Discussion on Indian Special Forces

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Jul 2012 06:17

^^^

IMO, it's a good training & knowlege sharing opportunity for IA jawans who do a short stint with the NSG. When they return to their units, they pass on some of the knowledge to fellow jawans.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 02 Jul 2012 06:51

srai wrote:^^^

IMO, it's a good training & knowlege sharing opportunity for IA jawans who do a short stint with the NSG. When they return to their units, they pass on some of the knowledge to fellow jawans.

I agree. IA soldiers from non-SF units also serve in NSG and I am sure they get a lot of valuable training and experience which they otherwise would not get. Let's not get into a "us vs them" war Gaur ji

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 02 Jul 2012 23:03

srai wrote:^^^

IMO, it's a good training & knowlege sharing opportunity for IA jawans who do a short stint with the NSG. When they return to their units, they pass on some of the knowledge to fellow jawans.

True. But with increase in NSG hubs, IMHO IA is being needed to send many more soldiers on deputation than it can afford without compromising its effectiveness in Operational areas. In the end, its not a situation which is healthy for either IA or NSG.

Raja Bose wrote: I agree. IA soldiers from non-SF units also serve in NSG and I am sure they get a lot of valuable training and experience which they otherwise would not get. Let's not get into a "us vs them" war Gaur ji

Boseji, you misunderstood me. Its not "us vs them" mentality. How could that be, when both CMPFs and IA are "us"? I am just of the personal opinion that it is in the best interest of the Nation if the CMPFs and state police police become capable enough to deal with internal CT operations without any help from IA. I believe both IA and CMPFs will greatly benefit if IA is not required for that role.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 15 Jul 2012 19:06

States’ hold on NSG key NCTC proposal

The foremost proposal is to grant power to states to "requisition" the NSG as well as civil and military assistance for counter-terror operations. Now, both these powers are limited to the director of NCTC.

Under the original order, the NCTC was granted the power to requisition the services of the NSG or any other Central special forces. The new proposal envisages that state governments would also be able to place "requisition" for such forces. It is a significant step forward from the existing rule, where states can only request the Centre for NSG or other special forces. The new norm would empower states to "requisition" not only NSG, but also the Marine Commandos of the Navy, Para Commandos of the Army, Garud of the Air Force as well as the Special Frontier Force under the Cabinet Secretariat.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 05 Aug 2012 22:39

US assault rifles that killed Osama to be inducted into Indian Army Special Forces units

New Delhi: American M-4 assault rifles - used by the US Navy SEALS to eliminate Al Qaeda chief Osama Bin Laden - are being inducted into the Indian Army's Special Forces battalions for use in counter terrorists operations in Delhi.

India had recently signed a deal with the US worth several crore Rupees for procuring these M-4 carbine rifles for the Army's eight Special Forces battalions, Army sources told PTI.

These guns have been used extensively by the US Special Forces in operations across Iraq and Afghanistan and are now being inducted into the eight battalions of Army's Special Forces, they said.

The guns were used by the US Navy SEALS to shoot down Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan's Abottabad in Operation Geronimo carried out in May last year.

Sources said the new guns will not be a replacement for the existing inventory of Israeli Tavor-21, Uzi and mini-Uzi rifles but will supplement the armoury.

The Tavor-21s were also inducted only a few years ago into the SF battalions which were using the AK-47s till then. A host of new capabilities are being provided to the Army's Special Forces.

The Parachute Regiment has ten battalions under it and eight of them have been trained as Special Forces, which are supposed to carry out counter-terrorist operations during peacetime and sabotage enemy installations beyond enemy lines during wars.

The Special Forces battalions include the 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 10 and 21 para units, which are deployed in different sectors of the country and have also been given responsibility to handle any 26/11 type attacks if they occur near their area of deployment.

The Army wants to increase the number of Special Forces troops to more than 10 battalions with around 700 men in each.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Aug 2012 23:05

^^^Slight correction....we have total of 11 battalions under Parachute Regiment. And of these, 3 are the line Para Infantry Battalions. Rest are SF.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 06 Aug 2012 00:44

What's so great about the M4 compared to the INSAS version they made for the SF?

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 06 Aug 2012 09:47

^^ is there any INSAS version as such apart from the prototype.....?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Aug 2012 12:27

So now we have to import Nato 5.56*45 as our 5.56 *45 ammo won't work in these guns?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Aug 2012 12:49

Tavor21 imo looks like a bulky piece of work, Uzis are fine for inhouse fighting and hiding under coats but lack range and weight. AK-anything is bulky and heavy.
the fine sweet spot for Para-SF is prolly the M4 / Steyr type weapon?

