Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 20 Sep 2012 01:11

Ignorant noob question why not add chaar strap ons and get big oomph

Like here ( I know this is civilian rocket) we PSLV solid booster add ons no

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Sep 2012 01:32

Mobility, for starters

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Sep 2012 01:52

yuppadi yup.. especially when you think about canister road launchers.. besides the "restricted policy" to not show off our capabilities to hit khaanic ranges, and avoid unnecessary attentions, till we mature our systems.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 20 Sep 2012 02:11

Agni is as it is pencil thin, so adding the strap ons in the first stage doesn't increase its dia much.
Actually on the way to lizard it could do dog leg maneuver and drop the tanks on heads of ISI in pindi chana then on to long march into forbidden kingdom...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Sep 2012 02:23

that would be in the next version.. actually independent re-entries it shall be.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 20 Sep 2012 03:58

Sabyasachi wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:Its a message. 4K km with 1 tonne payload. With a smaller 500 kg pay load the range gets extended covering everything that needs to be hit.
If you mean neighbour up north, then yes.

Halving the payload will only increase its range up to 20%.

Will it compromise damage intended to be inflicted ? With conventional warhead for sure.

20-25% increase in range in this case puts A-4 at nearly 5000 km. While 500 kg is enough for 100-250KT flower petal. Mugambo khush hua...

disha · Post by **disha** » 20 Sep 2012 05:06

pentaiah wrote:Agni is as it is pencil thin, so adding the strap ons in the first stage doesn't increase its dia much.
Actually on the way to lizard it could do dog leg maneuver and drop the tanks on heads of ISI in pindi chana then on to long march into forbidden kingdom...

If you notice the progress of the Agni missiles (including Agni IV), the interstage gap is now covered by a interstage shroud. The reason is for canisterisation, since tremendous pressures are generated and you do not want to weaken or break it and push out the later stages out of the canister.

The same goes for strap ons. the max diameter has to accomodate the straps ons and still when canisterised will leave some gap for gases to escape. Increasing the gas pressure to compensate for pressure loss of gases escaping from the gap may cause further technical complications. Instead, add one more stage (or make it more efficient by using composite motors) etc.

Also if you notice for 1 tonne payload, Agni II - 2000km., Agni-III - 3000 km, Agni IV- 4000 km, and Agni V- 5000 Km. Now somebody sneaks in 1.5 tonne payload for same series what happens? (range increases for 1 tonne!)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Sep 2012 06:57

the next steps are the big steps that will finally seal the robustness of our deterrent:
[1] dummy cansister launch test of A5 from a special land facility in Hyd
[2] full A5 cansister launch starting 2H2013, atleast 3 successful launches needed . this will also seal the TELAR issue - tatra/AL/AMW/tata or something else like MAZ.
[3] cansisterization of the A4 and gradually replacing the older A2/A3 with cansisters of A4 on the rail wagons.
[4] Arihant going out and firing off the K15 a few times
[5] test launch of K4 from pontoons
[6] test launch of K4 from Arihant and 2nd sub
[7] Nirbhay GLCM test
[8] Nirbhay SLCM test, perhaps from Arihant or the Chakra
[9] Mass production of Shourya (500 to start with)
[10] mass production of 100 A5

I expect it will take another 7 yrs until 2020 to get all this checked off and done.

siddharth · Post by **siddharth** » 20 Sep 2012 07:00

A newbee question. Why do all the missile tests take place in fair weather? Why not test a missile in cloudy, windy or rainy conditions? How can we be sure they perform as good as they do in such climatic conditions? I can understand the tech demonstrators, but we can test a few missiles which have already been inducted. You never know what the weather will be like when we actually need to use these weapons.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 20 Sep 2012 08:23

Is the mention of full digital flight control system for the first time? am assuming it improves the vehicle's precision in following the defined trajectory and also to counter the ABMs.

They say this is one of the lightest missile, while the first stage is still maraging steel?

[6] the 2nd sub only needs to do the pop up tests? if Arihant does the proofing of SLBMs until SFC induction.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Sep 2012 09:04

siddharth wrote:A newbee question. Why do all the missile tests take place in fair weather? Why not test a missile in cloudy, windy or rainy conditions? How can we be sure they perform as good as they do in such climatic conditions? I can understand the tech demonstrators, but we can test a few missiles which have already been inducted. You never know what the weather will be like when we actually need to use these weapons.

