Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

In the above post I showed how Professor Witzel has shown that "Absence of evidence is presence of proof"

Here is a case where Harvard Professor Witzel argues that absence of evidence is evidence of Absence.

From his 118 page verbal diarrhea posted by SN_Rajan (and linked by me above):

Witzel says that Mitanni could not be Rig Vedic sanskrit because the (less than) 20 words include typical vedic sanskrit words but no typical South Asian origin words like "ANi".
They would have lingered somewhere in N.W. Iran to emerge around 1400 BCE as Hurrianized Mitanni-IA, with some remnant IA words and some terms of IA religion. But they would have done so without any of the local South Asian innovations[N.167] (no retroflex in mani-, no -edh-, -h-, etc.) that are already found in the RV, and also without any particularly Indian words (lion, tiger, peacock, lotus, lynch pin ANi) all of which would have been 'selectively' forgotten while only typical IA and IE words were remembered.
The 15 odd words of Mitanni (which include several proper names) - do not have 4 nouns and one sound that witzel wants to see. So the language cannot be Vedic sanskrit. Absence of evidence of evidence of absence.

Going by Witzels logic, no threads other than this one exist on BRF because none are visible on this page.

As an aside will no one, even his own loyal chelas ask Witzel how anyone can express a South Asian retroflex phoneme in Akkadian Cuneiform if the phoneme did not exist in Hurrian? How does Witzel, linguist par excellence, expect to find that there? And how is its absence proof of anything? Witzel is a funny old buffoon. Manishji, any theories on this minus asterisks if poss?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by A_Gupta »

Great find. Shiv. Paul Thieme argues that a proto-Aryan would have only one Nasatya. It is only in the Rig Veda that we see one Nasatya turn into two. Two Nasatyas are invoked in the Mitanni treaty. This is just one of the arguments Thieme has that the Mitanni treaty is Vedic or post-Vedic.
Last edited by A_Gupta on 06 Sep 2012 19:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_23686 »

OT Mode on...

Saraswati ma also went OIT
Benzaiten
Benzaiten (弁才天, 弁財天) is the Japanese name for the Hindu goddess Saraswati. Worship of Benzaiten arrived in Japan during the 6th through 8th centuries, mainly via the Chinese translations of the Sutra of Golden Light, which has a section devoted to her. She is also mentioned in the Lotus Sutra and often depicted holding a biwa, a traditional Japanese lute, in contrast to Saraswati who holds a stringed instrument known as a veena. Benzaiten is a highly syncretic entity with both a Buddhist and a Shinto side.
OT Mode off :)
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

RajeshA wrote:However before one gets all gung-ho over him, another piece of information. He is also the co-author with Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak of "The Arctic Home in the Vedas". So according to him, yes, Vedas are very old, but they were written by Aryans sitting on the North Pole! So again a different AIT!

What may be interesting would be the astronomical calculations according to which he puts the date of the Vedas to 4,500 BCE!
Jacobi references are explained by Tilak in Orion (and I think also in 'Arctic Home in the Vedas'). The reference led him to realize that the pole star referred to in that Indian text could not be Polaris but rather Thuban (again this was indirect implication rather than direct reference to Polaris or Thuban).

His quoted references could be open playground for those who don't understand either astronomy or error probability and they can always find gullible audience to impress. Frankly I don't understand 'Error probability' as such and especially in the context of how it is applied to any specific observation or experiment. But that does not mean there is dearth of handwaving individuals who pretend it is all clear to them, just too complicated (or too easy) that it is not worth explaining. They know well the slippery slope they will get into. They dare not explain it.

Reg, "Arctic home in the Vedas", while theory may be discounted, there is lot that is useful and my efforts in trying to corroborate Tilak's interpretations took me from Arctic Cirle (Prudoe Bay, Alaska... darn the circle has moved! again!) to Tierra del fuego- Patagonia -Argentina/Chile. Again, one is only amazed by imagination of Tilak. The byproduct of my research (on Arctic theory) was enormous interest I developed in Geology, learnt lot about calendrics (systems worldwide) and also about South American Civilizations. While speculative at this time, Both extreme north and extreme south and south america has India connections.. not in the sense/timing or direction AIT Nazis and AIT sepoys would wish,... but in the sense that would shake their chairs and wet their pants. But then I am not expecting even such exciting response from otherwise dull brains.

And while on the subject, let me bring it to attention of forum members.. that I was neither against nor for for the theory. I found the theory interesting/curious and wanted to test it. This is the attitude demanded by science. If I had found original Veda and horses and elephants in the arctice, I would have been equally delighted. Well, I did find many of these.. but that is another subject alltogether...
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by A_Gupta »

shiv wrote: Paul Thieme, whose 1960 paper is linked below was too honest. Witzel quotes Theime several times but never uses the paper linked below.
Also interesting is this passage:
VARUNA and ASURA:

I well realize that there would be no doubt as to the existence of a Proto-Aryan god *Varuna, if a majority vote could settle such a question. Whoever dissents from this generally accepted belief is liable to be blamed for not giving 'serious reasons'....It should be obvious, however, that the burden of the proof must lie with the believers and not with the doubters, since there is no prima facie evidence for an alleged Proto-Aryan term *Varuna, which could consist only in an exactly corresponding term occurring in Iranian too.

