Indian Interests

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Dec 2012 09:27

While we often lament the wasted opportunities let us acknowledge the great leap the Independence generation had to make to meld Western and Hindu concepts to create modern India.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 10 Dec 2012 09:51

johneeG wrote:
Jhujar wrote:

राष्ट्रीय खलनायक...गुजरात के मतदाता: जो बार बार मोदी को ही चुनते हैं

Good one

kish · Post by **kish** » 10 Dec 2012 15:31

"80% Hindus are Idiots" fame former Judge Mr. Katju's love for people across border is aptly reciprocated by Peaceful people of pakistan.

Mr. Katju is an extremist only, he cannot fathom the existence of pakistan.

And the article goes on to say how extremists exist on both sides of the border, Lashkar-e-toiba in pakistan and Mr. Katju like people in India.

Atleast extremist in pakistan is regretted by India alone. But, Indian extremists are regretted by both Indians and pakistanis.

I wish Mr. Katju read this article.

Comment: Impressions from Pakistan on the Kashmir conundrum

Even today, a large section of Indian society does not believe in Pakistan’s existence. On December 8, former judge of the Indian Supreme Court Markandey Katju, who now heads the Press Council of India, made it apparent how widespread this thinking was. He publicly stated, “For resolving the Kashmir issue, re-unification of India and Pakistan was the only solution”. He went on to say “Pakistan was an illegitimate country as it was created on the basis of the two-nation theory (crafted by British colonial power).”

Keeping the paki concern aside, Mr katju please don't float these ideas and make the future generation Indians pay for it.

Katju’s salvo did not surprise many. Reconciliation with the idea that Pakistan’s creation is a historical fact has not taken root in India and likewise, the theory in Pakistan that India is “Enemy number one” has not died down.

India n bakistan equal equal onlee.

With all this frequent and intense animosity leaving its impact on South Asia, there is, however, a silver lining one can see in peace moves on both sides. After the 2008 Mumbai attacks, relations between the two countries were battered along the lines of what happened in the aftermath of the December 2001 attack on Indian parliament. The credit to turn the clock back then goes to far-sighted then prime minister, AB Vajpayee, who on April 18, 2003 sprang a surprise in Srinagar by announcing “I extend a fresh hand of friendship to Pakistan”.

See, how pakistan magnanimously accepted peace offered by Indian on both occassion.

Pakistan’s response to Ajmal Kasab’s hanging was meaningful. When the news of his hanging was out, it did not create a flutter in any section of Pakistani society except amongst extremists who stuck to their guns. The government virtually disowned him and the media and civil society’s response was un-radical too. This surely conveyed a message that Pakistan was trying to deal with an issue which has a far-reaching impact on bilateral ties.

A ghazi like ajmal kasab (who killed 100s of Indians) will be showered with rose petals in pakistan like Qadri. But, pakistan with much difficulty restrained the urge to do that.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 10 Dec 2012 23:33

Hindutva vs Hinduism: Why I am proud to be pseudo-secular

Classic Psy-Ops and Distortions at play.

Must read for all to understand the new step played.

Hinduism is inherently constructive and inclusive while Hindutva is destructive and exclusive. Hinduism is liberal, assimilative and democratic while Hindutva is illiberal and undemocratic.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Dec 2012 00:32

AbhiJ wrote:Hindutva vs Hinduism: Why I am proud to be pseudo-secular

Classic Psy-Ops and Distortions at play.

Must read for all to understand the new step played.
Hinduism is inherently constructive and inclusive while Hindutva is destructive and exclusive. Hinduism is liberal, assimilative and democratic while Hindutva is illiberal and undemocratic.

Yes, the author is horribly ill informed but where does he go to get some basic information on what is Hindutva about. Look at this wiki entry - is it coherent or accurate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva

Do we have articulations of Hindutva that is inclusive, meaningful, liberal, practical, forward looking, connects with the aspirations of people? If so, I could use one. Yes: I have read all there is to read on Savarkar, Voice of India, RSS ideologues on the matter. There are some excellent works amongst them at many levels but the articulation of what Hindutva means in a modern nation-state context is missing. Let us take the example of Arun Shourie, who's works I have read extensively and he is charged to be a Hindu ideologue. Ask him what is his view on what Hindutva means? Ask someone like Subhash Kashyap? Ask Pratap Bhan Mehta? Or ask so many articulate lawyers, IFS, IAS personnel.

