20:31

Online Books

Publication Date: 1914-1920
Author: Sri Aurobindo
The Secret of the Veda (Volume 15)

Page 37-38
It was my stay in Southern India which first seriously turned my thoughts to the Veda. Two observations that were forced on my mind, gave a serious shock to my second-hand belief in the racial division between Northern Aryans and Southern Dravidians. The distinction had always rested for me on a supposed difference between the physical types of Aryan and Dravidian and a more definite incompatibility between the northern Sanskritic and the southern non-Sanskritic tongues. I knew indeed of the later theories which suppose that a single homogeneous race, Dravidian or Indo-Afghan, inhabits the Indian peninsula; but hitherto I had not attached much importance to these speculations. I could not, however, be long in Southern Indiawithout being impressed by the general recurrence of northern or “Aryan” types in the Tamil race. Wherever I turned, I seemed to recognise with a startling distinctness, not only among the Brahmins but in all castes and classes, the old familiar faces, features, figures of my friends of Maharashtra, Gujerat, Hindustan, even, though this similarity was less widely spread, of my own province Bengal. The impression I received was as if an army of all the tribes of the North had descended on the South and submerged any previous populations that may have occupied it. A general impression of a Southern type survived, but it was impossible to fix it rigidly while studying the physiognomy of individuals. And in the end I could not but perceive that whatever admixtures might have taken place, whatever regional differences might have been evolved, there remains, behind all variations, a unity of physical as well as of cultural type1 throughout India. For the rest, this is a conclusion to which ethnological speculation2 itself has an increasing tendency.

But what then of the sharp distinction between Aryan and Dravidian races created by the philologists? It disappears. If at all an Aryan invasion is admitted, we have either to suppose that it flooded India and determined the physical type of the people, with whatever modifications, or that it was the incursion of small bands of a less civilised race who melted away into the original population.We have then to suppose that entering a vast peninsula occupied by a civilised people, builders of great cities, extensive traders, not without mental and spiritual culture, they were yet able to impose on them their own language, religion, ideas and manners. Such a miracle would be just possible if the invaders possessed a very highly organised language, a greater force of creative mind and a more dynamic religious form and spirit.

And there was always the difference of language to support the theory of a meeting of races. But here also my preconceived ideas were disturbed and confounded. For on examining the vocables of the Tamil language, in appearance so foreign to the Sanskritic form and character, I yet found myself continually guided by words or by families of words supposed to be pure Tamil in establishing new relations between Sanskrit and its distant sister, Latin, and occasionally, between the Greek and the Sanskrit. Sometimes the Tamil vocable not only suggested the connection, but proved the missing link in a family of connected words. And it was through this Dravidian language that I came first to perceive what seems to me now the true law, origins and, as it were, the embryology of the Aryan tongues. I was unable to pursue my examination far enough to establish any definite conclusion, but it certainly seems to me that the original connection between the Dravidian and Aryan tongues was far closer and more extensive than is usually supposed and the possibility suggests itself that they may even have been two divergent families derived from one lost primitive tongue. If so, the sole remaining evidence of an Aryan invasion of Dravidian India would be the indications to be found in the Vedic hymns.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jul 2012 20:39

The site belongs to HARP (Harappa Archaeological Research Project), a collaboration between Pakistanis and Americans, so be careful about the content.

Hariyupia and the Aryan Invasion of India

Rigveda VI 27:5
Image
Last edited by RajeshA on 14 Jul 2012 20:54, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 14 Jul 2012 20:46

RajeshA, One of the names of Shiva is Ekasringa or one horned. Was that Harappa illustrating the one horned animal and the figure in yogic posture?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jul 2012 20:49

ramana garu,

can't say!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jul 2012 20:51

A Summary Paper

By Dr. Madan Lal Goel
University of West Florida
The Myth of Aryan Invasions of India

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jul 2012 21:12

Carl wrote:RajeshA ji, very succinct post.
RajeshA wrote:However during the limited Indo-German flirt in the backdrop of India's Independence struggle and World War II, there arose one woman, a European, who took upon herself to condescendingly lecture Indians on how we should conduct our business, and that too with the Euro-Aryan Aryan origins and sympathies. Her name was Savitri Devi Mukherjee (born as Maximiani Portas).