It certainly is true that a great many ideas connected with the Vedic Varuna and e.g., the Avestic Ahura Mazda do correspond. But even if they were still more numerous, the Proto-Aryan antiquity of the name Varuna would not follow with any necessity.

Assuming the existence of a Proto-Aryan divine name *Varuna, we would have to explain why its linguistic equivalent does not appear in the Avesta. This is not easy. Of the names of the four chief Vedic Adityas: Varuna, Mitra, Aryaman and Bhaga, the last thre have clear and incontestable correspondences in the Avesta .....while the first is conspicuously lacking. This is all the more singular since rta 'truth', the ethical concept most intimately associated with Varuna in the RV, is in its Avestic form ....a central concept of Zarathustrian religion.
Since Varuna appears on the Mitanni treaty, the argument is that that the Mitanni treaty is not proto-Aryan.

The sentence with emphasis is a very scholarly way of saying what people are saying on this thread with less subtlety - namely, that the idea that the Mitanni treaty is pre-Vedic is a matter of belief and not of evidence.

Thieme does not touch upon why people believe something unsupported by the evidence, and that too is speculated on in this thread much to the discomfort of ManishH, and SN_Rajan, who feel that it is unscholarly to point out that people in the AIT business are pulling stuff out of their asses.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by A_Gupta »

A_Gupta wrote:Great find. Shiv. Paul Theime argues that a proto-Aryan would have only one Nasatya. It is only in the Rig Veda that we see one Nasatya turn into two. Two Nasatyas are invoked in the Mitanni treaty. This is just one of the arguments Theime has that the Mitanni treaty is Vedic or post-Vedic.
Easier to post from a computer than a tablet. Thieme points out that
In fact, the Avesta knows of one (Nasatya equivalent) only, who is mentioned as a daeva in company with Indra and Saurva. Consequently, the reconstruction of a Proto-Aryan dual *Nasatya must remain doubtful. It must be borne in mind that a single Nasatya is known to the RV also (4.3.6) and, moreover, the RV once forms a dual dvandva Indra-Nasatya (8.26.8 ) which can only mean 'Indra and the [one] Nasatya". Konow's statement...:"The existing state of things makes it necessary to infer that the dual designation Nasatyau is of Indian growth", seems to me to stand unimpaired.
Finally
5. It is now possible to gather up the results of our investigation into a reply to our questions:

Do Mitra, Varuna, Indra and the two Nasatyas protect treaties in the RV? and: Is it likely or provable that they did so in proto-Aryan times?

To the first question a strictly factual answer can be given: all the named gods indeed are said to protect treaties in the RV, even the two Nasatyas, though these only occasionally.

The second one cannot be answered with the same confidence, since we have no primary sources of Proto-Aryan religion and must rely upon the resources of techniques of reconstruction. I hope my discussions have made it clear, what ought to have been clear before: we cannot reconstruct Proto-Aryan religious terms - and much less Proto-Aryan religious ideas - by simply and naively projecting Rigvedic data into Proto-Aryan times.

A reconstruction can be attempted only by a careful confrontation of Vedic and Avestan terminology.

Such confrontation yields the result that but one name in the Mitanni list can be postulated safely as that of a Proto-Aryan god whose function it was to protect treaties - *Mitra...
If there are no convincing counterarguments, it would seem established that the Mitanni treaty is either contemporary with Vedic or else post-Vedic.
Last edited by A_Gupta on 06 Sep 2012 22:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

A_Gupta wrote:Thieme does not touch upon why people believe something unsupported by the evidence, and that too is speculated on in this thread much to the discomfort of ManishH, and SN_Rajan, who feel that it is unscholarly to point out that people in the AIT business are pulling stuff out of their asses.
Yes all that may be, but how does it change the BIG PICTURE? Show me tiger references! :wink:

There is one dynamic we should remind ourselves of!

There is a traditional thinking and then there is the radical theory! The radical theory has to provide a lot of evidence for its new proposals as well as it must show that the old traditional thinking is wrong on many accounts which the radical theory claims to correct!

Now the thing is what is then the traditional thinking? Is it AIT or is it the Indigenism, Autochthony of Sanskrit-speaking Indians?

For almost forever, Indians have been thinking that their languages, philosophies, cosmologies, customs, culture developed in India itself - Indic Civilization is native to the Indian Subcontinent! That is/was the reigning theory!

