Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

[kancha]

9 months on, IAF finds MiG pilot’s remains

An Indian Air Force search team has hit upon what could be vital clues in a nine-month-old mid-air supersonic MiG-29 crash mystery. It has found body parts including a foot thumb, back bone believed to be those of the missing pilot Sqn Ldr DS Tomar and burnt wreckage of the MIG-29 that had hit the 16,000-foot-high glacier in the Chokhang mountain range and crashed after it lost radio contact with the Adampur air base in Jalandhar at 8.30 pm on October 18, 2011.

[kit]

I think the emerging pvt sector will do a risk free approach in developing new products. Although I am all for them to enter defense manufacturing ., there is a good possibility that older generation products will be passed of as the next and humungous profits made in collusion with those using it . Everyone will be happy ., we too at BRF since we too would think our pvt sector is finally 'there' .. Till the next war
The beauty of the system being war doesn't happen everyday . I think our pvt sector should be allowed to export at the very beginning ., hopefully some mechanism in those countries ( not banana republics) will ensure they make decent products ., I certainly don't have any belief in govt procurement mechanisms esp w r t defense products . It's just easy money .

[Karan M]

I'll add that we don't need companies that are answerable to no one, have a culture of sycophancy, promote on seniority not merit, have non-competitive remuneration for top talent and have a decades long record of under performance because of these debilitating maladies.

In which case the private sector is not a panacea, since all these issues exist in the private sector in spades and in some cases, even more so than in the public sector which at least does not suffer from salaries not being paid on time, shady promoters & unprofessional management linked to family combines.

You would have known all this if you actually lived in or worked in India, but in all probability you don't hence the rather unreasonable expectations from the private sector.

Those who see the daily reality of how things are would appreciate what Shiv says about change that has to occur across the board, public and private & where the private sector will ultimately fit in.

If we can change HAL/GTRE/DRDO to this state it will be a welcome miracle and you'll get no further arguments from me. Yes, eventually even this type of company will produce *something* but IMO that would be by accident not design. IMO.

Actually HAL/DRDO etc are already producing enough and providing enough reasons for their continued existence. The continued successes re: Agni, etc on relatively shoestring budgets prove the point. The fact that there are people from HAL involved with programs like the LCH being developed to IAF requirements in an effective fashion also prove it.

India is also best served by doing what it is doing (iterative improvement) rather than embracing "radical surgery" (whatever that means).

To whit, all the claims of accountability, non sycophancy etc and similar buzzwords when the US MIC which you have given as an examplar, has developed "game changers" like the F-22 (which still can't fly at altitude & has who knows what problems regarding hypoxia etc so much so that USAF pilots had to take congressional protection and go to TV to bust open the news), has come up with utter turkeys time and again, which went nowhere like Crusader and Comanche (which consumed money several times over entire Indian R&D yearly spends, let alone program spends), has displayed pathetic program management in the JSF (and continues to do so)..

While the US has several pros, the amount of cons in its out of control, rampant MIC, bankrupting the national exchequer with wasteful spending on multiple defense programs are also legion.

As matter of fact, if your standards are employed, then the US MIC actually fails the score, because of the brazen levels of public-private corruption that are in the US MIC (hiring ex service folks for cushy jobs after they gave favours and largesse ), utter sycophancy (when was the last time somebody stood up at LM and countered the rubbish that was JSF program management) and pork barrel politics that result in stuff like billion dollar DDGs which account for only 3 units..

Whether you continue your further arguments don't really matter because they come across more and more as merely strong opinions on a topic.

India will find its own path, and it will do so with its own rationale.

The DPP with thoughtful elements like the make procedure, the offset programs, the continued focus on local programs all speak of the right steps being taken. Thanks much.

[Karan M]

Oh absolutely no disagreement with that post except to point out that you said this earlier:
"Victor": No, we desperately need to see private companies replacing HAL, GTRE, DRDO etc.

It ain't gonna happen. You can fuggedabahtit. Private sector in India will only complement PSUs and WILL NOT supplant them in the foreseeable future for any number of reasons. Anyone who believes otherwise will only continue to have frustrated rants in the name of patriotism and will not see his or her wish fulfilled. I am willing to have this statement carved in stone for future reference. I am neither wishing for it nor responsible for making it happen. I am saying what is and what will be. It is sheer ignorance to be unaware of the place of PSUs and socialist subsidies in India and come up with sweeping "solutions" that can never be implemented in India. It only exposes a deep ignorance of India pasted onto over-anxious patriotism.

