West Asia News and Discussions

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 02 Nov 2012 15:39

The Al Thani family appear to have tried everying (within their limited wit) to get their way in Syria. This is quite funny:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ealed.html

In her final email, part of a trove obtained by The Guardian, she appeared to offer the Assad family sanctuary in Qatar. "I honestly think that this is a good opportunity to leave and re-start a normal life - it can't be easy on the children, it can't be easy on you," she writes.

"I only pray that you will convince the president to take this as an opportunity to exit without having to face charges - I am sure you have many places to turn to, including Doha."

There is no sign of a response to this final email, dated 30 January, suggesting that Sheikha Mayassa misjudged Mrs Assad's mood and that Syria's first lady remained stubbornly loyal to her husband.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 02 Nov 2012 15:51

And the dimwitted Al Thani takes another step towards becoming an international joke:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... over.html?

The Emir of Qatar on Tuesday underlined his growing and controversial status in Middle Eastern affairs by becoming the first Arab leader to visit the blockaded Palestinian enclave of Gaza.

The Emir, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani, arrived via the Rafah crossing point from Egypt. After the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is an off-shoot, won the Egyptian presidential election Hamas hoped it would open the border and end the Israeli-backed blockade.

In fact, Egypt has reinforced it, keen to ensure the West it will continue to be a strategic partner. Hamas has suffered a second blow with the civil war in Syria, where it used to base its headquarters, and it has been forced to disavow the Assad regime and relocate to Qatar.

Israel condemned the visit.

"No one understands why he would fund an organisation which has become notorious with committing suicide bombings and firing rockets on civilians," a foreign ministry spokesman said. "By hugging Hamas, the Emir of Qatar is really someone who has thrown peace under the bus.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 02 Nov 2012 21:26

^^ The above article is the biggest load of nonsense. Hamas suffered a blow yes, but they left on their own accord because they didnt want to help Asad and even this week a Hamas commander was killed fighting for the opposition.

Next the Emir gave Hamas a lot of money the moment they came to power. So, this isnt exactly new.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 02 Nov 2012 22:41

^^^^^

Ha ha. Compared with the rancid stuff from your "sources" that you post here liberally, the article above is the pure gospel truth.

Maybe the article below is more in tune with your feelings towards the terrorist-supporter Al Thani:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oc ... gaza-visit

"The emir is confirming that Qatar is the principal supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood takeover in Egypt and everywhere else," said Ahmed Asfahani, the respected al-Hayat newspaper columnist. "Qatar is using the Brotherhood to promote its own interests. It also shows that Qatar is trying to replace Iran as a major player on the Palestinian issue."

Observers in the region also see the visit in part as a reward to Hamas for ending its support for Assad. Until a few months ago, the movement's exiled leadership was based in Damascus, helping bolster Syria's credentials as a key member of the "axis of resistance" confronting Israel, along with Iran and Hezbollah in Lebanon.

But its veteran leader, Khalid Mish'al, decamped to Doha. And Haniyeh came out in open support of the right of the Syrian people to oppose Assad.

Mahmoud Abbas, the western-backed Palestinian president and leader of Fatah, had let it be known from his headquarters in the West Bank town of Ramallah that he was furious about the visit, which plays into the hands of his bitterest rival. "Nobody's happy about it," said one Palestinian source. "It definitely makes a statement. And of course there is a track record of Arab regimes playing into intra-Palestinian politics."

Israel angrily condemned the Qatari visit as well. "We find it weird that the emir doesn't support all of the Palestinians but sides with Hamas over the Palestinian Authority [in the West Bank] which he has never visited," said its foreign ministry spokesman, Yigal Palmor. "The emir has chosen his camp and it is not good."

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 02 Nov 2012 23:37

Paging Johann

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 03 Nov 2012 01:03

The New Indentured Laborers

Behind the glitz and glamour of opulent malls, glamorous hotels and ornate promenades in the Middle East is a gritty world of South Asian migrant laborers, who toil in near-slavery conditions.

http://www.littleindia.com/life/13916-t ... orers.html

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 03 Nov 2012 01:19

Not to worry, the Saudis will soon kick the Abbas group into touch financially soon... This whole thing looks like the same old Saudi-Qatari pissing contest, which is both weird and dangerous. The American posture on this must be like sliding down a razor blade sprinkled with chilli powder

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 03 Nov 2012 04:23

eklavya wrote:^^^^^

Ha ha. Compared with the rancid stuff from your "sources" that you post here liberally, the article above is the pure gospel truth.

Maybe the article below is more in tune with your feelings towards the terrorist-supporter Al Thani:

DOn't understand why you are getting hot and bothered about me commenting about the article and replying like a 5 year old, its not like I am commenting about a statement by you but anyway...

In fact, Egypt has reinforced it, keen to ensure the West it will continue to be a strategic partner. Hamas has suffered a second blow with the civil war in Syria, where it used to base its headquarters, and it has been forced to disavow the Assad regime and relocate to Qatar.

Lol. Asad asked for Hamas help to go and "deal" with protestors. Hamas said no. Damascus said leave. End of story. There is nothing to debate there.

Qatari's have made contributions to Hamas - even after they took over the Gaza strip Qatari's said have whatever cash you want. There is no shock to this and it isn't new - fact.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 03 Nov 2012 05:24

Now we can eavesdrop on the Hamas -Assad hotline too! Eklavaya ji, don't you dare challenge or mock anything that goes against whatever GCC wants to agitprop about - even by quoting articles. Anyone not quoting GCC approved sources is a 5 year old or a child. There is only one claimant to adolescence here who decides on others' adulthood.

Had to interact with some inflated egos masquerading as medical experts of Saudi origin, some time ago. Anything that went against their tantrums elicited a very similar response. I guess what you are seeing is a result of catching the Saudi infection of the same attitude.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 03 Nov 2012 05:35

^^^^^

If one has "sources", analytical powers that would embarrass a 5 year old, and a proclivity for making it up as one goes along ... these mishaps do occur.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Nov 2012 08:38

Israel showing why it evokes terror in most of its enemies:

Israel acknowledges killing Palestinian deputy in 1988 raid

Israel has acknowledged after nearly 25 years of secrecy that it killed a deputy of the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat in a raid in Tunisia.

Two of those involved in the operation in 1988 now hold high political office: Ehud Barak, the defence minister, and Moshe Yaalon, the deputy prime minister. At the time Barak was deputy military chief and Yaalon was head of the elite commando unit Sayeret Matkal. Their precise roles in the operation were not divulged, and both men's offices declined comment.

the country's military censor cleared the Yediot Ahronot daily to publish details, including an interview with the commando who killed him, at least 12 years after the newspaper obtained the information.

"I shot him with a long burst of fire," the now-deceased commando Nahum Lev told Yediot. "I was careful not to hurt his wife, who had showed up there. He died. Abu Jihad was involved in horrible acts against civilians. He was a dead man walking. I shot him without hesitation." Lev died in a motorcycle accident in 2000.

Dozens of similar operations have been attributed to Israel over the decades, but Israel rarely takes responsibility. Abu Jihad founded the Palestine Liberation Organisation with Arafat and was blamed for a series of deadly attacks against Israelis, including a 1978 attack on an Israeli bus that killed 38. He organised the first Palestinian uprising against Israel, which began in December 1987. The following April, Israel killed him.

According to the Yediot report, the operation was a joint effort by the Mossad secret service and the Sayeret Matkal. At the time of the raid the PLO was based in Tunisia.