Along came a few European Indologists and made us eat crap calling it medicine named AIT! Did they really vanquish Indian Indigenism going point by point showing us why what we are thinking cannot be and what are the inconsistencies that need to be removed?

NO! They did not! They simply ignored the challenge of vanquishing our belief in our Indigenism through painstaking debate! They simply proceeded to construct their new theory of our history as it suited them and made us eat it top-bottom, whether we agreed with it or not. And when they left, they left behind their army of AIT-Sepoys to guard the continued domination of their agenda-based history fabrications!

The AIT never defeated Indigenism in debate! So AIT never unseated Indigenism! So how can AIT/AMT be called the reigning theory?

The reigning theory is Indigenism, and AIT still has to provide all the answers to all the questions we pose and convince us that they solve some problem, resolve some mystery, that Indigenism doesn't!

So what spoils this picture? GoI of course! GoI's blind support for AIT frees the West from needing to answer for their lies!

So to some extent the Indigenism/OIT Project needs to be turned inwards! What we the Indigenists/OIT-proponents need to do is to prepare a whole list based on our history which AIT falsifies, and then to demand answers from AIT-Sepoys which are other than based on the notion that the knowledge of the traditionalists and their calendars, their dates, their genealogies, their literature cannot be trusted!

We should first express absolute confidence and trust in our own sources of history, and then to demand these answers! If the AIT-Nazis and AIT-Sepoys want to challenge our traditional thinking they would have to deconstruct each and every historical anchor individually in endless debate, but they cannot be allowed to dismiss our whole history summarily and try to piece our history together based on travelogues from foreigners like Megesthenes, al-Beruni, and Fa-Hsien!
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

i tried explaining the competing AIT and OIT versions to a number of people (including a child and including both goras and desis); without exception all concurred that AIT was clearly shaky at best and OIT seemed to be on much firmer ground

all but one were lay people (with limited knowledge of history) and one older gent with good historical knowledge thought that OIT was far more logical
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

So what exactly did you explain?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

highlights from the preceeding 115 pages
i add my ice age geographical overlay to it - which actually seals the deal for most people
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

Dont mind lekhin can you write it up so its useful talking points please?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

Rajesh ji, I have similar line of thought regarding GoI's position, which I mentioned couple of times on this thread. If things need to change, GoI's stance is the biggest vehicle through which it can be done, previously we said that the narrative must change, instead of playing their game and trying to defend our position, we should go offensive. Take a stance that OIT is true, not because we are chauvinistic, because there is greater truth. Like SN_Rajan ji mentioned, except for few "typos/5% errors which I don't care much", and of course after filtering all the noise, the over all big picture is that OIT is true and the burden of proving us wrong should be pushed to neo-nazi party claiming AMT/AIT in various hues.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

start with
AIT insists that horsemen came down from the north... IVC displacement... vedas... linguistic linkage... aryan logic... victorian scholars... modern scholars say that... blah blah
then talk about the ice caps moving south
ask the question - if you were a hunter gathering band, where would you go?
then ask the question - get a map out, which river valleys in the northern hemisphere appear to be ice free?
then say, what if humans went the other way?
mention the flood legends in almost all human ancestor stories
ask the question of the mittanis
mention that arab numerals came from india
even a child can join the dots
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

Next David Anthony types will claim Saraswati is really from the Middle East after all Hagar, Abraham's slave wife was named after a river. And the invading Aryans named the Ghaggar after her.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

it really doesnt matter on the claims made
dont actually have to counter any of them
just start a new narrative
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

ramana garu, it is already being claimed that Saraswati is the name of the Goddess named after Sarah.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

LM, Thanks. ramana

My post on Hagar was not related to you.

venug, shows how bad their dogma is.


Maybe in OT we need discuss the periodic drive to propogate AIT. I see a pattern.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

Rajesh ji, Jacobi papers:
Jacobi paper1
Jacobi paper2

corrected 2nd url
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

A_Gupta wrote:Great find. Shiv. Paul Thieme argues that a proto-Aryan would have only one Nasatya. It is only in the Rig Veda that we see one Nasatya turn into two. Two Nasatyas are invoked in the Mitanni treaty. This is just one of the arguments Thieme has that the Mitanni treaty is Vedic or post-Vedic.
No wonder Witzel and his chamchas won't touch it with a barge pole. Losers. Download and keep the file for posterity. Thieme also mentions a book called "Aryan Gods of the Mitani People" by Sten Konow. Need to get that.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

