Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 31 Jul 2012 15:01

Bheeshma wrote:Last I heard India rejected the F-35.

Reality is that neither IAF or IN has tested the F-35, so question of acceptance or rejection does not arise. The MMRCA process involved 6 types, which did NOT include F-35. In some future process, F-35 may come into consideration, but no such process exists today.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Aug 2012 03:48

tejas wrote:Kartik it is with a profound sense of frustration and hyperbole that I posted what I said. One of the partners in my group has a brother who owns his own company that machines parts for various companies mostly defense. I have been to his plant and know what such work entails. If you are proud that after 60+ years as the GOI monopoly HAL has graduated from building doors on Boeing civil aircraft to bomb bay doors on 4th generation fighters more power to you . As for name calling does someone become ignorant if they don't share your beliefs? I suspect I am quite a bit older than you and with an undergraduate degree in engineering and a post graduate in medicine have forgotten more than you will ever know. I would be just as comfortable discussing differential equations as imaging of mucinous cystic tumors of the pancreas on contrast enhanced multidetector CT with you.

Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak built the first Apple computer in a garage. That's the type of innovation that is strangulated in the Socialist Republic of India. The country imports rifles, bullets, toy planes from Switzerland and fuses from South Africa. How is 2012 any change from 1965? An outside arms embargo during a war and the country would be finished in 3 weeks. If supposedly educated people like you are happy with building doors and continue to support the oceans of mediocrity that the DPSUs are, India is finished. India has HMT South Korea, poorer then India in 1947, has Samsung. Oh where is the picture of the wire harness Asia's premier Aerospace complex is building?

I don’t care whether you posted it with a sense of frustration or any other emotion. The point you made was ridiculous in itself. Machining parts is very different from putting together composite parts or panels. The very fact that you seem to think that just because someone has a company that machines parts for defence means that putting together composite panels in a garage is possible with adequate quality control shows your true depth of understanding of the subject.

I didn’t say that I’m proud that HAL manufactures nose bay doors. But, having seen manufacturing of such panels up front, and having designed and analysed composite panels, having written repair manual for such panels and having participated in several rounds of fault reduction and quality control in such manufacturing, I know just what can go wrong in such parts.

I know that you cannot set up an autoclave for such a large panel in your or your friend’s garage. You'd need to install air filters into your garage to keep every dust particle over a certain size from getting into the resin. Perhaps even tape laying machines or your 2 buddies would need to be skilled workers who know how to lay tape or composite fabric. I know that you cannot install the water jet testing for testing out any minute air pockets in the panel that may lead to all sorts of issues like local debonding at a later date, which may lead to failure of such panels.

That they got such a contract is testament to one fact- that Boeing does have some faith in their quality control. Whether the contract was for nuts and bolts, or complex assemblies is immaterial. If you pass on the requisite knowledge on how to manufacture those items, HAL most likely will be able to come up with them. How does it matter whether the offset work was for a nose bay door or for other parts? Surely you don’t think that HAL cannot machine ribs, longerons, stringers, whatnot..If you do think that, then how has the Su-30MKI, Hawk, Jaguars and Tejas’ been rolling out of HAL plants?

They got a contract, which they efficiently discharged. And you complain about how small that part is. There are Japanese suppliers who put together entire wings for Boeing airplanes, but they all started small- and if such a contract was given to HAL, they’d take some spooling up time, for training, technology and tools/jigs but they will almost surely be able to manufacture wing sets too. They may not be the paragon of efficiency, but to compare them to some two-bit work shop is delusional. The fault lies in the PSU mentality and not in the technical competence of those at HAL. I’ve worked with a few HAL guys and they are competent. The company is not efficient and that mentality gets to those at the lower rungs, but don’t judge them all to be useless.

That you should bring your age and your educational qualifications (like that is somehow supposed to impress me) and then state that I’m probably younger than you and hence know less than you’ve forgotten is immaterial to the subject on hand. The valid question is- DO YOU HAVE ANY AEROSPACE EXPERIENCE?

If not, don’t bother to judge others’ capabilities, since you haven’t the requisite knowledge or experience to judge what is complex and what is easy. I've been working several years in aerospace, mostly in composites. I have a bachelor’s and Master’s degree in Mechanical engineering and while I don’t claim to know much about Medicine (and hence would keep mum on what Indian companies can or cannot do in that field), I do know something about Aerospace. You clearly don’t.

The rest of your post is pretty much noise anyway.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 01 Aug 2012 05:49

^^^^ Did u bother to read my post??? I was referring to the wire harness that two men could put together.Yet you continue you spout off on the bomb bay door. If you could get off your high horse and read for one moment you would realize that. I do not wish to continue this meaningless discussion further.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2012 06:13

tejas wrote:^^^^ Did u bother to read my post??? I was referring to the wire harness that two men could put together.Yet you continue you spout off on the bomb bay door. If you could get off your high horse and read for one moment you would realize that. I do not wish to continue this meaningless discussion further.

