Swift Action:Ajmal Kasab, hanged at Yerwada jail in Pune

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 26 Nov 2012 23:57

our politicians do not have guts to face the aftermath of a calculated aggression against terrorists in Pakistan. Anyway, we are part of a republic which shows teeth very rarely ....

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 27 Nov 2012 00:01

our actions against pakistan are same as punishing a misbehaving family member. rarely is the stick brought out and also only when the stick is wielded against us. till then, more chances is the strategy.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 27 Nov 2012 08:46

Amitabh wrote:
abhijitm wrote:^ Amitabh, please clear this for me. Shooting down terrorist is acceptable but not the hanging; or both are not acceptable?
I am just making the point that the absence of a death penalty does not imply lack of seriousness to deal with armed insurgencies. Acceptable or unacceptable is a different issue.

Obviously a state has to protect citizens from armed attacks which also involves engaging and sometimes killing those armed attackers. This is recognised by all legal systems. So shooting down terrorist is acceptable if there is no alternative.

This is absurd. I mean it is OK if a terrorist has been shot dead on the spot, but since we caught him alive now we cannot kill him because it is against the humanity! Humanity has to be consistent and not selective or discriminative, don't you think?

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 27 Nov 2012 11:09

abhijitm wrote:
Amitabh wrote:I am just making the point that the absence of a death penalty does not imply lack of seriousness to deal with armed insurgencies. Acceptable or unacceptable is a different issue.

Obviously a state has to protect citizens from armed attacks which also involves engaging and sometimes killing those armed attackers. This is recognised by all legal systems. So shooting down terrorist is acceptable if there is no alternative.
This is absurd. I mean it is OK if a terrorist has been shot dead on the spot, but since we caught him alive now we cannot kill him because it is against the humanity! Humanity has to be consistent and not selective or discriminative, don't you think?

Legal systems routinely discriminate among different form of killing: self-defence is generally considered legitimate, cannibalism is generally considered taboo (to take one example). And societies decide what is acceptable or unacceptable based on their values and points of view (which includes theories such as deterrence, retribution and so on). A majority of countries permits self defence and state military action but rejects the death penalty.

Turns out humanity is selective and discriminative. Otherwise if you can shoot a terrorist why can't you just eat him?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Nov 2012 11:14

Kasab probably doesn't taste well. Thats the reason why the non INC walas in India (who oppress the poor minorities so much per you) didnt eat him..

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 27 Nov 2012 11:44

nachiket wrote:
Amitabh wrote: Israel and Russia both face insurgencies comparable with what we face.
This has to be the most asinine comment on this thread. Israeli and Russian armies can walk into "insurgent territory" whenever they please along with tanks and APCs or even bomb insurgent hideouts from the air. And they do so quite frequently. How many terrorist camps have we bombed in Pakistan? We are facing an insurgency supported and financed by a heavily armed neighbor whose territory is a safe haven for the insurgents and not accessible to our armed forces. Nobody else in the world faces something like this.

Try convincing the Israelis who routinely face rocket fire into their cities and a far greater fraction of whose population is at risk from terror attack at any given moment.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 27 Nov 2012 11:55

Amitabhji, could you please explain the rationale for banning capital punishment? I could not find the explanation in the previous posts (if it was already discussed). Apologies if this has already been discussed.

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 27 Nov 2012 12:24

prahaar wrote:Amitabhji, could you please explain the rationale for banning capital punishment? I could not find the explanation in the previous posts (if it was already discussed). Apologies if this has already been discussed.

Three that I am familiar with are:
(1) It is immoral (religious, philosophical grounds);
(2) It is irreversible (so if you later discover errors that exonerate, too bad);
(3) Its deterrent effect is unproven.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 27 Nov 2012 12:27

Amitabh wrote:
nachiket wrote: This has to be the most asinine comment on this thread. Israeli and Russian armies can walk into "insurgent territory" whenever they please along with tanks and APCs or even bomb insurgent hideouts from the air. And they do so quite frequently. How many terrorist camps have we bombed in Pakistan? We are facing an insurgency supported and financed by a heavily armed neighbor whose territory is a safe haven for the insurgents and not accessible to our armed forces. Nobody else in the world faces something like this.
Try convincing the Israelis who routinely face rocket fire into their cities and a far greater fraction of whose population is at risk from terror attack at any given moment.

