Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 15 Sep 2012 03:37

Ravi Karumanchiri ji,
I have a problem with your logic of saying we shouldn't use Katrina because Katrina is connected to Infamous American Hurricane which destroyed and killed people. By the same logic, we shouldn't use the word Swastika because Hitler used that symbol and killed millions of Jews.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 15 Sep 2012 04:06

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:If a Rakshak wants to explain why ‘Katrina’ is a really good name, then that’s going to be a better post than practically anything emanating from certain aforementioned ‘members’.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... %27_12.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uye2ORUGjzg/T ... 600/36.jpg

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 15 Sep 2012 04:14

^^^^venug,

Are you saying that "Katrina" is as near-and-dear as the ancient Swastika?
Is the name of some Dutch girl really the best for this usage?

Is 'Katrina' really apropos? I'm not exactly a Francophone, but I do speak French pretty well, and 'Katrina' for a French warplane is like the sound of rusty nails on a blackboard. It sounds wrong.

From what I understand, this name was chosen by one person essentially off-the-cuff........ and it stuck for reasons of clout and 'social copying'. (Forgive me, no aspersions intended; but don't try to pretend that there's some kind of deep emotional investment in the name 'Katrina'. That's ridiculous.)

Clearly, he didn't investigate the etymology. I just did, and "Katrina" is a mis-fit, ethno-linguistically speaking.

On the other hand, just considering the one suggestion I've made (not that it's the only good one, potentially -- I'd like to see other options too); the name 'Kali' is definitely more 'Indian-sounding' than 'Katrina'. More specifically, what the name evokes, the 'spirit' it conjures, I think is quite befitting for a warplane of this type.

Anyways...................... I'm glad we're discussing this instead of............. yuk! (Trying to forget already.)

Yes, I know, Katrina Kaif is quite lovely and I wish she were mine, but that's a whole separate matter!

As a practical consideration, would you really want to go into a battle with Katrina Kaif at your side, or 'Goddess Kali'?
I wouldn't even need to think about it, because Kali would be there, wiping what's left of Katrina off a sharp edge!

That's my kinda gurrrl!

PS: Those Katrina Kaif pics are surprisingly convincing, I must say................ But still, I cannot relent, unless I see more pics, perhaps!

BTW: I just checked-out Katrina Kaif's wiki and it says she's a British citizen who works in India on a visa! (!)

manum · Post by **manum** » 15 Sep 2012 06:41

There is incredible amount of nonsense in here...someone please clear and burn the trash even if its against freedom of speech...

sharma.abhinav · Post by **sharma.abhinav** » 15 Sep 2012 08:38

^^^^venug,

Are you saying that "Katrina" is as near-and-dear as the ancient Swastika?
Is the name of some Dutch girl really the best for this usage?

Is 'Katrina' really apropos? I'm not exactly a Francophone, but I do speak French pretty well, and 'Katrina' for a French warplane is like the sound of rusty nails on a blackboard. It sounds wrong.

From what I understand, this name was chosen by one person essentially off-the-cuff........ and it stuck for reasons of clout and 'social copying'. (Forgive me, no aspersions intended; but don't try to pretend that there's some kind of deep emotional investment in the name 'Katrina'. That's ridiculous.)

Clearly, he didn't investigate the etymology. I just did, and "Katrina" is a mis-fit, ethno-linguistically speaking.

On the other hand, just considering the one suggestion I've made (not that it's the only good one, potentially -- I'd like to see other options too); the name 'Kali' is definitely more 'Indian-sounding' than 'Katrina'. More specifically, what the name evokes, the 'spirit' it conjures, I think is quite befitting for a warplane of this type.

Anyways...................... I'm glad we're discussing this instead of............. yuk! (Trying to forget already.)

Yes, I know, Katrina Kaif is quite lovely and I wish she were mine, but that's a whole separate matter!

As a practical consideration, would you really want to go into a battle with Katrina Kaif at your side, or 'Goddess Kali'?
I wouldn't even need to think about it, because Kali would be there, wiping what's left of Katrina off a sharp edge!

That's my kinda gurrrl!

PS: Those Katrina Kaif pics are surprisingly convincing, I must say................ But still, I cannot relent, unless I see more pics, perhaps!

BTW: I just checked-out Katrina Kaif's wiki and it says she's a British citizen who works in India on a visa! (!)

Common Ravi ji, its just a name, it is there because we feel Raffy's got the curves like Katrina, just like Su-30 MKI got it like Rambha. Why this Kolaveri!