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 06 Aug 2012 13:42

Would be nice to know which version, M-4 is such a loose term, HK416, BEAR Elite, Bushmaster, Reminton, Barrett, Colt all have M-4 based carbines. Not so sure if we are buying the original Colt M-4.

However, best versions are from HK, BEAR and Bushmaster perhaps. Whatever we buy, they certainly will have a lot of attachment options, Trijicon battery free Reflex and ACOG sights come to mind.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Aug 2012 13:52

its in this wide range of ecosystem accessories that our OFB efforts come up short. like apple vs playbook.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Aug 2012 14:08

shyamd wrote:What's so great about the M4 compared to the INSAS version they made for the SF?

I was given to understand the the INSAS's carbine variant had issues with noise, muzzle flash and recoil. The M4 on the other hand has been in production for nearly 20 years. Its a good balance of refinement and ruggedness while still being cost effective. Most importantly it can be heavily customized while an INSAS variant is long way from featuring something as basic as a silencer.

More curious is the Para-SF/Marcos acquisition of the TAR-21. Most special forces use a carbine as part of their standard kit and not a full barrel assault rifle. Even the employment of bullpup design is unusual. The British SAS/SBS use the Diemaco C8 instead of the standard SA80 while the Australian SAS use the M4 in lieu of the Steyr AUG. And even assuming that the SF had settled on the Tavor family, I'd imagine the obvious choice would have been the MTAR-21 with perhaps a small complement of GTAR-21s.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Aug 2012 22:16

One of the reasons we are going for carbine for special forces is easy to use in Tight spaces, but then in J&K most of troops prefer the AK-47 for COIN close quarter combat due to its stoping power, wouldn't that apply to spec forces also.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Aug 2012 22:20

maybe thats why TAR-21 was taken and not MTAR-21. our SF units see the most action in J&K forests not urban cqb areas which the police dominate.so the range of a proper rifle would be useful.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 06 Aug 2012 22:48

Interesting ... Thanks for the replies

member_19805 · Post by **member_19805** » 28 Sep 2012 00:30

KrishnaK wrote:http://www.linkedin.com/in/bhushan1829 - peeps posting about their paracdo/SG stints on linkedin. what has this world come to

Hey what's wrong with that...folks got to move on with their lives once they quit the force.
He is a highly decorated officer....who joined the Para SF very early,if I recollect it was in his 1st yr of service.....and spent the next 20 plus there

Cheers

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 28 Sep 2012 10:15

Hope this isn't OT....

With the impending induction of the INS Arihant, a relatively-small, incredibly stealthy submarine that is particularly well-suited to litoral waters....... I am sure that part of the planning going forward from here would be the development and training and deployment of an IN version of "Navy Seals".

Has any of this made it into the press?
Any news/thoughts on this?

(If there have been prior posts in this thread on that topic, kindly post links or give time stamps.)

Thanks,

RK

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Sep 2012 10:19

I am sure that part of the planning going forward from here would be the development and training and deployment of an IN version of "Navy Seals".

Well, isnt that what the MARCOS is?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 28 Sep 2012 10:21

I think he meant more like training of MARCOS to deploy from subs.

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Sep 2012 10:39

^^ I thought MARCOs also does that from existing subs too?

From Wiki:

MARCOS can be launched from ships, aircraft and submarines in full battle gear.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 28 Sep 2012 10:41

American M-4 assault rifles - used by the US Navy SEALS to eliminate Al Qaeda chief Osama Bin Laden - are being inducted into the Indian Army's Special Forces battalions for use in counter terrorists operations in Delhi.

India had recently signed a deal with the US worth several crore Rupees for procuring these M-4 carbine rifles for the Army's eight Special Forces battalions, Army sources told PTI.

See only VVIPs need be protected by this special weapon...
In case of India its not assault but defensive weapon, while US troops kill the terrorist we protect our VVIPs

Second, we have to import again crores of rupees.... paisa bano is the motto...
even the cartridge and other paraphernalia, we dont even reverse engineer like PRC....
If I am not wrong even AK-47/56 bullets are imported but not made in India ( last time Bulgaria/Romania got the order )

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 29 Sep 2012 09:41

Not related Indian Special Forces, but Video no should miss. A MUST WATCH FOR EVERYONE !!!

Read the description to know happened to the Marine.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 29 Sep 2012 09:45

^^^^Post that in the Multimedia thread - like you said, it has nothing to do with Indian Special Forces.

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 29 Sep 2012 09:48

Raja Bose wrote:^^^^Post that in the Multimedia thread - like you said, it has nothing to do with Indian Special Forces.