And those PSUs currently have more aerospace manpower skills and infrastructure than any private sector player in India and I do not foresee any private player making a big dent on this for at least a a decade. Private industry in India will have to come up pari passu with PSU and they will have to cooperate and exploit each others' skills and strengths. The private sector in India will take 50 years to catch up with HAL, if at all. Unless they get government subsidies or they are allowed to export arms freely. That will be a political decision, not a pure economic decision.

Whether the US is socialist or not has no bearing on this. The most profound professorial knowledge of why and how things work in the US cannot be applied to India by a simple copy paste. Especially if one is disabled by an equally profound ignorance of India, or a superficial knowledge of what things were like in India "when I was in school and college."

+1

The most ridiculous thing is to expect that whatever worked in the US will work for India without even taking what's happening in India into account!

These so called "interventionist" policies have wreaked havoc in all sorts of countries which gave up the effort to find their own paths and then promptly parachuted in experts from fancy organizations, think tanks and what not..

You end up ditching a system which has issues but still delivers, rip it to pieces and then hope that its pale copy of "western success" will work fine.

Refrigerators in Russian aircraft making plants anyone? All the while, while customers like India bemoan lack of spares and end up getting more and more frustrated.

Basic thing is to take what works, build on it and improve it (for instance what the IMI General mentioned to an Army seminar re: the Arjun as versus creating some new "radical cleansheet design"). Similarly, in the Indian MIC context, there are many organizations/labs in DRDO/DPSUs etc that have delivered. They deserve more projects.

Meanwhile allow the private sector to compete - which is being done for programs like the TCS. Allow capabilities to build up and natural competition to drive more focus across organizations.

Ditching the baby with the bathwater, with the huge capacity that has been built up in DPSUs etc is pointless.

India, thanks to a combination of circumstances, has built up a hybrid system with significant capacity in the DPSU arena. We now need to build up the private sector as well. Companies like ECIL have shown that reasonable management is available in the DPSU arena as well. Products like Agni-V etc show theres no dearth of technology development in the public arena as well. The next step is to broadbase this growth/skill across Indian industry..

As and when that happens, it will happen along with gradual changes in entire Indian industry. I fully expect the private firms to start taking the business more seriously, and the real entrepreneurs (instead of the several get rich quick types eyeing the offset bonanza) to sustain their growth over time.

It won't happen overnight, and will take the better part of this decade, and significant "successes" like big ticket private products are at least 15 years away.

Better that, then we rip up whatever we have, pursue privatization at all costs, end up replicating crucial and expensive skills we have lost....and then realize that a more balanced approach was better all along.

The manner in which MDL has nominated several private partners to assist it, was also savvily done. Much better than just going with Pipapav. No expensive copy+paste of xyz model done in zx country required either.

Opening up the "Make" process to private firms was also a good step.

Meanwhile, we need to be focused firmly on a cost effective MIC. One of the things that DRDO et al have done is to be frugal with finances. All said and done, our existing MIC has been built on a relative shoestring - in contrast our off the shelf purchases are the huge outlays of forex. We have to continue this and hopefully reduce the bulk of forex outlays in high volume, low tech items that are presently imported thanks to limitations in the DPSUs like OFB etc being unable to respond effectively to customer requirements.

[kit]

Ultimately it is the work culture of any nation that decides how it develops.Its not just the defense sector.

[Victor]

India will find its own path, and it will do so with its own rationale.

That's what we are trying to influence here aren't we? We simply have different perspectives on what the "path" should be and will have to wait and see what India's leadership is able to do. So far it has been a disaster by almost any measure. The HAL catalog posted above by Shiv is a perfect example of everything that ails us--every single tiny part is designed to fit into a foreign product being made under license to foreign specifications. HAL has done this for decades and become one of the world's biggest license manufacturers of everything about aeroplanes and helicopters, including jet engines. The elephant in the room is the "missing catalog" of HAL-designed and built products that are actually in use by the armed forces. In my book, even a bad copy or redesign of a 1960s turboprop engine would redeem HAL and save India crores daily but it is simply not there. If we are fine with this and are confident that our destiny is assured (because we are special), then there is nothing left to discuss.

Yes it is a waste of time beating this horse because the discourse has degenerated to the point of saying that Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Tata, L&T, Mahindra and Reliance are worse than our PSUs.

[Victor]

One of the things that DRDO et al have done is to be frugal with finances. All said and done, our existing MIC has been built on a relative shoestring - in contrast our off the shelf purchases are the huge outlays of forex.