And what was Israel's response? They assassinated Hamas' military chief and bombed the crap out of the Palestinians till they stopped the attacks. And here we are, debating the morality of executing a terrorist who was given a fair trial in a court of law and was convicted of mass murder.

member_23834 · Post by **member_23834** » 27 Nov 2012 12:30

Pakistan Ex ISI reacts on Kasabs Hang

this link posted on India Army fans in fb

If you think there's a difference between terrorists & Paki Army, think again. This is an ex ISI Chief speaking..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw3VqBt7aKA

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 27 Nov 2012 13:00

nachiket wrote:
Amitabh wrote: Try convincing the Israelis who routinely face rocket fire into their cities and a far greater fraction of whose population is at risk from terror attack at any given moment.
And what was Israel's response? They assassinated Hamas' military chief and bombed the crap out of the Palestinians till they stopped the attacks. And here we are, debating the morality of executing a terrorist who was given a fair trial in a court of law and was convicted of mass murder.

And here we are, unable to distinguish between self-defence and debates over the form of punishment that is appropriate for after the event.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 Nov 2012 13:31

Amitabh wrote: And here we are, unable to distinguish between self-defence and debates over the form of punishment that is appropriate for after the event.

And which God decided that " punishment that is appropriate for after the event" is not a form of "self-defence". Is self-defence only defined as "wielding a kitchen knife against AK 47"?

This is a false dichotomy, very obvious and blatant.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 27 Nov 2012 13:56

Amitabh wrote:
prahaar wrote:Amitabhji, could you please explain the rationale for banning capital punishment? I could not find the explanation in the previous posts (if it was already discussed). Apologies if this has already been discussed.
Three that I am familiar with are:
(1) It is immoral (religious, philosophical grounds);
(2) It is irreversible (so if you later discover errors that exonerate, too bad);
(3) Its deterrent effect is unproven.

Thanks for the clarification. This explains me why I have personally not been able to justify a freeze on capital punishment. My views about the above three:

1.Immoral: There can never be an argument on this. Morality is always space-time-limited. So basically, what a samaaj thinks at a given place and time is correct, IS moral. In the samaaj I belong to, death penalty is considered moral. It is no-one's business to teach why some other samaaj is more moral because of a certain view.

2.Irreversible: How is spending 40 years in prison reversible?

3.Deterrent unproven: Punishment for a crime is not meted out only for deterrence. In a just samaaj, punishment by itself is the primary objective, deterrence is a welcome by-product.

Propaganda about ban on death penalty in India, is a symptom of western-universalism.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 27 Nov 2012 14:14

There is universal denial about selective ban on death penalty by western countries.

Death penalty in USA is one.

The first world countries pose contradictions that others have to deal with. Such as universal ban on death penalty, etc that the first world countries can not come together to solve in the first place. Instead, others have to have to put up with excuses that "it will be done when it would be dealt with somewhere/sometimes else" and so on when such issues come up - which is part of universal refusal about being selectively clear on such issues by western countries under excuse of Western universalism.

What is the collective behavior in NATO of individual soldiers about terrorism?

Are there rules in NATO, not as a individual member country, but as collective of units, about extra judicial executions?

Are there any rules in Europe and USA about not arming people like pakis, that export terrorism, at the level of private companies and corporations?

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 27 Nov 2012 14:19

Amitabh, you are missing an important point here. That is the morale of the nation. Why should we worry about a barbarian who has waged war against our nation, and ignore to think about what people of India want? I am taking the liberty to speak for majority of Indian population to say that we all wanted Kasab to be hanged. And they still wait to see Afzal being hanged. By not hanging them and wasting crores of money on feeding them, we are bringing the morale of the whole nation down. Today we can proudly say that India is not a soft nation and we have the capability to bring the logical conclusion of such case.