From a command post on an Israeli boat in the Mediterranean Sea, 26 Israeli commandos reached the shores of Tunisia on rubber boats. Lev approached Abu Jihad's home in Tunis with another soldier, who was dressed as a woman. The two pretended to be a couple on holiday, with Lev carrying what appeared to be a large box of chocolates. Inside the box, however, was a gun fitted with a silencer.

Upon encountering the first of Abu Jihad's bodyguards, Lev drew his weapon and shot the man in the head. Another team killed a separate bodyguard and a gardener before entering the villa. Lev's partner was the first to fire at the Palestinian leader. When Lev noticed Abu Jihad reaching for a weapon he shot and killed him.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 03 Nov 2012 14:27

Bahraini bandits imprisoning twitter users for insulting their gang:

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20179983

A Bahrain court has sentenced an online activist to six months in prison after convicting him for "defaming" King Hamad in comments posted on Twitter.

The man, whose name was not released, was among four people arrested last month on the same charges.

Appearing in court on 22 October, they all denied any wrongdoing. Verdicts in the other cases are expected next week.

Insulting the king and other members of the ruling family, the Al Khalifah, is a serious offence in Gulf state.

In September, the prominent pro-democracy activist Zainab al-Khawaja was jailed for two months for damaging public property in a police station. Ms Khawaja's lawyer said she had torn up a picture of the king.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 03 Nov 2012 16:50

Just as in zoos there are lots of different animals, among arabaric animals too there is considerable variety....Qatari emir supporting Hamas may nudge a piss process that Israel can live with...as he is part of unkil camp..

I think the emir club wants Palestinian issue to be solved, even if that means drowning them all, as long as Abdul on the street can swallow it to some extent and thereby don't disturb them and their harems.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 03 Nov 2012 17:30

brihaspati wrote:Now we can eavesdrop on the Hamas -Assad hotline too! Eklavaya ji, don't you dare challenge or mock anything that goes against whatever GCC wants to agitprop about - even by quoting articles. Anyone not quoting GCC approved sources is a 5 year old or a child. There is only one claimant to adolescence here who decides on others' adulthood.

LOL! This had nothing to do with challenging the GCC. You are making out I "defended" them, in this case all I did was state mere facts. As usual trying to twist what people say. At least next time come up with somethng credible.

Had to interact with some inflated egos masquerading as medical experts of Saudi origin, some time ago. Anything that went against their tantrums elicited a very similar response. I guess what you are seeing is a result of catching the Saudi infection of the same attitude.

Aahh yes lets stereotype everybody and also you can't even reply about the topic I even spoke about but instead make comments about the person. Unfortunately I am not going to stoop to your level.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 03 Nov 2012 17:35

eklavya wrote:^^^^^

If one has "sources", analytical powers that would embarrass a 5 year old, and a proclivity for making it up as one goes along ... these mishaps do occur.

Lol! Love the fact you can't even reply to the facts I stated on the topic at hand and instead keep talking about my sources.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 03 Nov 2012 18:12

shyamd, exactly what in the daily telegraph article are you disputing? As far as I can tell, Al Thani is a sponsor of terrorism, and you agree. So, you can chill.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 03 Nov 2012 20:14

Must read:

Hezbollah Prepares for a Wider War Than It May Want

Hezbollah’s launching of a pilotless spy plane, which was shot down by Israel’s air force in the southern part of the country in early October, has been seen as more evidence that the Lebanese militia is preparing for war.

Israelis assume that the drone was gathering visual intelligence to help Hezbollah in its goal of bombarding distant targets with long-range surface-to-surface missiles.

No doubt it was collecting information in case of another confrontation with Israel, but whether the terrorist group is seeking a full-blown war is a more complicated question that may depend less on what Hezbollah wants than on the heat it is getting from its patrons.

The group’s possession of so sophisticated a craft (which was assembled from Iranian-made parts) is further evidence that Hezbollah is the most advanced and best-equipped militia of its kind the world has ever seen.

Ever since it forced the Israelis’ panicky retreat from Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah has been building up an immense military force, with firepower that 90 percent of the world’s countries don’t possess, according to Meir Dagan, the former director of the Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency.

The militia’s war doctrine is based on the assumption that Israel is hypersensitive to civilian casualties, that it cannot wage a protracted war and that it will always aim for the quickest possible clear-cut victory. With this in mind, Hezbollah has constructed a complex network of underground bunkers with the goal of assuring survivability, redundancy and an ability to maintain a prolonged missile barrage against Israeli cities.

Successful Strategy

The doctrine proved itself in the war between the two sides in 2006, when Israel failed in its attempt to liquidate Hezbollah and was once again forced to withdraw from Lebanon, bruised and bleeding.

Hezbollah’s approach to combat came from Iran. The organization was founded in 1983 by Iran’s revolutionary guards as part of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini’s plan to export his revolution. Over the years, with Iranian funding and encouragement, the group has become the most important political and military player in Lebanon.

In recent years, Hezbollah has taken on an additional role, serving as an effective bargaining chip in the balance of fear between Iran and Israel, deterring the latter from going ahead with any mission to attack Iran’s nuclear installations. One reason that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has held back is Hezbollah’s ability to wreak havoc in Israel with its huge stockpile of some 70,000 missiles and rockets, the most powerful of which is the Scud D, with a range of 700 kilometers (about 435 miles). Were it not for Hezbollah’s missiles, a top Israeli defense official told me, Israel would have struck Iran’s sites long ago.

That said, one shouldn’t draw conclusions based only on Hezbollah’s past and potential successes. The organization is at a crossroads. Syria, its second-most-important ally, is going through upheaval and faces fundamental changes. The munitions from Iran to Hezbollah are transported through Syria. The regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad has also supplied large weapons to Hezbollah, as well as provided access to launching sites -- “the strategic bases,” as Mossad calls them -- for its missile barrages against Israel.

Any regime that takes over from Assad will remember who supported him as he slaughtered thousands of civilians. Being cut off from Syria is a nightmare for Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah.
Lebanon’s Role

No less menacing is the possibility, which is by no means far-fetched, that the Arab Spring will reach Lebanon, a prospect that might include a rebellion against Hezbollah’s state within a state. Even the regime in Iran is far from rock solid, and changes there could significantly worsen Hezbollah’s relations with its patron.

With the perspective of time, what appeared to be a victory over Israel in 2006 takes on a more complex cast. The war began when Hezbollah abducted two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid. Israel’s massive response came as a surprise to Nasrallah, and he admitted publicly that he hadn’t expected it. Although Hezbollah survived and was seen to have won that round, Lebanon as a whole sustained heavy damage and many Lebanese blamed Nasrallah for precipitating it.

Nasrallah is aware that the next confrontation with Israel will look different. The Israelis have invested in vast intelligence operations since 2006. Hezbollah believes that these efforts were evident in the February 2008 killing in Damascus of Imad Moughniyeh, the group’s military commander, with a booby-trapped headrest in his car, as well in mysterious explosions at some of its illicit missile depots in Lebanon.

More important, Israel has already declared several times that if and when war breaks out again, it will hold the Lebanese government responsible and will destroy government targets.

The 2006 war created a mutual deterrence: the Israelis refrain from an open pre-emptive assault against Hezbollah’s missile stockpiles, while the militia is compelled to moderate its responses. Instead, it has tried to avenge Mughniyeh’s assassination and other suspected Israeli actions by attacking Israeli tourists and diplomats in far-flung locations, outside of the Middle East, from New Delhi, and Baku, Azerbaijan, to Bangkok.