Its still in development. One wants clean data.

about other conditions, the vehicle would be robustly designed to handle such things. Weather and lightning etc are not the drivers.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Sep 2012 09:36

they can simulate it by spraying the TELAR with heavy water to make it look like drove through a rainstorm, just before firing it.

if you remember one PSLV was fired off during a heavy downpour and it worked fine. so ISRO is not afraid to do it.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 20 Sep 2012 13:13

Actually very little is known about the Indian warheads, however, we know that Prahaar, Brahmos are nuke capable, Shaurya, Sagarika too, we certainly have miniture warheads, I also know that we certainly have a far bigger number of warheads than Pak atleast by to 40% to 50%.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 20 Sep 2012 14:31

siddharth · Post by **siddharth** » 20 Sep 2012 14:45

Singha wrote:they can simulate it by spraying the TELAR with heavy water to make it look like drove through a rainstorm, just before firing it.

if you remember one PSLV was fired off during a heavy downpour and it worked fine. so ISRO is not afraid to do it.

Come to think of it, if DRDO can successfully launch a SLBM, then a little rainstorm shouldn't be a problem

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 20 Sep 2012 15:19

I think Agni-1,2,3,4,5 should all be canisterized asap, Shaurya and Sagarika should be deployed in large numbers, Sagarika should go on board next gen destroyers as well, i think the VLS from Arihant 4 missiles launchers with 3 missiles each should find their way in large sized destroyes, Sagarika with it's range between 700 to 1800 km is the ideal long range tacticle missile meant to take out enemy long range air defence radars, over the horizon sites, critical command centres etc.

We also need orders, If Arihant performs as expected, a follow on order of around 50 subs should be placed asap. I think Arihant is the ideal sub for our needs, they are small, not very expensive if ordered in large numbers and inducted over a period of 10 years.

We can have the following set-up for Arihant, important to have a universal launcher for nirbhay , brahmos 1/2, Sagarika, K-4 and Agni-6 perhaps.

5 * 12 Brahmos 1= 60 missiles (conventional)
5 * 12 Brahmos 2 =60 missiles (conventional)
10 * 12 Nirbhay = 120 missiles (conventional)
10 * 12 Sagarika = 120 missiles (conventional)

30 Arihant class subs for conventional warfare

5 * 4 Agni 6 SLBM (MIRV) = 20 missiles (Nukes)
5 * 12 Sagarika = 60 missiles (nukes)
10 * 4 K4 missiles = 40 missiles (nukes)

20 Arihant class Subs for nuclear warfare.

For the rest we should just order 6 more advanced scorpenes taking the number to 12, these should be used together with the remaining Kilos for hunter killer missions and protecting cbgs.

samverma · Post by **samverma** » 20 Sep 2012 15:52

Septimus P sir,

50 Arihants?? Isn't that too high a figure of one type of nuclear sub? Yes, many nuclear subs are needed but all Arihant...shouldn't we have a dozen or so of this type...stabilize the design aspect as well as the production line and simultaneously start designing/manufacturing a larger sub with a higher missile/torpedo load besides any new technologies that may be invented in the coming years?

samverma · Post by **samverma** » 20 Sep 2012 15:54

Septimus P sir,

My above post was just a question..not intended in any other way...i'm a trainee so please forgive me if i phrased it wrong...Thanks

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 20 Sep 2012 15:57

Arihant class will only have 3 ships. The longest range missile carried by Arihant class is the 3500 km K-4. Moreover, it can only carry 4 of these. To overcome this limitation, the next batch of submarines will be bigger and capable of carrying the 5000 km K-5.

In the meantime, Nirbhay will also become available to us. There is no real reason to cap the no of Nirbhay missiles since it will be air, land, submarine launched. I believe that a majority of the missiles in our inventory will continue to be land launched since the main targets are our neighbors.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 20 Sep 2012 16:07

Septimus P. wrote:we know that Prahaar, Brahmos are nuke capable

can you suggest any link indicating prahar being nuke capable? every link i came across says it has conventional warhead.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 20 Sep 2012 16:55

I think Arihant is a pragmatic design, to have bigger boats is not a problem but they become more expensive and more importantly diffcult to hide. We are well below minimum needs for subs and to begin work on large bommers and to have them ready for full scale combat and induction will take another 20 years. We can't wait till 2030 to have a proper nuke sub fleet. Also sensors improve and bigger boats will sooner or later make for easier targets. Also Arihant with being a compact nuke sub can allow for lower signature and better manuvering in shallow water.