Its interesting, though, that she was married to a Bengali. I wonder whether her condescenscion for Indians is based on race, or based on the morass that Indians have gotten ourselves into.

I think, I can now answer this question.

The book below does try to tarnish the image of the Hindus, so one has to be careful.

Image

Publication Date: July 1, 2003
Author: Nicholas Goodrick-Clark
Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism, and the Politics of Identity

Page 95
Image

If this is true, "Savitri Devi" married Asit Krishna Mukherji for reasons of convenience and not out of love!

There can be no love between those Europeans, who believe in Aryan Racial Supremacy, and Indics. First India needs to reclaim our "Aryan" heritage on our terms as indigenists, and then if Europeans support it, can there be a meeting ground.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 14 Jul 2012 21:54

RajeshA wrote:The site belongs to HARP (Harappa Archaeological Research Project), a collaboration between Pakistanis and Americans, so be careful about the content.

Hariyupia and the Aryan Invasion of India

Rigveda VI 27:5
Image


Also see:
http://www.vedpradip.com/articlecontent ... &subcatid=

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 14 Jul 2012 22:12

http://controversialhistory.blogspot.co ... ryans.html says
HariyUpIyA/YavyAvatI: HariyUpIyA is another name of the DRSadvatI: the river is known as RaupyA in the MahAbhArata, and the name is clearly a derivative of HariyUpIyA.
The YavyAvatI is named in the same hymn and context as the HariyUpIyA, and almost all the scholars agree that both the names refers to the same river.


e.g. Raupya river in the Mahabharata
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03129.htm

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 14 Jul 2012 22:16

Witzel I think:
http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com/ej ... s0702b.txt

Of course, hariyUpIyA cannot be, as it is often alleged, the origin of the name of Harappa: medial -p- should have long disappeared, via -v- and zero, and cannot have resulted in double p.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby svinayak » 14 Jul 2012 22:21




The Proto-Indo-Europeans were the speakers of the Proto-Indo-European language (PIE), an unattested but now reconstructed prehistoric language.
INDO-EUROPEAN ORIGIN

Knowledge of them comes chiefly from the linguistic reconstruction, along with material evidence from archaeology and archaeogenetics. Linguistic reconstruction is fraught with significant uncertainties and room for speculation, and PIE speakers cannot be assumed to have been a single, identifiable people or tribe. Rather, they were a group of loosely related populations ancestral to the later, still partially prehistoric, Bronze Age Indo-Europeans.

The Proto-Indo-Europeans in this sense likely lived during the Copper Age, or roughly the 5th to 4th millennia BC. Mainstream scholarship places them in the general region of the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. Some scholars would extend the time depth of PIE or Pre-PIE to the Neolithic or even the last glacial maximum, and suggest alternative location hypotheses.

By the mid-2nd millennium BC offshoots of the Proto-Indo-Europeans had reached Anatolia, the Aegean, Northern India, and likely Western Europe.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby svinayak » 14 Jul 2012 22:28

the genetic ancestors of indoeuropeans


bc 2500 the first indoeuropean hordes in EU

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 15 Jul 2012 00:48


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 15 Jul 2012 00:51

Image
Possible german AIT-Nazis would soon ensure that all antiques actually are linked to their past history.

In 1982, a striking 12th century Nataraja bronze stolen from a temple in Tamil Nadu in 1976 was displayed in the British Museum. After receiving a tip, the Indian High Commission in London alerted the London police and the sculpture was confiscated. The British Museum contested the ownership of the bronze. In the eyes of Indian law, Gods residing in temples are legal entities. Hence, the Indian government fought the case in the name of the God. Entomologists were summoned to inspect and testify the termite runs on the icon. After a long battle, the case was eventually settled in India’s favour in 1991. Pathur Nataraja triumphantly returned to Tamil Nadu and was received with fanfare.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby vishvak » 15 Jul 2012 01:11

US ‘idol smuggler’ to be extradited today
Kapoor, who was arrested in Germany in October last year following an Interpol Red Corner notice, owns an art gallery called ‘Art of the Past’ in New York.
..
The accused forged documents to establish that the idols were new
..
Kapoor has sold art works to many museums including the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, and the Smithsonian Institution in Washington.

