Indian Naval Discussion

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 12 Oct 2012 09:52

When the good admiral says P-28's are 95% indigenous is it because it has no AShM to speak off? The only missiles it seems to carry are 16 Barak's.

It would be good if Pipavav, L&T and ABG start making naval vessels.

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Oct 2012 10:12

SaiK wrote:http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19702
nice interview..

and real good read.

IIRC, he was PD of ATV all these days.

Would have been fun if few more tit-bits on the ATV were also thrown in!

mody · Post by **mody** » 12 Oct 2012 13:16

Any news about the Mine sweeper deal that we were supposed to sign with South Korea?
There was news a while back about IN choosing the minesweeper vessels being offered by South Korea, but there hasn't been any confirmation or further news about the same.

Our minesweeper fleet is completely obsolete and in urgent need of replacement.

As for the MDL-pipavav JV, I would not really keep my fingers crossed.
Knowing the kind of company Pipavav shipyard, I would not have any kind of expectations from them.
Sure they own the largest shipyard in India and have tremendous nature gifted facilities, but hardly any expertise. Nor the management seemed to inclined to operate a world class shipyard.

They have a huge order book (some orders cancelled over the last year though), but hardly the kind of execution that one would expect. Initially Punj Lloyd had taken a stake for about 250 crs. However they sold off the stake after two years and moved on.

For the longest time there was talk of Pipavav taking a strategic partner, a foreign shipyard to give it the required expertise and technology. All the names from mitsubishi to Hyundai were mentioned as potential partners. Nothing happened. Instead the debt at the shipyard has ballooned and almost 90% of the shares owned by the management are pledged.

My company has an order for 1 particular item from them for 6 vessels. The order was supposed to be completed by December 2011. Till date they have managed to take a equipment for only 2 vessels, with no indications, as to when they will manage to complete the rest of the vessels.
They have a huge outstanding balance of payments to be made to suppliers and vendors and are hardly able to make payments.

Then there was talk of them forming a JV with a russian yard and transferring the line to manufacture the Talvar class frigates in India. Offcourse nothing happened. The the company goes around and changes its name to Pipavav Defense systems and forms a JV with MDL. This is all designed to make money and make sure that the orders keep flowing through MDL only and other private shipyards or foreign shipyards do not get any orders.

Anyone can go through the financial and other details about Pipavav and will definitely conclude that the shipyard is being run very unprofessionally and that the focus of the management is not really in running and operating a world class shipyard, which can start competing with the best in the world over the next decade or so, but to to somehow milk the fact that they own this huge facility and make money off of that.

-JMT. Disclosure: I do not own any shares of pipavav and the business dealing I have is very small.

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Oct 2012 13:37

Anyone can go through the financial and other details about Pipavav and will definitely conclude that the shipyard is being run very unprofessionally and that the focus of the management is not really in running and operating a world class shipyard, which can start competing with the best in the world over the next decade or so, but to to somehow milk the fact that they own this huge facility and make money off of that.

Yes, seems it was in pretty grim shape with no salaries paid to most of the top brass ( almost all ex-IN).

Heard this from a very close Chaiwallah

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 12 Oct 2012 15:09

mody wrote: The the company goes around and changes its name to Pipavav Defense systems and forms a JV with MDL. This is all designed to make money and make sure that the orders keep flowing through MDL only and other private shipyards or foreign shipyards do not get any orders.

Anyone can go through the financial and other details about Pipavav and will definitely conclude that the shipyard is being run very unprofessionally and that the focus of the management is not really in running and operating a world class shipyard, which can start competing with the best in the world over the next decade or so, but to to somehow milk the fact that they own this huge facility and make money off of that.

Last heard, the ex-chariman of MDL is sitting on the board of Pipavav.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Oct 2012 19:15

here is a nice film with glimpses inside the E2 hawkeye - cramped, but effective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3dVuNHX ... re=related

John · Post by **John** » 12 Oct 2012 19:32

Bheeshma wrote:When the good admiral says P-28's are 95% indigenous is it because it has no AShM to speak off? The only missiles it seems to carry are 16 Barak's.