A_Gupta wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:Great find. Shiv. Paul Theime argues that a proto-Aryan would have only one Nasatya. It is only in the Rig Veda that we see one Nasatya turn into two. Two Nasatyas are invoked in the Mitanni treaty. This is just one of the arguments Theime has that the Mitanni treaty is Vedic or post-Vedic.
Easier to post from a computer than a tablet. Thieme points out that
In fact, the Avesta knows of one (Nasatya equivalent) only, who is mentioned as a daeva in company with Indra and Saurva. Consequently, the reconstruction of a Proto-Aryan dual *Nasatya must remain doubtful. It must be borne in mind that a single Nasatya is known to the RV also (4.3.6) and, moreover, the RV once forms a dual dvandva Indra-Nasatya (8.26.8) which can only mean 'Indra and the [one] Nasatya". Konow's statement...:"The existing state of things makes it necessary to infer that the dual designation Nasatyau is of Indian growth", seems to me to stand unimpaired.
Finally
5. It is now possible to gather up the results of our investigation into a reply to our questions:

Do Mitra, Varuna, Indra and the two Nasatyas protect treaties in the RV? and: Is it likely or provable that they did so in proto-Aryan times?

To the first question a strictly factual answer can be given: all the named gods indeed are said to protect treaties in the RV, even the two Nasatyas, though these only occasionally.

The second one cannot be answered with the same confidence, since we have no primary sources of Proto-Aryan religion and must rely upon the resources of techniques of reconstruction. I hope my discussions have made it clear, what ought to have been clear before: we cannot reconstruct Proto-Aryan religious terms - and much less Proto-Aryan religious ideas - by simply and naively projecting Rigvedic data into Proto-Aryan times.

A reconstruction can be attempted only by a careful confrontation of Vedic and Avestan terminology.

Such confrontation yields the result that but one name in the Mitanni list can be postulated safely as that of a Proto-Aryan god whose function it was to protect treaties - *Mitra...
If there are no convincing counterarguments, it would seem established that the Mitanni treaty is either contemporary with Vedic or else post-Vedic.
Touché
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

Witzel is such an insufferable buffoon. In his 118 page pool of vomit from which SN_Rajan made copious copy pastes i found this brlliant gem

First - on why Mitanni must be older than Rig Veda - "Occam's razor" applies because the people could not have retained memories language of days gone by:
If one now thinks through the implications of the autochthonous theory again, the ancestors of the Mitanni Indo-Aryans would have left India very early indeed (well before their favorite date of the RV, 2600/5000 BCE, and well before 1900 BCE, the supposed date of the brAhmaNa texts, Kak 1994). They would have done so with the Rgvedic dialect features (ai > e, zdh > edh) not yet in place, and without any of the alleged MIA forms of Misra (satta, etc.), but with the typical OIA and IIr terms for horses and chariot racing (before their invention and introduction into South Asia)! They would have lingered somewhere in N.W. Iran to emerge around 1400 BCE as Hurrianized Mitanni-IA, with some remnant IA words and some terms of IA religion.

But when it coms to his personal bluff in is perfectly OK for Aryans to have a distant memory of things that happened 2000 years earlier, the PIE speakers left cold steppes with their wolves (Steppenwolf?) in 2000 BC and that reflected in Rig Veda retained in memory till 150 AD till someone wrote it all down
Therefore, words such as those for 'wolf' and 'snow' rather indicate linguistic memories of a colder climate than an export of words to Iran and Europe, such as that for the high altitude Kashmirian birch tree.
Is Witzel really that stupid? Or perhaps he, like others who feel they have "made it" in centers of ostensible excellence thinks everyone else is too stupid to see though his bluff.
Last edited by shiv on 06 Sep 2012 21:40, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Vayutuvan »

Shiv ji

Here is the ebook link.

Aryan Gods of Mittani People By Steve Konow
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

matrimc wrote:Shiv ji

Here is the ebook link.

Aryan Gods of Mittani People By Steve Konow
:( Unfortunately available for viewing in US only.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:
matrimc wrote:Shiv ji

Here is the ebook link.

Aryan Gods of Mittani People By Steve Konow
:( Unfortunately available for viewing in US only.
May be you can use a proxy server!

Added Later: It works!

Proxy Server List
Last edited by RajeshA on 06 Sep 2012 23:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

venug ji,

Many thanks for the Hermann Jacobi papers! I'd be reading them!
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_23700 »

As one reads more and more AIT raw-raw (or rau-rau) literature, one realizes no matter what BS they say (e.g. Occum's razor), when it comes to what they write, it has everything except Occum's razor.

Not unlike our politician parroting... "As Mahatma Gandhi advised us to........".
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

venug, A request for you. More like homework.
Get a small group of say three others and:


Please collect all the book, paper e-links and post them in one thread in GDF. Call it OIT Reference material.
Its too valuable to be wasted.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

ramana garu, sure will do.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_23700 »

Ramana Garu, Vengu Garu,

Does BRF have ability/facility to store not only links but actual documents?