No, keeping him alive is not a logical conclusion. Only killing him is because every time we think of Kasab we are reminded that he killed our people but we are feeding him biryanis. That is rubbing salt on wounds. Ask this to the relatives of the victims of the 26/11. At least now when we think of Kasab we can take the satisfaction that he is no more. We as a nation could never recover from 26/11 till Kasab was alive. Same for parlament attack and Afzal.

Remember, it is not only important to do the justice but it is also important to show that the justice has been done.

Forget about what laws other countries have to counter terrorism. They may or may not have their own means to do it. But why should we ignore our own people's morale?

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 27 Nov 2012 14:43

Amitabh wrote:Legal systems routinely discriminate among different form of killing: self-defence is generally considered legitimate, cannibalism is generally considered taboo (to take one example). And societies decide what is acceptable or unacceptable based on their values and points of view (which includes theories such as deterrence, retribution and so on). A majority of countries permits self defence and state military action but rejects the death penalty.

It is not the matter of values. No body wants to get killed and kill. This 'humanity' propaganda has been started recently by the 'advanced' countries. The same states in their history were ruthless in tackling lawlessness. But now they have gain the upper hand and have enough resources at their disposal so they have started the bandwagon of humanity. It is also a very effective political tool on the developing countries who do not have capacity to indulge in these luxurious maneuvers. India as a developing country must retain its right to eliminate wastage in the extreme cases where its just not worth.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 27 Nov 2012 17:06

Amitabh wrote:
Kersi D wrote: Many countries have abolished detah penalty, can you name them ?
How many of these countries are facing a terror situtation since past 25 year ? NAME THEM.
Since YOU ASKED WELLY LOUDLY:

France
United Kingdom
Colombia
Russia (frozen since 1996, effectively halted 2009)
Israel (limited to cases of high treason and genocide)

P.S. Took me about as long to find this information on Google as it did for you to express your outrage and indignation.

I agree what a moral, religious and compassionate outlook israel has for terrorists:

Bharatvarsh should follow these righteous , just and religious acts of israel.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 27 Nov 2012 17:12

A question to Amitabh

Would you still want it abolished if someone dear to you was killed by kasab

member_23686 · Post by **member_23686** » 27 Nov 2012 17:48

nachiket wrote:
Amitabh wrote: Israel and Russia both face insurgencies comparable with what we face.
This has to be the most asinine comment on this thread. Israeli and Russian armies can walk into "insurgent territory" whenever they please along with tanks and APCs or even bomb insurgent hideouts from the air. And they do so quite frequently. How many terrorist camps have we bombed in Pakistan? We are facing an insurgency supported and financed by a heavily armed neighbor whose territory is a safe haven for the insurgents and not accessible to our armed forces. Nobody else in the world faces something like this.

Amitabh ji is also forgetting that Palestine and Chechnya don't have nooks

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 Nov 2012 18:18

dharmaraj wrote: Amitabh ji is also forgetting that Palestine and Chechnya don't have nooks

Or are supported by Unkil and Aunty, and get Billions of dollars in hand out for military.

In anycase what Amitabh-ji (comparison of terror in India and other countries) is indulging in a massive piece of myth making, the reason I did not put any statistics so far, was because I was fairly sure that no one will take than nonsense seriously. But given that this information is being debated, I present

http://smapp.rand.org/rwtid/search.php
(give search parameters, I set country as of India, Russia or Israel) set injuries greater than 5 and all other types as ALL.

The following also has clear statistics in terms of MASSIVE upshot in terror incidents post the excuse of a government A.K.A Congress/UPA took power. (And we have to note that NDA terror incidents are almost all in Kashmir which they pacified before they handed over power)

Data speaks for itself, as long as one is not wearing blinkers AND dark goggles.

Enjoy.