Not sure i understand your point but Brahmos along with L&T launchers are considered indigenous. It also hints that vessel carries Ak-630 and Rpk-8 that are now locally built.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 12 Oct 2012 19:52

Thanks. I was just wondering how P-28 has 95% indigenous content while P-17 etc only have 60% odd. I can see the radar system being different along with propulsion.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 12 Oct 2012 20:59

John wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:When the good admiral says P-28's are 95% indigenous is it because it has no AShM to speak off? The only missiles it seems to carry are 16 Barak's.
Not sure i understand your point but Brahmos along with L&T launchers are considered indigenous. It also hints that vessel carries Ak-630 and Rpk-8 that are now locally built.

Are the CIWS all made under license or we can make as we wish (Like Panda)?

malli · Post by **malli** » 12 Oct 2012 22:31

no system or sub system is or can be totally indigenous. as capitalism is competition without discipline, socialism is Marxism without discipline and communism is Marxism with discipline. we are still policy wise a deeply socialist military industrial complex that has absolutely no incentive for innovation or productivity. sure, we have some impressive capabilities but these have no cost accounting and still lag behind the erstwhile USSR both in productivity, innovation and the ability to run the economy under.
we cant make navigational radars but our esteemed defence correspondents celebrate AEW radars that no one knows will work or not, or if they work on which collaboration are they the ******** child of.
as with everything else in my country the bogey of indigenisation is nothing but a ruse to loot through the means of PSU's.

screw PPP, we make the most expensive defence hardware in the world indegenously......
and the only reason for that is our PSU's.

malli · Post by **malli** » 12 Oct 2012 22:42

a clarification.
i am a capitalist, i.e. a champion of capitalism and free enterprise.
my earlier post didn't actually directly reflect that.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 12 Oct 2012 22:50

^^^

Corruption is secular & cuts across party, religious, economic & military lines. It can rear its head whichever system is being run. You can be a superpower whether you are capitalist (USA) or communist (USSR). China & India can be used for the same comparison as well. At the end of the day, all armies, navies & air forces are socialist in nature, run by govt. Capitalism does not work or mercenaries would be better than regular soldiers. In fact one only has to see the MIC devoring USA's economy day by day.

DRDO has done wonders for what it is getting. HAL has built a few helicopters on its own. Private industry should lighten the load off the PSUs but improvement will happen when there is less corruption. Today a sarkari babu takes his cut, tomorrow a suited booted MBA will take his. The enemy is corruption, not capitalism, socialism, & other isms.

/OT

malli · Post by **malli** » 12 Oct 2012 22:59

dear nakul,
i agree that corruption is universal. i have a problem with the extent of it. somehow i feel that you just don't get what i am trying to say. a private enterprise will not hit his own bottom line or top line or whatever. It will still try to be competitive depending on the environment. can you say the same thing about the public sector??
i am sorry but you have not answered the fundamental question?
Is our PSU dominated MIC competitive???

about US and its MIC,,, they are still the leaders isnt it????

malli · Post by **malli** » 12 Oct 2012 23:09

'Today a sarkari babu takes his cut, tomorrow a suited booted MBA will take his. The enemy is corruption, not capitalism, socialism, & other isms.'

"really,,,,,the essence is that the MBA can and will be prosecuted by a babu but in our present system a babu can only be prosecuted by another of his batch mates so you take the option."

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 12 Oct 2012 23:12

Replied at http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1351223

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Oct 2012 23:47

mody wrote:Any news about the Mine sweeper deal that we were supposed to sign with South Korea?
There was news a while back about IN choosing the minesweeper vessels being offered by South Korea, but there hasn't been any confirmation or further news about the same.

Our minesweeper fleet is completely obsolete and in urgent need of replacement.

As for the MDL-pipavav JV, I would not really keep my fingers crossed.
Knowing the kind of company Pipavav shipyard, I would not have any kind of expectations from them.
Sure they own the largest shipyard in India and have tremendous nature gifted facilities, but hardly any expertise. Nor the management seemed to inclined to operate a world class shipyard.