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 15 Sep 2012 09:16

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:Rakshaks,

As a Canadian, I would like to take this opportunity to underscore the fact that not all Americans are alike, and not all Americans are like GeorgeWelch or Septimus P. or many of the ruling coterie in the various organs of the USG; including the DoD and the DoS, and their dark overlords in the "Military-Industrial Comlpex" (which includes pharma/chem, media and agribusinesses). Indeed, many individual Americans are very openminded and forward thinking -- and would readily accept the notion that the IAF might want a non-American aircraft for whatever reason, whether technical or political (both of which have always mattered, IMO, but I'm not the IAF -- don't forget).

Instinctively, many *individual* Americans embrace the concepts of a free and open competition producing innovation and progress. Indeed, in a very real sense, individual Americans are weened on these concepts. 'Fair play offers its own rewards' is a very common message in childrens' stories; and every American-schooled child can recount the (perhaps mythical) story of George Washington owning-up to cutting down a certain beloved cherry tree, proclaiming "I cannot tell a lie..."

In a very real sense, most Americans truly do believe that America is a bastian of fair play and honest competition (that is, until very recently, when the mortgage bubble burst and it was Americans themselves being scrooooooed by the American system). In their heart of hearts, they truly believe their own hype, which is why they can be so extremely intransigent.

[Of course, this is only possible because (almost) none of them really understand that the land was taken through force and acts of *unparalleled genocide* commited against the 'First Nations'; plus approximately 400-millon African slaves, a tidy 'fillip' known as 'operation paperclip', and 60+ years of "Cold War" atrocities committed all over the world, claiming millions upon millions of lives (a few of whom were even Americans in uniform).]

In my direct and ongoing experience; many Americans are very open minded and reasonable, and are worth discussing even the most controversial topics with. Even on points that you might disagree with them; these intelligent sorts of Americans are engaging and enlightenning; and some of the best guidance/correction I have ever received, has come to me by way of contrarian Americans. IMO, every effort should be made to engage with these sorts of people, from where ever in the world they hail, in order to continuously 'exercise' one's own thinking and ideas. After all, competition is a pretty good way to pick a winner.

HOWEVER, please recognize, reasonable Rakshaks, that that is not what is going on here, a lot of the time, particularly when discussing the MMRCA with the likes of the 'GeorgeWelch SH-chatbot' and the extremely under-employed Septimus P. Maybe their intransigence is borne of one mental oversight or failing or weakness or another. Perhaps they're mentally deficient, as some have suggested, or maybe they're nothing but computers running 'chatbots', as I've wondered myself. Whatever the case may be; understand that when you engage with certain people on certain topics, the result is not anything resembling discussion or debate or dialogue. The result is more akin to 'mutual ma$terbation'. Frankly, it always was unseemly, and now it's just downright obnoxious and offensive.

Maybe they truly do feel that "they" were treated unfairly in the MMRCA (even though they weren't). Maybe they never understood that the MMRCA was the IAF's competition, and not their's to control as they'd wished (which truly surprised them). Maybe they thought they could offer an old aircraft and sell it along with some kind of security guarantee intended to counterbalance China (which is not India's objective). Maybe they felt that upon losing, that they had other options than just to 'take it' graciously (which is apparent). Maybe they thought they could employ some 'moral suassion' (using 'agents of influence' in the press, or here on BRF), or coercion, or graft or dirty tricks or sabotage or subversion or blackmail or any number of other things they have ready in their very big and well-worn black bags. Maybe they just don't understand the physics that would relegate a carrier-borne strike aircraft with atrocious wing loading to a losing position in a free and fair competition with delta-winged aircraft enjoying much less wing loading. Maybe they really thought their planes could take-off with a warload from Leh ( ). OR MAYBE concepts like fairness and free competition are thrown-out-the-window when large sums of money, continued industrial dominance, national security or H&D are at stake -- all of which did take a ding, predictably so. There is quite a lot of precedent for the latter.

Whatever the case -- there is no 'maybe' about it -- WRT the MMRCA, GeorgeWelch and Septimus P. aren't worth the keystrokes, and for the life of me, I don't understand why they don't go off in private somewhere and satisfy themselves with more conventional strokes -- using one hand. I'm pretty sure they'd be better at that.

Brilliant, my esteemed colleague and comrade on this forum.

I take my mythical hat off to you, in tribute.