Nasrallah’s predicament springs chiefly from his dual role as Iran’s proxy and an authentic Lebanese leader who would like to be seen as leader of all the Arabs, not only of the Shiites. It was on behalf of the Iranians, senior Israeli intelligence officials told me, that Hezbollah operatives attacked Israeli tourists in the Bulgarian resort of Burgas on July 18, killing six people.
Iran’s Power

This was seen as revenge for the assassination of Iranian nuclear scientists for which Iran blames Israel. And it is for Iran’s benefit that Hezbollah has made such intense preparations for war, including the recent drone reconnaissance mission. Iran, in the event of an Israeli assault on its territory, will demand that Hezbollah wreak vengeance on its behalf, and Nasrallah, the Lebanese politician, is aware that this could lead to devastation in his country, for which he will be blamed.

Yet it is doubtful that Nasrallah, who owes everything he possesses to Iran, could say no to such an order from his patrons. Israeli intelligence sources reckon that he may well select a middle path -- a barrage that is limited in both the number of missiles launched and in time, so that Israel won’t feel obligated to launch a full-scale military attack in response. This would be a dangerous gamble.

As Nasrallah has learned, it is not always possible to know what to expect from the other side, especially when it comes to the Israelis. Even a limited engagement could deteriorate into a war.

(Ronen Bergman is a senior correspondent for military and intelligence affairs for Yedioth Ahronoth, an Israeli daily, and a contributing writer for the New York Times Magazine. The opinions expressed are his own.)

Read more opinion online from Bloomberg View. Subscribe to receive a daily e-mail highlighting new View editorials, columns and op-ed articles.

Uncle giving out its take:
Syria’s Misery

Published: November 2, 2012

As the war continues in Syria, with civilians caught in the stalemate between President Bashar al-Assad’s troops and rebel forces, the United States, the United Nations and others are looking for political ways out. The latest proposal by the Obama administration is pragmatic.

On Wednesday, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton announced that Washington was embarking on its most aggressive effort yet to reshape the Syrian opposition. It has withdrawn support from the Syrian National Council, which was established last year by exiles who have lived abroad for decades, in favor of a new structure that would have heavy representation from Syrians actually fighting in the war. Hundreds of opposition figures are supposed to meet in Qatar next week to discuss this idea.

The Americans’ frustration with the Syrian National Council is understandable. Most of its members are out of touch with what’s really happening in the country. They have been hopelessly divided, incapable of making decisions, and have failed to persuade Syrians that they offer a viable alternative to Mr. Assad.

Since the war began, scores of new local opposition organizations have sprung up in Syria. They are much better positioned to help the United States and other donors direct humanitarian and other assistance. They also offer a better chance of reaching out to those who still back Mr. Assad — especially the military — and persuading them to abandon him in favor of a new order. Mrs. Clinton has acknowledged that she has recommended individuals and organizations to be part of the new leadership structure. But there is a risk that the new group could be seen as an American-made entity. The rebels would have more support if they committed to marginalizing the jihadists who have joined the fight. If there is a deal in Doha, the United States and its partners are prepared to help quickly carry out assistance projects. Congress should support the administration in this effort.

China also weighed in with a proposal this week that seeks to end the conflict with a phased-in truce. The plan differs little from the initiative of the United Nations peace envoy, which has gotten nowhere. Beijing undoubtedly feels uneasy about how its support for Mr. Assad has soured relations with Arab governments. But it still refuses to join Western and Arab nations in pressuring him to give up power.

Syria army quits base on strategic Aleppo road

The Syrian army abandoned its last base near the northern town of Saraqeb after a fierce assault by rebels, further isolating the strategically important second city Aleppo from the capital.

But in a political setback to forces battling to topple President Bashar al-Assad, the United Nations said the rebels appeared to have committed a war crime after seizing the base.

The opposition Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said on Friday government troops had retreated from a post northwest of Saraqeb, leaving the town and surrounding areas "completely outside the control of regime forces".

It was not immediately possible to verify the reported army withdrawal. Authorities restrict journalists' access in Syria and state media made no reference to Saraqeb.

The pullout followed coordinated rebel attacks on Thursday against three military posts around Saraqeb, 50 km (30 miles) southwest of Aleppo, in which 28 soldiers were killed.

Several were shown in video footage being shot after they had surrendered.

"The allegations are that these were soldiers who were no longer combatants. And therefore, at this point it looks very likely that this is a war crime, another one," U.N. human rights spokesman Rupert Colville said in Geneva.

"Unfortunately this could be just the latest in a string of documented summary executions by opposition factions as well as by government forces and groups affiliated with them, such as the shabbiha (pro-government militia)," he said.

Video footage of the killings showed rebels berating the captured men, calling them "Assad's dogs", before firing round after round into their bodies as they lay on the ground.

Rights groups and the United Nations say rebels and forces loyal to President Bashar al-Assad have committed war crimes during the 19-month-old conflict. It began with protests against Assad and has spiraled into a civil war which has killed 32,000 people and threatens to drag in regional powers.

The mainly Sunni Muslim rebels are supported by Sunni states including Saudi Arabia, Qatar and neighboring Turkey. Shi'ite Iran remains the strongest regional supporter of Assad, who is from the Alawite faith which is an offshoot of Shi'ite Islam.

STRATEGIC BLOW

Saraqeb lies at the meeting point of Syria's main north-south highway, linking Aleppo with Damascus, and another road connecting Aleppo to the Mediterranean port of Latakia.

With areas of rural Aleppo and border crossings to Turkey already under rebel control, the loss of Saraqeb would leave Aleppo city further cut off from Assad's Damascus powerbase.

Any convoys using the highways from Damascus or the Mediterranean city of Latakia would be vulnerable to rebel attack. This would force the army to use smaller rural roads or send supplies on a dangerous route from Al-Raqqa in the east, according to the Observatory's director, Rami Abdelrahman.

In response to the rebels' territorial gains, Assad has stepped up air strikes against opposition strongholds, launching some of the heaviest raids so far against working class suburbs east of Damascus over the last week.

The bloodshed has continued unabated despite an attempted ceasefire, proposed by join U.N.-Arab League envoy Lakhdar Brahimi to mark last month's Muslim holiday of Eid al-Adha.

In the latest in a string of fruitless international initiatives, China called on Thursday for a phased, region-by-region ceasefire and the setting up of a transitional governing body - an idea which opposition leaders hope to flesh out at a meeting in Qatar next week.

Veteran opposition leader Riad Seif has proposed a structure bringing together the rebel Free Syrian Army, regional military councils and other rebel forces alongside local civilian bodies and prominent opposition figures.

His plan, called the Syrian National Initiative, calls for four bodies to be established: the Initiative Body, including political groups, local councils, national figures and rebel forces; a Supreme Military Council; a Judicial Committee and a transitional government made up of technocrats.

The initiative has the support of Washington. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called on Wednesday for an overhaul of the opposition, saying it was time to move beyond the troubled Syrian National Council.

The SNC has failed to win recognition as the legitimate representative of the Syrian people and Clinton said it was time to bring in "those on the front lines fighting and dying".

The Syrian National Initiative or transitional govt is basically a quota based system - the cabinet will be: 15 - 25% SNC, 40% oppostion figures from within Syria - mainly military reps, 35% "liberals".

