Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

vina · Post by **vina** » 12 Sep 2012 10:46

The awful distance was one of the worst things about living in the Bay Area. Going to California from India was (and still is) like traveling to a different planet.

If you really care so much about flight times, rather than fly one of the longest routes (emirates), you should fly the shortest.. The shortest time will be one stop at an East Asian hub and directly to a major city. That means , HK/Seoul/Thailand . HK would be best I think. Problem with Singapore Airlines is that it becomes a 2 stop business , with a stop in HK and Singapore and a long layover at Singapore before going out to India.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 12 Sep 2012 11:10

Suraj wrote:Gr than even the longest 'regular' flight in service, which runs between two major financial centers with high-yield business traffic.

^^^ Vina and Suraj,

I wonder why in -flight refueling is not in vogue for these long distance flights. How about filling up the plane for enough fuel till Europe, and instead of landing, just fill it up in mid air for the remainder of the journey to America?

Are there any case studies on this?

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 12 Sep 2012 11:13

Emirates total flight time is about 22 hours (4 hours to DXB + stopover + 15 hours to SFO). Korean is about 21 hours. Cathay is also 21 hours or so. I don't really see a difference. What makes you think Emirates is significantly longer than the others? They have a long DXB-SFO leg, but the leg to DXB from India is really short.

I've never done Singapore for India-US.

vina · Post by **vina** » 12 Sep 2012 12:29

Abhijeet wrote:Emirates total flight time is about 22 hours (4 hours to DXB + stopover + 15 hours to SFO). Korean is about 21 hours. Cathay is also 21 hours or so. I don't really see a difference. What makes you think Emirates is significantly longer than the others? They have a long DXB-SFO leg, but the leg to DXB from India is really short.

Yes. You are right, I just didn't realize just how close DXB to India.

I've never done Singapore for India-US.

Done that most number of times for India-US, a total PITA , with a LOOONG 10 to 11 hr layover at Singapore.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 12 Sep 2012 13:13

The Great Goa Rip-off

Take a look at some of the fares: a GoAir direct flight that leaves Delhi on 22 December is for Rs 19,887, one way. If you return by the same airline on, say, 2 January, the lowest price for a one-way ticket is Rs 19,669. In other words, a round trip by a low-cost airline would leave you poorer by some Rs 40,000. And these rates are for bookings in August. In certain seasons, a Delhi-London or a Delhi-Frankfurt ticket would cost you less. A round trip on the same dates from the capital to Bangalore (virtually the same flying time) would cost Rs 10,714 on GoAir. Return air tickets to Colombo — with an extra hour of flying time — for the same dates come for Rs 19,316.

Similarly, if you fly in and out of Delhi/North around Diwali or Srinagar around Eid, airline fares are exorbitant. The same happens when coveted sporting events are on; for instance, prices of air tickets to Chandigarh at the time of the World Cup semi-finals or to Mumbai during the World Cup final went through the roof.

Airline CEOs and officials have some stock replies to these questions. A senior Jet official, to whom I sent a query on email in an attempt to understand the airfare dynamics, said, “This is the peak of peaks. The forecasting algorithm would have allocated less seats to the lower fare buckets. The seats in the lowest buckets will get snapped up pretty fast.”

I find this bucket argument flawed, especially since no one knows how many seats are offered in which bucket. For all one knows, there could hardly be any seats reserved in the lower buckets. In fact, airlines do not tell anyone, including the DGCA, how many seats are offered in which bucket.
A second argument they use is that if the fares are within the band they have filed with the DGCA, nobody has the right to object; only if fares break through the band ceilings does the body have the right to interfere.

Again, this argument does not cut ice. Should something be considered sacrosanct simply because it has been filed with the DGCA?

This tendency to price tickets as high as possible during times when you know that the demand is at a peak, also defies one of the main principles of ticket pricing: which is that the earlier you book, the cheaper is the price of the ticket.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 12 Sep 2012 13:41

In America, this news article would be shouted down as socialist. The companies should be free to decide the prices. Let the market economics prevail. I don't know whether this serious enough for anyone to question things. We see similar price rises in fruits during festive seasons. Why shouldn't airlines earn their Diwali bonus?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 12 Sep 2012 14:27

For what it's worth, US airline tickets before deregulation in the late 1970s was pretty much like what they're proposing, instead of the market and yield management dynamically affecting fares.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Sep 2012 02:45

vina wrote:
I've never done Singapore for India-US.
Done that most number of times for India-US, a total PITA , with a LOOONG 10 to 11 hr layover at Singapore.