This gave us a cheap shoestring while we are still spending lakhs of crores in FE on the stuff we really need. We need to start thinking BIG and drop this "cheap", "frugal", "light" nonsense.

[Karan M]

After spending the last hour reading the debate on DPSUs between several folks, with rather valid points, I felt compelled to get out of lurk mode and participate. The fundamental issue here is whether DPSUs are (a) capable and (b) can or will the private sector eventually take over and to what effect. I am sure HAL is capable and has a core cadre of researchers and technicians who work there because they want to. I once heard this from someone in ISRO, that folks join such organizations because they want to. The same source said that ISRO had almost 80% of its cadre that were actually effective. Before you counter this, note that even in the private sector, there is a set of people that don't actually pull their weight and 80% of an organization pulling its weight at PSU salaries is very good, since it is clear that salary is not their motivation. Whether this is true, I do not know first hand, but the source to put it mildly is very credible.

The reason, I laid out this elaborate theme is to raise the question, what is the equivalent effectiveness rating for a DPSU? HAL's deliveries have been late and they tend to take on more than they can chew. When it comes to offsets, they are the 800 lb gorilla in the room, so getting an offset contract is more a testament to the truth of the above statement rather than any intrinsic capability. Tha said, they are doing a hard job, when the private sector can easily poach their employees on salary. I for one would not want to be a manager in their shoes.

So, is the private sector intrinsically better. The answer is not so cut and dried. Yes, they do have better incentive mechanisms, since they are not tied to a nationwide compensation program. Then again, if they are successful, they are a force unto themselves. If a Boeing or Lockheed Martin can derail a Pentagon budget, imagine the power concentrated in the hands of a Reliance, which on a per capita basis is far more powerful than American defense contractors, that are richer on paper. I strongly urge folks to read Eisenhower's famous MIC speech, there are many links to it, one is at http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/ ... ndust.html
While Eisenhower was a cautious general, maybe exceedingly so in the European campaign, his premonition on the power of the MIC was bang on target. Will a push to gain efficiencies through privatization in India come with the same risks as in the US, which right now is clearly following a path of defense expenditures that can only lead to economic ruin, since there appears to be no monetary reality to Pentagon's budget.

Privatization may in the long term not be the panacea it appears to be - DPSUs are slow and inefficient, but at least they don't have to respond to shareholders like private sector firms, where the the only path to success is to change the national defense budget allocation over the long term. In some sense, privatization is like a dictatorship - you get efficiency at a rather large cost. Right now the defense private sector in India is small, much like the US in the nineteen thirtees - it will produce excellent material at reasonable cost, since it still has to prove its worth. The question is what will the private sector do in the long term. If the US with its comprehensive checks and balances system is any example, the private sector path is dangerous.

This has been a long rambling email. Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

Cheerio
Aharam

Aharam, an excellent post!

Kudos for summarizing many valid points into a cogent post.

Your points re: an out of control MIC and its contribution to America's economic challenges are prescient. Going for more and more complex programs, when iterative modernization would do, is clearly a problem and contribute to the fiscal disasters that would sink smaller economies.

[Karan M]

That's what we are trying to influence here aren't we? We simply have different perspectives on what the "path" should be and will have to wait and see what India's leadership is able to do. So far it has been a disaster by almost any measure. The HAL catalog posted above by Shiv is a perfect example of everything that ails us--every single tiny part is designed to fit into a foreign product being made under license to foreign specifications. HAL has done this for decades and become one of the world's biggest license manufacturers of everything about aeroplanes and helicopters, including jet engines. The elephant in the room is the "missing catalog" of HAL-designed and built products that are actually in use by the armed forces. In my book, even a bad copy or redesign of a 1960s turboprop engine would redeem HAL and save India crores daily but it is simply not there. If we are fine with this and are confident that our destiny is assured (because we are special), then there is nothing left to discuss.

Actually, your post above shows how HAL/DPSUs end up becoming the whipping posts in your replies, since you won't look at what HAL's actual position in the entire system was.

HAL was the MOD designated manufacturer, nothing less, nothing more, and what it made was what India could afford with its very stifling foreign exchange/economic limitations that persisted into the 1980's.

In effect, you are blaming HAL for Indian economic policies, and in turn the Govt's view of MIC development in toto. Then you state that somehow privatization will solve this problem. As if. If the MOD was to continue to be obdurate, we'd just replace the then HAL with a now private HAL again doing license manufacturing. No difference.