More power to your pen.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 15 Sep 2012 12:13

Ravi rocks. good post and totally representative of my views on George Welch and septimus p.

I used to think higher of George s posts
.I hope he does return to higher posting standards.

best wishes ....

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 15 Sep 2012 13:12

Dear Rakshaks,

I am as Indian as any can possibly get, I have nothing against a Rafale win, I just don't like the all the BS that comes along here about it being fully independent and it being the 'best aircraft' ever made. No doubt it is impressive, saw it last night and was very impressed, she can fly and fly very well.

All I am saying is the Americans do have better kit in terms of avionics and weapons, in a one on one, full-spec teens can hold their own. For the amount of work it does the SH is still one of the most reliable jets ever made. Sure, the Block 2 didn't meet the performance requirements in pure flying and I made my peace with that long time ago, but SH International did have great potential and if it did exist today would be more than a hand full for pretty much every aircraft out there. Block 2 SH can with a mix of EW and weapons like Aim-120D still effectively kill both EF and Rafale. Sadly, weapons and avionics advantages did not please the IAF enough for it make the cut taking into account the US's screwing up with sharing that sensi tech without intrusive agreements.

All in all Rafale is a good aircraft and a good choice given the circumstances, I just think it is now time to have some good US weapons kits, sadly French kit is too expensive for us to order in large volumes which we need to take on both China and Pak at the same time.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 15 Sep 2012 15:09

^^^

Here is a general statement. Not just applicable to MMRCA but all procurement processes. Whatever be the customer's requirements, at the end of the day, he has to choose from what's available. All the requirements go out of the window if there are no products meeting the requirements. They end up choosing the best among what's available. Especially for complex machines like fighter aircrafts, where there are very few products available. This is also seen in other procurements done by India.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Sep 2012 15:37

All defence deal done in India always opt for Best Deal which includes Technical , Economical and Geopolitics since decision and selection criteria are taken at multiple level.

It would be wrong to label Rafale as the best aircraft in the MMRCA competing lot purely on just Technical criteria , I am sure American are ahead in Weapons system , EW ,Radar and some other areas but could have not met all the criteria laid in MMRCA which is much beyond technical one upmanship.

All said and done Rafale is the best deal for India meeting the requirements laid down in MMRCA ,Economic and Political Decision making.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 15 Sep 2012 17:24

^^ Strategic too. French are reliable partners and helped us in our time of need. Nuclear and other strategic things can be part of the package too and Sarko was good at all that with a special cell in the Elysee Palace just to deal with MRCA and other major global tenders

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Sep 2012 18:18

^^^Furthermore.. we need only fine tune american equipments, as their ops and needs are entirely different from ours. For example, net centric needs, we need nothing from american solution other the framework of equipments.. in the sense, that satisfies needs as we did for P8I. We don't need to sign any of those draconian policy and rules set by jackle and hyde regulations from maasan parliament.

It is important to say, we are also driven by policy and not just by technical merits alone. If maasan politics empowers them with policies, why not change our democratic process to accept maasan ways if it benefits us. Learning can happen even from a new born, who can teach us.. this is the pure and true indic culture. so, let us be true to our forms and needs.

Now, let us either close this thread or rename this thread.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 15 Sep 2012 19:27

Septimus P. wrote:Dear Rakshaks,

I am as Indian as any can possibly get, I have nothing against a Rafale win, I just don't like the all the BS that comes along here about it being fully independent and it being the 'best aircraft' ever made. No doubt it is impressive, saw it last night and was very impressed, she can fly and fly very well.

All I am saying is the Americans do have better kit in terms of avionics and weapons, in a one on one, full-spec teens can hold their own. For the amount of work it does the SH is still one of the most reliable jets ever made. Sure, the Block 2 didn't meet the performance requirements in pure flying and I made my peace with that long time ago, but SH International did have great potential and if it did exist today would be more than a hand full for pretty much every aircraft out there. Block 2 SH can with a mix of EW and weapons like Aim-120D still effectively kill both EF and Rafale. Sadly, weapons and avionics advantages did not please the IAF enough for it make the cut taking into account the US's screwing up with sharing that sensi tech without intrusive agreements.

All in all Rafale is a good aircraft and a good choice given the circumstances, I just think it is now time to have some good US weapons kits, sadly French kit is too expensive for us to order in large volumes which we need to take on both China and Pak at the same time.