So the biggest museums of international first world countries bought murtis that were certified as new and then claimed as antiques once bought? Merely innocent bystanders are these most civilized international people, and not bluffmasters who buy new murtis only by forged certificates officially and display as antiques only, from art dealers, are these?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 15 Jul 2012 05:51

So many Bollywood movies about art smugglers from India based in West were made in the 70s. Finally one gets named and caught.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jul 2012 07:11

Acharya wrote:vhFR6dPomiM


The Proto-Indo-Europeans were the speakers of the Proto-Indo-European language (PIE), an unattested but now reconstructed prehistoric language.
INDO-EUROPEAN ORIGIN

Knowledge of them comes chiefly from the linguistic reconstruction, along with material evidence from archaeology and archaeogenetics. Linguistic reconstruction is fraught with significant uncertainties and room for speculation, and PIE speakers cannot be assumed to have been a single, identifiable people or tribe. Rather, they were a group of loosely related populations ancestral to the later, still partially prehistoric, Bronze Age Indo-Europeans.

The Proto-Indo-Europeans in this sense likely lived during the Copper Age, or roughly the 5th to 4th millennia BC. Mainstream scholarship places them in the general region of the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. Some scholars would extend the time depth of PIE or Pre-PIE to the Neolithic or even the last glacial maximum, and suggest alternative location hypotheses.

By the mid-2nd millennium BC offshoots of the Proto-Indo-Europeans had reached Anatolia, the Aegean, Northern India, and likely Western Europe.

Acharyaji some of us are taking great pains to dig up facts. Why on earth are you posting this sort of video here? And that too after so many pages of discussion of the same thing showing hat the material in the video is biased if not complete rubbish? Please try and explain why you posted it because it frankly irritates me to spend several days of free time researching only to come on here and find videos like this posted as if you were an overenthusiastic teenager eager to show his commitment.

There is nothing in that video that is worth discussing. It is all the same old biased bullshit set to jarring free to use rock music. The text you have chosen to post says it all. In fact you are helping to push the concept of emigaring Aryans who populated and dominated India and Europe/ You of all people Acharyaji? What's up?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jul 2012 12:08

Here is a great page, archived away from its original hindunet server (that is now a dead link). It has a detailed list of arguments with references to support the OIT and date the Rig Veda earlier than the AIT Nazis would like

After reading this page (and archiving it) I wonder if it is necessary for me at all to repeat what is said on that page in a separate article. But maybe I will try and summarize in a shorter article..

Proto IndoAryans Mitanni Hurrians

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jul 2012 16:54

On Historical linguistics in general - a subject that is unfortunately not available to anyone in any educational institution in India - a "loser situation"

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~jasa ... istics.pdf
No less important than what linguistic evidence can do is what it cannot do. It cannot
provide us with fixed dates or absolute chronologies.
Language change does not unfold
at a constant rate; this is why the quantitative technique known as glottochronology,
which purports to compute the chronological distance between two related languages
from the percentage of shared vocabulary they retain from their period of unity, is fatally
flawed. And although linguistic evidence can lead us to set up temporally remote
protolanguages, the translation of linguistic relationship into real-time history is a
hazardous enterprise. The nineteenth and early twentieth-century scholars who created
the myth of the “Aryans” committed every possible methodological error in leaping from
Proto-Indo-European to the Proto-Indo-Europeans — the error of confusing language
with “race”; of uncritically ascribing language spread to violent conquest; of attributing
conquest to racial superiority; and of selectively interpreting the material evidence to
locate the IE homeland where their prejudices led them to expect it.
Current-day
reimaginings of the past are usually more subtle. But the use of linguistic data to support
prehistoric scenarios of conquest or ownership, often with an ethnic or national bias,
remains surprisingly common. Linguistically literate readers should be prepared to
correct for this practice when they encounter it

svinayak
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby svinayak » 15 Jul 2012 23:14

shiv wrote:
Acharyaji some of us are taking great pains to dig up facts. Why on earth are you posting this sort of video here? And that too after so many pages of discussion of the same thing showing hat the material in the video is biased if not complete rubbish?