Russia
1998 68
1999 691
2000 135
2001 152
2002 803
2003 485
2004 1035
2005 36
2006 35
2007 115
2008 180
2009 19

India
1984 19
1987 150
1988 14
1993 1200
1995 30
1996 87
1997 68
1998 309
1999 131
2000 110
2001 237
2002 380
2003 328
2004 298
2005 595
2006 1364
2007 283
2008 1459

Israel
Year Injuries
1968 161
1969 49
1970 92
1971 36
1972 85
1974 190
1975 151
1976 57
1977 92
1978 275
1979 244
1980 30
1981 28
1982 175
1983 55
1984 88
1985 24
1986 95
1987 40
1988 25
1989 27
1990 73
1991 11
1992 19
1993 24
1994 145
1995 214
1996 322
1997 441
1998 83
1999 33
2001 880
2002 1453
2003 763
2004 331
2005 123
2006 77
2008 57
2009 18

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 27 Nov 2012 18:37

Sanku

wasting time

he is going to argue on a per capita basis or some stats massage.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 Nov 2012 18:39

Surya wrote:Sanku

wasting time

he is going to argue on a per capita basis or some stats massage.

True, but.. I would like him to see him fudge the four-fold increase in terror incidents ( and many more fold given that the base was almost zero barring Kashmir) under his beloved UPA on the per capita basis.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Nov 2012 18:55

Surya wrote:he is going to argue on a per capita basis or some stats massage.

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 27 Nov 2012 23:03

kapilrdave wrote:Amitabh, you are missing an important point here. That is the morale of the nation. Why should we worry about a barbarian who has waged war against our nation, and ignore to think about what people of India want? I am taking the liberty to speak for majority of Indian population to say that we all wanted Kasab to be hanged.

Kapil, I am not asking anyone to be concerned about Kasab. You are surely correct that a huge majority of our citizens are perfectly happy to see him hanged and if you support the death penalty then he is the most eligible candidate for it. But the argument against the death penalty does not arise from the easy cases. I am sure no one would be saddened by the execution of Jeffrey Dahmer but that does not mean you have to support the death penalty. Nazi war criminals like Klaus Barbie and genocidal Rwandan leaders among others have been arrested and sentenced to long periods of imprisonment: the morale of their critics does not appear to have dipped because of the absence of the death penalty.

Btw please note that my original claim was not against the death penalty per se (I personally lean towards abolition but have not made up my mind). It was that the absence of death penalty does not mean a lack of seriousness on the anti-terror front on the part of a country.

krishnan wrote:A question to Amitabh
Would you still want it abolished if someone dear to you was killed by kasab

No. But if someone drove a car over someone dear to me I would want to do the same to them but the law does not allow me to do that does it?

Sanku wrote:
Surya wrote:Sanku
wasting time
he is going to argue on a per capita basis or some stats massage.
True, but.. I would like him to see him fudge the four-fold increase in terror incidents ( and many more fold given that the base was almost zero barring Kashmir) under his beloved UPA on the per capita basis.

Correct, Surya, since my original statement re:Israel was clearly a per capita argument if you bother to read it.

As for your alleged imported, CIA-funded, Evanjihadi-tainted, incomplete (ends in 2008) data, let me present some swadeshi, KPS Gill-approved, superdupernationalist Indian information that shows precisely the opposite of what you claim: Not only have total terror casualties in India dropped every year since 2001, they have fallen to about 5 per cent of the level at which they were in the terminal year of your precious NDA. Put that in your pipe and smoke it (as your American overlords would say).

Annual Fatalities in Terrorist Violence 1988-2012 (South Asia Terrorism Portal)

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 Nov 2012 23:10

Amitabh, even for spin, comparing India with J & K, and feeling proud about it.

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... s/[b]jandk[/b]/data_sheets/annual_casualties.htm

Goes beyond the depths of depravity of deception.

I have already said that J&K was pacified by NDA after parakaram and the incidents start dropping.

Seriously the amount of prevarication the UPA supporters indulge in, is amazing!!

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 27 Nov 2012 23:13

That was an innocent mistake; here is the overall data. Guess what, the overall pattern still holds. Casualties in 2011 were a quarter of the NDA level. Sorry NDA supporters!

This chart shows the data till 2010:

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 Nov 2012 23:24

Amitabh wrote:That was an innocent mistake; here is the overall data. Guess what, the overall pattern still holds to 2010. Now casualties have soared to 2/3rds of the NDA level

Let me point out another innocent mistake

1) Fatalities != number of incidents

2) Remove Kashmir from the chart and then see.

