Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 19 Oct 2012 07:15

There is a big difference between TSP.Unkil, Russia, Beijing commies or whoever that is damaging India versus our own 'leaders' doing so, consciously such as commies or unconsciously such as Pranabda as R-man would allege. And that is that the former are competitors, you may even call enemies. They are supposed to do that and we are supposed to try do that to them. The latter are not, at least not by definition...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Oct 2012 07:20

Suppiah wrote:There is a big difference between TSP.Unkil, Russia, Beijing commies or whoever that is damaging India versus our own 'leaders' doing so,

This is a prime example of skilled use of rhetoric where US aid to Pakistan that harms or undermines India is compared with and declared insignificant because of the damage that Indians inflict on India.

On the Paki thread on BRF the only reason I can see for this type of argument is sympathy, allegiance and admiration for the USA such as one would expect from a loyal servant of the USA.

We are going around in circles. We have been though all this time and time again.

arun · Post by **arun** » 19 Oct 2012 07:25

shiv wrote:
Suppiah wrote:There is a big difference between TSP.Unkil, Russia, Beijing commies or whoever that is damaging India versus our own 'leaders' doing so,
This is a prime example of skilled use of rhetoric where US aid to Pakistan that harms or undermines India is compared with and declared insignificant because of the damage that Indians inflict on India.

On the Paki thread on BRF the only reason I can see for this type of argument is sympathy, allegiance and admiration for the USA such as one would expect from a loyal servant of the USA.

800% Spot on. Same conclusion can be drawn when this tactic is used on US-India thread.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 19 Oct 2012 07:29

Pls point out which thread it is appropriate, do agree it is OT, but not the first post anyway.. to me it appears anything that does not conform to some mulla's povs are haram on any thread...although ones that conform to that are ok in any thread as well..

arun · Post by **arun** » 19 Oct 2012 07:39

arun wrote:The Asian Human Rights Commission has put out this press release calling for the arrest of Shahbaz Sharif’s daughter and son in law.

Check out the embedded video which has CCTV footage of the incident:

PAKISTAN: The daughter and son-in-law of the chief minister of Punjab must be arrested and prosecuted for torturing and abducting a sweeper

The Asian Human Rights Commission issues a further press release attacking Shahbaz Sharif's daughter, Rabia Imran, for the assault of a bakery employee:

The 'lady gangster' remains at large while her victim's whereabouts are unknown

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Oct 2012 08:01

shiv wrote:
Suppiah wrote:There is a big difference between TSP.Unkil, Russia, Beijing commies or whoever that is damaging India versus our own 'leaders' doing so,
This is a prime example of skilled use of rhetoric where US aid to Pakistan that harms or undermines India is compared with and declared insignificant because of the damage that Indians inflict on India.

On the Paki thread on BRF the only reason I can see for this type of argument is sympathy, allegiance and admiration for the USA such as one would expect from a loyal servant of the USA.

We are going around in circles. We have been though all this time and time again.

+72

Suppiah ji,

Few threads for you to discuss the damage done to India by Indian leadership
1. MKG thread
2. JLN thread
3. 2G thread
4. Corruption thread
5. Strategic leadership thread
6. Internal security thread
7. Red menace thread
8. Indian interests thread
9. J&K news thread
10. Indian foreign policy
11. States news and discussions
12. Assembly elections
13. Deracination thread
14. Off-topic
...

Many other... Or If you want you can start a thread "Damage done by Indians to fellow Indians" and summarize your points there.

This thread is for us to tell the failures of Pakis in being true Muslims and laughing at the light-greens who throw a towel or two when a talibani beheads their sons or stone their daughters to death for adultery.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 19 Oct 2012 08:06

Ok...got the point..thanks! Could not resist taking a swipe at Shivmulla

knowing his sensitivity to any remark that dilutes the 400% focussed anti-pakiness of this thread....also presume anyone that posts anti-US messages on the threads listed above can be termed 'loyal servants of beijing'

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Oct 2012 08:10

You are spoiling the fun... We don't get to see Shivtandav often...

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 19 Oct 2012 08:54

Rangudu wrote:
CRamS wrote:Bro R, you are being facetious. India conntainment or more aptly Hindu containment is a key element of US policy.
Yes, one look at Pranab Mukherjee and his ilk makes the world tremble with fear.