The SH block2 avionics is certainly advanced and mature but much older than rafale avionics. SH AESA radar dates from 2005 (entry in production) while rafale is a 2012 radar. Given the pace of hardware progress there is no indication that the SH block2 offer the best sensor suite except that it is the most mature one. And the SH still lacks an integrated optical sensor suite...

As for the SH international anyone can come with a mock up and tout superiority. Winning with a baseline version of an aircraft that is going to see service in its country of origin is a stamp of seriousness.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 15 Sep 2012 20:28

IAF chief claimed the US had the best avionics and weapons during the trials. Furthermore, the APG-79 already has a V3 version that is way ahead of the RBE-2, even UAE claimed the RBE-2 couldn't match the Block 60's radar so there is no question of US AESAs being inferior in any way to the RBE-2. True it didn't have a integrated optical sensor suite. It was not any one who came up with a mock bird, it was Boeing, so far they have delivered some truly cutting edge enhancements to the SH. Moreover sooner or later the Block 2 will under go MLU and then all these new tech will make its way into upgraded US navy jets.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 15 Sep 2012 20:33

Let me give a computer analogy. I can buy a CPU from intel, RAM from Corsair, GPU from Nvidia & motherboard from Asus. Unfortunately, we can't buy radar from US, spectra from France, airframe from EADS & TVC from Russia to put together our MMRCA. Let's admit that in the world of airplanes, you have to rely on pre built systems

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Sep 2012 20:55

^It depends if you can be the integrator, and owner of all software and hardware.. meaning, you sub-contract and get your stuff done. long route to gain independence, but least likely matter as many of the strategic components remain not only strategic, but closely guarded secrets.

Example: ToTing for engines and radars.. will be just above screw drivers onlee, and nothing more.

But, we can get some help like Elta radars for LCA or GE engines. They are not going to give you a blue print. This is the reason, I keep harping this ToT is no use.. for r&d, but will help in establishing a good product/production engineering setup. [jobs]

kelesis · Post by **kelesis** » 15 Sep 2012 23:01

Septimus P. wrote:IAF chief claimed the US had the best avionics and weapons during the trials.

Hi Septimus,

Can you provide me with the link to the article quoting the IAF chief?

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 16 Sep 2012 01:24

Septimus P. wrote:IAF chief claimed the US had the best avionics and weapons during the trials. Furthermore, the APG-79 already has a V3 version that is way ahead of the RBE-2, even UAE claimed the RBE-2 couldn't match the Block 60's radar so there is no question of US AESAs being inferior in any way to the RBE-2. True it didn't have a integrated optical sensor suite. It was not any one who came up with a mock bird, it was Boeing, so far they have delivered some truly cutting edge enhancements to the SH. Moreover sooner or later the Block 2 will under go MLU and then all these new tech will make its way into upgraded US navy jets.

How is the APG-79 ahead of the RBE2 AESA which is seven years younger ? Any source about that ? UAE never claimed rafale aesa radar is inferior just that they wanted more range compared to the F16 block 60. It was the general Alain Silvy who disclosed that in 2010 when the rafale AESA was still at prototype stage.

Have you a source for a planned SH MLU ? I can find it for the rafale but never heard of anything serious for the SH from the US MoD.

Also how do you know that the IAF looked purely on aircraft performance rather than systems ? I think you are forgetting that the rafale has a much more comprehensive sensor suite with a brand new AESA, integrated optical sensors (IRST, TV, Laser range finder) & EW that are fully fused.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 16 Sep 2012 02:23

He is simply pulling stuff out of thin air. The ACM can only talk about what was offered and both the teens failed miserably.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Sep 2012 02:47

It is easy to plant a remote program uploaded or even run a remote procedure upon a request on any programmable array [t/rs in this case].. khaan satellites are all over the world.. so, in addition to GPS corrections, khaans can actually make few t/r modules provide continuous data link to satellites, or even perform offensive warfare and counter measures - that includes counter-counter measures, meaning just plainly these t/rs can be programmed to be behaved from remote as well. It is highly plausible... and unkill is very well known for planting bugs, debugs and humbugs. all it takes is obama or romney to press a button to ever nodding MMS, and ask him to back off! or else, all of the khaan items shall fail the guarantee of working, and void any warranties. This includes offensive virus operations.