Alright sir, Done

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 02 Oct 2012 00:58

Trailer from a French movie released last year - 'Forces Spéciales'. Haven't seen it yet but apparently its about a group of naval commandos involved a hostage rescue attempt in Afghanistan. Given that it was made on a budget of $10 million (Rs 50 crore), at least visually its impressive.

With respect to the discussion we were having on the last page about the IA's selection of the TAR-21, its curious that the characters depicted are equipped with an M4 variants as well instead of the standard bullpup FAMAS. While one might have been able to chalk it off to the M4's greater flexibility in terms of customization, if not for the fact that the French special forces like their British and Australian counterparts were fielding the CAR-15, long before Picatinny rails became NATO standard.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... M4-Carbine
Makes one wonder if conventional designs are inherently more suitable for special operations than a bullpup designs.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 02 Oct 2012 01:07

"No army in the world goes in for such an expensive and sophisticated weapon," says a general. "It will add to a soldier's burden and increase logistic nightmare. Multi-calibre weapons are usually supplied only to specialist units like commandos."

From: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/bill ... 21665.html

sum · Post by **sum** » 10 Oct 2012 11:08

We seem to be pretty primitive in anti-hijacking drills etc going by this report:
Alerts trigger requests for NSG sky marshals on Gulf flights

Terror alerts from intelligence agencies have prompted airlines to seek sky marshals on flights to and from the Gulf countries, and the National Security Guard (NSG) is being asked to help out.

The NSG, which already provides sky marshals for flights originating from India to SAARC countries, looks set to change its manual on dealing with a hijack situation or an act of terror.

“There are several intelligence inputs about terror-related threats to flights from Gulf countries. Airlines and intelligence agencies have been pressing for sky marshals on vulnerable routes,” a senior official of the home ministry said.

To acquire better skills, NSG officers have sought permission from the ministry to train sky marshals with the GIGN (National Gendarmerie Intervention Group), a special operations unit of the French armed forces.

The NSG also plans to buy a discarded Boeing or an Airbus in which it can provide real-time training to commandos.

“We have an assembled aircraft which we built on our own. We have been training on this aircraft for the last 20 years at our Manesar training centre. We now want a real aircraft to train our men. In all these years, there have been several modifications to aircraft bodies, so we have to change our training model,” an officer said.

Same aircraft for 20 years??

The focus is also on a communication system through which sky marshals can interact. “A communication system has to be evolved which will help two sky marshals deployed on an aircraft to alert each other in case of a suspicious person on board. The system has to be such that it does not interfere with the navigation system of the aircraft,” the officer said.

Strange that all this hasnt been evolved till now

The NSG has also obtained para motor gliding sets for its men to navigate in difficult and inhospitable areas.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 10 Oct 2012 11:13

The "aircraft" NSG had in Manesar (at least the last time I saw it) was a primitive concrete and cement mockup of an aircraft. They would do demos on it during raising day for netas etc. NSG did train on real aircraft in Palam but didn't have any at their base. After the initial publicity when they were formed, they were allowed to stagnate till after 26/11. But knowing our baboo(n)s, they will probably get another round of step-motherly treatment soon.

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Oct 2012 17:44

Ah, the joys of being in Desh where you get to see news like:
Mumbai NSG bldng develops cracks; commandos forced to exit

In a setback to operational preparedness of National Security Guard commandos based in Mumbai, the counter-terror unit has been forced to abandon its newly built concrete premises as cracks were found in the structure, rendering it unsafe for use.

A squad of 241 'black cat' troopers and support staff, deployed at the newly created hub in the western metropolis to enable the commandos to take swift counter-terror and counter-hijack missions, has been left with not choice but to occupy 'semi-permanent and pre-fabricated' accommodation in the same complex, officials said.

The Mumbai NSG hub is located in Marol in suburban Andheri on a 23-acre land given by the Maharashtra [ Images ] government for stationing the crack commandos.

"The commandos are back to the square one as the building has been declared unsafe for living following the appearance of big cracks. They are now living in semi-permanent structures even as they have to stay continuously alert to undertake any operation anytime," they said.

The building, which has developed cracks, was meant for housing, training and other operational requirements of NSG commandos. The facility was inaugurated in February this year by then Home Minister P Chidambaram [ Images ], three years after the hub was conceived in the aftermath of the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks [ Images ] of 2008.

The NSG headquarters in Mumbai, according to the officials, has now rushed to Mumbai a team of engineers drawn from IIT-Roorkee, architectural experts and force officials to study the 'big cracks' that developed soon after its inauguration earlier this year.