Since you started the meaningless discussion I wonder why you suddenly want to downhill ski the minute a person with a history of positive contribution to this forum puts your silly comment in its place? It is you who are sitting on a high horse made of hot air because you are riding on sarcasm and contempt that you pepper on the forum and imagine that someone like Kartik who disagrees is on a high horse.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Aug 2012 06:27

^^^^ Did u bother to read my post??? I was referring to the wire harness that two men could put together.Yet you continue you spout off on the bomb bay door. If you could get off your high horse and read for one moment you would realize that. I do not wish to continue this meaningless discussion further.

Sir,

We rebuilt an entire 1991 Nissan 300ZX. Entire car - ripped it apart and put it back together.

THE hardest part? The harness. Even with a wire diagram we had to farm out the work. The ONLY other work we farmed out was re-boring the engine and the rotors. Everything else we did it in my garage.

Harnesses, if you do not know what you are doing, make more problems.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Aug 2012 06:40

NRao wrote:
^^^^ Did u bother to read my post??? I was referring to the wire harness that two men could put together.Yet you continue you spout off on the bomb bay door. If you could get off your high horse and read for one moment you would realize that. I do not wish to continue this meaningless discussion further.
Sir,

We rebuilt an entire 1991 Nissan 300ZX. Entire car - ripped it apart and put it back together.

THE hardest part? The harness. Even with a wire diagram we had to farm out the work. The ONLY other work we farmed out was re-boring the engine and the rotors. Everything else we did it in my garage.

Harnesses, if you do not know what you are doing, make more problems.

This particular poster won't know just how complicated a wiring harness can be for an airplane- with hundreds of kms of wiring, it is a specialised job that requires training and cannot be messed up without causing a huge amount of rework. He lacks understanding of the complications involved in engineering and from the 1,00,000 feet down view that he routinely takes, everything is so easy that it can be put together in a garage by 2 men.

Notice how he side-stepped his BS on the nose bay door (which he now calls the BOMB bay door, after all they're the same on the F/A-18 aren't they?

wait a minute, there is NO BOMB BAY door on an F/A-18!) being a part that can be assembled by 2 men in a garage.

I doubt this man knows that it was the wiring harness snafus that delayed the A-380 program by a couple of years while they re-designed them.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Aug 2012 06:43

tejas wrote:^^^^ Did u bother to read my post??? I was referring to the wire harness that two men could put together.Yet you continue you spout off on the bomb bay door. If you could get off your high horse and read for one moment you would realize that. I do not wish to continue this meaningless discussion further.

I did. There isn't much to read about though.

A person like you who cannot tell the difference between a nose bay door and a bomb bay door is not someone who can judge whether or not manufacturing that part is a specialised job or a job that can be offset to any mom and pop manufacturing joint.

I don't have personal issues with you, but refrain from making these remarks that pinpoint you as being ignorant about an airplane and its manufacturing/design issues and complexities.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 01 Aug 2012 07:21

Obviously the F-18 delivers ordnance via pylons its not a B-52. The original graphic describes it as a gun bay door which I carelessly called a bomb bay door. I don't feel the need to constantly call people ignorant if they have less speciializedv knowledge than me about a given field. After driving Arun_S off this forum, Shiv, I hardly need a lecture from you about forum contributors. His contributions on missile tech. were unmatched in the history of this forum. No mas.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2012 07:57

tejas wrote: Shiv, I hardly need a lecture from you about forum contributors. .

Well that is rich. YOU hardly need a lecture from me? If you really gave a flying fig about what others might want to read or hear from you, you would not be dropping scathing sarcastic comments all over the forum. Clearly your concern for what others may think seems to be way smaller than your own tearfully oversensitive concern about what you personally do or do not want to hear.

I just apply the standards you set and my lectures come whether you want them or not, like your own comments.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Aug 2012 08:03

There is something to be said about staying humble and refraining from personal attacks when there are disagreements. Everyone has something to contribute whether they are young or old. It's a passion for defense-related issues that have brought all of here to this forum. Keep discussions to the topics at hand.

Boudhayan · Post by **Boudhayan** » 01 Aug 2012 08:41

Gentlemen, lets take a deep breath and take it a notch down... would appreciate if we can come back to meaningful discussion on this thread rather than discussing "my horse is stronger than yours" !

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 01 Aug 2012 09:40

Despite all that I have seen and learned, I am humbled just about every day at my job. I work with people who are amazingly intelligent and subspecialized in their own fields in medicine. Never have I heard them call someone who was in a different field and knew less about their field ignorant.
I have visited this forum and this website in one form or another since its inception. It has been full of intelligent people who have amazed me with their knowledge.
I was shocked to see so many cared and were informed about India's defense as was I.