We talk of the past glory, civilizational history etc. but if you are going to be reductionist, here's some reductionism for you - India was a non-entity during the Cold War and is working to be a non-entity now. We had a brief affair with 'high status' but our leaders have shown that they are incapable of thinking big or thinking beyond their parochial interests. Even the greatest of businesses, in the hands of incompetent fools, turn into waste.

There is nothing that a global conspiracy can do to thwart India that can come close to what Indians are doing to India.

I'm not really sure about the relevance of this argument.

It seems to me that the (alleged or real) actions of Indian political leadership to undermine or damage Indian interests are an entity quite independent of US official policy directives aimed at undermining or damaging India. Neither one negates the existence of the other, and it is perfectly possible to recognize both.

For example, during the 1990s, the PM gaddi was occupied by such worthies as Deve Gowda and I.K. Gujral (who folded up the RAW networks in Pakistan.) At the same time, the US State Department deputed Robin Raphel to undermine Indian interests at every turn... from financing and building up the secessionist, pro-terrorist Hurriyat Conference in J&K, to implementing sanctions on Russian cryogenic engine imports under the MTCR.

The incompetence of Deve Gowda or I.K. Gujral did not make the deliberate anti-India machinations of the United States, conducted by Robin Raphel, a "conspiracy theory." It did not make the slightest difference to the entirely real impact those American machinations had upon our national security.

Likewise, I'm the last person who would defend the present day GOI from charges of incompetence or worse.

What exactly does this have to do with an aid package of $2B USD that has been released by the US State Department to Pakistan, while deliberately waiving the clause which demands that Pakistan must not support international terrorism, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

Is this, in fact, the US merely "keeping its options open?" That begs the question....its "options" to do what, exactly?

Why does this aid package to Pakistan from Washington, freed from contingency upon Pakistan eschewing its support for terrorism, include an enormous amount of assets that equip the Pakistan army to wage a conventional war against its only conventional military adversary?

Exactly what "option" is kept open, for Washington, by supplying the Pakistanis with AMRAAMs, P3C Orions, a Perry class Missile Frigate, Harpoon anti-ship missiles, anti-armour TOW missiles, Sidewinder air-to-air missiles, Phalanx naval weapon systems, P3Bs kitted out with the Hawkeye AEW suite?

(This is all after giving America 400% benefit of the doubt, and believing that the F16s, AH-1s, Paveway LGBs, M109 self propelled artillery, T37 military trainer jets, and AN/TPS77 surveillance radars, and countless small arms/NVG kits are *exclusively* for use against the "Bad Taliban" onlee.)

No matter what the current GOI is doing to damage India, can there be any doubt that the Americans are supplying Pakistan with vast quantities of equipment that can serve only one conceivable purpose: to kill Indian citizens? Whether in an open conventional conflict or by deterring Indian conventional responses to Pakistani terrorism... is there any plausible function these lavish American gifts to Pakistan could perform, other than to kill Indian citizens? Furthermore: doesn't the "waiver" of conditionality by the US State Department imply, wholly and exactly, that the US is perfectly willing to see the Pakistan government use terrorism as yet another way of killing Indian citizens?

I don't know if anyone here has seen this paper:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R41856.pdf

Please look at Page 40. It shows a graph of exactly how much aid, in constant dollars, the US has supplied Pakistan with since 1948. It also shows exactly how much of that aid has been "security aid" i.e. aid that consists of items intended specifically to kill Indian citizens and damage Indian interests.

You will notice two things:

1) The amounts of total US aid to Pakistan over 2001-2010 utterly dwarf the US aid to Pakistan over any period excepting 1956-66. By comparison to the present... US aid to Pakistan during the Afghan war was a pittance, less than 50% of today's amounts at its peak.

2) The proportion of US aid to Pakistan over 2001-2010 that constitutes "security aid"... i.e. items intended specifically to kill Indian citizens and damage Indian interests... is a far larger proportion of total aid than at any time in the past, even during the Cold War. I don't know if anyone realizes... $2B is not the TOTAL aid to Pakistan... in 2010, $2B was the "security aid" to Pakistan by itself, alongside another ~$1.4B in "economic assistance."

Can we seriously believe there's no US intent to contain India behind all this?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Oct 2012 08:59

RamaY wrote:You are spoiling the fun... We don't get to see Shivtandav often...

RamaY we are frauds when we get all uptight with Pakistanis who accuse Indians of harming themselves. We don't even allow people with such views to survive on this forum. But when it comes to sucking up to America, our fundamental need to be dhimmis to someone or something makes us meekly accept the same accusations that Pakis make as long as it seems to come from America.