Instead of your approach, which begins with the assumption that the DPSUs are responsible first & foremost, lets look at 2 things.

1) What HAL has been doing
2) Whether the MOD is now changing how the MIC is structured

1. First, lets consider what HAL has done, once the MOD controls eased over the past decade.

Because, what you should be doing is evaluating HAL over the past decade, to see whether it can improve beyond just license manufacturing.

-it has actually attempted new product development on its own (the LCH is an example). Realizing that avionics were more & more important, HAL has also set up a new Avionics Development unit (similar to how they set up AWRDC for upgrades..).

Further, the HAL built catalog shown by Shiv above is probably a decade out of date. It doesnt mention programs such as these (Software Defined Radios) or this (Open Architecture Mission Computer) that is also managed by HAL.

-whether it is moving up the value chain in terms of its core expertise - manufacturing & system integration (which is visible with taking up complex projects like the Su-30 MKI & now the PAK FA JV).

-In the meanwhile, is it fulfilling a core Indian concern of keeping money within India by taking up work that would usually demand extortionate fees from OEMs - MiG-27 and Jaguar upgrades are examples (Jaguar DARIN upgrades are actually HAL led programs, the MiG-27 was led by DARE).

- whether it is bidding for new programs on commercial terms-i.e. with sanctions for delays etc (it has- the LUH is an example). HAL has continued to involve itself (and implement) other programs for Do228 related business (they supply the wingsets and fuselage components to RuAG which is busy pitching the Do228 across the world), the SHar production etc.

Net, while HAL has a long way to go before it meets everyones aspirations of becoming some super duper 1 stop shop of everything from hyperplanes to fighters (because those are the depth of the IAF's ambitions)...it has not been sitting idle either.

It is not perfect, and could be more efficient, but nor is it anywhere near the dud you insist it is.

2. The entire issue of MIC organization, private, public, DPSU etc.

In other words, the actual issue, beyond just the DPSUs.

Posted repeatedly, is that now, India is also changing its entire procurement structure, with a policy called the DPP (revised pretty much every other year to ensure that it was corrected fast) which gives fair play to both the private and public sectors to actually "make" products, with the MOD financing 80% of the cost.

Net, the era of mere license manufacture wherever and whenever possible is gone.

Licensed manufacture is being undertaken whenever India cannot rapidly meet short term needs, which are not possible with JVs or ab-initio development under the make procedure.

Again, not ideal but developing, and not the disaster that you insist it is, based on issues which have existed earlier and are being solved now.

Well, you have chosen to ignore all of this, and continue berating the DPSUs for their existence, while insisting that some radical answers are required.

And the private sector, which is in a nascent stage of development, will provide all the answers and needs to replace DRDO/HAL etc.

When the latter have multiple items in production having progressed from merely license manufacturing to making own designs. As a number, DRDO developed items have orders of Rs 1,48,000 Crores (over the past decade), around $2.7 Billion to be exact. In turn. these products have MK2 versions in advanced stages of development (e.g. missiles, radars, EW etc), all of which require the developer/manufacturer to continue with their program focus.

And you want this to be "replaced" by an unknown quantity which is yet to even develop to a basic level of consistent success at the platform level.

Sorry, but such statements are neither logical, nor do they reflect any positive outcome for India.

Yes it is a waste of time beating this horse because the discourse has degenerated to the point of saying that Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Tata, L&T, Mahindra and Reliance are worse than our PSUs.

No, I don't think anyone has said that but you.

What people have said is that the private firms in India have a fair way to go before they approach the capabilities demonstrated by the PSUs, and second even when they do, the requirements for the PSUs will remain, since India's needs are so vast.

Its also been said that the American examples used so far, and even the US MIC, are not exactly a paragon for India to emulate, given the manner in which it is soaking up scarce economic resources.

Well, you have chosen to misinterpret all these details and then state the above. Which is the real reason why its a waste of time beating this horse. Since your mind seems to be made up, and if that is so, well then, frankly, details don't matter.

[samverma]

i got a naive question on the PSU issue...can a Maruti Suzuki like venture/structure/organization come into play in the defense sector? Decent privatization with government control/involvement in delicate issues (Manesar problems being an exception but don't think such a huge labor problem will ever happen since defense manufacturing may not be so labor heavy)

[Kakarat]

45 years after mystery crash, ID card recovered from glacier

[negi]

Aharam sir as usual a fundoo post; I remember your post on heavy vs light fighter when it came to dogfight that slalom course analogy was so apt. I am begining to enjoy being in a lurk mode than merely posting a one liner, boy I am getting old.