Capping the Arihant to 3 subs is also silly since in the event of a war, Chinese and puki hunter killers will be hunting for these from day one. If it proves itself to be a reliable and capable sub in the sea trials, they should order enough, 50 I believe is a number good enough to counter both China and Pak with overwhelming superiority. with such a fleet we can both defend and attack with ease, without worrying about leaving holes in our defensive net.

To take on china and pose a significant threat to the Chinese, we need quiet, fast subs with enough numbers, swarming attacks on their sub pens, naval bases, long range radars, command centers will need a good sub sleet. The PLAN has enough naval assets to spot destroyers and frigates coming it's way from far off but with subs we can slip past their nets and enter the south china sea from where we can strike at our targets with little detection and complete surprise.

A nuclear sub fleet of 3 is silly,we obviously need atleast 15 times more. We are far away from mastering diesel sub tech and getting to finally build one would take another 10 years. We should stick to what we know, plus we need sub building experience. They are game changers.

A quiet order of 45-50 subs right after Arihant's induction should be done, an order to be full-filled over 10 years, would cost around $50 billion spread over a decade, not bad at all. Moreover, we can always induct new tech on newer blocks, new sonars, new stealthy materials can be used on the same design spread over it's production of 50 subs. We should use the 1 we have a tech demonstrator and use it over time to test new tech and weapons.

A small sub fleet of 12 scorpenes, 10 kilos and 3 arihant is not even good enough for proper confident defence of our coastlines.

Prahaar is capable of carrying conventional warheads, however they will never claim it to be nuke capable but it is. It is a direct counter to the Nasr deployed by Pak.

http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/india-pu ... apability/

Agni 6 (range between 8000-10000km) is being developed to be Arihant capable so, there is no need for boomers, having ICBMs over the range of 10000km (officially stated)

range is not need. We don't have enemies that far out.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 20 Sep 2012 17:12

Septimus P. wrote:I think Agni-1,2,3,4,5 should all be canisterized asap, Shaurya and Sagarika should be deployed in large numbers, Sagarika should go on board next gen destroyers as well, i think the VLS from Arihant 4 missiles launchers with 3 missiles each should find their way in large sized destroyes, Sagarika with it's range between 700 to 1800 km is the ideal long range tacticle missile meant to take out enemy long range air defence radars, over the horizon sites, critical command centres etc.

We also need orders, If Arihant performs as expected, a follow on order of around 50 subs should be placed asap. I think Arihant is the ideal sub for our needs, they are small, not very expensive if ordered in large numbers and inducted over a period of 10 years.

We can have the following set-up for Arihant, important to have a universal launcher for nirbhay , brahmos 1/2, Sagarika, K-4 and Agni-6 perhaps.

5 * 12 Brahmos 1= 60 missiles (conventional)
5 * 12 Brahmos 2 =60 missiles (conventional)
10 * 12 Nirbhay = 120 missiles (conventional)
10 * 12 Sagarika = 120 missiles (conventional)

30 Arihant class subs for conventional warfare

5 * 4 Agni 6 SLBM (MIRV) = 20 missiles (Nukes)
5 * 12 Sagarika = 60 missiles (nukes)
10 * 4 K4 missiles = 40 missiles (nukes)

20 Arihant class Subs for nuclear warfare.

For the rest we should just order 6 more advanced scorpenes taking the number to 12, these should be used together with the remaining Kilos for hunter killer missions and protecting cbgs.

Are you serious?

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 20 Sep 2012 17:13

We are not going for the American/French way of putting a large part of our deterrent on our submarine fleet. A submarine is easy kill once detected. We are going for the Russian/Chinese way of land based missiles dispersed over a large area. A few hundred missiles with as many decoys would make it difficult for any enemy to destroy all our missiles in a first strike.

Our immediate area of interest is our coastline and the Indian Ocean. The former can be taken care of by land based assets since distance is not a problem. I believe that IN is turning its focus on maintaining its hold on Indian Ocean as US slowly eases itself out. They don't want USN to be replaced by any other force in the IOR. For that we are focussing on more surface assets. Submarines will come in habdy for SCS. In that scenario, we are better of building many cheaper subs that can operate for long periods of time. To that end, all conventional subs should slowly turn to AIPs for longer underwater deployment. Moreover Nirbhay would allow us to target coastal targets from a distance of 1000 km.