Read more here:
Syrian dissident pushes to unite fragmented opposition

AMMAN (Reuters) - The fragmented Syrian opposition will attempt once again this weekend to forge a common policy to gain international respect, obtain weapons and, most importantly, topple Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, a formerly imprisoned dissident said.

"An alternative to the regime is dearly needed," said Riad Seif, a liberal politician who is battling cancer and managed to leave Syria only a few months ago after having been imprisoned.

"We are talking about a temporary period that begins with forming a political leadership until a national assembly that represents all Syrians meets in Damascus, once Assad falls," Seif said in an interview with Reuters in Amman.

He spoke after talking to opposition figures in advance of a of a meeting of the wider opposition movement in Doha this weekend to form a united front to help end the 19-month uprising against Assad that has claimed more than 32,000 lives, left many parts of the country in ruins and threatens to widen into a regional conflict.

Divisions between Islamists and secularists as well as between those inside Syria and opposition figures based abroad have thwarted prior attempts to forge a united opposition.

On Wednesday, the United States called for an overhaul of the Syrian opposition's leadership, saying it was time to move beyond the Syrian National Council (SNC), the largest of the groupings abroad, and bring in those "in the front lines fighting and dying".

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, signaling a more active stance by Washington in attempts to form a credible political opposition to Assad, said the meeting in Qatar would be an opportunity to broaden the coalition against him.

Unlike previous efforts that failed to come up with a unified leadership, Seif said the Doha assembly will be more inclusive, representing a myriad of religious and activists' groupings as well as more members of Assad's minority Alawite sect and Kurdish political leaders.

Among those Seif met in Amman was former Syrian Prime Minister Riad Hijab, who defected to Jordan three months ago and is playing a major role in the new effort led by Seif.

He also met with Suhair al-Atassi, an organizer of peaceful street demonstrations early in the revolt, and physician Kamal al-Labwani, a long-time political prisoner who is now an outspoken advocate for armed struggle.

"AVOID MORE LOSSES"

"We have 10 million Syrians who need everything from housing to security to public services, and a regime we have to take every possible measure to remove to avoid more losses," Seif said, referring to inhabitants of areas under rebel control or where central authority had collapsed.

The charismatic 66-year old, who has been suffering from cancer for years, is one of Syria's most prominent dissidents.

Having been assaulted by Assad's security forces at a pro-democracy demonstration early in the revolt, he commands respect on the ground as well from opposition figures, whose bickering has undermined the rebellion and made Western and regional powers wary of recognizing the opposition.

While still in Syria, Seif was secretly chosen as a member of the Syrian National Council, which has come in for domestic and international criticism as being under-representative of activists on the ground and dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood.

After leaving Syria early this summer, Seif spent weeks receiving medical treatment in Germany before his condition improved and he began a concerted effort to bring together the disparate opposition groups.

An initiative bearing his name will form the basis of discussions at meetings starting in Doha on Sunday.

A previous large gathering in Cairo in July failed to appoint a committee that would have acted as the opposition's face to the world. But most delegates agreed that Assad had to be toppled and replaced by multi-party democracy. Seif said the Cairo documents remain the opposition's political manifesto.

He proposes the formation of a new, 50-member civilian group that will later chose a temporary government and coordinate with the military wing of the revolt.

He said the 50-member assembly will represent the "effective powers in the revolution" and "be convincing to the Syrian people", adding that efforts were being made to bring the rebels under a unified military command.

Western, Turkish and Arab recognition of the new opposition structure, Seif said, will help channel anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles to the rebels and "decide the battle".

Seif said independent figures, such as Syrian intellectual Sadeq Jalal al-Azm, will be in the group to lend credibility. Representatives of opposition local councils that are providing services in Syria's 14 governates also will be on board.

Opposition sources said the success of Seif's initiative would depend on how much he can resist pressure from the SNC to put more of its members in the new assembly, and reach a consensus on how respond to international initiative to deal with what is increasingly becoming a Syrian civil war.

"There is already talk that most of the members of the new assembly will be from the SNC. If this turns out to be true then Seif's initiative may be doomed to failure," said an SNC member who has been advocating a more representative opposition.

What I reported in December 2011 is now being spoken about:
Syria turmoil stirs Iraqi tribal sympathies, hopes

Wed, Oct 31 10:26 AM EDT
image

By Patrick Markey and Suadad al-Salhy

RAMADI, Iraq (Reuters) - In guesthouses and mosques across Iraq's Anbar province, the talk at Sunni tribal gatherings has turned from the usual debate over local politics to a matter even more pressing - the war next door.

Many people in Iraq's Sunni heartland, once al Qaeda's stronghold in the country, are most concerned with helping their kin. Tribal ties span the border, and Sunni chieftains and community leaders say Iraqi tribes regularly send Syrian relatives food and supplies.

Some openly support Free Syrian Army rebels with arms when border controls allowed.

But many also are anticipating the day when Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is overthrown and replaced by a Sunni regime that will give them a counterweight to Shi'ite power that has grown steadily in Baghdad since the fall of Saddam Hussein.

"Baghdad is helping Assad for sectarian reasons," Sheikh Abdul Rahman Ali, chief of the tribal council in Falluja. "But when Assad goes, we will have a brother regime at our back."

For Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki and other Shi'ite leaders, the prospect of a possibly radical Sunni leader next door is a nightmare scenario. They fear it will embolden the country's own Sunni leaders and could tempt insurgents in Syria to turn their sights on Iraq.

Maliki has tried to walk a delicate line on Syria. He must avoid alienating both his non-Arab ally Shi'ite Iran, who supports Assad, long Tehran's closest supporter in the region, and the United States, as well as Iraq's Sunni Gulf Arab neighbors and Turkey, who support the mostly Sunni rebels.

With Anbar province awash in weapons and the fighting close across a porous border, security concerns are building.

Iraq says Sunni Islamists are crossing into Syria and security experts believe al Qaeda's affiliate in Iraq has been reinvigorated by money and arms from Syria's turmoil.

In a sign Syria's crisis is dragging its neighbors into a proxy war, Iraqi Shi'ite militants are also fighting there, often alongside Assad's troops, claiming fidelity to Iran's supreme religious leader. Iraqi officials and arms dealers acknowledge the intensifying conflict has already spurred demand in weapons markets in Iraq.

Fearing insurgents slipping back across the border, Maliki earlier this year ordered the al Qaim border crossing in Anbar closed, only recently allowing women and children refugees to cross. Army divisions from outside Anbar have reinforced the frontier, where troops occasionally exchange fire with Syrian rebels and smugglers.

His actions have served to stir up resentments in the vast, sparsely populated desert province that makes up a large portion of the 600-km (375-mile) Syrian-Iraqi frontier.

Since the 2003 invasion and rise of the Shi'ite majority through the ballot box, many minority Iraqi Sunnis say they feel sidelined in a power-sharing agreement among the Shi'ite, Sunni and Kurds blocks. They believe Maliki is consolidating his own authority at their expense.

Syria's crisis is worsening those political tensions. At one meeting this month in a Ramadi tribal guesthouse, leaders sat among its red-marble pillars organizing committees to collect money, food and supplies to help Syrian refugees. Tribal meetings now regularly turn to talk about Syria.

"We have asked our tribal sons to support the Syrian people ... they choose the way they find suitable," Sheikh Ali Hatem Sulaiman, the head of the powerful Dulaimi tribe, told Reuters in his Baghdad home.

"Why can Iran and Maliki support a criminal regime, while it is taboo for us to support the Syrian people?"