They have a huge order book (some orders cancelled over the last year though), but hardly the kind of execution that one would expect. Initially Punj Lloyd had taken a stake for about 250 crs. However they sold off the stake after two years and moved on.

For the longest time there was talk of Pipavav taking a strategic partner, a foreign shipyard to give it the required expertise and technology. All the names from mitsubishi to Hyundai were mentioned as potential partners. Nothing happened. Instead the debt at the shipyard has ballooned and almost 90% of the shares owned by the management are pledged.

My company has an order for 1 particular item from them for 6 vessels. The order was supposed to be completed by December 2011. Till date they have managed to take a equipment for only 2 vessels, with no indications, as to when they will manage to complete the rest of the vessels.
They have a huge outstanding balance of payments to be made to suppliers and vendors and are hardly able to make payments.

Then there was talk of them forming a JV with a russian yard and transferring the line to manufacture the Talvar class frigates in India. Offcourse nothing happened. The the company goes around and changes its name to Pipavav Defense systems and forms a JV with MDL. This is all designed to make money and make sure that the orders keep flowing through MDL only and other private shipyards or foreign shipyards do not get any orders.

Anyone can go through the financial and other details about Pipavav and will definitely conclude that the shipyard is being run very unprofessionally and that the focus of the management is not really in running and operating a world class shipyard, which can start competing with the best in the world over the next decade or so, but to to somehow milk the fact that they own this huge facility and make money off of that.

-JMT. Disclosure: I do not own any shares of pipavav and the business dealing I have is very small.

Maybe Philip would be the right person to answer you. He and a few others believe that just handing over warship building activities to a private player will automatically solve all ills.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Oct 2012 01:06

^^^As far as I know, nothig was signed with SoKo, it is not even shown as pipelin by GSL.

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Oct 2012 02:15

Bheeshma wrote:When the good admiral says P-28's are 95% indigenous is it because it has no AShM to speak off? The only missiles it seems to carry are 16 Barak's.

Generally speaking weapons are usually not taken into consideration when making such an observation with regards to a platform. The powerplant and associated machinery are the major imported items there.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Oct 2012 07:05

Look,the problems plaguing the state PSU yards are well know.lack of space and modern infrastructure.Technology too,as a recent retd. Adm. said,no modular shipbuilding being done.With the current backlog of deliveries,it is essential to rope in pvt. yards and see how they fare,giving them orders which they can handle.L&T is very professional and have been heavily involved in the ATV project,why can't they be given orders for ships and subs too ? MDL has a dog-in-the-manger attitude and wants to eat the whole buffet itself and has experienced acute indigestion! Let the pvt. players perform upon whioch future orders will be given.Otherwise we will still have to import major warships like carriers to frigates to minesweepers.

BrahMos to test anti-ship variant from submarine platform

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/brahmos-to-t ... 204-3.html

The Indian Air Force will also use the weapon, from an upgraded batch of 42 Sukhoi Su-30MKI strike fighters it is expected to order later this year, Russia's Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said earlier. "The missile had a range of 300 kilometres, and will be vertically-launched by a gas generator in its launch container, which will eject the weapon by gas pressure, after which it will reach Mach two," he said.

BrahMos can fly as low as 30 feet (10 m) or attack its target from a high angle, combined with supersonic speed and evasive maneuvering. BrahMos can carry a conventional warhead of up to 300 kg (660 lbs). Earlier this week the Indian Navy successfully test-fired a highly-manoeuvrable version of the 290-km range BrahMos supersoniccruise missile from a warship off the Goa coast.