And, yes APG 79 variants are there, and is an excellent radar and advanced. They have a lead of 10-20 years of radar tech growth, in addition to zero foreign invasion on their policies and procedures... they can import any brains to get anything done for 100 times the price. Are we game? if yes, we can do it too.

bottom: if we are presented with all evil contenders [looking negatively], then we have to choose the lesser one from it, and proceed.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 16 Sep 2012 03:24

^^^^Saik,

EXCELLENT POST

+1

&

sharma.abhinav wrote:Common Ravi ji, its just a name, it is there because we feel Raffy's got the curves like Katrina, just like Su-30 MKI got it like Rambha. Why this Kolaveri!

Just because I prefer this Kolaveri to that one!
You wanna disagree with me there?

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 16 Sep 2012 12:16

How is the APG-79 ahead of the RBE2 AESA which is seven years younger ? Any source about that ? UAE never claimed rafale aesa radar is inferior just that they wanted more range compared to the F16 block 60. It was the general Alain Silvy who disclosed that in 2010 when the rafale AESA was still at prototype stage.

Have you a source for a planned SH MLU ? I can find it for the rafale but never heard of anything serious for the SH from the US MoD.

Also how do you know that the IAF looked purely on aircraft performance rather than systems ? I think you are forgetting that the rafale has a much more comprehensive sensor suite with a brand new AESA, integrated optical sensors (IRST, TV, Laser range finder) & EW that are fully fused.[/quote]

The APG-77 is even older still, it remains the best operational AESA in the world, APG-79 is not too far behind. How is wanting more range from a radar not inferior? An MLU will eventually come for the SH, the Navy is no rush to start it since the oldest SH is still around 3800-4000 hrs. Besides work on some of the upgrades in on going. The growler is the king of EW, now IRST is on a fuel tank soon to be internal, only thing missing is a TV capability internally for now it has the ATFLIR.

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories1068.htm

The Air Chief observed that admittedly, the US had the best of the combat radars, weapons and systems. But then, each of the six contenders had given in writing that they would match the IAF requirements, including those for systems to be sourced from the US.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 16 Sep 2012 15:46

arthuro wrote:How is the APG-79 ahead of the RBE2 AESA which is seven years younger?

Well .. what would you say if I claimed the Captor-E would be technically superior (size apart) to the RBE-2AA because it was 3 or 4 years younger?

Any source about that ? UAE never claimed rafale aesa radar is inferior just that they wanted more range compared to the F16 block 60. It was the general Alain Silvy who disclosed that in 2010 when the rafale AESA was still at prototype stage.

The single most important characteristic of a radar is its range. Then of course you have other features but even there I'd imagine Raytheon products are at least as capable as Thales'.

Have you a source for a planned SH MLU ? I can find it for the rafale but never heard of anything serious for the SH from the US MoD.

Also how do you know that the IAF looked purely on aircraft performance rather than systems ? I think you are forgetting that the rafale has a much more comprehensive sensor suite with a brand new AESA, integrated optical sensors (IRST, TV, Laser range finder) & EW that are fully fused.

A 'mid life' upgrade may be the wrong term given that the aircraft is still a while away from reaching the mid point of its service life. But in general the US military has an unmatched dedication to maintaining its equipment at the highest possible stage of evolution. And the SH program is no exception -

USN developing new Super Hornet upgrades

Improved sensor fusion, improved MMI, brand new IRST pod and a one-of-a-kind Enclosed Weapons Pod. Details about EW capabilities are usually secret but I wouldn't be surprised if the SH's 'Grower-Lite' variant already featured performance comparable or superior to the Rafale.

That said, the airframe's basic limitations will still remain even after the F414 is upgraded. In the transonic flight regimes, there is simply no way it for it to compete with the Rafale let alone the Eurofighter, regardless of what Boeing is promising.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 16 Sep 2012 16:21

As an aside, can I please ask the we stop piling on George Welch.

The Super Hornet provided arguably the best value-for-money of all the aircraft involved in the competition. A pertinent factor given the prevaling economic conditions. Unfortunately for Boeing, the competition was structured such that the pricing arguments did not come into play until the shortlist was released and that the IAF placed a somewhat greater emphasis on the performance of the platform vis-a-vis its avionics that could probably be upgraded/modified to the service's requirements.

These were factors that were known from the RFP stage itself and Boeing just like Lockheed Martin, SAAB and MiG had to balance risk with reward. The expenses involved in flight trials, while not insignificant, were certainly not high enough for a company the size of Boeing to rue its decision to compete for the contract.