[KrishnaK]

It's US policy of doing what it takes to maintain her supremacy that's responsible for the size and weight of the US MIC. There are other heavily industrialized nations that don't have a MICs that big, even relative to their size.

[member_22906]

My 0.02$ on the current HAL related topic... There are a fair no. of former HAL/ADA/CABS etc. employees in my current orgn. and some of the common experiences they most shared about the previous employment are:

a) Great learning experience
b) More exposure to high end work there than here (partly also because the aerospace sector is highly regulated and restricted to non-US personnel)
c) Strong team spirit
d) Sense of purpose and pride in contributing to the nation was high - read it as high motivation
e) Hierarchical - merit can be recognized but persistence (and good luck) is required if u want to move fast in your career
f) Very poor on project management (unrealistic milestones - trying to skip multiple generations w/o any prior expertise)
g) Funding (esp in CABS & ADA) wasnt too much of a concern - could be relative to the financial powers they may currently by having to take it FWIW
h) Salaries were low earlier and now the same people feel that it will be difficult to poach personnel (former colleagues) post salary corrections in these setups

Some of my personal beliefs changed post these interactions since I thought earlier that these setups were no good...

[amit]

I normally don’t comment in this part of the forum, however, the HAL bashing here…

Shiv, Karan M and others have given a scholastic response to this nonsense.

Just to add my 2 cents I’d like to ask the private sector champions to take part in a simple exercise.

Name one world class product produced and successfully commercialised by the Indian private sector in:

1) Automobiles (I know Nano would qualify in terms of innovation but commercial success?)
2) Consumer electronics/semiconductors
3) Heavy engineering.

If you can't respond to that then I'm afraid I can only feel hot air.

Mind you building a state of the art fighter plane is several orders of magnitude more difficult than stuff that’s made in these three sectors – more so as critical technologies from abroad are not available on demand. (Even the Nano got a lot of design inputs from various global partners of Tata Motors).

Having grown up in Kolkata, I’ve heard from my father and uncles how “nationalisation” destroyed great engineering companies like Braithwaite, Burns Standard and Jessops in the 1960s and 1970s, much before Larsen & Tourbo came along. As a result I’m no admirer of the Socialist model of having everything under the state.

However, having said that, it’s not a question of one size fits all. Defence equipment manufacture is probably the most difficult in the world. Heck almost 80 per cent (or more) of the technology that we use everyday was initially developed ab initio for defence related reasons.

The fact that Indian now has a nascent MIC developing is thanks to the fact that companies like HAL, the defence shipyards and of course various institutions like DRDO have done the initial spadework to build capacity – especially human capital. But this is a work in progress. The idea that just because Reliance has set up an aerospace company, we can junk HAL or since Pipavav Shipyard has come up we don’t need the PSU shipyards is preposterous.

Once these private sector players find their feet then things could change. In the meantime, we are stuck with HAL because that’s the stage of economic development India is at. It's not a question of whether Tata, Reliance and others are > or < than PSUs. It's about taking the risk to build capacity. None of the public listed private sector companies can or would have taken the risk which PSUs have taken in building capacity. The fact that they are now showing so much interest in joining the MIC is a function of the fact that it's only now that a certain level of momentum has come in the Indian economy, in terms of requirement, money and knowhow to make it worthwhile for them to purse MIC related activities as profit making commercial ventures. Thank HAL for that, don't curse it.

Another question: Russia is undoubtedly a great aerospace power, the only one which can give the US private sector giants, like Boeing a run for their money in military jets. Till recently, weren’t the two Russian companies PSUs? Aren’t they still PSUs?

[rajanb]

+1

[Sumair]

Why do we always have to compare with America? Not everything America does is perfect, but far from it. Many American institutions are deeply flawed and inefficient. Look at their military industrial complex, their health care system etc, but they have the ability out spend their mistakes and we don’t. After all they can print dollars while we have to earn them. So everything American is not the Gold Standard. Instead of trying copy everything America, we should learn from them, and not make the same mistakes that they do.
Anything worth copying is their work ethics. It is America’s greatest virtue. Sorry to say this, but we are sorely lacking in that department. We perhaps are the most hypocritical society with the sense of all the entitlements, but without any responsibilities and accountabilities, and thus the frustrations…

[member_22539]

^^ I agree. But, the sense of entitlement starts at the very basic level, namely the whiners who don't vote. How many of the whiners and bitter critics, cynics and mockers have actually done their minimum basic duty of voting? If I had my way, I would make consistent nonvoters secondary citizens with extra taxes and no state services save a few.