Well aware of the level of innocence of the mistakes.

BTW why are you only posting the chart, also post the link where the chart occurred. Let us see the context as well.

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 27 Nov 2012 23:28

Heck why not take out J&K, Naxalite violence and the North East and cherry pick your way to whichever anti-UPA fantasy you like!

(When you disaggregate the data, each of those categories shows the same trend. Oh yes. You got it. Down.)

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 27 Nov 2012 23:32

Accusations of cherry picking are a strawman by a poster in retreat when every opposing post has been attempting to capture the whole picture and not cherry pick anything.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 27 Nov 2012 23:36

Was off for a few days - but a dead paki terrorist became a bad thing in these few days? whoaaa..... far out, man

(That is one dead paki terrorist and will remain so)

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 27 Nov 2012 23:52

Amitabh wrote:That was an innocent mistake; here is the overall data. Guess what, the overall pattern still holds. Casualties in 2011 were a quarter of the NDA level. Sorry NDA supporters!

This chart shows the data till 2010:

Plz dont make it a political discussion or make an absurd comparision. Neither UPA or NDA have wits to deal with terrorism.
Simple fact is that during 26/11, congress was sleeping and hours later called upon NSG when babus told them to do so, OTOH NDA panicked after parliament attacks . These dhotis/lungis cant even clean their bathrooms, forget about creating a strategy against terrorism.
ps.. You will also get the same curve worldwide, because global terror is decreasing, but still have a potential to bounce back if porkis arre not cleaned

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 28 Nov 2012 00:00

correct, Surya, since my original statement re:Israel was clearly a per capita argument if you bother to read it.

Amitabh

I don't need to read everything you post. once you label the Indian state the way you did - I tuned off. After all you have the upper hand in such matters

I was responding to Sanku's post.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 28 Nov 2012 01:24

(While I don't usually comment on such threads because one post invites 5 outraged replies and it becomes exceedingly hard to persist with it, what the heck..)

Can't see anything wrong with Amitabh's original premise: whether a country executes an individual or not, has little bearing on how determined it is towards tackling terrorism. However proactive Israel may be in taking lethal action against terrorists abroad, judicial executions are exceedingly rare.

As far as the political aspect is concerned, fact is the UPA and NDA have near identical outlooks when it comes to foreign policy. As a matter of fact it is to the credit of the both parties at the centre that when it comes to national security they have each done what was necessary (even if that meant exercising restraint instead of force). And while we may admire Israeli tactics and American surgical operations, fact is, decades later Israel is still living under a constant threat of bombs and rockets and after over 10 years of US military operations, the situation in Afghanistan is worse than ever. We may be not as slick and we may not have as much Kevlar to go around, but our record is far better. The insurgency in the NE is flagging, that in Kashmir is practically over, and the one in Punjab has been all but buried. The Naxals have suffered serious reverses and incidences involving terrorism are at all time low. All achieved without any hoopla.

That said, I can't recall BRFites being anywhere as critical about the NDA govt as they are about the UPA govt when it comes to security. After all, the '99 Lahore Declaration followed an intense stand-off in '98. The 2001 Agra Summit followed the betrayal at Kargil. A blind eye was turned to the Naxals and relations with Pakistan steadily improved despite a string of bombings across India. The beauty of it is, if tomorrow the current govt were to collapse and be replaced by the NDA, foreign and security policy would remain unchanged whether its related to Siachen, Kashmir, NE, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Iran or China. Then again, members of defence forums universally tend to lean right regardless of their nationality, so maybe I shouldn't be that surprised.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Nov 2012 02:03

Viv S wrote:Can't see anything wrong with Amitabh's original premise:

Because his original premise was that Israel, Russia and India are in similar situation w.r.t. terror and therefore if Israel or Russia does not execute terrorists, India should not as well.