But in all these years I have not seen so many personal attacks as I have seen lately. I am many things Kartik, ignorant is not one of them. Shiv you have become increasingly cussed over the years. Definitely not a positive change, Congratulations, you have driven another Indian patriot from this forum Good bye.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 01 Aug 2012 10:36

The connectors of wiring harnesses in auto sector in our country are still imported (at least in many cases). Wiring harness can be tough to make if you making it full 100% and easy if you are only assembling it. And yes to the gentleman who wants to question my knowledge - GO ASK THE MODERATORS.

Kartik and Shiv - I dont know why you people want to jump on anyone who presents a view different from yours. Kartik - the kind of outsourcing that the likes of Boeing, Augsta westland, Sikorsky, etc are doing to Indian companies is truely pathetic. Now there are counter arguments that Indian companies hardly know anything about aerospace. So there are always two faces to everything. Request you all to be a bit more considerate when replying to others on the forum.

Tejas - you have been a good contributor. I dont think you will allow some of these more vocal (about everything) gentlemen to influence your being on this forum. Just today I read on FB a quote by Churchill to the effect that you cant achieve anything if you were to reply to every canine on the way

enjoy. Peace to everyone.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2012 11:18

doesnt tyco electronics and molex both have offices and plants in whitefield EPIP area. do they provide stuff to us locally?

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 01 Aug 2012 11:23

shiv wrote:
tejas wrote: Shiv, I hardly need a lecture from you about forum contributors. .
Well that is rich. YOU hardly need a lecture from me? If you really gave a flying fig about what others might want to read or hear from you, you would not be dropping scathing sarcastic comments all over the forum. Clearly your concern for what others may think seems to be way smaller than your own tearfully oversensitive concern about what you personally do or do not want to hear.

I just apply the standards you set and my lectures come whether you want them or not, like your own comments.

Why don't you take a good look in the mirror and see for yourself?

I have come across many of your posts and guess what? I just usually skip over them because most of your posts have nothing to contribute and are nothing but noise. Usually I have refrained myself from responding to some of your posts because they are usually a waste of my time but since I got some spare time to kill, so why not?

I have noticed a certain trend with your posts. Whenever you post a certain hypothesis or theory, you usually start from from a point but then you head off into bullshit territory.

As for your other quote

Since you started the meaningless discussion I wonder why you suddenly want to downhill ski the minute a person with a history of positive contribution to this forum puts your silly comment in its place? It is you who are sitting on a high horse made of hot air because you are riding on sarcasm and contempt that you pepper on the forum and imagine that someone like Kartik who disagrees is on a high horse.

I would make a humble suggestion to you... Repeat that while you are facing a mirror and repeat it 1000 times. Perhaps after the 1000 time, you will get my point but then judging from your posts and your sheer posting numbers, it may not be enough. You might actually have to repeat it yourself 20,000 times.

Do you get my point?

wig · Post by **wig** » 01 Aug 2012 11:39

almost nine months later the wreckage and body parts of the late MiG- 29 pilot seem to have been located in Himachal Prades

Indian Air Force search team has hit upon what could be vital clues in a nine-month-old mid-air supersonic MiG-29 crash mystery. It has found body parts including a foot thumb, back bone believed to be those of the missing pilot Sqn Ldr DS Tomar and burnt wreckage of the MIG-29 that had hit the 16,000-foot-high glacier in the Chokhang mountain range and crashed after it lost radio contact with the Adampur air base in Jalandhar at 8.30 pm on October 18, 2011.

It took the IAF nine months and 13 days to find the MiG-29 wreckage sources revealed. The IAF team, led by IAF group captain and comprising rock climbers and mountaineers and Ladakh Scouts today returned from the glacier with “a human foot thumb and a back bone and other burnt pieces” retrieved from the debris from the melted glacier, which are believed to be that of the missing pilot and the crashed plane.

The team is searching for the black box that would help ascertain the time and cause of the crash, sources said.

The IAF has brought the wreckage to the base camp at Thirot where the team is camping. The pieces and human limbs and bones will be sent for DNA testing and forensic examination in its forensic lab in New Delhi before making a final statement to unravel the mystery shrouding the MiG-29 crash, sources said.

The team has communicated the details of its recovery from the spot to the IAF western command, Delhi and refused to share this new information. “It will be after the DNA testing and forensic examination that the IAF will make a final statement, sources told The Tribune.