[Rahul M]

>> I would make consistent nonvoters secondary citizens with extra taxes and no state services save a few.

sounds like a good idea.

[JTull]

>> I would make consistent nonvoters secondary citizens with extra taxes and no state services save a few.

sounds like a good idea.

There are already hundreds of millions who vote and pay no income tax. These are the vote banks divisionist politics takes advantage of and these are the people who formulate Indian policy. What is the point of a taxpayer to vote when there will be 100 other non-taxpayers who can override his point of view in how to run government? I say if you don't pay taxes then you can't vote.

[Singha]

>> I say if you don't pay taxes then you can't vote.

thats the better idea.

india any case our democracy has become a tattered cloak where good men cannot even think of entering at city councillor or MLA level - they will be pressured and threatened in worst case or soundly defeated by money power in best case. we vote to elect a lesser criminal among a panel of criminals.

there was a big drive in ORR recently to vote a technie into a local councillor position...people got registered for that in campus...what happened..he got soundly beaten I think

[vic]

Name one Pvt sector Company which has got assured orders and Molly Coddling like HAL?

[Sumair]

Name one Pvt sector Company which has got assured orders and Molly Coddling like HAL?

Would Maruti qualify as a private sector company?

[Neela]

Name one Pvt sector Company which has got assured orders and Molly Coddling like HAL?

And that is how you troll!

[amit]

Name one Pvt sector Company which has got assured orders and Molly Coddling like HAL?

So what your saying is that the pvt sector needs handholding from the Govt to produce world-class products. Ok I agree with your proposition, because the state of our economy and tech knowledge makes that a truism.

However tell me, how does the pvt sector remain different from PSUs like HAL? I mean if both depend on govt mollycoddling to succeed then what's the case for pvt sector? At least the profits of PSUs are public money. But profits of pvt sector is private profit.

[Katare]

wow! I thought I clicked nukkad by mistake

[shiv]

Name one Pvt sector Company which has got assured orders and Molly Coddling like HAL?

I think we should not be taking the discussion down this route.

Infosys security provided by GoI

[Victor]

Name one world class product produced and successfully commercialised by the Indian private sector

Until very recently, our famous license raj would punish a private sector company for making more sugar or cement than allowed by license, even in the face of severe, decades-long scarcity. Even today, the remnants of these idiotic rules require a company like Reliance to apply for permission to make aeroplanes. Nobody seems to see the complete absurdity and idiocy of this. It is only in the past decade that Indian companies have been partly unshackled but they have still managed to compete very well with the best globally. If we want to be among the the best globally, we need not worry about our capabilities. We have it in spades and all the govt needs to do is provide support and get out of the way.

Russia is undoubtedly a great aerospace power, the only one which can give the US private sector giants, like Boeing a run for their money in military jets. Till recently, weren’t the two Russian companies PSUs? Aren’t they still PSUs?

All were soviet companies that had the basics: answerability at all levels, real competition and the best talent in the country. These ensured that merit was recognized and promoted quickly in order to save everyone's collective skins. HAL has none of these and the govt has just woken up to the problem because it IS a problem. BTW, I'm not very hopeful about Russian companies now but I hope I'm proven wrong. We need them.

To be honest, I am truly shocked that there are still so many people who question why the government should support private companies in making the weapons we need. It betrays simple ignorance—in every large arms making country, the government provides almost all the funds for research and development and even makes sure that the right companies make a healthy profit. Its not about “socialism” or “private profit” but about getting the best weapons to defend ourselves in a very bad neighborhood. After all, we don't have too many problems importing what we need from foreign private companies.

[abhishek_sharma]

all the govt needs to do is provide support and get out of the way.

Can't you see the contradiction (or hypocrisy) in the statement shown above?

To be honest, I am truly shocked that there are still so many people who question why the government should support private companies in making the weapons we need.

And I am truly shocked to see that you cannot understand that people who make the profit should make the investment (for R&D). Govt funded R&D and (unhindered) private profits is a transfer of wealth from the society to the people who run the company. You cannot make a case for such a regressive move.

It betrays simple ignorance—in every large arms making country, the government provides almost all the funds for research and development and even makes sure that the right companies make a healthy profit.

Bad argument. You should explain why it is a good thing. Just because America/France does it does not imply that it is the best possible course of action. And don't repeat your previous bad argument "don't we want world-class weapons?". Given that corporations have too much influence on the decision making of American govt, it is not surprising that they are making sub-optimal decisions. Indeed, there is an on-going discussion on these issues in America.