So GeorgeWelch is wrong only insofar as his claim that irregularities in the evaluation unfairly put the SH out of contention. So what? Its certainly not enough to justify the vitriol spewed over the last few pages. I've had several heated debates with him, but never felt he was troll. Biased perhaps, but certainly not a troll.

Given that even his most contentious posts are at the very least as interesting as a debate on the merits of Katrina as a suitable nick for the Rafale, the outpouring of scorn may end up as a poor reflection on the forum.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 16 Sep 2012 16:42

The Super Hornet provided arguably the best value-for-money of all the aircraft involved in the competition. A pertinent factor given the prevaling economic conditions. Unfortunately for Boeing, the competition was structured such that the pricing arguments did not come into play until the shortlist was released and that the IAF placed a somewhat greater emphasis on the performance of the platform vis-a-vis its avionics that could probably be upgraded/modified to the service's requirements.

On the contrary, the competition was not really about money. It was mostly about selecting the best aircraft out there. The IAF wanted an aircraft that could last till 2050 & probably beyond. To ensure that kind of longevity, it was imperative to choose an aircraft that would be supported throughout its lifetime. Unfortunately, the American birds would be replaced by F 35 & more money would get diverted there. Contrast this to the Rafale which will be the mainstay of 3 branches (inc nuke deliver). At a time when Indian economy is doing better than the world's, we have to lookout for what is best for us. In that case, USA has been very reluctant to share its secret sauce. We can instead buy a slightly inferior hardware & learn the secrets (ToT) instead of a better one but with less info.

As for George Welch, his equating of a non functioning plane (F 16) to be placed on a plane with an absent radar (Eurofighter) reflects poorly on him. We hope that America (known for customer service) should have realized that a proper functioning plane would have made a positive impression on the customer's mind. The aircraft frames of the American models (F16 & F 18) were clearly inferior to their European parts. While avionics can be change, frames can't. It is a shortcoming that one has to live throughout the aircraft's life. It is much easier to accept one's shortcoming than to blame others for not ignoring it.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 16 Sep 2012 16:57

nakul wrote:We can instead buy a slightly inferior hardware & learn the secrets (ToT) instead of a better one but with less info.

Sorry , again confused on the TOT issue. My last on query on this was replied as something like " no manufacturer will provide the TOT for engine core, single crystal blade, AESA etc ". Now according to you the French will help us in learn the secrets through TOT, which implicitly also implies that the US would not have provided those technologies.
So can we be rest assured that we will get 100% TOT for each and every component on Rafale. For the time being i am ignoring the fact as to whether we have the capability to absorb the TOT or not

member_23657 · Post by **member_23657** » 16 Sep 2012 17:01

^ The MMRCA deal stipulates 60% TOT.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 16 Sep 2012 17:08

^^^^

France has claimed 100% ToT on radar (including source codes). Even if they don't deliver on the promise, it appears much better than American offer of no source codes. As for engine core, Russia still supplies the core for the Su 30 engines built in India. The MMRCA called for a min ToT (not 100%). If France wants to provide more than that (they wanted to win badly), it suits us, right?

Moreover France does not wants binding contracts like EUMA. America would not be too happy to see its tech being carried over to the FGFA, AMCA. France will be providing support for the FGFA. That makes a big difference. Without the freedom to use the tech, we will be relegating ourselves to screwdriver tech only. On a strategic level, this allows us to use the gained tech without harming Indo French ties. This probably outweighs some of the minor concerns.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 16 Sep 2012 17:28

Viv S wrote:As an aside, can I please ask the we stop piling on George Welch.

The Super Hornet provided arguably the best value-for-money of all the aircraft involved in the competition. A pertinent factor given the prevaling economic conditions. Unfortunately for Boeing, the competition was structured such that the pricing arguments did not come into play until the shortlist was released and that the IAF placed a somewhat greater emphasis on the performance of the platform vis-a-vis its avionics that could probably be upgraded/modified to the service's requirements.

These were factors that were known from the RFP stage itself and Boeing just like Lockheed Martin, SAAB and MiG had to balance risk with reward. The expenses involved in flight trials, while not insignificant, were certainly not high enough for a company the size of Boeing to rue its decision to compete for the contract.

So GeorgeWelch is wrong only insofar as his claim that irregularities in the evaluation unfairly put the SH out of contention. So what? Its certainly not enough to justify the vitriol spewed over the last few pages. I've had several heated debates with him, but never felt he was troll. Biased perhaps, but certainly not a troll.