SOME CAUTION TOO

Anbar's relationship with Baghdad is complex. After initially joining the insurgency against U.S. forces, Sunni tribal leaders turned against al Qaeda and helped form the "Awakening" movement, a loose coalition of fighters who helped turn the tide of the war in 2007.

Tribal leaders say Maliki has failed to keep a promise to incorporate Awakening fighters into the national security forces.

Still, some Anbar leaders believe they must work with Maliki's government or risk losing political influence, and are more cautious about how much to help the Syrian rebels.

"Historically no one has been able to control our borders with Syria," said Anbar governor Qassim Mohammed, who says his frequent disagreements with Maliki over development projects for the province do not stop him working with Baghdad.

"But on the ground, there is no serious military aid going to Syria, there is some humanitarian aid, like medicine and food."

Other tribal leaders reject calls for the province to send arms to their Syrian brethren, remembering the darker days of Iraq's conflict when insurgents used Syria as a base to send suicide bombers into Iraq.

"We just have to watch out for the what kind of evil comes back across," said Sheikh Hameed Turki al-Shook, who heads a tribal council in the provincial capital Ramadi.

POROUS BORDER, GUN SMUGGLING

Arms dealers and Iraqi security officials say prices for Kalashnikovs, sniper rifles and pistols in Iraq have multiplied as much as four times with the growing demand from Syria.

Anbar borders not only Syria but also Saudi Arabia and Jordan, and its remote hillsides, hidden caves and tracks have made the province a haven for smugglers for generations. Contraband even makes its way on barges along the Euphrates river flowing between Iraq and Syria.

"It is not a secret. Demand for weapons started since the Syrian uprising began, and weapons were sent to Anbar and Mosul on their way to Syria," said Qassim, an arms dealer, told Reuters in Baghdad, puffing on a cigarette.

"We know it is going to Syria, we were trying to help them. Our theory is, we should support our Muslim brothers with money and weapons."

National police intelligence reports that indicate Sunni provinces in Iraq are stockpiling weapons for a flare-up in sectarian violence recently prompted four leading Shi'ite religious leaders to issue an edict forbidding arms shipments out of Shi'ite areas.

One senior Iraqi police official said authorities believe young Syrians who took refuge with relatives in Iraq at the beginning of the uprising are being organized and trained inside Iraq to prepare them for the post-Assad era.

That is a change that cannot come soon enough for many in Anbar.

"We will be stronger. Stronger to face to the east, to face the government in Baghdad," said Sheikh Adnan Khames, a Sunni chieftain in Ramadi. "For years they have given us little of what we are entitled to."

3 Syrian tanks have entered the demilitarized zone in the Golan.

--------------------------
And for those interested in Nukliyaar weapons

Turkey and Tactical Nuclear Weapons: A Political Love Affair

Apparently the Israeli's are telling the west - KSA will go nuclear "within weeks" of Iran conducting a test. Turkey will follow within a year.

Enjoy reading....

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 03 Nov 2012 20:47

The Israelis are so scarred that they are scared of peace and think another holocaust is round the corner and the world will just stand by and let it happen to them again. So they go on to invent a new scare crow to start another war.

If KSA and Turkey are imminent to go nuclear if and when Iran gets nukes then why should Israel be bothered? It will lessen their burden of worrying alone about Iran.

They have their nuke s why worry about Irans nukes? all the more if Isarel is nuked as Iran is projected to do the day they have a working bomb the whole of Jordan, Iraq and eventually Iran will taste the fall out.

Israel slept when TSP was getting nukes because at that time it was profitable to uncle and Israel to do business with xerox khan...

It's too late now,
It's just matter of when not if Iran to have a bum of their own.

Worst comes to worst TSP will provide one ready to go both to Iran and KSA and they have given one to Turkey by now.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 03 Nov 2012 21:29

shyamd wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Now we can eavesdrop on the Hamas -Assad hotline too! Eklavaya ji, don't you dare challenge or mock anything that goes against whatever GCC wants to agitprop about - even by quoting articles. Anyone not quoting GCC approved sources is a 5 year old or a child. There is only one claimant to adolescence here who decides on others' adulthood.
LOL! This had nothing to do with challenging the GCC. You are making out I "defended" them, in this case all I did was state mere facts. As usual trying to twist what people say. At least next time come up with somethng credible.

Had to interact with some inflated egos masquerading as medical experts of Saudi origin, some time ago. Anything that went against their tantrums elicited a very similar response. I guess what you are seeing is a result of catching the Saudi infection of the same attitude.
Aahh yes lets stereotype everybody and also you can't even reply about the topic I even spoke about but instead make comments about the person. Unfortunately I am not going to stoop to your level.

What Hamas told Assad, and Assad told Hamas is public knowledge? Your unnamed vague sources in your imagination whose words are constructed out of filching English language extracts of Arabic news media or dierctly from "western" media? Your "mere facts" are typically unsupported "sources", and the news items almost always focus on onlee those that shows either GCC enemies in bad light, or facing imminent reversals, or future/current growth in GCC power.

Under what supreme arrogance and audacity do you claim to have listened in or been told of Hamas-Assad neogotiations and claim that as "mere facts"? Even any public domain source claiming this will be suspect. It is your completely biased and one-sided selective report/constructed info that favours GCC/Saudis - sometimes directly, sometimes slyly - that is "twisting".

You want replies to your unsupported and unverifiable claims?

Do you know that this type of intel speculation that you indulge in is actually good fodder to laugh about among those whose profession it is to analyze such claims?

As for stereotyping - surely you have not forgotten how you stereotytped the Jews - when you lied repeatedly about Muslim treatment of Jews? I can understand that you would naturally get angry at any criticism of the Saudis, while you do not protest any stereotyping of their perceived enemies. But is it tactically beneficial to identify so closely with the Saudis? Saudi cause might be better served by anyone wishing to do so - if they pretend neutrality at least?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 03 Nov 2012 21:38

pentaiah wrote: Israel slept when TSP was getting nukes because at that time it was profitable to uncle and Israel to do business with xerox khan...

right, so now we are venting our impotent rage at Israel for "keeping quiet" when Pakis got nukes....what was India doing then? it was much later that India realized that TSP was getting nukes from PRC. when TSP actually started getting those nukes, India was "keeping quiet" just as Pakis were. also, at that time, India had no formal or official channel with the Israelis. our Nehruvian regime did not even have formal diplomatic relations with Israel. you expect Israel to basically fight for our interests when our leaders, in their supreme arrogance, don't even acknowledge them as a formal state with its own rights?!?!

it's amazing how people find the most twisted reasons to "stick it to the Jews".

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 03 Nov 2012 22:19

Devesh ji

Lets not pretend to be more loyal than king.

Israel does what is in its best interest and so should India.

The above narration of mine is factual and what I perceive at this juncture of historical times.

Another half a dozen nations with a half bum to full bums is not going to change anything.
Actually Argentina, Brazil, SoKo Japan etc are de facto nuke power with about 1/2 to 1 turn screw ok screw thread away from coming out of the closet.

So for heavens sake stop the self flagellation and proceed with more astute observations than adding motives or reading more than what is implied or tax imagination when none is required.
Thanks

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 03 Nov 2012 22:29

pentaiah wrote:Devesh ji

Lets not pretend to be more loyal than king.

Israel does what is in its best interest and so should India.

The above narration of mine is factual and what I perceive at this juncture of historical times.

Another half a dozen nations with a half bum to full bums is not going to change anything.
Actually Argentina, Brazil, SoKo Japan etc are de facto nuke power with about 1/2 to 1 turn screw ok screw thread away from coming out of the closet.