The IAF team has demanded a helicopter from the western air-command tomorrow to fly back the recovered wreckage.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120801/main4.htm

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 01 Aug 2012 12:06

Indian PSUs' days are numbered, specially HAL's and thank God for that. The recent opening of transport and ship manufacture to private firms is a pointer to that and the excuse that HAL/MDL had too much on its plate is lame. I know people in the DPSUs and my anger is directed not at them but the culture of non-performance and sycophancy that pervades these black holes and is playing havoc with them. Nothing anyone says here is magically going to change HAL and make it deliver something the AF wants. Only a culture that values answerability and results will. That won't be coming from HAL anytime soon. We are all jingos here and nobody has a monopoly on patriotism, no matter how offensive, shrill or loud. In fact, anyone who defends a long history of mediocrity or worse with excuses and ad hominem attacks is not a patriot in my book but a prime example of why we still import even ordinary rifles from countries like Bulgaria. We have a severe problemn and it looks like GoI may have finally woken to it. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again but expecting different results. Thankfully it looks like while the people in Delhi may be stupid, they are not insane.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 01 Aug 2012 13:14

Marten Saar, talk about yourself when labeling others with the arm-chair band. And while some self appointed know-alls may be of 'caliber', does not make the others idiots.
I too have direct hands on experience of what Boeing is upto. Dont start the size-measurement match.

vic · Post by **vic** » 01 Aug 2012 13:25

I think the middle ground would be to say that Gun bay door may be high tech but relative to our expectations from HAL which is the biggest rather only company in aircraft manufacturing of FOURTH largest economy in the world, it is tad disappointing.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2012 17:04

Hitesh wrote:
Do you get my point?

Sorry. I was unaware of your existence on the forum. Thanks for drawing attention to yourself. You will be added to my ignore list. You could return the compliment to me and you will miss no more than I have missed by not noticing your existence on this forum.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2012 17:14

tejas wrote:Despite all that I have seen and learned, I am humbled just about every day at my job. I work with people who are amazingly intelligent and subspecialized in their own fields in medicine. Never have I heard them call someone who was in a different field and knew less about their field ignorant.

This has got to be one of the most hypocritical and insincere statements I have read in recent days, considering that you say you work with colleagues in medicine and here is what you have to say about HAL. Your humility and respect for those who work outside your field comes shining through

tejas wrote:The garbage HAL is building for the F-18 is doors and "wire harnesses" the latter could probably be built by two guys in their garage.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2012 17:34

I suspect that in the context of outsourcing that HAL will have to do to build the LCA, they find it tough to get private Indian companies to build small components such as the ones Boeing outsources to HAL itself. That means that our level of industrial development is so low in India that HAL,(the biggest aerospace company) does for Boeing what small workshops do in more developed nations. HAL has to build the whole lot, from the most minor rods and pins to composite parts and engine blades.

One could ask why Boeing did not find a private Indian company to competitively bid for the same components that HAL makes. I am sure that it is because HAL may be the only company in India, PSU or private capable of doing that. I honestly feel we miss the forest for the trees when HAL is cursed, because HAL is the best we have and its incompetence/competence reflects the general decrepit state of high tech aerospace industry in India. ISRO is a different ball game. Rocket engines and rockets are single use, and the disastrous failure of one in ten or fifteen rockets is considered a good record for rockets. That is no use for aircraft that have to fly flawlessly thousands of times.

This may change in future. But it has not yet changed.

Will · Post by **Will** » 01 Aug 2012 19:39

Victor wrote:Indian PSUs' days are numbered, specially HAL's and thank God for that. The recent opening of transport and ship manufacture to private firms is a pointer to that and the excuse that HAL/MDL had too much on its plate is lame. I know people in the DPSUs and my anger is directed not at them but the culture of non-performance and sycophancy that pervades these black holes and is playing havoc with them. Nothing anyone says here is magically going to change HAL and make it deliver something the AF wants. Only a culture that values answerability and results will. That won't be coming from HAL anytime soon. We are all jingos here and nobody has a monopoly on patriotism, no matter how offensive, shrill or loud. In fact, anyone who defends a long history of mediocrity or worse with excuses and ad hominem attacks is not a patriot in my book but a prime example of why we still import even ordinary rifles from countries like Bulgaria. We have a severe problemn and it looks like GoI may have finally woken to it. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again but expecting different results. Thankfully it looks like while the people in Delhi may be stupid, they are not insane.

Well put VIC. Jingoism shouldn't paper over the inherent flaws in the system that are visible for all to see. The MOD has to get in private players and fund them and make them accountable at the same time. Accountability of PSU's ???? Laughable!!

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 01 Aug 2012 20:08

Kartik wrote:
DO YOU HAVE ANY AEROSPACE EXPERIENCE?

If not, don’t bother to judge others’ capabilities, since you haven’t the requisite knowledge or experience to judge what is complex and what is easy. I've been working several years in aerospace, mostly in composites. I have a bachelor’s and Master’s degree in Mechanical engineering and while I don’t claim to know much about Medicine (and hence would keep mum on what Indian companies can or cannot do in that field), I do know something about Aerospace. You clearly don’t.

The rest of your post is pretty much noise anyway.

Since you are an expert in aviation composites, you are probably aware that FAA-certified and mil spec-conforming composite airplanes, including supersonic ones, are made in peoples' garages every day?

It would be far more helpful and less obnoxious if you would share your inputs on why and why not without jumping on people just because they have a different view on what is best for Indian military aviation. If you want to defend a non-performing and proven dud, fine go ahead but don't arrogate to yourself the authority to dictate what is best for the country.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Aug 2012 20:46

Victor wrote:
Since you are an expert in aviation composites, you are probably aware that FAA-certified and mil spec-conforming composite airplanes, including supersonic ones, are made in peoples' garages every day?