Meanwhile, MKN blasts the NSG ( and Chidu) at the NSG lecture about dilution of standards:
4 NSG hubs will dilute capability: Narayanan

West Bengal Governor M K Narayanan and former national security adviser has found fault with the creation of four National Security Guards (NSG) hubs, brainchild of erstwhile Home minister P Chidambaram.

Describing the idea as archaic, Narayanan said the hubs would dilute the capability of the anti-terror force. “It is a major mistake to have four hubs. At the most, it could have been two hubs. You can reach anywhere in India within two hours,” he said.

Delivering the first NSG raising day lecture on Friday, the governor said: “Strength is not in numbers but in getting the bravest of the brave personnel. It is better being a lean, mean, mobile and operationally agile force. I am concerned about the current emphasis on increasing the size and numbers of the NSG. I also have reservations about the establishment of four regional hubs. The NSG is an elite special force intended to meet a specific situation and not intended to confront the normal law and order situation.”

Narayanan was also the director of the Intelligence Bureau. “Its strength does not lie in numbers. Its uniqueness lies in the fact that it consists of the bravest of the brave personnel, of great virtue and ability, specially trained for undertaking the most difficult tasks. Increasing the number of NSG men, to my mind, is bound to dilute both quality and capability of the force,” he said.

The NSG should be different from other paramilitary forces. The commandos should have expert knowledge on all terror groups like the Lashkar, Maoists and militant outfits operating in the northeastern states. “The NSG should also have its own air capability.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2012 19:52

NSG might be able to get a mothballed KF A321 soon. some of them have been grounded for months and gradually cannibalized to keep others flying like nose radome is gone and a plastic sheet taped in place.
the interior should still be ok for exercises. the engine can be sold off (if they are not already sold).

alliance air also operates some really old 737-200 which might be hived off.

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 15 Oct 2012 03:17

Hahhahaha... @Singha good one!

The NSG can not just get one but a A-320 for each hub as the nationalised banks own the mothballed Kingfisher aircraft. In fact, there might even be a few left over to use as IAF VIP transports.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Oct 2012 07:43

I had a KF plane in this condition even late last yr on tarmac of delhi airport
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/imag ... Dxl33ZCR5R

there are also various boneyards and rust buckets flying here and there outside india. one of the air hostess training schools actually uses the fuselage of such a retired bird in India.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Oct 2012 09:19

NSG shifts 900 commandos from VIP security to anti-terror ops

NSG has shifted around 900 of its commandos rendering VIP security duties for training in specialist counter-terror operations as part of its original charter.

The commando force, for the first time in many years, has de-inducted these 'black cats' from one of its three VIP security units - the '11 Special Rangers Group (SRG)' - from its existing duties.

The formations of the National Security Guard (NSG) are segregated into five units, two Special Action Groups (SAGs) manned by officers and jawans from the Army and three SRGs comprising personnel from para-military forces.

"One unit has been de-inducted from rendering VIP security duties. They will now train to perform counter-terror tasks on the lines of the SAG units. Both the Army and paramilitary components will now be able to perform the mandated charter of the force which is to tackle terror and hijack challenges," an official said.

As per the current charter of the force, each of the two SAGs (51 and 52) is tasked for counter-terror and counter- hijack operations respectively, while the SRGs (11,12 and 13) are used to render logistical support to the SAGs during operations and are deployed for guarding high-risk VIPs/VVIPs. Each of these units has around 900 personnel each.

The NSG, according to sources, has been able to accomplish the de-induction of the large number of commandos as after a long time it is guarding the least number of 15 VVIPs/VIPs.

The force has decided to use this opportunity to return to its original charter of performing counter-terror, counter- hijack, hostage rescue and sky-marshaling duties onboard aircrafts.

The commandos of the SRG unit will now be given extensive training in counter-terror operations by the Force Commander and IG (Training), both Brigadier and Major General rank officials of the NSG based at its garrison at Manesar in Gurgaon near here.
The plan, according to sources, is to raise the de-inducted squad by next year and once the training is done the commandos of this new unit would only perform combat-terror operations.

"Considering NSG's expansion to the new hubs and keeping in mind the emerging trends in terrorism, the force needs more strength of commandos to undertake counter-terror operations," a senior NSG official had said when the new blueprint for such a change was being drafted.

NSG commanders, according to the blueprint, foresee an event where simultaneous attacks could be launched at multiple centres in the country and then the commandos will have to be rushed in different directions.

"The 26/11 Mumbai attack involved some 400 commandos in three days. Considering we have multiple terror hits at one go, we need to have a good number of fighting commandos and some in the reserves to replace them," they had said.