If the tragic comedy of this comparison is not immediately obvious to you, let me list what other BRFiets have tried hard to convey

India does not face the same threat as Russia or Israel from terror since
0) Size, scale and scope facing India is massively beyond any of these two.
1) Not fomented by a nuke armed rouge state.
2) Posses asymmetric force w.r.t. terror locations
3) Possess the ability to go in and hit terror bases.
etc etc etc.

If the above was not enough to see what was obviously rotten (forget wrong) with that ridiculous premise. He goes to not seek the need for India to be like Israel in other ways.
1) We should emulate these only partially, i.e. only not execute Paki scum, but also not be like Israel in punishing them
2) We should be "secular" unlike these countries which openly state the ideological bases of terror facing them.

Khair, in addition, he proposes that executing Kasab is "inhumane" in his view. Which was very refreshing change from the rest of the blood thirsty mob here.

That said, I can't recall BRFites being anywhere as critical about the NDA govt as they are about the UPA govt when it comes to security.

Because UPA sucks, big time. It is as simple as that. And no amount of lipstick is going to make this pig beautiful.

No other complicated CTs and piskological reasoning for "mob of BRFites" and labeling is needed. UPAs record is stellar. Period.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 28 Nov 2012 02:33

Sanku wrote:Because his original premise was that Israel, Russia and India are in similar situation w.r.t. terror and therefore if Israel or Russia does not execute terrorists, India should not as well.

I'll let him clarify what he meant.

If the tragic comedy of this comparison is not immediately obvious to you, let me list what other BRFiets have tried hard to convey

If the above was not enough to see what was obviously rotten (forget wrong) with that ridiculous premise. He goes to not seek the need for India to be like Israel in other ways.
1) We should emulate these only partially, i.e. only not execute Paki scum, but also not be like Israel in punishing them
2) We should be "secular" unlike these countries which openly state the ideological bases of terror facing them.

Again, I doubt he'd agree with with your interpretation of what he said vis-a-vis what was implied. I'll leave that part to him.

Khair, in addition, he proposes that executing Kasab is "inhumane" in his view. Which was very refreshing change from the rest of the blood thirsty mob here.

All morality is relative as it is an ideal punishment. Many have called for a public hanging. Others might like to see him stoned to death or burnt alive. Who knows, maybe the worst punishment was been solitary confinement for the rest of his life.

Because UPA sucks, big time. It is as simple as that.

Sure. I mean as long as their actual actions and record vis-a-vis security is immaterial...

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 28 Nov 2012 02:43

(While I don't usually comment on such threads because one post invites 5 outraged replies and it becomes exceedingly hard to persist with it, what the heck..)

A nice rhetorical flourish to try to slyly suggest how we are uncivilized brutes and you are the neutral judge above all the bickering. Nice try.

Ah whenever MMS is on the defensive, which in the last three years seems to be always - their supporters come out using a shoot and scoot strategy. I would say that there is such a large difference between NDA and UPA on foreign policy and national security. Their supporters seem to rely on the repetitive and clique based network who quote selective facts and use suppression of opposite view by trying to tar every one with Sonia clique's flaws to all so as to keep the dynasty in power.

I guess NDA and UPA dont have any difference with respect to Afzal guru nor with respect to POTA nor with respect to the Gujarat crime bill. There is ofcourse no difference in strategy with UPA/NDA with regard to the Salwa Judum. Of course no one should even mention that the Sonia's and congress general secretary and Rahul's guru comments about Osama ji or his comments on what Kasab was during the mumbai event or his comments about how a police inspector was killed. I am sorry that such a traitor (legally defensible by the way) hob nobs with MMS/Sonia/ Rahul day in day out tells me more than enough to know what they are.

The difference was the Agra summit two years after kargil made sure India wouldnt budge even after sweet talk by Mushy and at the end, India (ruled by NDA) didnt sign any agreement which negated India's position on terrorism even if it meant failure of summit itself. The operation parakram was a strategic success. The winds of the pakistani terrorism in kashmir was removed after India (under NDA) forced Musharraf to publicly accept that they cannot continue terrorist support at that level. So we observe a sharp drop in terrorist incidents in Kashmir after the success of operation parakram.