So for heavens sake stop the self flagellation and proceed with more astute observations than adding motives or reading more than what is implied or tax imagination when none is required.
Thanks

who is arguing against Indian interests here? I certainly am not. on the specific question of Iranian nukes, I have no idea how it will effect India. on BRF, neither those who subscribe to the anti-Iranian-nukes position or those who support Iran nuclearizing have clearly laid out how India will be effected in either scenario. on that question, I have no opinion. I honestly don't know how Iran nuclearizing will effect India, so I cannot and will not take a stand on the Iran-Israel nuke issue. but I am open to learning. if somebody can tell me the positive effects for India wrt Iran nuclearizing, I'm all ears. until then, I have absolutely no opinion on the matter.

but my above post was addressing the need to vent anger at Israel "keeping quiet" when Pakis got nukes. that statement itself is illogical and makes no sense. when India did not even have the courtesy of acknowledging the Yehudi State, why do we expect them to fight for what is essentially our interests?!?! I'd like an honest answer for this. if the reverse happened to India where some other state did not even acknowledge us as a formal state with our own sovereignty and rights, would we take it upon ourselves to fight for their interests? the impotent rage at Israel "keeping quiet" is the same old syndrome of venting at the "cunning Jews" for all and sundry reasons that have no relation to reality other than one's own constructed imaginations.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 03 Nov 2012 22:39

Okay so lets see what you have to say:

brihaspati wrote: What Hamas told Assad, and Assad told Hamas is public knowledge? Your unnamed vague sources in your imagination whose words are constructed out of filching English language extracts of Arabic news media or dierctly from "western" media?

All conspirajeee onleee like Zaid Hamid... can't even get your story straight.

Your "mere facts" are typically unsupported "sources", and the news items almost always focus on onlee those that shows either GCC enemies in bad light, or facing imminent reversals, or future/current growth in GCC power.

bla bla bla more unsupported allegations.... I said Syria was going to kick off - it did. Then they said it is nothing but a storm in a tea cup - it was proven it wasn't. I said weapons are getting through against what the media said - then all of a sudden Damascus and others kick off and magically there are weapons. I said Anbar is being used to transfer weapons in December 2011 - you can see above in reuters talking about it... goes on and on...

Under what supreme arrogance and audacity do you claim to have listened in or been told of Hamas-Assad neogotiations and claim that as "mere facts"?

What does "supreme arrogance" have anything to do with it? And you can actually read the post where I spoke about it many months back.

Even any public domain source claiming this will be suspect. It is your completely biased and one-sided selective report/constructed info that favours GCC/Saudis - sometimes directly, sometimes slyly - that is "twisting".

Rich coming from you..

And lets just ignore all the anti GCC stuff I've posted. All I say is what is happening in the region and going to happen. End of story.

You want replies to your unsupported and unverifiable claims?

I thought you said you could mine what I say from arabic newj and now you are saying they are unsupported?

Its supported when it gets proven right when an article gets posted on the subject - time and time again.

As for stereotyping - surely you have not forgotten how you stereotytped the Jews - when you lied repeatedly about Muslim treatment of Jews? I can understand that you would naturally get angry at any criticism of the Saudis, while you do not protest any stereotyping of their perceived enemies. But is it tactically beneficial to identify so closely with the Saudis? Saudi cause might be better served by anyone wishing to do so - if they pretend neutrality at least?

Lol!! Again more unsubstantiated allegations, its not my fault you can't see the articles that I post that is not at all in the interest of the GCC.

Borrrinnnggg....

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 03 Nov 2012 22:49

Devesh ji

Israel should have acted against TSP not out of love for India, but its own survival which they often cite as threatened and at peril every moment.

The fact remains that TSP xerox khan sold his wares to Iran, Libya, and god knows to how many more...
Ok xerox khan was very benevolent and according NPA Ayatollahs even India bought centrifuges from xerox khan Walmart...

You have not argued against India but lament the fact that India did not act on its on and my post suggests according to you that I was regretting Israel not acting or wanting Israel to act on our behalf
Which is no where implied even in the remote....

Israel which believes in uprooting and tackling the root cause of any threat to it , ignored TSP xerox khan selling the wares to one and all.

The super duper Mossad which can as much foresee events as yahowah can fore see or fore tell
Sadly missed the simple conjecture of Iran and Arabs have the oil money and the hatered of Jewish nation, to seek and procure the samson option ( ok Salad_in sword )and TSP was cohort in this hatered

How come? Well it suited at that time TSP to be nuclear power and there was money to make
That's then this is now.

Israel knows how to care of itself and we should not get worked up or sucked up in this cat and mouse game.

Iran becoming nuclear is the best thing for India and Israel to come closer and it's also good for India because Iran will appease India to wean away from Israel.

But the baboons in Nai delli are better in khumba Karan mode...

Chalo Israel zindabad if that makes Devesh ji happy
I too like to think like Israelis on occasions but you see the dharmic in me mimics ..

Ok I won't go dharmo in thermo discussion as it might lead to fission ....

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 03 Nov 2012 23:11

Astagfirullah one mahashay says Israel Zindabad while another always ends with GCC Zindabad and Israel is finished, what about India Zindabad?

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 03 Nov 2012 23:22

For India zinda is not bad the invisible hand will take care of it as usual

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 04 Nov 2012 01:09

^^^^^

Israel approached India in the 1980s and offered us support to do to Kahuta what the Israelis had done to Osirak. Due to fear of US retaliation (political / economic / more aid for Pakistan), Rajiv Gandhi backed out. Sad but true ....

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 04 Nov 2012 01:28

Ah Shyamd ji,
just because you are sympathetic to the GCC cause does not mean you have to leave your brains behind with them - what makes you think whatever the Arab press drops - is the "truth"? Such "reports of exchanges" between Hamas and Assad - is "unverifiable", even if it comes from the Saudi royal family.

Yes "mining" your - "my source told me" stuff do link up with Arabic sources translated into western languages. It was quite clear from early on that you do not have much grasp of Arabic yourself. If you post a hundred news item quoted from local or global news papers - a small fraction will turn out to be consistent with what happened, but claiming that as "mere facts" is booooring!

Say you are quoting from regional news outlets - fine! The other pretensions - thats childish, really!

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 04 Nov 2012 02:02

eklavya wrote:^^^^^

Israel approached India in the 1980s and offered us support to do to Kahuta what the Israelis had done to Osirak. Due to fear of US retaliation (political / economic / more aid for Pakistan), Rajiv Gandhi backed out. Sad but true ....

That is a very romantic folk story soothing to the ears but only story it was.

If Israel truly perceived that TSP was a threat to it , there is no concurrence required by India or facilitation by India.

Israel was lulled into by uncle , as PRC and unkil themselves were busy bolstering TSP nukes.

To make the best hay out of situation Israel might have used TSP potential threat to milk uncle even more....