We need more SLCM (Israel is supposed to have 3000 km Popeye for delivering nukes from Dolphin subs) carrying subs. The current Klub SLCM (300 km) is too short ranged. Nirbhay should come online soon. A few subs armed with Nirbhays & Brahmos will keep the area free of hostilities. Chinese inability to project its power against Japan in littoral waters shows that a lot of ground is to be covered by them if they are to take on well armed opponents. A well armed and protected fleet poses a danger to any territorial Chinese ambitions.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Sep 2012 17:57

>> A quiet order of 45-50 subs right after Arihant's induction should be done, an order to be full-filled over 10 years, would cost around $50 billion spread over a decade,

each such sub would cost not less than $3b, so 50b would only gets us some 15, not 50. and given the construction time of 5-7 yrs we would need to establish facilities to have atleast 5 subs in various stages of construction in parallel, so that after the 1st sub, we get 1-2 every yr like khan does. this is non-negotiable whether we build 15 or 50.

imo a good fleet would be:
15 Soryu type "heavy" SSK in a secondary strike role with nirbhay SLCM, laying mines
15 Scorpene "light" SSK for ASW patrols , safeguarding our sea routes and major operating bases, SF ops,
10 hunter-killer 6500t SSN each with 8xVL-SLCM and 40 weapons in fwd torpedo room - to hunt the enemy capital ships and 2nd strike role on infra targets
5 SSBN (12000t) with 12-14 Mirv SLBMs. 1-2 can always be kept on patrol with maybe a 3rd in times of emergency.
This is far more than what UK and France today can bring to table....they each have around 10 ssn and 5 ssbn only.

and even these 45 boats needs a MASSIVE amt of money and investment and more importantly political cover. total cost would be north of $200b.

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 20 Sep 2012 18:28

Below are the dimensions for the three from Wiki:

----------Klub--------------Nirbhay----------Sagarika
Length----8.22m to 6.2m----6 m-------------10m
Dia-------0.533m-----------0.52m-----------0.74m
Weight---1,300kg-2300kg---1,000kg---------17t

Looks like Nirbhay sits pretty well between theKlub and Sagarika. We already have launchers for both and may be fitting Nirbhay is comparatively easy.

I am thinking of launch possibilities from torpedo tubes, Klub VLS laucnhers on our ships and VLS launchers on Arihant.
So 12 Sagarika can also be 12 Nirbhay or a mix of both.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 20 Sep 2012 18:34

Klub & Nirbhay will be launched from 0.533 m torpedo tubes. These tubes can be found on any sub.

Sagarika (K 15) are launched from VLS on the Arihant. These require specially tubes. The current tubes on the Arihant can accomodate 3 K 15 or 1 K 4. There has not been any indication of Sagarika on ships. They done that with the 250-300 km Dhanush.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 20 Sep 2012 19:03

Sub launched Brahmos is currently vertical only, why not make it possible through torpedo tubes?

The changes might be, one is like a Skhvall with the nose cap of Brhamos releasing gas to create a gas bubble for the booster to fire and second, if the booster is nozzled, sharp vectoring is possible, both get dropped once out of the water in the usual sequence

or use a electric torpedo motor as the first stage behind the booster

The scorpene subs can carry them in nos, today it could be AIP and in a decade could be refitted with thorium reactors for propulsion, not sure where the Brazil's science project is in this regard.

The much smaller Brahmos-2 is coming up in the next 5 years, and might have the same launch mechanism that a sub launched Nirbhay has owing to lower weight

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 20 Sep 2012 20:03

You do know that is a video of the SS-N-16 I hope?

kit · Post by **kit** » 20 Sep 2012 21:26

i am curious now.If India has sub kiloton battle field weapons and megaton city busters why not be a bit more transparent about it. Here even designs for Indian stealth fighters are all over the internet.If India shows some transparency of its nuclear capabilities., then it can have a lot more deterrence than firing missiles.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 20 Sep 2012 22:08

What is there to be transparent when everything is apparent

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Sep 2012 22:13

who need to known known it....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Sep 2012 03:09

kit, mission impossible.. the only way you can know is by the delivery vehicle. that is exactly what the deterrence is. I have a MIRV capable of these spec is good enough for the public (aam).. unless you are trying to be get to be an insider, meaning you will cease to post here.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Sep 2012 03:21

It may be that A-4 has been developed to be the frontline missile to be mounted on our road and rail mobile launchers,with the greatest range to reach most parts of China.Our ATV-1 has yet to be commissioned,will take a few years definitely before an ICBM missile can be tested from one of our SSBNs.Until that time we need to have a "standard" land-based missile to deal with our most dangerous threats,that can also be built in significant numbers.A-4 seems to fit the bill,as it could also have an MIRV payload,or single warhead to increase range to reach Beijing .