Over time, links become disfunctional, hence the query.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

AntuBarwa ji, you are right, but I don't think documents can be uploaded to BRF server. May be a file repository can be created with 1 or 2 Gb for pdfs on dropbox or any other file hosting site.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by A_Gupta »

shiv wrote:
matrimc wrote:Shiv ji

Here is the ebook link.

Aryan Gods of Mittani People By Steve Konow
:( Unfortunately available for viewing in US only.
It gives me only the title page, says the rest is copyright protected, and I need to be a member of a subscribing institution.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_23700 »

A_Gupta wrote:It gives me only the title page, says the rest is copyright protected, and I need to be a member of a subscribing institution.
I could not download but could read entire document at their site.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Continuing from the post on Hermann Jacobi's writings.

From the July 1909 paper

Among the documents found by Hugo Winckler there are treaties between Subbiluliuma, king of the Hittites, and Mattiuaza, king of Mitani (Northern Mesopotamia), of the time about 1400 B.C. In these treaties deities of both these nations are invoked.

Hugo Winckler found the following :—x
ilani mi-it-ra-aš-ši-il ilāni uru-w-na-aš-ši-el
.....................(variant), a-ru-na-aš-ši-il
ilu......... in-dar ilāni na-ša-a[t-ti-ia-a]n-na
(variant) in-da-ra na-š[a]-at-ti-ia-an-na,


The affixes aššil and anna are not yet clear; they probably belong to the Hittite idiom. The word ilu is the Babylonian for " god ", and ilāni is the plural. Here, then, we have Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and the Nasatyas or Aś vins. The plural ilani before Mitra and Varuna indicates, according to Professor Eduard Meyer's plausible explanation, that both formed an aggregate, a pair; for in the usual dvandva - compound Mitra - Varunau both words are in the dual, which is represented by the plural ilāni, since the Babylonian language has no dual.

These five gods not only occur in the Rgveda, but they are grouped together here precisely as we find them grouped in the Veda. In my opinion this fact establishes the Vedic character and origin of these Mitani gods beyond reasonable doubt. It appears, therefore, quite clearly that in the fourteenth century B.C. and earlier the rulers of Northern Mesopotamia worshipped Vedic gods. The tribes who brought the worship of these gods, probably from Eastern Iran, must have adopted this worship in their original home about the sixteenth century. At that time, then, the Vedic civilization was already in its full perfection. This fact makes the late date of the Veda usually adopted impossible, and is distinctly in favour of my theory.

But there is one difficulty which must be discussed. There is doubt as to the nationality of the kings of Mitani who worshipped the Vedic gods. According to Winckler (p. 37) the dynasty of those kings was as follows:—
..............Sa-us-sa-tar
...............Artatama
...............Sutarna I
Tushratta.................Artatama II
Mattivaza.................Sutarna II (Suttatarra)

These names are certainly not Sanskrit, but look like Iranian names ; and similarly the names of two later kings of Kommagene, who probably descended from the same stock, Kundaspi (854 B.C.) and Kustaspi (743 B.C.).

In two articles Professor Eduard Meyer fully recognizes the Iranic character of these names, and at the same time he is of opinion that the Vedic gods were native gods of the tribe from which the rulers of Mitani descended. He supposes, therefore, that that tribe was a member of the still undivided Aryan branch of the Indo-Germanic family, and that their gods were Aryan gods. For Mitra is not only an Indian, but also an Iranian god. Indra, the Vedic god, is also mentioned in the Avesta, but only as a demon; and so is a Naonhaithya (= Nasatya). And Varuna is thought by Professor Meyer to be identical with Ahuramazda. Furthermore, the form Nasatya of the inscription, instead of the Zend form Naonhaithya, would, in his opinion, prove that the inscription belongs to a time when, in the undivided Aryan language, s had not yet been changed into h, as in the Iranian languages. According to Eduard Meyer the Aryan period, which is theoretically constructed by comparative philology, is now, for the first time, verified by documentary evidence.

With reference to the antiquity of Vedic culture, let us now consider this theory that in the fifteenth century B.C. the Aryan branch of the Indo-Germanic family was as yet undivided. It is obvious that if this theory be true the Indians cannot have been settled in the Punjab in the fifteenth century B.C. as an independent people, as Eduard Meyer contended a year before Winckler's discoveries had been made known.1 But it would be unfair to take him now at his word; however, the question which requires an answer is this : what length of time would be needed for the development implied in Meyer's hypothesis with regard to the Aryan character of the Mitani gods. This development would pass through four stages — (1) the differentiation of the undivided Aryan branch into two different peoples, Indian and Iranian, and of the one Aryan language into two distinct languages, the Sanskrit and the Iranian; (2) the conquest and settlement of at least a part of Western India by the Indians ; (3) the development of Vedic culture; and (4) the rise and perfection of Vedic poetry, of which the Rgveda would be the later and riper portion then extant. Now all these are slowly progressing racial changes and historical and social movements of great moment. And the time required for them cannot be estimated with anything like exactness even within the limits of one or two centuries. But this much may be said, that the process of development must have been a rapid one if completed within 500 years. With this in mind, if we assume that the fifteenth century B.C. be the starting-point for the differentiation of the Aryan branch into the Indians and the Iranians, we should be obliged to place the Rgveda as it now stands a considerable time after 1000 B.C. I venture to think that few scholars who, without prejudice, consider the great religious, social, and historical changes which happened between the Rgveda and the rise of Buddhism, will be prepared to accept so late a date for the Rgveda. Therefore, since Eduard Meyer's theory leads to consequences inconsistent with the facts of Indian history, must we not reject his theory of the Aryan origin of the Mitani gods ? And must we not insist that it is highly improbable that the undivided Aryans should have worshipped six1 gods just as they appear in the Rgveda, while the Iranians retained only Mithra as a god and entirely changed the character of the remaining ones ?