Singapore airlines now flies via Seoul (between US west coast and Singapore) I think. The layovers aren't long but you require two halts to reach India. Cathay Pacific and Korean Air seem to be the best with a single halt in HK and Seoul respectively. Problem with CP is that the layover in HK is usually very short which means you miss the connecting flight if the previous one is even a little late.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 14 Sep 2012 18:30

vina wrote: Done that most number of times for India-US, a total PITA , with a LOOONG 10 to 11 hr layover at Singapore.

Hmm... I did that from SFO to BLR with stops with in HKG and SNG but layover in SNG was about 4 hours.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Sep 2012 07:33

Aircraft grounded after tractor hits the ose of the a/c
This type of accident is very common at the Chennai airport.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Sep 2012 08:47

the shortest great circle route from India to SFO is probably via hong kong / southern china. singapore is too much south and Soko/Japan too much north unless perhaps one wants to reach vancouver, alaska, seattle or great lakes area.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Sep 2012 17:14

^^ Not true. It is because you look at the mercator projection.

The great circle is over the pole. So, BOM-ICN-SFO is shorter than BOM-HKG-SFO. Northier, the better.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Sep 2012 06:58

Ok . but nobody seems interested in such a route directly from india to usa though russia has opened some airlines.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 28 Sep 2012 16:43

The little hills to the north, and the little friendly country beyond that is the problem. Still, you should be able to route to Kabul and then go north.

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 05 Oct 2012 14:22

FWIW clicky
Old article more than a year, probably discussed to death. its about the Mangalore air crash. how metal scavengers who looted the crash site, led to investigators getting less than required parts for reconstruction for detailed investigation, finally the author concludes that authorities investigation is shoddy.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Oct 2012 21:19

SSridhar wrote:Aircraft grounded after tractor hits the ose of the a/c
This type of accident is very common at the Chennai airport.

Actually, this is a common accident at ALL Indian airports.

This is what happens when lowly paid and lowly educated workers are used.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Oct 2012 21:31

^^^

No that's not true. This is what happens when you Don't get your DL correctly.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Oct 2012 08:48

Pratyush wrote:^^^

No that's not true. This is what happens when you Don't get your DL correctly.

Negative.

There is always a second driver's permit issued at all airports to drive air side. This is done after extensive tests. I have such a permit. In spite of all this and the verification of the original DL, stupid accidents continue to happen

Many drivers are contract employees and are oftentimes sozzled. Their employers more often than not, make them drive for two different companies during different shifts on the same day. We do checks at the beginning of every shift to catch such sozzled buggers and we catch many of them. Heck, even Captains come to work sozzled

In foreign airlines abroad, the engineers handle the push back tractors as a matter of routine. There is a greater sense of responsibility and accountability associated with this. In India, the engineers think it beneath their dignity to do this very important job.

A fired contract driver in India will surface the very same evening, driving at the same airport for a different contractor.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Oct 2012 08:05

AI flight cancelled after being hit by vehicle
When I read the headline, I hoped that this time around at least it would be like the common occurrence at some other airport.

Chennai, Oct 08: A Jeddah-bound Air India flight carrying over 400 passengers was cancelled after it suffered damage when a vehicle hit it.

The incident occurred this morning when a tractor carrying passengers’ luggage hit the aeroplane on its side, following which the flight was cancelled, airport sources said.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Oct 2012 08:41

In 4th such incident in 3 months, aircraft grounded after tow bar of trolley pierces outer cowling of engine

Chennai: Air India’s Jeddah-bound Boeing 747 aircraft was grounded at the Chennai airport on Monday, after the tow bar of a trolley pierced the outer cowling of the engine while the aircraft was being towed from the remote parking bay.

Airport Director H.S. Suresh said around 8 a.m. the aircraft was towed from parking bay 30 to the contact bay. The tow tractor driver failed to notice the trolley tow bar kept at a 90 degree elevation near bay 31. It hit the outer cowling of the first engine on the left side of the aircraft and pierced it.

A senior Airports Authority of India (AAI) official said trolleys, belonging to a private ground handling agency, were not supposed to be left near Bay 31. Whenever the trolleys were detached from a tractor, the drivers used to put the tow bar on the ground. In this case the driver left it in a standing position, resulting in the accident.