You see you got make as much as you can in any which way you can
That is true raajanethi propagated by chanikyans but well practiced by Israelis the ever realists

So lets not think countries have eagletarian goals

During the height of 2002 crisis between India and TSP, from cook to crooks suggested that India and TSP talk to sort out things even Israeli PM at that time suggested talks

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 04 Nov 2012 02:10

sorry, but the notion that Pakis pose an "existential threat" to Israel is nonsense. the US/Brits have enough levers on Pakis to keep them on a leash. Israel is too important for the US for them to keep quiet if Pakis pose such threat to the Yehudis. Israel had no reason to and still doesn't have a reason to perceive Pakistan as an "existential threat" like they do the Hezbollah (an Iran sponsored Jihadi org) or Iran's mullahs. when dealing with Israel, we have common interests on the broader Islamic front, and the way to go about exploiting that common interest is to help them deal with their version of the Jihadi threat and in turn expect them to help in our version of the Jihadi threat. without doing our part in eliminating the Jihadis, we can never hope or expect others to cooperate with us in eliminating those versions of Jihad which threaten us. this is simple reality.

and quite frankly if Israel had done some kind of a surgical op on Paki nukes, it would have been an embarrassment for India. if we, with all our military might, and all our politicians' rhetoric of "not wearing bangles", had sat quietly while a small nation of the Mediterranean coast was doing our cleanup job, we have no right to claim superiority in our muhalla or anywhere beyond. WE HAVE TO BE THE ONES TO TAKE OUT PAKI NUKES. WE HAVE TO BE THE ONES TO CALL PAKI NUKE BLUFF. otherwise, we will remain in the second fiddle for a long long long time to come.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 Nov 2012 02:12

SNC and state dept in negotiations before the opposition conference tomorrow. SNC making pre conditions and other demands

--------
Iran just announced suspension of 20% enrichment uranium per the news

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 04 Nov 2012 02:42

pentaiah wrote:
eklavya wrote:^^^^^

Israel approached India in the 1980s and offered us support to do to Kahuta what the Israelis had done to Osirak. Due to fear of US retaliation (political / economic / more aid for Pakistan), Rajiv Gandhi backed out. Sad but true ....
That is a very romantic folk story soothing to the ears but only story it was.

If Israel truly perceived that TSP was a threat to it , there is no concurrence required by India or facilitation by India.

Israel was lulled into by uncle , as PRC and unkil themselves were busy bolstering TSP nukes.

To make the best hay out of situation Israel might have used TSP potential threat to milk uncle even more....

You see you got make as much as you can in any which way you can
That is true raajanethi propagated by chanikyans but well practiced by Israelis the ever realists

So lets not think countries have eagletarian goals

During the height of 2002 crisis between India and TSP, from cook to crooks suggested that India and TSP talk to sort out things even Israeli PM at that time suggested talks

Geography. Israeli F-16s cannot get to Kahuta from Israel. Range is finite. Israel offered us the special munitions required to penetrate the concrete/steel protection of the reactor. Israel offered to work with IAF to perfect ingress, egress and bombing technique. Rajiv and his advisers said no.

Exactly what about the above is "soothing to the ears"? I personally am "seething" ...

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 04 Nov 2012 02:45

Everything is nonsense till it makes sense
No problem you have time in your hand

Who ever thought
Vietnam and US would have trade relations and very soon
Most flavored nations treaty between them
Who ever thought PRC would get MNF status
Who ever thought PRC and Vietnam would fight war
Who ever thought Israel would supply spares for tomcats of Iran
Who ever thought Saddam and dick Cheney would hug only to be at each other throats

Who ever thought unkil would be dumb to pump money into TSP
Even after OBL was right under the musharough of TSP Army

Take time your nonsense will turn into aha moment and I will not bet against your intelligence any day
What you say

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 04 Nov 2012 02:47

The soothing part is to beleive some one other than Indians are ready to take the burden of the beast

Seething won't help see things might

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 04 Nov 2012 02:58

^^^^

There are areas where vital interests overlap, where action is mutually beneficial; in such matters, forming partnerships is the essence of statecraft. On Kahuta in the 1980s, India missed the chance. But Rajiv was inexperienced, nor very clever, and surrounded by numbskulls ... ended up with IPKF fiasco, Brasstacks fiasco, etc etc

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/mcnair41/41ind.htm

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Nov 2012 04:48

ekalavya, The story is just that. The Paki nukes are not from their whirling dervishes/centrifuges. They are actual transfers from PRC with US looking other way. So all that bombing wont do any good for India. So what India did was to operationalize the nukes.* RG was the last PM that finally gave the go ahead.
If you bomb them without having the ability to retaliate with nukes when they have imported nukes its a Kalidasa move.

*US knows the answer to nukes is nukes. That is why when TSP test fired the NoKo obtained Ghauri in 1998, they wanted India not to respond with a nuke test but answer with some Agony missile. US knows that Ghauri operationalizes the TSP arsenal : nuke from PRC + long range missile from NoKo.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 Nov 2012 04:51

@Dr_Ulrichsen: Kuwait's (unelected) PM says no permit has been granted for Sunday's protest and will use force against it if necessary http://t.co/rzOM8gGI

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 04 Nov 2012 08:15

pentaiah wrote:The soothing part is to beleive some one other than Indians are ready to take the burden of the beast

Seething won't help see things might

exactly. so why is Israel "keeping quiet" on Paki nukes an issue here? it is completely irrelevant b/c Israel is irrelevant to this discussion. they have absolutely nothing to do with Pakis. at best, they are peripheral players who are simply going along with the powers that be. if some other power gives them a better hand, they'll follow the lead of that power.

Israel is irrelevant to this discussion. my point begins and ends there. no point adding another fake dimension when there is none.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 04 Nov 2012 08:39

Last time slowly read and comprehend if possible.

Iran becoming nuke power has to do with TSP
Israel is concerned about Iran
Iran obtained technology form Xerox Kahn
Xerox Khan was encouraged in his dalliance with selling at Everyday Low Price Nuke Walmart
right under the nose of Israel and Unkil.

The IR1 centrifuge used at Natanz is based on a 1950s Dutch design that Pakistani scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan stole and sold to the Iranians. The machine is prone to crashing, and it was quickly abandoned by other countries that used it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01689.html[/size]

Perhaps the most secretive part of the Stuxnet story centers on how the theory of cyberdestruction was tested on enrichment machines to make sure the malicious software did its intended job.

The account starts in the Netherlands. In the 1970s, the Dutch designed a tall, thin machine for enriching uranium. As is well known, A. Q. Khan, a Pakistani metallurgist working for the Dutch, stole the design and in 1976 fled to Pakistan.

The resulting machine, known as the P-1, for Pakistan’s first-generation centrifuge, helped the country get the bomb. And when Dr. Khan later founded an atomic black market, he illegally sold P-1’s to Iran, Libya, and North Korea.

The P-1 is more than six feet tall. Inside, a rotor of aluminum spins uranium gas to blinding speeds, slowly concentrating the rare part of the uranium that can fuel reactors and bombs.

How and when Israel obtained this kind of first-generation centrifuge remains unclear, whether from Europe, or the Khan network, or by other means. But nuclear experts agree that Dimona came to hold row upon row of spinning centrifuges.

“They’ve long been an important part of the complex,” said Avner Cohen, author of “The Worst-Kept Secret” (2010), a book about the Israeli bomb program, and a senior fellow at the Monterey Institute of International Studies. He added that Israeli intelligence had asked retired senior Dimona personnel to help on the Iranian issue, and that some apparently came from the enrichment program.

[url]http://warincontext.org/2011/01/16/what ... r-network/[/url]

Finally TSP is much more enemy of Israel than India's.