Given that even his most contentious posts are at the very least as interesting as a debate on the merits of Katrina as a suitable nick for the Rafale, the outpouring of scorn may end up as a poor reflection on the forum.

Hear hear. Someone understands what a forum is intended for, reasoned debate between reasonable men (and women, oops!) with room for all to express their opinions even if they don't correspond to our views!!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 16 Sep 2012 17:35

nakul wrote:On the contrary, the competition was not really about money. It was mostly about selecting the best aircraft out there. The IAF wanted an aircraft that could last till 2050 & probably beyond. To ensure that kind of longevity, it was imperative to choose an aircraft that would be supported throughout its lifetime. Unfortunately, the American birds would be replaced by F 35 & more money would get diverted there.

The F-18E/F's first delivery was in 1999 just three years before the Rafale's introduction. And its production will continue till 2015 when the last aircraft is to be delivered, notwithstanding further orders. Its a misconception that the USN is replacing its SHs with F-35Cs. Both aircraft will be supported and upgraded in service through the coming decades, in a manner not unlike the IAF with its similar fleet of the Su-30MKI, MRCA and FGFA.

Contrast this to the Rafale which will be the mainstay of 3 branches (inc nuke deliver). At a time when Indian economy is doing better than the world's, we have to lookout for what is best for us. In that case, USA has been very reluctant to share its secret sauce. We can instead buy a slightly inferior hardware & learn the secrets (ToT) instead of a better one but with less info.

The cutting edge technologies that the US will be truly reluctant to share are primarily a feature on the F-22 and F-35. I'll see if I can dig up the exact quote, but IIRC a Boeing rep was formally quoted saying that, in an unusual move, the US govt and Congress had sanctioned everything the company had requested as far as ToT requirements were concerned.

As for George Welch, his equating of a non functioning plane (F 16) to be placed on a plane with an absent radar (Eurofighter) reflects poorly on him. We hope that America (known for customer service) should have realized that a proper functioning plane would have made a positive impression on the customer's mind. The aircraft frames of the American models (F16 & F 18) were clearly inferior to their European parts. While avionics can be change, frames can't. It is a shortcoming that one has to live throughout the aircraft's life. It is much easier to accept one's shortcoming than to blame others for not ignoring it.

The F-16 is far from non-functional but yes the Eurofighter and Rafale have certain fundamental advantages over the SH that the IAF would not have wanted to pass up. I've made that point myself not only in the two posts on this page but even earlier including in EF v SH debates with GeorgeWelch.

That is not the issue that I was referred to. Point is, Mr Welch has certain opinions that he should be welcome to have, without other members getting riled into a mob-like fury. Whether one agrees with him or not, overall his posts are usually detailed and interesting enough, and contribute well to the diversity of opinion that I imagine the forum would like to foster.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 16 Sep 2012 18:21

Viv S wrote:So GeorgeWelch is wrong only insofar as his claim that irregularities in the evaluation unfairly put the SH out of contention. So what? Its certainly not enough to justify the vitriol spewed over the last few pages. I've had several heated debates with him, but never felt he was troll. Biased perhaps, but certainly not a troll.

Viv S, GW is a big boy, and big boys need to deal with the consequences of abusing other people. GW is essentially saying "You Indians are a bunch of slimy cheats, because if you were not slimy cheats, my SH would have won the MMRCA contract". The forum members are essentially saying "Get lost you lying sore loser and stick the SH where the sun doesn't shine." What's the problem ... vigorous debate conducted and concluded

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 16 Sep 2012 18:33

^^

______________________________________________

Plus if a 60s design which couldn't even take off from Leh with any load, the great SH is just 3 years older then Rafale , in that case we should have gone for Mig 35 which should be counted as the latest of all 6 participants.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 16 Sep 2012 20:01

Viv S wrote:
So GeorgeWelch is wrong only insofar as his claim that irregularities in the evaluation unfairly put the SH out of contention. So what? Its certainly not enough to justify the vitriol spewed over the last few pages. I've had several heated debates with him, but never felt he was troll. Biased perhaps, but certainly not a troll.

wow and you certainly are the one to certify as such

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 16 Sep 2012 20:06

US in the past has given access to source codes to Turkey, Israeli for the F-16/f-15,even the F-35 will have Israeli avionics for their version, so there is no case of withholding TOT and source codes, it would have been the first thing we could have requested, along with dropping of intrusive agreements for a large order and co-development, even if we had to fund these new developments, we automatically get work share and for every SH USN upgrades, we get paid.