This is definitely the fault of Indians, but when we accuse leftists, WKKs and Pappi Jhappis of being mouthpieces for for Pakistan, it is informative to see how the US manages to make Indians mouthpieces for US interests. It's just that the mouthpieces get all uptight when they are told what they are doing, but like the leftists and Arundhatis, neither the Pakistani mouthpieces nor the US mouthpieces are going to stop cheering their favourite team. They are part of the landscape and the presence of both has to be accepted.

In a one to one comparison it can be stated that being a mouthpiece for the US puts one in a better life situation than being a Paki mouthpiece. To that extent one can be judged superior to the other.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 19 Oct 2012 10:24

Brad Goodman wrote:Persecuted Hazaras flee Pakistan; some die trying

QUETTA, Pakistan (AP) — As he knelt in prayer to mark one of Islam's holiest days, Ali Raza Qurban saw a childhood friend and dozens of others die in a suicide attack on their Shiite mosque. Sunni militants were again targeting minority ethnic Hazaras in this city of narrow streets and wide-open hatreds.

Qurban decided it was time to leave. He found an agent who would hook him up with a smuggler in Indonesia and, for $8,000, get him to Australia.

But he never made it to Australia. He disappeared on Dec. 17, 2011, aboard an overcrowded, rickety wooden boat that capsized within hours of leaving the Indonesian shore.

This is where my sarcasm meter starts buzzing. If the guy is Shiite and facing Sunni discrimination, why not go to a country where the Shiites are a majority, such as Iran or Iraq? Why go to Australia, land of the infidels, beer and AC/DC, when he could go to a Shiite country which shares a fairly long border with Pakland? At the very minimum, he wouldn't have to pay that much money or endure a sea trip.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 19 Oct 2012 11:44

Rudradev wrote:
Yes, one look at Pranab Mukherjee and his ilk makes the world tremble with fear.

We talk of the past glory, civilizational history etc. but if you are going to be reductionist, here's some reductionism for you - India was a non-entity during the Cold War and is working to be a non-entity now. We had a brief affair with 'high status' but our leaders have shown that they are incapable of thinking big or thinking beyond their parochial interests. Even the greatest of businesses, in the hands of incompetent fools, turn into waste.

There is nothing that a global conspiracy can do to thwart India that can come close to what Indians are doing to India.

I'm not really sure about the relevance of this argument.

It seems to me that the (alleged or real) actions of Indian political leadership to undermine or damage Indian interests are an entity quite independent of US official policy directives aimed at undermining or damaging India. Neither one negates the existence of the other, and it is perfectly possible to recognize both.

For example, during the 1990s, the PM gaddi was occupied by such worthies as Deve Gowda and I.K. Gujral (who folded up the RAW networks in Pakistan.) At the same time, the US State Department deputed Robin Raphel to undermine Indian interests at every turn... from financing and building up the secessionist, pro-terrorist Hurriyat Conference in J&K, to implementing sanctions on Russian cryogenic engine imports under the MTCR.

The incompetence of Deve Gowda or I.K. Gujral did not make the deliberate anti-India machinations of the United States, conducted by Robin Raphel, a "conspiracy theory." It did not make the slightest difference to the entirely real impact those American machinations had upon our national security.

Likewise, I'm the last person who would defend the present day GOI from charges of incompetence or worse.

What exactly does this have to do with an aid package of $2B USD that has been released by the US State Department to Pakistan, while deliberately waiving the clause which demands that Pakistan must not support international terrorism, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

Is this, in fact, the US merely "keeping its options open?" That begs the question....its "options" to do what, exactly?

Why does this aid package to Pakistan from Washington, freed from contingency upon Pakistan eschewing its support for terrorism, include an enormous amount of assets that equip the Pakistan army to wage a conventional war against its only conventional military adversary?

Exactly what "option" is kept open, for Washington, by supplying the Pakistanis with AMRAAMs, P3C Orions, a Perry class Missile Frigate, Harpoon anti-ship missiles, anti-armour TOW missiles, Sidewinder air-to-air missiles, Phalanx naval weapon systems, P3Bs kitted out with the Hawkeye AEW suite?

(This is all after giving America 400% benefit of the doubt, and believing that the F16s, AH-1s, Paveway LGBs, M109 self propelled artillery, T37 military trainer jets, and AN/TPS77 surveillance radars, and countless small arms/NVG kits are *exclusively* for use against the "Bad Taliban" onlee.)