The missile was fired without a warhead, hit the target ship after performing intricate manoeuvres. BrahMos is a stealth supersonic cruise missile that can be launched from submarines, ships, aircraft or land. It is a joint venture between India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Russia's NPO Mashinostroeyenia who have together formed BrahMos Aerospace

Which are the 10 Brahmos equipped vessels?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Oct 2012 11:15

^^^ Philip Saar, to my best of knowledge, three Delhi class, three Shivalik class, Rajput class and now Teg all have Brahmos, some have incline launchers - Delhi and some VLS
Edited: three instead of two Shivaliks

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Oct 2012 11:18

Two more improved Talwars, Project 15a destroyers, 15B and 17A will all sport Brahmos VLS. They are designed to be universal launchers, meaning they can be fitted with Nirbhay too.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 13 Oct 2012 11:20

Is there any submarine in the Indian Navy that can be used to test Brahmos? Arihant is one with a VLS but its availablity for tests is unknown.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 13 Oct 2012 11:35

^^^

With respect I am afraid that is incorrect. The Shivaliks have Klubs and the Delhi's have Urans. Only Rajput, Ranvijay, Ranvir and Teg have Brahmos. The Delhi class vessels will get the Brahmos during their MLUs which have been delayed for ages because the induction of the 15As have been delayed for ages.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 13 Oct 2012 12:07

May I narrate an incident which gives an insight into how our PSU/GOI system works. I have been very general in details to protect identities. Earlier this year a naval officer was assigned to do some acceptance tests on critical systems on the Kolkatta. The procedures are well laid out and documented between the IN, MDL and the vendors, in this case a leading PSU. There were glaring and mission critical discrepancies between the laid down and the contractually agreed specifications and the delivered systems. This officer was pressurised to sign off on them. After rounds and rounds of discussions he stuck to his guns and refused. He started getting calls from 'all sorts of people from the defence ministry and even politicians'. He says, 'I was shocked. When you pass out of NDA etc you never even dream of such things. What have we come to?'. Anyway he was removed from the assignment and another 'more reasonable' officer was deputed to sign off. Thankfully he is a man of integrity and also refused and came out with a longer list of discrepancies.

mody · Post by **mody** » 13 Oct 2012 14:30

Some news with regards to the minesweepers:

http://www.defencenow.com/news/731/indi ... korea.html

If the contract is signed this year, the first vessel will arrive by 2017.

INS chakra would be a candidate for testing the sub-launched Brahmos.
The launch would be through torpedo tubes and not VLS though.

The YouTube video posted earlier about Russian anti-ship cruise missiles, says at the end that
the russians are planning to replace all Granit missiles with Brahmos on the Oscar class subs, as per of their overhaul.
Considering that so far they have not installed brahmos on any platforms and given the nature and profile of the Oscar class subs, replacing Granit with Brahmos seems dubious. It may be true only if the true range of Brahmos can actually be comparable to that of Granit or if the russians are going to add a more fuel or bigger solid booster to increase the range to Brahmos to be same as that of Granit.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 13 Oct 2012 14:57

Brahmos missile's range has been recently revealed to be up to 500 km. That should be acceptable to the Russian Navy. They can also add a bigger fuel fraction if required. If they build the missiles in Russia, they will be able to make these modifications for themselves.

Finally IN will get its wish of torpedo tube launched Brahmos. That should allow more missiles to be carried onboard. I suppose the 650 mm tubes will be utilised for this purpose. They should retain this for all future subs as future Nirbhay variants of longer range would require the additional space.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Oct 2012 16:31

mody wrote:Some news with regards to the minesweepers:

http://www.defencenow.com/news/731/indi ... korea.html

If the contract is signed this year, the first vessel will arrive by 2017.

.

What is the reason this purchase cant be done as a JV with an Indian Pvt yard?

John · Post by **John** » 13 Oct 2012 20:30

nakul wrote:Brahmos missile's range has been recently revealed to be up to 500 km. That should be acceptable to the Russian Navy. They can also add a bigger fuel fraction if required. If they build the missiles in Russia, they will be able to make these modifications for themselves.

Once again the 500 km figure is likely due to confusion with original range for Onyx but in Hi-Lo flight path Brahmos range is around 300 km. Any missile you can vastly increase the range if you reduce the terminal phase (increase the intercept chance) heck even styx missile with few adjustments had range of close to 200 km, so lets leave at that.

Onyx was to replace Granit (remember its original range was on par with Granit but the engine was never developed) and likely so it is no surprise the Russians are replacing them with Brahmos. It is lot cheaper to maintain and Granit are Near end of life.

negi wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:When the good admiral says P-28's are 95% indigenous is it because it has no AShM to speak off? The only missiles it seems to carry are 16 Barak's.
Generally speaking weapons are usually not taken into consideration when making such an observation with regards to a platform. The powerplant and associated machinery are the major imported items there.