It would be far more helpful and less obnoxious if you would share your inputs on why and why not without jumping on people just because they have a different view on what is best for Indian military aviation. If you want to defend a non-performing and proven dud, fine go ahead but don't arrogate to yourself the authority to dictate what is best for the country.

Are you sure you are not referring to just assembling planes from kits and not actually making composites themselves? If you are sure, can you please share links on people having autoclaves in their garages and making airplane parts for supersonic planes? I would definitely like to know how many people are making supersonic planes in their garages using composites. Given that apart from defence airplanes, there are not many civilian supersonic aircraft at present, I am suprised to hear that people are making supersonic planes in their garages.

Mil-spec confirming composite planes?? Do you know how much paperwork goes into making aircrafts and helicopters and other defence items in US? At Boeing, in their Renton facility where they make both P8 and civilian 737s, they have to have a separate assembly line for P8A even though its production rate is low. And they are bound by host of regulations on how to run it, and tolerances are closely monitored by USN/USAF.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2012 20:56

I spent some time desperately searching for component suppliers for Boeing. I was basically looking for company names of small private players who might make rivets, valves, clips, rings etc. I am sure Boeing does not make them all as HAL seems to do (Except in cases where those parts are imported wholesale because it is uneconomical to set up a factory just for that component)

I only found the names of major subcontractors for Boeing F/A 18 manufacture
1.Northrop Grumman- produces the F/A-18’s aft/center fuselage section and vertical tails and integrates all associated subsystems at its facility in El Segundo, Calif.

2. Domestic sourcing in the US Raytheon(radars), General Electric (engines)

3. Outside US - Gun bay doors: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and Bharat Electronics Limited(India)

4. Here is what i found about Japan
http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/09/2 ... 2620110926

"If you came to the Boeing production line, everything you saw Boeing doing in St Louis would be available or is available for Japan industry to do," Mills told Reuters in an interview.

"It's clear that we are going to be somewhere in the 75 percent area," Mills added, referring the percentage of F-18 component production that the company could outsource to Japanese makers.

5. Australia
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... rk-372215/

Australian firm Lovitt Technologies has won a A$1 million ($980,000) contract from Boeing to provide wing parts for the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet.

"This is an outstanding achievement for Lovitt Technologies and is the result of their hard work and demonstrates their high level of manufacturing capability," says minister for defence materiel Jason Clare.

The deal comes under Australia's Global Supply Chain Program, which helps smaller Australian firms to participate in the supply chains of large overseas defence contractors.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2012 21:07

This "Lovitt Technologies" of Australia is the sort of Private aerospace firm we need to see in India capable of doing Aerospace work. Currently ONLY HAL is capable of doing anything worth mentioning. Mahindra, Tatas etc may get there in 10 years. Currently we only have a few in India, and none as capable as this Lovitt of Oz . India pvt players in Aerospace are Taneja Aerospace, Maini engineering, Shanthi gears, etc

http://www.lovittech.com.au/home/home.shtml

Lovitt Technologies Australia is a specialist aerospace and defence manufacturer with the capabilities and operational procedures designed to suit the specification, quality and quantity requirements of the industry.

Historically, Lovitt Technologies Australia assisted Australian and international defence and aerospace contractors fulfil their Australian Industry Involvement (AII) obligations, via the cost-effective supply of Australian manufactured components and assemblies. Today, Lovitts negotiates and deals directly with a broad range of Australian and international prime contractors, OEMs and sub-system suppliers.

Our machine shop offers high-end precision equipment, including 5-axis milling and 7-axis turning capabilities, which have been specifically configured for the exacting requirements of aerospace and defence manufacturing. The flexibility of our production facilities enables us to address the unique volume and scheduling requirements of these programmes.

Aerospace Projects: Airbus UK, Airbus France, Boeing Commercial

Defence Projects:

Air: F-111, F/A-18, Wedgetail AEW&C , Armed Reconnaissance Helicopters, Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), PC-3 Orion, Eurofighter.
Land: RAVEN, Parakeet, Personal Locator Beacon
Sea: NULKA, Evolved SEASPARROW Missile (ESSM), Collins Class submarine, ANZAC Class frigate, Minehunter, Force Guided Missile frigate Upgrade (FFG Up).

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 01 Aug 2012 21:27

putnanja wrote:.. please share links on people having autoclaves in their garages and making airplane parts for supersonic planes?

One doesn't always need an autoclave to use composites for aircraft, an oven will do. If some part does need it, autoclave time can be rented in one of the many companies making windmill props, RVs, race car bodies etc. Bottom line, it is commonly done by DIY types.

Do you know how much paperwork goes into making aircrafts and helicopters and other defence items in US?