No matter what the current GOI is doing to damage India, can there be any doubt that the Americans are supplying Pakistan with vast quantities of equipment that can serve only one conceivable purpose: to kill Indian citizens? Whether in an open conventional conflict or by deterring Indian conventional responses to Pakistani terrorism... is there any plausible function these lavish American gifts to Pakistan could perform, other than to kill Indian citizens? Furthermore: doesn't the "waiver" of conditionality by the US State Department imply, wholly and exactly, that the US is perfectly willing to see the Pakistan government use terrorism as yet another way of killing Indian citizens?

I don't know if anyone here has seen this paper:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R41856.pdf

Please look at Page 40. It shows a graph of exactly how much aid, in constant dollars, the US has supplied Pakistan with since 1948. It also shows exactly how much of that aid has been "security aid" i.e. aid that consists of items intended specifically to kill Indian citizens and damage Indian interests.

You will notice two things:

1) The amounts of total US aid to Pakistan over 2001-2010 utterly dwarf the US aid to Pakistan over any period excepting 1956-66. By comparison to the present... US aid to Pakistan during the Afghan war was a pittance, less than 50% of today's amounts at its peak.

2) The proportion of US aid to Pakistan over 2001-2010 that constitutes "security aid"... i.e. items intended specifically to kill Indian citizens and damage Indian interests... is a far larger proportion of total aid than at any time in the past, even during the Cold War. I don't know if anyone realizes... $2B is not the TOTAL aid to Pakistan... in 2010, $2B was the "security aid" to Pakistan by itself, alongside another ~$1.4B in "economic assistance."

Can we seriously believe there's no US intent to contain India behind all this?

1.I don't think there is a conscious bid to undermine india....as a DRIVING force for these supplies.

its more;
a. historical momentum +
b. bribes to tspa as an organization +
c. subsidies to US arms companies +
d. genuine arms and ammo lost by tspa against talibs.

2. india usa bhai bhai is a non starter. everyone who has ever lived in the usa knows intimately what individual americans are like----- individualistic, hard working self promoting, self interest promoting, self centered people.

if the prajah is like that, none can expect a strong sense of "relationship-mindedness" from the rajahs....and going out of their way to do stuff that is not directly in their interests.

Indo - US alliance etc. is a way of saying.."yes- we will trade in defence and sensitive matters."

Rest of the time the USA is looking out for its own. India ought to do the same, and in my opinion, is doing the same. We dont want to spend money and time and men in afghanistan,
and all talk of close allies and stuff with the US did not make us send any army men there . The MMRCA deal everyone has seen, the nuclear deal and all everyone has seen.

So yups, the US is not going out of its way to do us favours. It is not going to cut the cord with the Paks, simply because they matter more to them right now, than we do. We dont supply the troops in afghanistan anything, we dont have a land route into afghanistan. So the Paks matter more, like it or not.

The US is not going out of its way to be inimical to us either. So, in that manner, much as I find R-dev's posts to be pretty awesome, I have to disagree with him on this issue, and deny that there is much insight behind the relations as they stand.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 19 Oct 2012 11:46

ArmenT,
Iran rounded up and deported their Shia Afghan refugees in massive numbers, after using them as low cost labour for postwar reconstruction.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 19 Oct 2012 12:53

Terrorist Mard-e-Momin-Animals (MMA) to come together again..

Wonder what the implication is...

As days goes by, whatever little 'revulsion' is getting converted to the usual Paki twist on jehadi terror..

Talking about the attack on Malala Yousafzai, the JUI-F chief questioned, “Why voice was not raised for Aafia Siddiqui who was hit by three bullets. Isn’t it double standards?”

Bravo! This is how a pure-bred mulla must speak..defend the shariah to death.

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » 19 Oct 2012 13:41

Suppiah wrote:Terrorist Mard-e-Momin-Animals (MMA) to come together again..

Imran is supposed to be the Chosen One of the ISI - PA.

It is hard to imagine MMA being restarted without ISI - PA approval, but the reason why is not obvious to me.

There has to be some angle for the ISI to be doing this.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 19 Oct 2012 18:11

RudraJi et. al,

RudraJi, super arguments based on facts, and facts alone.

I want to add something more on this Indian leaders doing damage to India Vs US support to the terrorist state to the detriment of India as succinctly as I can.