The force also expects that with central paramilitary forces like CRPF, CISF and ITBP increasingly taking the load of VIP security, it could, in some more time, cull out the 12 SRG in a similar fashion to be deployed for counter-terror operations.

The forces' charter says the primary role of NSG is "to combat terrorism in whatever form it may assume in areas where activity of terrorists assumes serious proportions, and the state police and other Central police forces cannot cope up with the situation.

"The NSG is a force especially equipped and trained to deal with specific situations and is therefore, to be used only in exceptional situations. The force is not designed to undertake the functions of state police forces or other paramilitary forces of the Union of India."

Surprising that just 15 VIPs require 2 SRG companies!

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 16 Oct 2012 10:42

sum wrote:Surprising that just 15 VIPs require 2 SRG companies!

it should be in 3 shifts. considering 4 guards per VIP makes 60 at any given time. so 180 required for 3 shifts. its nearly 2 companies if one company is of 100 men.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Oct 2012 11:25

^^ Well, it says each company is 900 men, if i read it right since he mentions de-inducting 11 SRG frees up 900 men.

Thats why was surprised a the huge number.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 16 Oct 2012 12:04

sum wrote:^^ Well, it says each company is 900 men, if i read it right since he mentions de-inducting 11 SRG frees up 900 men.

Thats why was surprised a the huge number.

just did some wiki search on security categories in india. it says a z+ security squad consist of 36 personnel. and a z level has 22. so considering 15 vips having z+ makes 540 straightaway. now add up few z, y type. number 900 seems possible.

wig · Post by **wig** » 22 Oct 2012 10:28

sky marshals to be equipped with dum dum bullets

Sky marshals, deployed on civilian aircraft to counter hijack or hostage situations, have been armed with modern 'dum dum' bullets that burst inside the body of an attacker instead of passing through and hitting any passenger or puncturing the plane's body.

The bullets, whose peculiar name originated from the first such ammunition developed by the British near the 'Dum Dum' military base in Kolkata in pre-independent India, are authorised to be fired only by special forces commandos the world over to avoid collateral damage in such an operation.

This type of ammunition is prohibited for any other use under an international convention.

The country's specialised counter-terror and counter- hijack commando force, the NSG, has decided to include this ammunition in its armoury following 2008 Mumbai terror attacks where it had to undertake close-quarter combat in populated areas like 5-star hotels.

Sources said these bullets, which are being imported, are made to disintegrate inside the body of the attacker and result in either killing or severely immobilising him.

"The bullets have been imported from a friendly country," the sources said without disclosing the name of the country citing security reasons.

The National Security Guard (NSG) deploys a specific number of sky marshals on-board aircraft flying on select routes and is the federal contingency response force for any terrorist or hostage like crisis .

The 'black cat' commandos are now equipped to use these bullets both for counter-hijack and counter-terror operations and their standard weapons like MP5 assault rifles and Glock pistols are compatible with it.

Experts said these bullets prevent collateral damage as unlike normal bullet, they do not escape out of the attacker's body or punch a hole in an airborne aircraft which can cause a disaster.

"A sky marshal or a commando is trained to be a sharp marksman. Despite his hitting the terrorist accurately, there is a fear that a civilian present next to him may get hit or the aeroplane suffers damage.

"The special bullets give the commandos an edge and confidence to operate better," special forces (SF) experts said.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/

wig · Post by **wig** » 22 Oct 2012 10:30

duplicate post . sorry!

sum · Post by **sum** » 22 Oct 2012 11:51

Now women 'black cats' for special operations

In a first for country's elite counter-terror force NSG, a squad of woman 'black cat' commandos have been trained for deployment in specialist operations like hostage situations and VIP security. The woman, dressed in black combat overalls worn by commandos, displayed their skills in sharp shooting and conducting special assault attacks during the NSG raising day at the forces' garrison here on Tuesday.

Union Home Minister Sushil Kumar Shinde and the top brass of country's security were clearly impressed to see the dexterity of these armed woman who 'slithered' down from a Mi-17 helicopter along with male commandos and took charge of a hostage rescue situation at a demonstration by the force. "I am amazed by their display of combat and strength," Shinde said after he witnessed the demonstration and congratulated NSG chief Subhash Joshi for training the women commandos.

The NSG has a small team of 25 woman 'black cats' at present in its ranks and they have been trained in firing high-calibre assault weapons, unarmed combat and commando survival skills. NSG DG Joshi, however, refrained to disclose the exact role that these woman combatants will render in the force but said all options were open with regard to deploying them either in VIP security duties or for specific counter-terror operations.