The trolleys were brought to attend to a Sri Lankan airways flight expected sometime later in the morning.

It was the lack of apron discipline among ground handling agencies and failure on the part of AAI to strictly monitor the movement of trolleys and other vehicles in the operational area that led to accidents of this kind, according to the official.

The presence of too many ground handling agencies was also a reason for accidents, resulting in serious damages to aircraft.

This was the fourth incident in the last three months at the airport in which an aircraft had been seriously damaged, the official said.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Oct 2012 14:25

chetak wrote: Negative.
SNIP..........

A fired contract driver in India will surface the very same evening, driving at the same airport for a different contractor.

My comment was tong in cheek. But you have painted a frightening picture in my head. The question in general is why do these people / pilots turn up for work in a drunken state.

Don't they know that they are playing with the lives of hundreds of passengers.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 10 Oct 2012 19:00

Pratyush wrote:
chetak wrote: Negative.
SNIP..........

A fired contract driver in India will surface the very same evening, driving at the same airport for a different contractor.
My comment was tong in cheek. But you have painted a frightening picture in my head. The question in general is why do these people / pilots turn up for work in a drunken state.

Don't they know that they are playing with the lives of hundreds of passengers.

Pilots---Most of them are spoilt sons of rich parents.

Responsibility does not sit easy on their pampered shoulders. Having gotten used to a privlleged life, they think that rules are for others onlee.

Drivers-- couldn't care less.

BTW, the female pilots are far more responsible.

Cabin crew sometimes freak out on vodka and get caught.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 15 Oct 2012 07:27

today, in essence, J.R.D. Tata marked the birth & commencement of the civil aviation industry in India

flew from Karachi to Ahmadabad->Bombay with a packet of mail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bthr07lwgeY

Unparalleled tragic injustice to thwart their plans of re-starting their own pvt airline.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 17 Oct 2012 05:02

has anyone flown Turkish air to desh??

from Dulles??

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 17 Oct 2012 20:11

A friend of mine did Turkish from ORD to Dilli , and he did not complain about it.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Oct 2012 07:13

Thanks Bade

this will go via Istanbul

someone told me their seats are meant for small asses

Is your friend SDRE??

I am TFDRE onlee

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 18 Oct 2012 07:23

He is a TDRE sardar onlee

in the thin mold, but a widely traveling type. Istanbul airport has good eye candy too for time pass !

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Oct 2012 08:59

food will likely be better than the northern eu meat n potatoes types.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Oct 2012 17:38

thanks Bade

somehow I end up with gorgeous woman when SHQ is travellign with me

Go figure

now YP singh goes on Sharad pawar

we need more IAS\IPS whistleblowers

they surely know deep secrets

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 19 Oct 2012 12:23

SSridhar wrote: The incident occurred this morning when a tractor carrying passengers’ luggage hit the aeroplane on its side, following which the flight was cancelled, airport sources said.

Driver must have forgotten how long a tail he was wearing..

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 23 Oct 2012 22:57

Air India pilot threw note for help on tarmac: Crew members

New Delhi: The SOS sounded by an Air India pilot at the Thiruvanthapuram airport last week, prompting a hijack scare, will be investigated by three different agencies.

The Kerala police, the Bureau of Civil Aviation Security, and the regulatory body for airlines, the DGCA will all study what prompted Captain Rupali Waghmare to hit the emergency button on Friday. In a complaint to the local police, she has said that a group of passengers " barricaded the aircraft and cockpit and did not allow anyone to enter or leave for 5 hours. Myself and my co-captain were separately threatened to be killed." (Read: Pilot's letter to Kerala top cop)

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Oct 2012 08:58

pgbhat wrote:Air India pilot threw note for help on tarmac: Crew members

Generally, when an a/c is delayed, there is no information forthcoming in India either for the reason for the delay or the ETA/ETD. This is especially appalling when the passengers have already suffered a delay of several hours at one airport and suffer another delay at another airport and they are not informed either as to exactly what was happening or served food and refreshments.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 24 Oct 2012 10:22

SSridhar wrote:Generally, when an a/c is delayed, there is no information forthcoming in India either for the reason for the delay or the ETA/ETD.

I guess there were multiple point of failures here. Air India or Air India Express are not known for any good hospitality or service to passengers. How this air lines runs the show has been debated here and else where umpteen number of times.