Indian leadership and elite consist of all strands, from nationalists, to genuine peace-nicks, to naive WKKs, to downright traitors who have a basic antipathy to a rising Hindu-dominated India (they would rather see some "South Asia" mumbo jumbo).

Now get this. Imagine immediately post 9/11, US genuinely waged a war on terror which included bringing TSP to justice. With US's awesome military/economic might, and a public seething with anger at 9/11, surely US could have accomplished this. And in the process, it could have co-opted India as an ally and a fellow profuse victim of TSP-sponsored terror. It would have been a match made in heaven.

Instead, US co-opted the biggest terrorist entity there is. Even taking into account all the logistical constraints BS that US put out in spurning India's offer of help and co-opting TSP instead, the FACT remains, that to this day, US is not only unwilling to touch TSPA, the terrorist abomination, but as RudraJi's statistcis show, it is propping up TSPA big time. It simply does not want to see TSPA brought to its knees. And lets discount the other crap that US routinely puts out, namely, nukes will fall in the hands of "extremists" if not for TSPA, I mean they already are, not to mention US actually facilitated or looked the other way when TSP was acquiring nukes. I mean US puts out a premise, and it sticks as if it is gospel truth. If someone were to suggest a commando raid to take out OBL from under Kiani's arse prior to what we know now, and US did not like the idea for whatever reason, same bogus reasons would have been doled out, TSP nuke power etc. Bottom line is this. It would take a heartbeat and a few "tips" from CIA/Pentagon for CNN/Fox/MSNBC/NYT/WP/Economist etc to portray TSPA as the vile entity that it is.

Now what has this got to do with Indian leadership letting India down? Now faced with no internationals support whatsoever, boxed in with TSP, faced with their military limitations, the nationalist and other sane elements of Indian leadership have no critical mass to execute what is right visa vi TSP. Except of course exude impotent anger like me. This then tilts the balance in favor of genuine peace-nicks, naive WKKs, and traitors to execute without any opposition their pet dreams which they believed all along.

So, R-man, while I agree with you on sections of the India leadership letting Indian down, but do you see how US perfidy is intertwined with this?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 19 Oct 2012 18:18

Even as Aman Ki Tamasha rages on, TSP is sticking to its game-plan. It knows exactly what it wants

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/19/world ... india.html

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 19 Oct 2012 18:25

Worrying about US intent tiwards India vis-a-vis TSP, as opposed to focusing on its actions, is only relevant if we are constructing a mental model of the US with a view to manipulating the US. Current Indian leadership feels it has few levers for doing this. To what extent they are right is a topic for Indo US thread.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 19 Oct 2012 18:30

CRamS, there are always a range of options other than goingg to war and doing bhaichara. Peaceful boycott of TSP for instance, while settling down for long term, low intensity conflict.

Shaashtanga · Post by **Shaashtanga** » 19 Oct 2012 18:37

Sabir Nazar's viewpoint this week
Image

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 19 Oct 2012 18:55

US reluctance to take on TSP, even continuing to finance cannot simply be explained by its supposedly anti-india motives. After all, TSP has done more then enough damage to Unkil himself, both directly through terror and indirectly through its perfidy. If Unkil goes back from Afghan with tail behind back, it is TSP's 'credit'..I am not even counting damage done to Unkils real allies - the poodle or others.

While there is definitely a 'keep these SDRE's in check' factor, no one can deny that and defend that, not from Indian POV, there is something else too. If we miss that we miss the real answer...we can choose an easy one, that is to day Unkil is doing that simply out of hatred for SDREs., but that is only part of the answer..

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Oct 2012 19:02

shiv wrote: RamaY we are frauds when we get all uptight with Pakistanis who accuse Indians of harming themselves. We don't even allow people with such views to survive on this forum. But when it comes to sucking up to America, our fundamental need to be dhimmis to someone or something makes us meekly accept the same accusations that Pakis make as long as it seems to come from America.

This is definitely the fault of Indians, but when we accuse leftists, WKKs and Pappi Jhappis of being mouthpieces for for Pakistan, it is informative to see how the US manages to make Indians mouthpieces for US interests. It's just that the mouthpieces get all uptight when they are told what they are doing, but like the leftists and Arundhatis, neither the Pakistani mouthpieces nor the US mouthpieces are going to stop cheering their favourite team. They are part of the landscape and the presence of both has to be accepted.

In a one to one comparison it can be stated that being a mouthpiece for the US puts one in a better life situation than being a Paki mouthpiece. To that extent one can be judged superior to the other.