How, then, can it be explained that an Iranian tribe worshipped Vedic gods ? I assume that the tribes in question (Kharri ?) came from the east of Iran. There, as we know from the Rgveda, Vedic culture once prevailed. And these tribes, being neighbours and perhaps subjects of Vedic tribes who had reached a higher level of civilization, adopted the Vedic gods, and thus brought the Vedic worship with them to their new homes in Mesopotamia. Probably the entrance into India was barred to them because at that time the Vedic people in Western India was at the height of its power, and accordingly they migrated towards the West. They were perhaps attracted by the riches of the ancient monarchies in the plains between the Euphrates and Tigris. I know this is but a guess, but it accounts for the facts better than any other I can imagine.

In view of the facts I have adduced in this paper, I may perhaps think that my chronological argument will yet survive.

_____________________________________


So basically Hermann Jacobi was asking the right question!

We have to get the the Life of Buddha dated correctly - 1887 BCE - 1807 BCE! Around this time the Saraswati-Sindhu Civilization also started fading out!
Vayutuvan
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Vayutuvan »

A_Gupta wrote: It gives me only the title page, says the rest is copyright protected, and I need to be a member of a subscribing institution.
That's odd. I went through our Univ. library portal. May be that's why I got in.

Here is some information about access. May be trying with inCommon might do the trick
Authorization and Authentication
The HTRC will use the inCommon security infrastructure, a common framework for trustworthy shared management of access to on-line resources in support of education and research in the United States that uses the identity management infrastructure of universities. That means that HTRC users will be able to sign in using their university credentials. Nearly all universities in HathiTrust support inCommon. inCommon has a bridge for individuals to secure inCommon identities so access is not restricted to universities.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote: We have to get the the Life of Buddha dated correctly - 1887 BCE - 1807 BCE! Around this time the Saraswati-Sindhu Civilization also started fading out!
Rajesh you may want to look in a different direction:
http://www.jainworld.com/jainbooks/imag ... _OF_JA.htm
I propose in this article to place before the world the result of investigation in comparative religion, in so far as it tends to fix the comparative ages of two of the world's oldest religions, namely, Jainism and Hinduism. I am aware that my views are not very likely to be acceptable to the generality of the readers at present, but I am confident that they shall ultimately prevail. Such is always the case with all new 'things'.

If I were not a Jaina, it would be easier for me to say what I have to say, for in that case I should not be exposed to attacks, vicious and otherwise, on the count of bias and bigotry, in as much as the result of the investigations made by me is the establishment of the greater antiquity of Jainism. Nevertheless, I give my reasons for this conclusion and leave the reader to say what he likes about me and my method.

It is now established as the result of recent research, especially of the finds at Mohenjo-Daro, that Jainism flourished actually long, long before the time of the twenty third Tirthankara, Parsva Nath. The age of the finds at Mohenjo-Daro is probably 5000-7000 years ago in the past. Hinduism also flourished then side by side with Jainism. The question is, which of them is prior in time?

Of the scriptures of Hinduism it is now recognized on all hands that the Rig Veda is the oldest, so that if we are to understand its origin we can only do so with the aid of the Rig Veda, which appears to be the oldest written scripture extant. The language of the Rig Veda is certainly older than the language of any of the Jaina Books, but this may be due to its expression being fixed up, by poetry, before that of any of the Jaina works, which are known to have existed in memory alone at one time. The test of language is therefore, unreliable in this case, though if there was nothing to contradict it, it would carry the point a long way in favor of Hinduism.