The SH is not a 60's design, well even if we do consider it as a older design, the SH has a far more reliable track record than the Rafale any day with not a single loss due to technical failure yet. The mig-35 just couldn't match the others in terms of avionics and Leh, for the rest there would be cases where it must have excelled taking into account, super maneuverability, at high AOA, it still does things others can't manage by a long shot.

In terms of sheer overall flying performance EF and Rafale are indeed at the front, both just had the right mix of avionics and performance, good at flying, decent electronics, so they were down selected. Rafale happened to be cheaper.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Sep 2012 20:38

One has to be very careful when valuation of moolah comparing with requirements, specifications and the offer. It is very dicey to say one is cheaper over the other.. given a set of functions to evaluate, there is no clean weights adapted to throw a towel either this side or the other side.. hence, one can't say, it is cheaper or costlier unless one lists out the proof for it.

OTOH, we could always say, it was selected based on the listed parameters, and based on these set of offers and bids, this happened to be cheaper for the list of selected items, features and services.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Sep 2012 05:08

Septimus,

The Rafale "win", IMHO, encompasses more than the Rafale. Kaveri, the M2K "upgrades" and perhaps even a wink on testing nukes under controlled circumstances. I think it is a politically correct plane. Outside of teh fact that it does jump thru all the hoops and dance the dance.

Just part of the game, for better or worse.

How is the APG-79 ahead of the RBE2 AESA which is seven years younger ?

kit · Post by **kit** » 17 Sep 2012 09:00

Septimus P. wrote:US in the past has given access to source codes to Turkey, Israeli for the F-16/f-15,even the F-35 will have Israeli avionics for their version, so there is no case of withholding TOT and source codes, it would have been the first thing we could have requested, along with dropping of intrusive agreements for a large order and co-development, even if we had to fund these new developments, we automatically get work share and for every SH USN upgrades, we get paid.

The SH is not a 60's design, well even if we do consider it as a older design, the SH has a far more reliable track record than the Rafale any day with not a single loss due to technical failure yet. The mig-35 just couldn't match the others in terms of avionics and Leh, for the rest there would be cases where it must have excelled taking into account, super maneuverability, at high AOA, it still does things others can't manage by a long shot.

In terms of sheer overall flying performance EF and Rafale are indeed at the front, both just had the right mix of avionics and performance, good at flying, decent electronics, so they were down selected. Rafale happened to be cheaper.

India is still not out of the woods as far as US is concerned .kiss moa is just one reason !

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 17 Sep 2012 15:07

Rafale is no doubt a great aircraft, will post some Pics from the weekend, she can dance, no doubt, she is fast and mean. I think with some cutting edge US weapons like CBUs, SDB CLAW, JDAM-ER, JSOW Paveway family , AAGRM, it could be one of the deadliest bird anywhere.

http://www.textrondefense.com/assets/pd ... asheet.pdf

http://www.textrondefense.com/assets/pd ... asheet.pdf

BLU submunition can also go on the JSOW.

I like this clean area Weapon. The coverage of this weapon is incredible. We should also have a pronto order of over 100K Sudharshan kits. This has to be the primary weapon.

We need low cost, very high volume of these weapons. I think we need a follow on order of another 3000 CBU-97SFW with WCMD kits. They are the enemy's worst nightmare, we can obliterate their ground forces.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Sep 2012 18:16

near 47% of Dassault control could be at stake when EADS and BEA merges. There is an indirect khaan control should that happen, but even though it has lesser effect since France holds a .5% hold over others in Dassault, but when push comes to shove, khaans can bring out from somewhere in the hyde corner, some rule to put checker points to us, after such deals happen.

part of the ToTing deal, we have to ensure, payments to the tune of 30% is held as liquidated damages for such khaan indirect controls, should that happen in the future. never know.

kelesis · Post by **kelesis** » 17 Sep 2012 18:46

Saik,

If the merger is authorized by the french state (which is very unlikely to happen), EADS will probably have to sell its stake in Dassault. Actually the EADS members of the Dassault board are named by the French state, the situation is not comfortable for both parties and they have been asking for a solution since a few years. Even if EADS keeps its stake in Dassault, I don't see how the US can directly or indirectly have any control on Dassault's business.

But actually, it seems France will block the deal. They have nothing to win and a lot to loose in this transaction.