I will not even try to talk about Sharm-al-Sheik where India (ruled by UPA) signed away the principle was terror could be used without repurcussions any where else. That the signing away at the end was paused because of Mumbai attack is a different story. Today the "composite dialogue" works under the Sharm-al-Sheik statement that Pakistan's terrorism will not have any effect on other issues. That is why Pakistan can and will continue to throw all Indian dossiers from Sonia Gandhi or Chidambaram as toilet paper. After the flurry of India-israeli diplmacy during NDA, there has been a huge drop in the diplomatic traffic. Apart from Krishna's visit this year, I dont know of any high level visits from 2006.

And by the way, nobody would have dared to mention Siachen as territory "where no blade grows" during NDA. Fernandez was visiting Siachen soldiers day in and day out. We have public and official support to these back stabbing traitors (again legally defensible) under Sonia clique.

Simply saying a declaration was signed doesnt cut it, A declaration that sun rises in the east by whoever in whatever situation, doesnt mean much. Here is the lahore declaration. Tell me the parts which give you takleef.
http://www.usip.org/files/file/resource ... 990221.pdf

Where as the Sharm-al-Sheik even according to the then NSA, who was part of team who drafted it, MK Narayan was 'badly drafted', where terror as a manipulative tool on India was accepted.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 28 Nov 2012 02:49

Viv S wrote: That said, I can't recall BRFites being anywhere as critical about the NDA govt as they are about the UPA govt when it comes to security.

Oh they did and still do! I find it unfortunate that there are threads in this forum, that refer to one of India's finest PMs and BJP's tallest leaders, Shree AB Vajpayee as a "windbag". So you are a bit off there

Otherwise, I dont see this urge to see party lines in the hanging of a paki terrorist? Government of India executed justice as ordained by the judiciary. There is nothing more nothing less. We got to move on and seek more of these low lives for standing trial.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Nov 2012 02:58

Viv S wrote: I'll let him clarify what he meant.

Funny that the thought did not occur to you BEFORE you jumped in the fray.

Because UPA sucks, big time. It is as simple as that.
Sure. I mean as long as their actual actions and record vis-a-vis security is immaterial...

No dearest because of their actions, and that of their apologists to add to it. Blaming the BRFites is not going to cut it.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 28 Nov 2012 02:59

hnair wrote:
Viv S wrote: That said, I can't recall BRFites being anywhere as critical about the NDA govt as they are about the UPA govt when it comes to security.
Oh they did and still do! I find it unfortunate that there are threads in this forum, that refer to one of India's finest PMs and BJP's tallest leaders, Shree AB Vajpayee as a "windbag". So you are a bit off there

Otherwise, I dont see this urge to see party lines in the hanging of a paki terrorist? Government of India executed justice as ordained by the judiciary. There is nothing more nothing less. We got to move on and seek more of these low lives for standing trial.

Because it exposed the intellectual bankruptucy of why Afzal Guru wasnt hanged which is the logical next step and on that there is a clean divide along political lines.

One side, the ruling Sonia led UPA, has shown that it was willing to sacrifice national security for vote banks in the short term. The question now is whether one side respects the democratic symbols over their vote banks finally at the end of the day. Afzal Guru was after all convicted in the attack on the Indian parliament, the national symbol of democracy.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 28 Nov 2012 03:00

Samay wrote:
Amitabh wrote:That was an innocent mistake; here is the overall data. Guess what, the overall pattern still holds. Casualties in 2011 were a quarter of the NDA level. Sorry NDA supporters!

This chart shows the data till 2010:
Plz dont make it a political discussion or make an absurd comparision. Neither UPA or NDA have wits to deal with terrorism.
Simple fact is that during 26/11, congress was sleeping and hours later called upon NSG when babus told them to do so, OTOH NDA panicked after parliament attacks . These dhotis/lungis cant even clean their bathrooms, forget about creating a strategy against terrorism.
ps.. You will also get the same curve worldwide, because global terror is decreasing, but still have a potential to bounce back if porkis arre not cleaned

My intention is not to take the discussion OT, but putting all the blame on Dhoti/Lungi is not objective. Many PANTS were either below the knees or wet/yellow.