But we shall turn to the intrinsic evidence of the oldest Veda. The question is, what was the religion of the people who possessed only the Rig Veda and none of the subsequent accumulations and accretions of scriptural lore now possessed by the Hindus?
Also see Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parshva
Pārśva (Sanskrit: पार्श्वनाथ) (also Parsvanath) was the twenty-third Tirthankara "Ford-Maker" in Jainism (traditionally 877–777 BCE).[1][2][3] He is the earliest Jain leader generally accepted as a historical figure.[4][5][6] Pārśva was a nobleman belonging to the Kshatriya varna.
and more Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishabha_% ... vilization
In Jainism, R̥ṣabha (Sanskrit: ऋषभ "Bull") or Ādinātha (आदिनाथ "Original Lord"), was the first of the 24 Tīrthaṅkaras.
<snip>
Contemporary historians like Ramaprasad Chanda, Vilas Sangave,[7] Heinrich Zimmer,[8] John Marshall, Thomas McEvilley[9] P.R. Deshmukh[10] and Mircea Eliade are of the opinion that there exists some link between Rishabha and Indus valley civilization.

Ramaprasad Chanda, who supervised Indus Valley Civilisation excavations, states [11] that, “Not only the seated deities on some of the Indus seals are in Yoga posture and bear witness to the prevalence of Yoga in the Indus Valley Civilisation in that remote age, the standing deities on the seals also show Kayotsarga (a standing or sitting posture of meditation) position. The Kayotsarga posture is peculiarly Jain. It is a posture not of sitting but of standing. In the Adi Purana Book XV III, the Kayotsarga posture is described in connection with the penance of Rsabha, also known as Vrsabha.”[12] This is the posture in which Rishabha is believed to have entered kevala. This seal can be interpreted in many ways, and authors such as Christopher Key Chappel and Richard Lannoy support the Jain interpretation.[13]

Christopher Key Chappel also notes some other possible links with modern Jainism.[13] Seal 420, unearthed at Mohenjodaro portrays a person with 3 or possibly 4 faces. Jain iconography frequently depicts its tirtahnkaras with four faces, symbolizing their missionary activities in all four directions. This four-faced attribute is also true of many Hindu gods, important among them being Brahma, the chief creator deity.[14] In addition, Depictions of a bull appear repeatedly in the artifacts of the Indus Valley. Lannoy, McEvilly, and Padmanabh Jaini have all suggested that the abundant use of the bull image in the Indus Valley civilization indicates a link with Rsabha, whose companion animal is the bull. The association with bulls, perhaps a reference to masculinity, is also notable in the Vedic Indra and one of modern Hinduism's most popular gods, Shiva.[15]
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ManishH »

matrimc wrote: In any case, the linguists cannot argue away the fact that PIE is a made up language and thus is not falsifiable and thus is not science (of course, this presupposes that one subscribes to Karl Popper.
...
I would like both Manish ji and SN Rajan ji to address the bold'ed part above.
I'm fine if you are skeptical but two points to note:

1. PIE is not a "made up" language. The reconstruction is based on phonetics - the way human mouth determines how some sound changes are uni-directional. If you have a specific objection, illustrate with a specific example.

2. The shape or existence of PIE is not what determines the homeland of IE languages. It's the archaeological evidence that points to the eurasian steppe.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by prahaar »

ManishHji, unless there are markers for multiple intermediate languages (in terms of time) that can be directly derived from using the PIE phonetic reconstruction model (without ANY exceptions), PIE is a madeup/guesstimate language. With N exceptions, it is just empirical and heuristics. Curve matching based on exisiting data set is not a reconstructed language.

Can one make a prose/poetry with PIE at a given date in past, which will match with the language in the said location/time prose archives? I am not aware of any. I am happy to be proved wrong, but claiming that PIE was a living language is a stretch too far.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Virupaksha »

ManishH wrote:
matrimc wrote: In any case, the linguists cannot argue away the fact that PIE is a made up language and thus is not falsifiable and thus is not science (of course, this presupposes that one subscribes to Karl Popper.
...
I would like both Manish ji and SN Rajan ji to address the bold'ed part above.
I'm fine if you are skeptical but two points to note:

1. PIE is not a "made up" language. The reconstruction is based on phonetics - the way human mouth determines how some sound changes are uni-directional. If you have a specific objection, illustrate with a specific example.

2. The shape or existence of PIE is not what determines the homeland of IE languages. It's the archaeological evidence that points to the eurasian steppe.
and where exactly is this archeological evidence with PIE obtained, what are the manuscripts/inscriptions which have this "non made-up" language? After all if it was not made up (in the 20th century by psuedo-guttoral sciences) and exactly nobody is speaking this language nor does anybody have a recollection of this, somebody must have found it somewhere. - unless you believe in the tower of babel nonsense.

Eurasian steppe, where exactly on this whole wide area of this were they found? After all, a tablet/an inscription can be found at only one location.
Image

Are you saying that even with extreme cultural influences like arabic had on the east asia and india itself, there have been absolutely NO bi directional guttoral changes. Are you saying this guttoral changes are the RULE with absolutely no exceptions. Dont give me long winding answers, yes or no only to this point please.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

Some thoughts:

What is the evidence that the Sanskrit of Rig Veda is the oldest Indo European language spoken in India? There were, in India some languages before Rig Vedic Sanskrit (also called Indo-Aryan). Were they Indo-European?