Shivji,

I am honestly liking your current avatar. I think the readers need the clear and honest perspective on Paki perfidy that you have been providing all along. I strongly support each one of your recent posts and completely agree with the prescription you subscribed to Pakis (all shades of green) in the other thread.

I posted my thoughts on rest of your point at - http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1353820

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 19 Oct 2012 19:14

Rangudu wrote:
CRamS wrote:Bro R, you are being facetious. India conntainment or more aptly Hindu containment is a key element of US policy.
Yes, one look at Pranab Mukherjee and his ilk makes the world tremble with fear.

We talk of the past glory, civilizational history etc. but if you are going to be reductionist, here's some reductionism for you - India was a non-entity during the Cold War and is working to be a non-entity now. We had a brief affair with 'high status' but our leaders have shown that they are incapable of thinking big or thinking beyond their parochial interests. Even the greatest of businesses, in the hands of incompetent fools, turn into waste.

There is nothing that a global conspiracy can do to thwart India that can come close to what Indians are doing to India.

+ Million ++

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 19 Oct 2012 19:15

RD,

Boss, my sincere request for you to get to the point, i.e the 'elevator pitch'. I just don't have the time, unlike before, to digest long posts.

To your reply above, here's what I'd say:

(1) I did not say Unkil needs to keep 'options open', but rather, Unkil needs to keep lines of comm to TSPA. The price for that is a certain level of $$$ flowing. Even in the past, Unkil has certified whatever Congress asked for, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. None of this is evidence of mal-intent against India, because by definition any help to keep TSP afloat eventually hurts India, with money being fungible and weapons being redeployable etc.

(2) My other point was regarding this recent, specific situation of Hillary 'waiving' terror reqs to keep TSPA $$ flowing. My point is that this waiver is in no way unique or earth shattering as my friend CRS suggests. It is actually part of the same Congress-Executive dance around TSPA perfidies that has gone on for ages. The only difference, if anything, is that by using the 'waiver' clause vs. a fake 'WE certify TSPA is good' clause, what we are seeing is the clear deterioration of ties.

(3) Finally, you (and CRS) need to consider that by Congress enacting this requirement, it forced the Executive branch to make a call on decisive TSPA when they are not at that stage. That tail cannot wag the dog here. If you are in a crappy job but are unsure of other opportunities, issuing ultimatums might force you to keep the current job, for example. At the moment, Unkil needs TSPA's ear, so he will pay the baksheesh. That doesn't mean that this is all India driven. The world doesn't revolve around us.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Oct 2012 19:16

Suppiah wrote:US reluctance to take on TSP, even continuing to finance cannot simply be explained by its supposedly anti-india motives. After all, TSP has done more then enough damage to Unkil himself, both directly through terror and indirectly through its perfidy. If Unkil goes back from Afghan with tail behind back, it is TSP's 'credit'..I am not even counting damage done to Unkils real allies - the poodle or others.

While there is definitely a 'keep these SDRE's in check' factor, no one can deny that and defend that, not from Indian POV, there is something else too. If we miss that we miss the real answer...we can choose an easy one, that is to day Unkil is doing that simply out of hatred for SDREs., but that is only part of the answer..

Pakistan has helped Unkil more than harmed them. It's a simple calculation. The benefits outweigh the gains. Soviet invasion in Afghanistan, strategic hold in the subcontinent, arms purchases far outweigh the few billions & temporary body bags that Pakistanis are blamed for. Hillary Clinton blames the US for creating the Al Qaeda so technically, it is not Pakistan but US that has harmed itslef. Pakistan is too busy to take on the mighty US since it is deeply involved in Kashmmir. US has understood that Pakistan's core interests are Afghanistan and India and is unwilling to give it strategic room to maneuvre. The deaths of American soldiers are temporary since they won't be deployed there forever.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 19 Oct 2012 19:20

Since when deaths are temporary?

Seriously, yes, the whore has helped, but harmed too. Unkil, like any mafia don, does not want harm. He only wants benefits for his money.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Oct 2012 19:28

Its only temporary. There are no shortage of men willing to die for Unkil Sam. Permanent would be when they were permanently deployed in Afghanistan. Pakistan is not going anywhere. US will move out in 2014. Hence, temporary it is.