If we are able to possess a nuclear sub fleet of around a dozen SSBNs and SSGNs,it would suffice for our needs.There is no need for overkill.The gap we have is that of a dedicated strategic stealth bomber that could also carry part of the triad and lr PGMs armed with conventional warheads as well.Why the IAF have not realised this beats me.The PLAAF have hundreds of CW bombers ,which though rather obsolete,in terms of numbers do pose a threat.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 21 Sep 2012 05:16

How many MIRV's will fit in A-4. It looks like its mean for single MaRV.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Sep 2012 06:56

We need canister launch if we are serious about road and rail deterrents. Rus has mounted cansister icbms in trains for decades now. Its simply we were not getting serious about a fielded deterrent vs demonstrating things.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 21 Sep 2012 07:24

Agni-III missile likely to be test-fired today.

A day after the successful trial of 4000-km range Agni-IV missile, the country is gearing up to witness the first and much-awaited ‘user associate trial’ of 3000-km range Agni-III missile after its first phase production.

The DRDO and the Strategic Forces Command (SFC), a specially raised missile-handling unit of the Indian Army are likely to carry out the test from the Wheeler Island test range off the Odisha coast on Friday.

While preparations for the crucial test has been completed, defence sources said, the test would be carried out under a favourable weather condition. Programme Director of Agni missiles Avinash Chander told ‘The New Indian Express’ that the missile was ready for the user trial.

“We have already carried out three consecutive successful trials of Agni-III in 2007, 2008 and 2010 thus making it full proof and a proven missile. In all three occasions the technologies incorporated in the missile system and software have performed as expected,” he said.

Director General of DRDO and Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister V K Saraswat who had left for Bengaluru after the Agni-IV test to attend a function organised to commemorate the formal receipt of the Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) aircraft, also has arrived here on Thursday.

Agni-IV’s successful launch and Agni-III’s user trial came at a time when a report by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists of the US claimed that India was legging behind those of its putative adversaries Pakistan and China. The defence authorities have however rubbished the report saying the country, which adopts a clear-cut ‘no-first-use’ doctrine, has an active credible nuclear deterrence and well capable of its own defence.

The Agni-III, capable of carrying both conventional and nuclear warheads weighing up to 1.5 tonnes, is 17 metres tall with a two-metre diameter and weighs about 48 tonnes. The missile was reportedly inducted in the armed forces in June 2011.

The maiden test of Agni III on July 9, 2006 had failed though later it has been test fired successfully thrice. It is expected to be the mainstay of India's nuclear deterrence programme when fully operational by providing the country with strategic second-strike capability.

Agni-III is capable of carrying a variety of warheads, including nuclear warheads and can be launched from various platforms giving the country intermediate range ballistic missile firepower and greatly extending its power projection in the region.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Sep 2012 10:09

For an ab initio/clean slate/green field design one can expect one major failure of a major subsystem. The Agni series has been a building block type of missile system with common sub-systems across the series. We see the number of failures are progressively reduced as the series progresses.

Four successful flights would have very high confidence. Only thing we don't know is the testing of the RV at its most stressing points on the re-entry angle and range map.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Sep 2012 10:23

the A3 sounds like precursor tech dev tool for A5 which will be the volume production missile.
A3 might still be kept in service to cart a massive 1 ton crude boosted fission device if we dont have lighter H-bombs in working shape...a kind of insurance policy to not rely totally on h-bomb tested only once (not I am not getting into that debate)

the A4 and Shourya/A1 at low end would take the smaller lower yield warheads cheaper.

imo we need to put everything thats volume deployed into cansisters and master it upto the 50t ICBM level using A5.
if any smaller missiles like A4 or A1 are desired in numbers for a long life, they should also be put in cansisters.

shourya already lives in a pipe.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 21 Sep 2012 10:51

The A-3 seems like a stop gap missile like A-1 was to plug the gap between prithi and Agni-II. I am pretty sure in future the following will happen
1) Prithvi gives way to Brahmos-1/2
2) Agni-I gives way to Shaurya/Sagarika
3) Agni-II gives way to Agni-IV
4) Agni-III gives way to Agni-V

With Brahmos and the rest covering >300 km needs Prahaar, smerch and Pinaka cover the battlefield rocket/arty requirements. The only sore point is the 155mm guns.

. I hope DRDO and OFB deliver on that front.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Sep 2012 11:37

a new rapid fire 105mm gun on a wheeled armoured car type chassis would have its uses too in infantry support direct fire role. same chassis could be used for a wiesel type mortar fire platform. would spare infantry the need to carry lots of spare shipon or CG rounds to clear obstacles.