In my view, this is how these things should be run:

1. Govt should not restrict the activities of private sector.
2. Govt should not provide any subsidy/help for any private sector R&D/work.
3. Private sector should get into this domain and compete with each other. The number of companies in this field should not be restricted. Private companies should not create monopolies.
4. Let the private companies compete with each other (and PSUs). Govt should do the cost/price tradeoff and buy the best product. There should not be any bias towards public or private companies.

Its not about “socialism” or “private profit” but about getting the best weapons to defend ourselves in a very bad neighborhood.

See, how doing the hard work (of R&D) is for "defending the company". By the way, can the private companies sell those weapons to the military at minimal profits? You know reducing the prices will help us to buy more weapons and help us to "defend ourselves in a bad neighborhood"? Oops...I guess it will shackle the radical innovation of the free markets. Why bring back socialism?

[RoyG]

I agree Victor. Unshackle the private sector and we will probably see some great competition and more world class products.

[Victor]

Just because America/France does it does not imply that it is the best possible course of action.

Agreed. But if America/France/Great Britain/Germany/Italy/Spain/Russia/China/South Africa/Israel/Brazil/Argentina/Bulgaria/Ukraine/South Korea/Japan ityadi does it what makes us different or special? Are we genetically wired or have divine sanction to prove correct something that the entire developed world has proved incorrect after decades of trial and error? GoI had apparently believed that until recently but the latest Defense Procurement Policy spells out how GoI will pay for almost all the R&D for selected private companies entering the defense sector to compete with the PSUs on a level playing field. A light finally blinked on in their heads but as usual, only after complaints against the PSUs from the army and air force and their suggestions on what to do.

In my view, this is how these things should be run:..

Feel free to tell GoI. As a tax-paying patriot, you have the right to do that.

.. making sub-optimal decisions....Indeed, there is an on-going discussion on these issues in America.

So? "Discussions" are a healthy thing to do in free societies but have they stopped their spending or even tried to rein in the big bad private companies? Nope. One thing to understand properly is that countries like America will do everything in their power not just to retain their weapons edge by at least a generation but also to prevent others from coming anywhere near them in development. One of the oldest and most well-tested ways of accomplishing the latter is called "misinformation". We should never listen to what they say but watch what they do.

[tsarkar]

Name one Pvt sector Company which has got assured orders and Molly Coddling like HAL?

I think we should not be taking the discussion down this route...Infosys security provided by GoI

You're wrong, non PSU companies pay for CISF security http://www.indianexpress.com/news/relia ... ha/945004/ BTW, I'm told the owing of dues is because of the inablity of the govt to accept electronic fund transfer.

Do provide examples of legitimate government support for publicly-owned-and-listed-enterprises*, other than extended-family-owned-private-enterprises like Ravi Rishi owned Vectra Group.

* Publicly-owned-and-listed-enterprises should not be categorized as "private sector" because common Indian citizens are their shareholders.

[abhishek_sharma]

>> But if America/France/Great Britain/Germany/Italy/Spain/Russia/China/South Africa/Israel/Brazil/Argentina/Bulgaria/Ukraine/South Korea/Japan ityadi does it what makes us different or special?

I am not claiming that the current Indian system is optimal. As I mentioned before, govt should remove barriers which hinder the activities of private companies. But I am not willing to accept that govt should support the R&D activities of private companies and then they would set their own prices of products.

>> Oh BTW, the latest Defense Procurement Policy spells out how GoI will pay for almost all the R&D for selected private companies entering the defense sector. A light finally blinked on in their heads after complaints against the PSUs from the army and air force and their suggestions on what to do.

The blinking of light can also be explained by the fact that funds are needed for financing election campaigns. At least in America, this is a pretty good explanation.

>> So? "Discussions" are a healthy thing to do in free societies but have they stopped their spending or even tried to rein in the big bad private companies? Nope.

So what? Just as people in India have elected bad governments and made poor decisions, similarly people in America continue their mistakes. == onlee.

>> One thing to understand properly is that countries like America will do everything in their power not just to retain their weapons edge by at least a generation but also to prevent others from coming anywhere near them in development.

And another thing is to find out who is bearing the costs and who is reaping the profits? Are there some people who are gaming the system and making millions/billions just by exploiting the emotions involving the defense of the country? Are *all* people bearing the costs equitably? Is the society paying for the yachts of some CEOs?