Mafia dons are pragmatic. No one can become a billionaire overnight without taking a few hits & unkil has taken quite a few of them. Its not the media portrayal where 0 deaths is the norm. They are willing to sacrifice small for big. The invasions of Afghanistan & Iraq has caused a few losses to US and the figures are available online. Its not that the govt did not expect. But the permanent residents of a particular area (read Pakistan) deserves respect & US is giving it just that.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Oct 2012 19:43

Don't we all know that USA is the father of TSP and UK is its mother? Then why are we surprised when USA does all it can to sustain TSPA?

Coming to India's inaction to TSP nonsense, isn't it (the existence and prosperity of Pakistan) the foundation stone of Modern India in 1947? How can India destroy TSP, its twin sister? For TSP to dissolve, India in its current secular/socialist form too must dissolve.

Only Bharat has the solution to TSP in spite of 3.5 friends.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 19 Oct 2012 19:48

Of all the Johnnies funding the whore TSP, Unkil is the most dangerous. Equally important is, of all the foes India is facing, Beijing is the most dangerous. To take on one snake, you need another. Combine that with the fact highlighted above, that is, Unkil funding TSP terror has more nuances and not just anti-SDRE (if I read R-Man correctly, he is saying same thing), I think there is substantial chance for working with Unkil to the best extent possible to neutralise Beijing. Just as some 'temporary deaths' as Nakul put it does not worry Unkil, some side effects of this poison should not worry us considering overall benefits. Of course, keep all options open all the time and don't be fooled and all that goes without saying.

I read somewhere recently, BJPs Gadkari, after his trip to China said one day we can be friends with TSP but never so with China.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Oct 2012 19:50

I read somewhere recently, BJPs Gadkari, after his trip to China said one day we can be friends with TSP but never so with China.

I don't why he said that but my guess that it is the same reason that we cannot be friends with Unkil. The no1 power slot has place for only one country.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 19 Oct 2012 19:52

nakul wrote:
I read somewhere recently, BJPs Gadkari, after his trip to China said one day we can be friends with TSP but never so with China.
I don't why he said that but my guess that it is the same reason that we cannot be friends with Unkil. The no1 power slot has place for only one country.

And that path lies thru' being No.2, No. 3 and so on...so let us take on one at a time..

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 19 Oct 2012 20:16

Suppiah wrote: I read somewhere recently, BJPs Gadkari, after his trip to China said one day we can be friends with TSP but never so with China.

Suppiah ji ,
Interesting assesment by Gadkari
can you point to a source ?

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 19 Oct 2012 20:19

I think I read in Deccanherald print...gotta search..

here is it..quoted by Kuldip Nayyar

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/283 ... chief.html

Gadkari does not like China. Even during his visit to the country, he said, he was unhappy because “they think no end of themselves.” He has been hurt by some anti-India remarks he had heard. “We can become friends of Pakistan, but not China which has unlimited ambitions,” said Gadkari. These were, more or less, the words which Lal Bahadur Shastri had used when he, as home minister, visited the forward areas after the India-China war in 1962. I was his press officer

Interesting the little man so many years ago, had the foresight..

Talking of anti-Indian agenda, it is interesting how unkil himself has an anti-hindu agenda, although it is more pro-EJ agenda that manifests itself as anti-hindu. But its friends in India are not just not anti-hindu, but very much pro-hindu. On the contrary, Beijing, being godless commies, have no specific anti-hindu agenda, but its 'friends' in India have a visceral hatred for anything hindu...

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 19 Oct 2012 20:27

-edit-
You beat me to it !

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 19 Oct 2012 20:47

While we are discussing, the freedom fighters are doing their good job...

http://dawn.com/2012/10/19/bomb-blast-i ... personnel/

Three FC troops halaled.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 19 Oct 2012 21:03

shiv wrote:
RamaY wrote:You are spoiling the fun... We don't get to see Shivtandav often...
RamaY we are frauds when we get all uptight with Pakistanis who accuse Indians of harming themselves. We don't even allow people with such views to survive on this forum. But when it comes to sucking up to America, our fundamental need to be dhimmis to someone or something makes us meekly accept the same accusations that Pakis make as long as it seems to come from America.

This is definitely the fault of Indians, but when we accuse leftists, WKKs and Pappi Jhappis of being mouthpieces for for Pakistan, it is informative to see how the US manages to make Indians mouthpieces for US interests. It's just that the mouthpieces get all uptight when they are told what they are doing, but like the leftists and Arundhatis, neither the Pakistani mouthpieces nor the US mouthpieces are going to stop cheering their favourite team. They are part of the landscape and the presence of both has to be accepted.