Pakistan-based Islamist group Lashkar-e-Toiba have also expressed antisemitic views. They have declared the Jews to be "Enemies of Islam", Israel to be the "Enemy of Pakistan".[4]
Military leaflets have been dropped over Waziristan to urge the tribesmen to beware of foreigners and their local supporters who had allied themselves with the "Yahood Aur Hanood". Tribesmen who read the leaflets were wondering over the use of the word "Yahood Aur Hanood" to describe the enemy in the leaflets. Most thought it meant the Jews worldwide and the dominant Hindus of India.[5]
The U.S. State Department's first Report on Global Anti-Semitism finds an increase in antisemitism in Pakistan.[6] In Pakistan, a country without Jewish communities, antisemitic sentiment fanned by antisemitic articles in the press is widespread.[7] Pakistan refuses to recognize Israel as a legitimate state[8] on account of their sympathies with the Arabs in the Arab-Israeli conflict.
A substantial number of people in Pakistan believe that the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center in New York were a secret Jewish conspiracy organized by Israel's MOSSAD, as were the 7 July 2005 London bombings, allegedly perpetrated by Jews in order to discredit Muslims. Such allegations echo traditional antisemitic theories.[9][10] The Jewish religious movement of Chabad Lubavich had an mission house in Mumbai, India that was attacked in the 2008 Mumbai attacks, perpetrated by militants connected to Pakistan led by Ajmal Kasab.[11][12] Antisemitic intents were evident from the testimonies of Kasab following his arrest and trial.[13]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Pakistan[/url]

Also remember the TSP terrorists were directed to Israeli residences in Mumbai Massacre....

a little more masala
read this from our own Raw Mango Man

4. When Z.A. Bhutto and other Pakistani leaders projected the Pakistani atomic bomb as the Islamic bomb to Saudi Arabia, Libya and Iran, they emphasised the following:

Pakistan would hold the bomb in its custody on behalf of the Islamic Ummah as a whole.
The bomb would be available for use, if need be, not only against India, but also against Israel.
If any of the funding countries (Saudi Arabia, Libya and Iran) felt the need for developing their own independent nuclear capability to protect themselves against Israel, Pakistan would be happy to assist them by training their scientists in Pakistani nuclear establishments, by sharing its technology and experience with them and by placing at their disposal its clandestine nuclear procurement network.
5. In pursuance of this agreement, teams of nuclear scientists of Saudi Arabia , Libya and Iran had been regularly visiting Pakistan since the 1980s for being trained in its nuclear establishments and for an exchange of views with Pakistani scientists. Dr.A. Q.Khan, the so-called father of Pakistan's atomic bomb, had been regularly visiting these countries to assist them. Pakistan also agreed to help Libya and Iran in setting up an uranium enrichment plant based on the model of its own enrichment facility at Kahuta, which was based on a model from Holland on the basis of drawings stolen by A.Q.Khan, who was working there.

6. Was Pakistan's assistance to Iran and Libya confined to the setting-up of an uranium enrichment facility or did it go beyond to helping them to militarise their capability? Pakistan's own atomic bomb was based on a Chinese model with the help of drawings clandestinely given by China to Islamabad to counter India's perceived nuclear capability. Reliable sources in Pakistan have reported that when Pakistan carried out its nuclear tests at Chagai in May,1998, nuclear scientists from Saudi Arabia and North Korea were present and that one of the devices tested was of North Korean origin. Past reports had spoken of the presence of only North Korean scientists at Chagai, but recent reports speak of the presence of Saudi scientists too in their capacity as the major financiers of the project. They also say that Pakistan shared the Chinese drawings definitely with Iran and Libya.

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/page1193

For ease of comprehension
Dalliance:
1) A casual romantic or sexual relationship.
2) Brief or casual involvement with something:

After all this
I am reminded of a saying

Better untaught than ill taught

It is useless to educate when one can not admire

Chalo fuzzle ki baten and bekar time waste..

No more wasting of bandwidth
Namaskar

PS: Finally this may give you pounding headache keep some advil ready for use after reading. Masal Chai is a concamtitant medication prescribed along with advil to help faster but its just a placebo Clinical trials report.

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline. ... _tmln_iraq

***********
http://www.corbettreport.com/nuclear-am ... eyeopener/

Even more worryingly, Israel’s nuclear knowledge has not only helped to arm its own nation, but actually helped to proliferate nuclear weapons to Pakistan through the so-called Khan network. One of the men who helped to transfer the nuclear triggers used in the construction of the Pakistani bomb was Asher Karni, an orthodox Jew living in South Africa who had been a major in the Israeli army prior to emigrating to Cape Town. Upon his arrival there in 1985, he began teaching Torah at the local synagogue and educating Jewish youth, encouraging them to relocate to Israel.

In 2004, U.S. authorities arrested Karni for his role in supplying the nuclear triggers and in 2005 he was sentenced to three years in prison. It has never been officially explained why this Israeli citizen and former Israeli military officer was interested in helping proliferate nuclear technologies to Pakistan.

*****************
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2005/05/middleman

Triggered spark gaps are unremarkable in appearance—each is a cylinder set atop a four-inch-square black box—and small enough to ﬁt in the pocket of a raincoat. They emit an intense electrical pulse whose timing and duration are controlled to the microsecond. Hospitals use the devices to power lithotripters, which deliver an electrical punch that pounds kidney stones to dust so they can be expelled from the body. That, however, is not their only function. Installed into an enriched uranium casing, a triggered spark gap can ignite a nuclear explosion. Karni, according to the Justice Department, was in the middle of a deal exporting 200 of the devices to a buyer who might use them for just such a purpose. The buyer was Humayun Khan, an Islamabad businessman with close ties to Pakistan’s military and who has been linked by U.S. government officals to militant Islamic groups, some of which are suspected to be arming fighters in the Kashmiri conflict.

.........

For almost two decades, Karni had thrived in Cape Town. In 1985, he resigned his major’s commission with the Israeli army and emigrated to South Africa to work for a Jewish charity serving the Orthodox community in Cape Town. Karni’s ﬁrst four years in the country were spent educating Jewish youth and encouraging them to relocate to Israel, according to an article the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz published shortly after his arrest. He became a respected member of the Beit Midrash congregation, teaching Torah at the synagogue and conducting services when Rabbi Jonathan Altman was out of town. “He is a thoroughly honest, hardworking and responsible person,” South Africa’s chief rabbi, C.K. Harris, wrote to the court after Karni’s arrest. “He enjoys a very good reputation in the Cape Town community, both Jewish and general.”

In 1989, Karni left his ofﬁcial religious duties to take a job with Eagle Technology, a ﬁrm owned and run by one of Cape Town’s leading families, Alan and Diana Bearman and their son, Nathan. With an M.B.A. from an Israeli university, and his military background, Karni was a good ﬁt for the job. Eagle Technology has a storefront off Green Market Square in downtown Cape Town, where it sells to the public high-tech spying devices like surveillance video systems and recording machines; an adjacent outlet, Eagle Appliances, sells espresso makers, electric radiators, and other consumer electronics. But the real action goes on upstairs, where Eagle plies a more serious trade. It specializes in obtaining sophisticated electronic, optical, and other sensitive equipment, originally for the South African military during the long years of the country’s apartheid government, and now for a wide variety of clients in the “new” South Africa. These items became Karni’s specialty.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 04 Nov 2012 09:20

L-e-T is more of an enemy of Israel than India?!?! this is news. you should take this to the BENIS thread. I think forumers have not had enough ammo on that thread for quite some time now. this new piece should definitely help. their biggest and most famous attacks and ops were carried out against India, either on civilians or against military targets, and you think that LeT is more of a problem for Israel than India? I won't even bother addressing any of the other drivel in your post. clearly, you are in the wrong thread.