I do.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 01 Aug 2012 21:35

Tejas,

Your frustration with Indian PSUs is understandable (and shared) but its continuous repetition on many threads gets annoying. Once you mix it with (un)parliamentary language (like garbage) in your effort to drive the point, it causes justifiable reaction from others.

But in this particular case of "offsets" you are incorrect ( IMHO) because you probably have not read the defense procurement policy and more specifically the "offset policy". If that is the case than your criteria for judging the offset is different than what is set in the policy. There are many goals of that policy, I am quoting a few from memory -

Plough back revenue in Indian MIC and economy- This is an effort to provide steady stream of revenue for Indian defense companies to evenout their cashflow. It is easy and low risk for Boing to source low tech components for starters for existing products, if these companies excel they could graduate to more high end work.

Purchase specific technology and equipment to bridge the national technology gaps - This avenue is to get really high end testing facilities like Boeing's trans-sonic wind tunnel for ADA or high altitude engine testing facility for GTRE. French would get a deal for LCA engine with GTRE, only if they are willing to give specific technology (single crystal, TBC, alloys etc) as part of offset/ToT.

ToT - Vendors quote the cost of ToT in the bids that gets counted against offset

Capital investment in defense sector - Self explanatory

So in a nut shell, we get to chose and mandate what high tech technology, hardware, manufacturing% we want and rest is left for the vendors to negotiate. It's just starting and sure will get better with time. They can't buy $10 billion worth of doors, cabinets and harnesses, policy will force them to nurture and develop Indian companies to provide more value added parts/assemblies.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2012 21:40

lovitt tech sounds like == maini aerospace.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 01 Aug 2012 21:46

shiv wrote:This "Lovitt Technologies" of Australia is the sort of Private aerospace firm we need to see in India capable of doing Aerospace work.

No, we desperately need to see private companies replacing HAL, GTRE, DRDO etc.

Currently ONLY HAL is capable of doing anything worth mentioning.

Because GoI in its misplaced wisdom made sure about that. They are changing their minds now that end users (read IAF) is openly frustrated with them and new partners like Boeing and Dassault must have done some plain talking. Nobody wants to be forced to work with a company that has a long, shoddy and well known record of non-performance.

Mahindra, Tatas etc may get there in 10 years.

My expectation from Indian companies is much higher. They WILL get there and sooner than you think. Vivek Lall joining Reliance Aerospace should be an indication of who Boeing really wants as a partner and what he sees as prospects.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2012 21:47

Singha wrote:lovitt tech sounds like == maini aerospace.

Absolutely. That is the first Indian name that came to mind. We need 200 companies like that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2012 21:48

Victor wrote:
Mahindra, Tatas etc may get there in 10 years.
My expectation from Indian companies is much higher. They WILL get there and sooner than you think. Vivek Lall joining Reliance Aerospace should be an indication of who Boeing really wants as a partner.

10 years is soon. Sooner than that is unlikely, unless work is outsourced to existing offshore plants such as the one bought by Mahindras in Australia. And there too its the people who run the company that matter. Developing the manpower in India will be difficult unless they can buy off competent workers from HAL and give then 10 x salary. Not easy because PSUs give pension.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Aug 2012 21:55

The comments posted by Tejas on HAL and the claims that anyone could do what HAL was doing (making the F/A-18 bay doors and then two people could assemble harnesses) were risible.

But there were double standards employed. That list shows another company which Tejas mocks all the time = BEL - as being worthy of nothing. In this, it shows them making datalink, a radar fingerprinting system (clearly the DRDO ESM suite being rolled out across multiple IN/IAF programs), an IFF LRU etc. So no comments about a worthless parasitical PSU making such stuff?

There is another private company there making "Cabinets", no comments there.

But there is a lot of intemperate hyperbole directed against HAL for landing this contract.

So lets get this straight - if HAL makes anything, we have some folks saying they are worthless.

To constantly make the series of posts Tejas has done - 9 out of ten are rants against PSUs - and I have to question what value these bring to the forum and his own time. I think he was just venting but then it becomes tiresome when done repetitively.

Its nobody's case to make that HAL is the paragon of efficiency (it isn't) and that its leadership has been perfect (hardly. R Sharma ex head has been publicly flagged for having gone slow on the LCA) and that it doesn't face many of the problems facing Indian industry (unionism, bureaucracy etc).

However, credit must be given where it is due. To selectively pick on an organization for being successful - landing offset contracts where the partner OEM routinely shies away from transferring technology or giving others access to its supply chain - and then mocking whatever they do as being "equal to two guys in a garage" reduces the quality of discussion in the forum.

Wire harnesses for instance are painful components of any mil-spec program. In the MiG-21 upgrade, much effort was put into even understanding and figuring out how to "re-harness" the aircraft for its modern systems literally put into an ancient fighter.

Each time HAL or any Indian company lands such a contract, a valuable knowledge transfer occurs. These can then be applied to local programs in terms of standardized manufacturing and assembly procedures.