[Victor]

You're wrong, non PSU companies pay for CISF security http://www.indianexpress.com/news/relia ... ha/945004/

Wow, this is a mind-numbing revelation. So if I understand it correctly, the GoI is unable to make conditions safe within the country for our top companies (forget the aam companies and janta) and then turns around and charges these companies for protection? What do they do with the taxes that these companies pay? Sounds a lot like hafta.

[shiv]

Do provide examples of legitimate government support for publicly-owned-and-listed-enterprises*, other than extended-family-owned-private-enterprises like Ravi Rishi owned Vectra Group.

* Publicly-owned-and-listed-enterprises should not be categorized as "private sector" because common Indian citizens are their shareholders.

Sorry sir I don't understand. You seem to be asking me a question and my reply should have the following points that you demand

• legitimate (you will judge the legitimacy I guess)
• publicly owned
• listed
• Not publicly owned and listed
• not extended family owned
• something that is called private sector (as per your definition)
• not Vectra group
• Should have no association with Ravi Rishi (whoever that might be)

To me this looks like you are putting a lot of conditions on the answer that I cannot fulfill. But it is amusing that you have to put up this impossible list just to disagree. How about a simpler question?
Something related to the thread maybe?

[Indranil]

Cross posting from the pictures thread.

Yesterday: Tel Aviv - Ben Gurion, Israel
First Bombardier Global 5000 for




Israeli reg - 4X-COF so some phitting-bitting to be done still.....

When was this ordered? For what?

P.S. Gentlemen, please leave this thread for discussion on Indian Military Aviation and not the virtues of private and public entities ... there is a thread for that!

[sum]

When was this ordered? For what?

Sirji,IIRC, this was reported on BR a month back.

The Indian Air Force have taken delivery of a Global 5000 from Bombardier, from an order originally destined for a Maltese customer.

Arriving at Shannon on Sunday night from St. Louis Downtown, msn 9424 / C-GHVB stayed the night before departing to Tel Aviv the next morning.


It’s unclear if the aircraft is destined for some work with Israel Aerospace Industries in Tel Aviv before final delivery, but it is understood that the Indians have been shopping for a system similar to the Raytheon developed Global Express based Airborne Stand-Off Radar (ASTOR) system deployed by the UK’s Royal Air Force recently in Afghanistan.

Apparently, some Maltese customer didnt pick this up and IAF jumped at the offer . Of course, IAF is getting some gizmos fitted onto them from Israel.

[Victor]

But I am not willing to accept that govt should support the R&D activities of private companies

I sympathise as at one time, I was not willing to accept that Rani Mukherjee was not my girlfriend. It was a fruitless position.

and then they would set their own prices of products.

But at least in this case you are wrong--in return for a level playing field, the private companies will have to sit down with the government and agree on what is a "fair" price that will both keep them healthy and provide what the country needs. Again, not unusual because it makes sense and is done by everyone.

Gentlemen, please leave this thread for discussion on Indian Military Aviation and not the virtues of private and public entities ... there is a thread for that!

Agreed, no more from me on this here.

[Indranil]

When was this ordered? For what?

Sirji,IIRC, this was reported on BR a month back.

The Indian Air Force have taken delivery of a Global 5000 from Bombardier, from an order originally destined for a Maltese customer.

Arriving at Shannon on Sunday night from St. Louis Downtown, msn 9424 / C-GHVB stayed the night before departing to Tel Aviv the next morning.


It’s unclear if the aircraft is destined for some work with Israel Aerospace Industries in Tel Aviv before final delivery, but it is understood that the Indians have been shopping for a system similar to the Raytheon developed Global Express based Airborne Stand-Off Radar (ASTOR) system deployed by the UK’s Royal Air Force recently in Afghanistan.

Apparently, some Maltese customer didnt pick this up and IAF jumped at the offer . Of course, IAF is getting some gizmos fitted onto them from Israel.

That much I googled before posting . Don't know what is the intended use. Complement the ECJ/BBJs or the Gulfstreams/Astra?

Just saying IAF really likes it Khichdi. It will now have operational experience of all the possible platforms for the 9 COMJAM/SIGINT aircraft orders. Bomabardier, Gulfstream, Embraer, all covred .

P.S. No 'sir', 'ji', 'mahodai" for me please

[Singha]

IAF had a RFP out for a ASTOR / SIGINT type platform...around 9 planes I think. but this might be just to beef up existing stock.
http://livefist.blogspot.in/2012/04/iaf ... for-9.html

IAI AISIS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-STM_0V5u6g