That being said, the passengers on the flight over-reacted!! And I am sure this "over reaction" came in only when the flight entered their own home grounds. The flight had got delayed in Abu Dhabhi for 3 hours. None of these people made a fuss about it. Why? Because they knew that if they try their Kerala commie tactics UAE police would make them do frog jumps all across the tarmac. There were reports that the pilot had exaggerated the threat. But looks like a few passengers did enter the cockpit, and stopped the crew from leaving the flight. And the cabin crew and the ground crew are sticking to their guns and have not changed their version of events.

I am sure that for many passengers in the air-craft the pilot was a "glorified KSRTC bus driver", the air hostesses are "glorified house maids", and they are the true blue Maharajahs. So with this attitude no wonder they thought that can bully or threaten the pilots in a hope that the pilot would just get frustrated, start the flight and take off to Kochi. Just like a KSRTC bus leaving the bus station, when the conductor gives a double bell

.

Denying the passengers a comfortable place to sit, and not providing the food and water was really bad. But if the passengers themselves were hostile, I dont think any one would want to provide more food and water to them.

Mean while a "Facebook War" has been started on this topic. Cartoons, poor jokes etc. are the order of the day. Vayalar Ravi at the Centre Govt. also is being abused. The folks who entered the cockpit are now considered to be martyrs. Some folks say that Keralites in the Gelf should boycott IA and AI. Some other Mallus add that, they have every right to do so but IA and AI come up with fare discounts and the same Mallu gang would then opt for IA or AI

.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Oct 2012 15:30

I agree, every time I took a flight from Gulf to India I notice Indians who were only too willing to follow lines and ques while getting into the plane want to flout it at the Indian immigration, this shows basic disrespect to Indian laws and the feeling they can get away with it.

Notice the IM wife who got arrested in SA, she was bitching about Indian law and went to Supreme Court asking Indian agencies but kept completly quiet about Saudis?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Oct 2012 19:58

simple question -- flying the same a/c, same routes, same bands of staff pay, why did Kingfisher crater while Jet/Indigo/Spicejet are supposedly healthy?
did these airlines somehow have a lesser expense model than KF or are they also in trouble but not in deep red like KF?

even their domestic lending banks would be the same set.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 25 Oct 2012 10:42

BTW, Air India once again takes the Kerala bound passengers for a ride. The Dhamam->Kozhikode->Kochi flight gets a change of plan at the last moment. The last leg to Kochi is cancelled

. But the passengers have accepted the offer to be taken to Kochi by bus.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2012 15:10

what is the problem ? is it lack of nav aids in all the three major Kerala airports or lack of pilots trained upto Cat3x levels?

I thought Air india was the only airline with a high density of Cat-3x pilots while pvt airlines had not invested for it?

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 25 Oct 2012 15:42

Singha wrote:simple question -- flying the same a/c, same routes, same bands of staff pay, why did Kingfisher crater while Jet/Indigo/Spicejet are supposedly healthy?

That's a really good question. I think Kingfisher started off with ideas of pampering customers with individual TVs and free meals. They also put a lot of emphasis on their stewardess training programs and probably paid staff a bit better than other airlines. So their cost structure was probably a bit higher.

However, I don't see how those things would lead to thousands of crores of additional expenses. There must be other large factors that caused it to be so under water.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 25 Oct 2012 16:50

Singha wrote:what is the problem ? is it lack of nav aids in all the three major Kerala airports or lack of pilots trained upto Cat3x levels?

I guess it should be this CAT III level standards. Even Kochi only has Cat-II Navigational aids. CIAL says that the only time Kochi may have fogs (and thus poor visibility) is between November and end of December. In all other parts of the year the weather is all bright and sunny. So they dont want to put in funds for an expensive navigational aid like CAT-III. I guess New Delhi Airport does have CAT-III, mainly because of the chances of having fog being very high.

Abhijeet wrote:They also put a lot of emphasis on their stewardess training programs and probably paid staff a bit better than other airlines

Bangalore Mirror had reported another sad story day before yesterday. King Fisher cabin crew had been asked to deposit INR 50,000 for training and another INR 25,000 for their uniform. So I guess King Fisher neatly made some money there as well. Now these folks dont get paid, and their deposits have also gone.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2012 18:29

I wonder if the buyout of deccan was entirely on banks loans with no equity dilution by mallya?