Tejas mocked HAL for being "primitive" - based on what a world renowned aerospace authority like the US Ambassador said - but then its contradictory for him at the same time, to continue to mock them for acquiring newer tech or the ability to be part of a modern 4G program.

Of course, the ambassador didn't really bother to think about other primitive aircraft HAL is making like the Su-30 MKI either, right. An aircraft which has excelled in IAF service, routinely showing up US made F-16s.

Sorry, but the constant ranting about how useless HAL, BEL etc are is grating, and worthless. All said and done, these organizations exist TODAY, they are making stuff TODAY and its in our interest that they continue to improve further. As and when the private sector comes up to compete with HAL etc, all well and good, but to give up the sort of capabilities that we have TODAY in HAL/DPSUs is ridiculous.

Furthermore, we have several folk from HAL who are visiting and a few even posting on this forum. I for one would gladly take THEIR informed inputs and the inputs of those like Kartik who actually have the domain competence to speak valuably and make the effort to do so, each time around. Its about the only differentiator between this forum and the other "indian defence boards" in terms of having some people who make the effort to post valuable insights.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Aug 2012 22:01

Victor wrote:No, we desperately need to see private companies replacing HAL, GTRE, DRDO etc.

Who is "we" and what makes you think that all Indians think similarly?

My expectation from Indian companies is much higher. They WILL get there and sooner than you think. Vivek Lall joining Reliance Aerospace should be an indication of who Boeing really wants as a partner and what he sees as prospects.

Or that Reliance in its long history of making sure it gets the gravy train contracts from the Indian Govt, has ensured that it managed to get Vivek Lall for the right price to shore up its credentials...after he found he was going nowhere in Boeing India but business development.

Besides which, its a well known fact that most foreign MICs DONT want to work with Indian state owned firms not because out of concerns regarding competence, but because they don't want their training and processes to shift anyhow to Indian programs helmed by the DRDO and others.

In other words, their interests are completely antithetical to what most Indians on this board want.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 01 Aug 2012 22:18

This is not the time to tinker with tentative solutions. India's aerospace situation requires emergency surgery and it looks like that is happening. I would not be surprised if HAL is broken up and placed under private management within 5 years for the following reasons:

* It needs to foster innovation, something that is very difficult when seniority trumps merit and "making waves" is frowned upon and perceived as a threat.
* It needs to be freed from political meddling and the pervasive sycophancy that is the norm in large PSUs.
* People need to be accountable at all levels. Not possible at all in govt PSUs that have many people with private fiefdoms to protect.
* It needs to attract the best talent available in India and abroad in multiple fields. Not possible as a govt PSU.
* It represents an acceptable order-taking and contract manufacturing org with its current capabilities so it should not be killed off outright.
* Indian private companies have shown the capability to compete globally and win which stands in stark contrast to our PSUs.

To be sure, HAL (insert GTRE, DRDO etc) represents the Indian peoples' hard earned experience over decades. But inherent weaknesses in a govt (specially Indian govt) environment are responsible for its awful record. Ways will need to be found to prevent the baby from being thrown out with the bathwater.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Aug 2012 22:20

shiv wrote:10 years is soon. Sooner than that is unlikely, unless work is outsourced to existing offshore plants such as the one bought by Mahindras in Australia. And there too its the people who run the company that matter. Developing the manpower in India will be difficult unless they can buy off competent workers from HAL and give then 10 x salary. Not easy because PSUs give pension.

Shiv, there are a bunch of private companies being set up by ex PSU, ex DRDO folks which are actually doing good work & are part of vital programs. Two ex BEL/DRDO firms are Alpha Design Tech (Bangalore) and Astra Microwave (Hyderabad). There are several others SMES around the Hyderabad, Bangalore, Pune areas which are also working in such areas.

The basic problem - its a chicken and a egg story really - is where these companies struggle, and that is investment. These have been raised in various industry seminars, here and there. There are 3 "public issues" which are flagged, and another major one, which is usually not said publicly, but its what it is.

The first three are resources - prior competence/technology, manpower, infrastructure. Most companies are willing to transfer build to print stuff as part of offsets. You can even import the raw material, machine it and then supply back. Point is it takes time, competence etc - which can be built up, but few if any SMEs can invest anywhere near the kind of money required to become part of Boeing's WW 767 supply chain etc.
So the systems that do come in are smaller items. Not the complex large end to end systems...say entire jet engine assemblies with many subcomponents.

So far the bulk of offsets have actually gone to the private sector, but what's holding them back from the real big ones has been investment! SME's cant and till date, many of the larger combines - wouldn't!

They have been instead asking the DPSUs to lobby the MOD for funds & then pool it to invest in partners. Problem with that approach is the "losers" feel they got gypped - Pipavav controversy with Mazagaon comes to mind.

The last issue - which is the elephant in the room - and which nobody wants to admit - is that foreign companies are very wary of increasing Indian domain competence. Stuff like Agni-family, Tejas etc shows that a) we can do stuff b ) we can keep learning c) we have very high ambitions.