I thought they were back when Trishul failed to materialize it was noted that replacing them with Barak increased non indigenous content on Brahmaputra frigates. As for ak-630 IIRC they are now license produced here.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 13 Oct 2012 20:36

^^^

The earlier 290 km was for hi lo flight. The equivalent official figures for lo lo flight were 120 km. Everyone knows it was just a placeholder, not the real value. Even the Black Shaheen uses a similar number of 250+ km but both violate the MTCR, no doubts about that. Brahmos is based on Onyx so they are not going to lose anything by replacing it. The real wonder weapons will be Brahmos 2 & Zircon S.

John · Post by **John** » 13 Oct 2012 20:50

nakul wrote:. Brahmos is based on Onyx so they are not going to lose anything by replacing it. The real wonder weapons will be Brahmos 2 & Zircon S.

Onyx as it stands is similar to Brahmos (same modified moskit ramjet engine, design) but it lacks improved seeker, land attack capabilities etc (i believe Vietnam is the only user of this missile-exp designation Yakhont). Russia will procure Brahmos instead due to standing agreements when JV was formed. Russia has no choice but to replace Granit which as i mentioned are NEOL and even though they had impressive range they were slower than Brahmos, are quite bulky and more expensive to maintain. IIRC they can carry 14 8 VLS Brahmos/Klub missile which is pretty big improvement. IMO Brahmos 2 is likely the original engine envisioned for Onyx missile with few design changes as well.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Oct 2012 20:56

The reality is no one has seen Onyx or have pictures of the system there are just export version which are widely advertised i.e Yakhont and Brahmos , the DM just mentioned that Onyx was tested recently

It could easily be that Onyx is a longer missile with more powerful engine giving it longer legs ... much like Kalbir is a different beast when it comes to range compared to export model Klub or the typical Rusian torpedoes fired from 533 mm TT are a meter longer with more powerful engine which are used to gain higher range compared to what their export model cousins are

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Oct 2012 22:39

Pratyush wrote:What is the reason this purchase cant be done as a JV with an Indian Pvt yard?

This deal is a sop to SoKo, nothing more...

kit · Post by **kit** » 14 Oct 2012 03:48

for better 'collaborative' deals to come ..

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Oct 2012 15:34

This has to be the most foolish reason for giving the contract to the Koreans. Indian yards are dieing for orders. And who gets this order, a south Korean yard.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 14 Oct 2012 19:13

Pratyush wrote:This has to be the most foolish reason for giving the contract to the Koreans. Indian yards are dieing for orders. And who gets this order, a south Korean yard.

I am not against giving this order to an Indian yard, but which yard has the experience to build one? Even in this del, the first two to be built in SoKo and next six in GSL

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 14 Oct 2012 20:01

Given how urgently the Navy need MCMVs, the only choice was to have the first two of class built abroad. Also the SoKo vendor was L1, the mine hunting gear however, is not of SoKo origin. The remainder of the ships will be built by GSL.

It's important to remeber that it will be at least a decade before the Pvt yards are able to churn out complex warships. I draw your attention to the fiasco with the CG's PCVs as well as problems with some of the hulls for the Navy's and CG's OPVs which were subcontracted out. The incremental approach by letting them graduate via OPVs and CTS is the right approach IMHO.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 14 Oct 2012 20:32

With modular construction technique coming up, once a central design authority has laid out exact specifications, what stops private companies with less technical expertise and capital funding to churn out sub modules instead of trying to get them do the whole warship which will be a bigger learning curve

The integration of the modules and critical portions can be carried out by larger ship yards which have the experience.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 15 Oct 2012 13:11

Just heard that a Navy Chetak,IN 405 ,crashed in Goa today morning.
All 3 crew killed

RIP

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Oct 2012 13:23

Sad news ......RIP brothers

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Oct 2012 13:44

^^^

RIP guys,