We have posted all version of AIT. This video is show how we can create our own version which is the Indian version and put it in the youtube. We need many hundreds of video to be put on youtube so that such version are countered in a logical and sceintific manner.

We need literally hundred of video since all the current theories have created a racist image of 'aryans'
and false history of the language. To protect sanskrit and RgV we need to get the story of Indian antiquity and Indian history out into the global world.
Last edited by svinayak on 15 Jul 2012 23:45, edited 1 time in total.

SaiK
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 15 Jul 2012 23:25

Thanks for that explanation.. I was pondering on the same question, and revisited the video to check if I had missed anything... well.

---

another research area is the last names and family names.. normally, the word "caste" is wrongly coined to the last names.. btw, many of south Indians don't have a family name at all.

we need to remove the word "caste" from people's name and such references. It is a title.. especially given or rewarded. Any good articles on last names, and what they mean? if they really mean caste as defined by western religion-caste?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 16 Jul 2012 00:13

Acharya garu,

the video and the description as they stand without any comments or explanation from you, give ONLY the impression that that view is a legitimate view and the poster, who put it there also supports it.

Now we here know that neither is the case. But there many visitors to the site, who may not have the same background knowledge about either the Aryan Invasion Theory or about your motives.

As such a short explanation distancing yourself from the contents or providing an explanation for posting it, as you have just done, would have been very helpful. If you can, it would be appreciated if you can edit the post and include some clarification. Otherwise for the BRF community and the visitors it would remain a legitimate viewpoint as held by you, and a wrong perception would ensue.

Thanks

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby svinayak » 16 Jul 2012 00:14

I cannot edit the post anymore

SaiK
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 16 Jul 2012 00:49

posting in full!!
http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-an ... 639602.ece

Kongunadu was once a busy trade route for the Greeks and the Romans.

“Kongunadu’s history is about 15,000 years old. For thousands of years, however, people who documented the history of Tamil Nadu failed to make a mention of our history in texts due to lack of resources. It was only after the 1940s that books on Kongunadu were written.” Dr. R. Poongundran opened his talk on ‘Trade and Trade Routes in Kongu History’ organised by The Vanavarayar Foundation as part of its monthly lecture series on history and culture of this region.

Poongundran, former assistant director of State Archaeology Department, now researches inscriptions for Mozhi Trust, a centre for resource development in language and culture.

Archeological treasure trove

The history of Kongunadu dates back to fifth century B.C. said Poongundran. Kongunadu fell on the trade route of Greeks and Romans who would travel through this region to Madurai, Uraiyur and other places in the south.

“About 80 per cent of the Roman coins excavated in India were found in Kongunadu, especially in areas such as Vellalore, Kanayampuththur, Karur, Sulur, Anaimalai and Pollachi,” said Poongundran. Semi-precious stones such as sapphire, quartz, carnelian, agate and lapis-lazuli were also found in places such as Kodumanal (Erode district) and Thandigudi. “Kodumanal was an important industrial site. It facilitated trade relations between India and the West. ”

He added that excavated lapis-lazuli indicated the trade relations between Kodumanal and Afghanistan, where the precious stone was mined. About 150 lapis beads were found during an excavation in Kodumanal. During the Indus Valley civilization, many colonies were established around these lapis sites,” he explained.

Karur too flourished as an important trade centre. Coins and jewellery used to be made here. The Moovendar (Cheras, Cholas and Pandyas) vied for this region. He showed pictures of the archaeological findings — rare signet rings, amphorae and stamps from Rome, terracotta figures, and artefacts and coins from the Chera period.

“Excavated amphorae handles revealed that olive oil was brought to Karur from Rome,” mentioned Poongundran. And from the terracotta dolls excavated in Boluvampatti, one learnt of how the Romans wore their hair. But it was the picture of a Greek manuscript found at a museum in Alexandria that drew applause from the audience. “This document shows that a transaction was made between a Greek and a businessman from Kerala,” explained Poongundran. “Kerala and Kongunadu were under the Chera rule then. This document reveals that eight kilos of pepper were imported from the Chera land. ”

Poongundran concluded with interesting information about the Rajakesari Highway. “This highway, named after a Chola King, could be deemed the oldest in India,” he said. Parts of it still exist behind CBM College, Kovaipudur. “This was one of the most important trade routes in the country. There used to be a ‘shadow army’ to protect the traders from thieves on this highway. But look at its condition now. We have not bothered preserving this piece of heritage. History is slowly being destroyed in front of our own eyes.”