We are clearly not the usual allied poodle which is content to get business but not make platforms. Because making platforms means strategic independence and second, possible competitor tomorrow.

This fear is present across all so called partner countries. They routinely do everything they can to block tech transfer and make life miserable during negotiations, but then do a song and dance about how they are reliable partners once deal is signed. Yeah right. I am giving away no secrets (and this is public information) that one of our so called JVs for guidance systems is stuck because the partner did everything it could to wriggle out of working with a PSU but is finally stating it will be a JV...its been several years now.

Its East India company redux, they want our money, but they don't want us to make stuff which makes us stand on our own two feet. The good thing though is that it does seem MOD understands this.

Despite immense lobbying, credit where it is due, so far they have resisted pressure to relax their aims and objectives regarding offsets and they have kept coming out with better DPP (Defence Procurement Procedures) which are fairly comprehensive.

One hopes that will continue.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Aug 2012 22:30

Victor wrote:This is not the time to tinker with tentative solutions. India's aerospace situation requires emergency surgery and it looks like that is happening.

Sorry..fear mongering, that's all this is.."emergency surgery? For what?

Things couldn't be better as far as Indian defence firms are concerned, the offset gravy train is getting bigger, there are so many programs underway that many SME's are getting decent business...unless the GOI messes up the economy fierce, things wont change..

The latest DPP also gives clear participation rights to Indian firms, under the make procedure.

Net, the PSUs will face more competition, but they aren't going anywhere.

I would not be surprised if HAL is broken up and placed under private management within 5 years for the following reasons:

I would be very surprised, because there is no such message in India...no sudden fears regarding HAL etc.

HAL itself is very confident (more so than BEL) because it knows how complex its work is and how much time & investment it will take for a rival to emerge. Through programs like the FGFA etc, it will continue to be MOD's aircraft maker of choice. Basically, it has a lockdown on all 3 programs for the future -FGFA, MMRCA, AMCA (in all probability).

Rest is the usual generic private versus public boilerplate which has been discussed a million times over the internet.

Besides which, the same issues exist in spades in the Indian private sector as well - speak to any of our Indian firm execs and their constant bemoaning of "Indian company values".

Everyone in India grins and bears it, so things won't magically improve just because management changes.

What's going to happen is typical India, gradual but sustainable - some companies will rise to become possible Tier 1 suppliers to HAL, the SME base will grow...

Reliance bears watching because it has the money and political clout to swing deals, but assembly of entire platforms is something that even the primary defence customer (IAF) will be very guarded about.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 01 Aug 2012 22:39

Karan M wrote:what makes you think that all Indians think similarly?

I don't. I refer to the majority of Indians who I think will agree that HAL is a non-performer compared to say a Tata. But I expect you to respect my point of view and present valid counters, not make accusations.

Or that Reliance in its long history of making sure it gets the gravy train contracts from the Indian Govt, has ensured that it managed to get Vivek Lall for the right price to shore up its credentials...after he found he was going nowhere in Boeing India but business development.

I might read this as a smart businessman who is close to GoI getting the inside track on which way the wind is blowing. And a smart Boeing executive making a smart life decision because he too sees something hugely positive that he wants to be part of. Happens all the time.

Besides which, its a well known fact that most foreign MICs DONT want to work with Indian state owned firms not because out of concerns regarding competence, but because they don't want their training and processes to shift anyhow to Indian programs helmed by the DRDO and others.

If foreign MICs want to participate in the Indian aerospace industry, they will have to do so under Indian requirements, not on their own terms. They don't want to work with Indian government firms because they have a long negative track record to deal with and know exactly what created it. No responsible company would willingly put itself in a bad situation.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 01 Aug 2012 22:56

Karan M wrote:
Sorry..fear mongering, that's all this is.."emergency surgery? For what?

Things couldn't be better as far as Indian defence firms are concerned, the offset gravy train is getting bigger, there are so many programs underway that many SME's are getting decent business...unless the GOI messes up the economy fierce, things wont change..

Your opinion, not shared by me and what I think are the majority of Indians.

Everyone in India grins and bears it, so things won't magically improve just because management changes.

Again your opinion which I respect but don't agree with. I am convinced that a majority of Indians abhor this kind of thinking and have become sick of it.

There's little point in going off on a "he says she says" tangent here. The bottom line is we all want the best for Indian military aviation and we all have our own beliefs on what it will take. Many believe that the DPSUs have failed miserably and are responsible for our unenviable situation today where we import rifles and ammunition from 3rd rate countries. Many believe that this "the Indian way", chalta hai etc. It's important to recognize that NOBODY here is suggesting that HAL etc should become extinct and all its people be fired. Most believe IMO that there is a middle ground and folks like Alpha Design and Astra Microwave are one indication of how it may be possible to break out of the DPSU straightjacket and why this is happening.