In a one to one comparison it can be stated that being a mouthpiece for the US puts one in a better life situation than being a Paki mouthpiece. To that extent one can be judged superior to the other.

LoL!! Anyone who does not share your opinion should be branded as a mouth piece. Nice - blame and persecute the act of USA and on top of it anyone who dares to explain it. Well according to you, if US is managing to make Indians mouth pieces, without even trying, then probably it is nice idea to rethink some assumptions and conclusions that led you to say what you said above.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Oct 2012 21:32

venkat_r wrote: LoL!! Anyone who does not share your opinion should be branded as a mouth piece. Nice - blame and persecute the act of USA and on top of it anyone who dares to explain it. Well according to you, if US is managing to make Indians mouth pieces, without even trying, then probably it is nice idea to rethink some assumptions and conclusions that led you to say what you said above.

Go ahead. The forum is open. Post your opinion and I'll have my say. What I find funny is that no one worries about how or why Pakistan manages to create mouthpieces out of Indians. People are happy only to curse such Indians. But here you are getting all twisted up because I said something about USA-rakshakism. I think US mouthpieces should be criticized just like Paki mouthpieces. If you have a problem with that its tough.

Anyway this is OT - but it goes to show how much taqleef and persistent argument is caused simply by being critical of America on a forum where criticism of anything Indian or Pakistani is fair game in the name of patriotism. Chillax brother. It is OK to be patriotic about America. I understand and empathize. No need to feel guilty. But it is also OK to criticize that.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 19 Oct 2012 21:41

Dr. Shiv,

The question is not whether US $$/support to TSPA has harmed India. Of course it has and continues to do so. Additionally, there is not question in my mind as to the Cold War period where powerful parts of USG actively aided TSP with a shared intent to harm India (E.g.Khalistan terrorism). That's why I agree with the cautious approach by key Indian intel and military elements to treat US weapons offers, cooperation mechanisms etc. with suspicion.

The question above is whether a recent, routine bureaucratic decision by Hillary Clinton to use a legislative mechanism to keep paying $$ to TSPA is somehow primarily driven by a "check India" motivation. It is laughable and paranoid to say that the 'waiver' was driven by a need to contain India.

If you want to interpret every American action that benefits TSP as a "hate India" driven step, then you'll need to act like what China does with how other countries treat Taiwan. That's simply not realistic.

IF we reduce every single US move to imagine some White american babu sitting in a chair and laughing like Mogambo in Mr. India saying "That will teach the SDRE Indians", then we might as well stop doing analysis and start wearing clown hats.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Oct 2012 21:57

Rangudu wrote: IF we reduce every single US move to imagine some White american babu sitting in a chair and laughing like Mogambo in Mr. India saying "That will teach the SDRE Indians", then we might as well stop doing analysis and start wearing clown hats.

Rman - my view is a posture. My posture is one of complete opposition to anyone who arms and funds Pakistan whether or not he is otherwise a nice person or not.

Someone once asked me why I am not critical of say Sweden, France or China. I am, but none of them are such close allies of Pakistan. None of them has poured in the volume of aid for as long as the US has done. I think is is necessary to maintain an audible and persistent complaint that US aid to Pakistan is not OK. As far as I am concerned if India shoots itself it is India's business. But i don't want India to be shot by Pakistan using a US made gun. The excuse that it is OK to get hurt by a Pakistan propped up by the US because Indians are good at hurting themselves is not an argument I accept on behalf of the US.

Nothing short of stopping all aid supporting the Pakistan military is acceptable to me whether or not the US is doing this to keep India down. May I use a vulgar analogy? If I rape my neighbor's wife I can claim that it is not because I want to hurt my neighbor. I am merely satisfying my lust. I am not against him. But I am pro me and I act in my self interest. I don't mean to hurt him. But hey despite lack of intention to hurt my neighbor he gets hurt. Not my fault.

The US may not want to hurt India. But it is helping Pakistan which hurts India. The excuse that the US does not intend to hurt India is like my raping my neighbor's wife merely for my self interest, not to hurt his interest.

The US must stop all aid to the Pakistan military. Any excuses offered on behalf of the US just do not cut it as far as I am concerned.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 19 Oct 2012 22:02

If a thulla is initially aiding a rapist to teach a helpless family a lesson for not paying hafta, due to changes in circumstances the motivation changes to another target family in the same neighborhood as the previous family, what should the first family think about the thulla.