Magadhi and Pali go back a long time. Magadhi, in connection with Jains may well go back to the time of Parshvanath around 800 BC. There were 22 Jain tirtankharas before him but the dates go back several billion years and do not fit in with the world view that we are accustomed to accepting.But Jainism existed before 800 BC and the only known language of the regions was the eastern Indo European languages. I would date them roughly around 1000 BC at a guess if not earlier.

The ancient language of the Jains is suppsed to be "Ardhamagadhi" which is classified as an eastern Indo-Aryan language younger than Rig Vedic sanskrit. Early Jaina texts never used Sanskrit and this fits in with the idea that in the 1000 BC to 800 BC time when the Vedas were being recorded in Punjab the east was using Magadhi language, which at a guess could be declared "younger" than Rig vedic sanskrit of 1200 to 1000 BC.

But this timeline throws up a a paradox. How come an Indo European language was being spoken by the Jains of the east at a time when it is alleged that the Vedas were still being composed in a new branch of Indo European called Rig Vedic Sanskrit (Indo-Aryan) in the west?

Whichever way I look at it it appears to me that some Indo European language was likely widespread over India before 1200 BC and most likely before 1500 BC. This only makes the horse evidence fake. It does not say anything about how and where Indo-European languages came to India. But to my mind there is no proof that Indo European could not have come to India or been in India as early as 10,000 BC.

Witzel keeps talking about "hydronyms" and "toponyms" - names of rivers, water bodies and gegraphical features that do not change evene when a new language comes in. What old toponyms exist in east India that form a substrate to "Indo-European"?

But forget topo and hydronyms. What about words for father, mother, mouth, eye, leg, me, you etc. Those would form even more early and basic words. Surely there must be something in Eastern Indian languages of Bihar and Bengal that have some weird non Indo-European origin words for these? Has anyone discovered any yet? After all Indo European had to spread 2000 km east across the Indian subcontinent.

It is likely that the Rig veda in Punjab dates are wrong. it is likely that indo European itself was in India at a far earlier date. If you discard the horse, manure and Institutional bluff part, an earlier date becomes likely.
Last edited by shiv on 07 Sep 2012 10:22, edited 1 time in total.
shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

What is the earliest attested evidence for PIE? When was the expression PIE coined for the first time. Who coined it?

It is easy to get into word games with linguists and they are usually good at word games.

PIE is the totally hypothetical model language that has been made up by linguists in two ways:
1. They have taken existing languages with known sounds that are thought to be descended from a common ancestry and used the sounds to extrapolate backwards in time to get a proto sound which might plausibly have mutated to the known modern sounds of the present time.
2. They have also, on occasion, used for their reconstruction "sounds" of unkown languages that no longer exist, the "sounds" used for reconstrcution are sometimes based on sounds that were surmised from some nifty decipherment in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

If you simply accept PIE you can say that:
a. Some language like PIE existed at some remote time in the past
b. The european branch of PIE has been reconstructed using European languages
c. The Indian branch (Indo of Indo-European) has been reconstructed using Rig veda chants (living Hindu scholars); Avestan (language no longer spoken) The actual sounds are guessed from Sanskrit, Gujarati and Middle Persian texts; and "Old Persian". Old Persian too is a dead language. No living person has heard it being spoken. No one knows for sure if the alphabet represented exact sounds (like Sanskrit) or approximate and variable sounds (like English). The alphabet itself was mainly Cuneiform in the Behistun inscriptions which were translated by some clever guesswork by people who knew Sanskrit. No one to my knowledge has gone back to the original work done by Rawlinson and others to re validate their guesswork. The century plus old works, liek Griffiths Rig Veda translation remain standard references even today.

So both PIE and its daughter proto-Indo Iranian (PIIr) from which Sanskrit is supposed to have come have been "reconstructed" using guesswork of sounds of at least two long dead, never heard by living humans, languages.

Why do I have a problem with that? The problem is that even Manish ji, let alone Witzel and many others use this proto language built out of guessed sounds from dead and never heard languages to "prove" that X language is older or younger than Sanskrit. This was the proof that Manishji offered to show why one and a half Mitanni words are older than RiG Vedic Sanskrit.

First you make up a a non existent language called Proto-Indo Iranian (PIIr) using guessed sounds from one or more of the languages. Then you use that made up language from partially guessed sounds to judge that some language used in the reconstruction is older or younger. This is circular reasoning at its best. It would be acceptable as hypothesis. Not proof. But prominent people like Witzel and Anthony others use it as proof. They seem unable to see the difference between conjecture, hypothesis and proof. That only shows how badly grounded these people are in scientifc method. And you can be that way and still become prof at Harvard.
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