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 16 Jul 2012 01:27

On the side note, hijack of Sawstika to be seen as a sign of fasicm was done around WWII, but it's echoes still ring out loud to say therr is nothing Indian about it now, in Rajiv Malhotra words, digestion is complete:

French far right to sue Madonna over swastika images at Paris concert


The face of the National Front leader appears for a few seconds, with the Fascist symbol briefly imposed on it, and is followed by the features of a man resembling Adolf Hitler.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48188391/ns ... ws-europe/

SaiK
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 16 Jul 2012 02:17

del. accepted/apologize
Last edited by SaiK on 16 Jul 2012 03:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_20317 » 16 Jul 2012 10:25

shiv wrote:On Historical linguistics in general - a subject that is unfortunately not available to anyone in any educational institution in India - a "loser situation"

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~jasa ... istics.pdf
No less important than what linguistic evidence can do is what it cannot do. It cannot
provide us with fixed dates or absolute chronologies.
Language change does not unfold
at a constant rate; this is why the quantitative technique known as glottochronology,
which purports to compute the chronological distance between two related languages
from the percentage of shared vocabulary they retain from their period of unity, is fatally
flawed. And although linguistic evidence can lead us to set up temporally remote
protolanguages
, the translation of linguistic relationship into real-time history is a
hazardous enterprise. The nineteenth and early twentieth-century scholars who created
the myth of the “Aryans” committed every possible methodological error in leaping from
Proto-Indo-European to the Proto-Indo-Europeans — the error of confusing language
with “race”; of uncritically ascribing language spread to violent conquest; of attributing
conquest to racial superiority; and of selectively interpreting the material evidence to
locate the IE homeland where their prejudices led them to expect it.
Current-day
reimaginings of the past are usually more subtle. But the use of linguistic data to support
prehistoric scenarios of conquest or ownership, often with an ethnic or national bias,
remains surprisingly common. Linguistically literate readers should be prepared to
correct for this practice when they encounter it



Shiv ji, you have started some work on Linguistics.

Have you found anything (rationale not claims) to suggest that while Glottochronology is not ok, the ‘Setting up of temporally remote protolanguages’ is ok. To me this sounds as plain double-talk. But then I would be willing to change my mind if somebody of your repute tells me to reconsider my view.

And besides based on your studies, uptill now, how far in your assessment would Linguists be willing to take their work w.r.t. ‘Setting up of temporally remote protolanguages’. Would they like to set up a Proto-proto language say right upto the language of Pikaia gracilens. IOW if they claim they have the rationale do they claim the rationale is applicable to every form of utterance by every form of life that makes a sound. And if they do not then do they provide any reason as to why not

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Anand K » 16 Jul 2012 12:12

From early times runes were popular in Celtic lands and appears all over their culture. The Swastik was just one of their cultural motifs like the Triskelion, the Sun rune, Faith rune etc. These were "appropriated" and symbolized differently by the German Nationalists and Ultra Nationalists of early 20th century... chief of them being Guido List.
Anyway, during the First World War, Fritz runners and other infantry used to carry a bunch of such runic talismans for luck. In those days of trench warfare a machine gun nest could cut down whole platoons before they even cleared the top rung of the trench ladder. The Swastik was the most popular apparently as it represented luck, life and regeneration. Hitler himself was a runner....

Anyway, symbols similar to the Swastika appear even in Neolithic American/European sites... forget near east sites like Samara. Here you have serpents or human hands or bird's heads or whole birds forming the arms. Campbell and Jung and others have different theories on how this symbol appears in almost every culture, from the Ashanti to the Maori.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Arjun » 16 Jul 2012 12:47

One can argue whether the Swastika symbol constitutes yet another European 'borrowing' - but there is no doubting that the nomenclature was appropriated from India, and misused to an extent where its now associated with fascism in Europe.


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