Where is the definitive straight forward and understandable Shastra or vision document for the Hindu Nation? The lack of such a consistent articulation allows other ideologies a foot hold and then be the mainstream opinion, relegating Hindutva to be clubbed with fringe elements in the land of Hindus. Strange nah?

PS: Look at the utterances of the respected Justice Katju, he is an SC judge to boot, not an idiot but has no qualms calling x% of Indians idiots. How does something like this happen in this country?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Dec 2012 00:56

^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu

Hindu ( pronunciation (help·info)) is a term for adherents of Indian religions. Hinduism comprises diverse traditions and has no single founder. It includes the Agamic religion, involving Shaivism, Vaishnavism, Shaktism; historic groups such as the Ganapatyas, Kaumaras, Sauras, Bhairavas, Kapalikas, Kalamukhas, Pashupatas; and the historical Vedic religion, including the Śrautas.

After India became an independent country, the term "Hindu" came to describe persons professing any Indian religion, e.g., Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism.[1][2]

With more than a billion adherents, Hinduism is the world's third largest religion. The vast majority of Hindus, approximately 940 million, live in India.[3] Other countries with large Hindu populations include Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Mauritius, Suriname, Guyana, Trinidad & Tobago, and Fiji, and in Indonesia, the province of Bali.

Hindutva is the Action (Manasa, Vacha and Karmana) that protects and celebrates Hindu.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Dec 2012 01:58

PS: Look at the utterances of the respected Justice Katju, he is an SC judge to boot, not an idiot but has no qualms calling x% of Indians idiots. How does something like this happen in this country?

Its a pecualiar syndrome applicable to Modern Indians.
While psychologists have identified "inferiority Complex? Well of Modern Indians (WMI) suffer from the inverse :"Superiority Complex". Being an expert in one field they think allows them to pontificate about other subjects beyond their ken.
This is exhibited only towards their less fortunate fellows.

Is Shri Katju qualified as a psychologist to call others idiots?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Dec 2012 02:46

ramana wrote:Well of Modern Indians (WMI) suffer from the inverse :"Superiority Complex".

There would be no issues even with those state of affairs, provided this superiority complex was based on Hindutva and not a deracinated sense of who we are? I wish we have the problem of a superiority complex based on Hindutva.

RamaY: You have your views, but listen to this just today by Yashwant Sinha. He claims that he and the BJP follow the definition of Hindutva as proclaimed by JLN in the Discovery of India!!!

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/your-c ... nha/257680

Who do you think the masses are listening to and what messages are they forming?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Dec 2012 03:18

ShauryaT ji,

We all have our definitions and world-views and the idea is to encourage that. My definitions says exactly that using few sanskrutam words.

What did Nehru define Hindutva to be by the way? What is Nehru's or Katju's qualification to define Hindutva? They neither are proud of it nor thought it can be bedrock of modern India.

They basically defined what (sic) secularism is and everything else in Hinduism is Hindutva for them. Do you see any parallel's between their definition and Abrahamic faiths?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Dec 2012 03:35

RamaY wrote:Do you see any parallel's between their definition and Abrahamic faiths?

None whatsoever. What I see is a deracinated set that is alienated, confused, running around like a chicken who's head has been taken apart and the chicken ready to become the next meal on someone's plate. Sorry for the gruesome analogy.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Dec 2012 03:42

ShauryaT wrote: Do we have articulations of Hindutva that is inclusive, meaningful, liberal, practical, forward looking, connects with the aspirations of people? If so, I could use one. Yes: I have read all there is to read on Savarkar, Voice of India, RSS ideologues on the matter. There are some excellent works amongst them at many levels but the articulation of what Hindutva means in a modern nation-state context is missing. Let us take the example of Arun Shourie, who's works I have read extensively and he is charged to be a Hindu ideologue. Ask him what is his view on what Hindutva means? Ask someone like Subhash Kashyap? Ask Pratap Bhan Mehta? Or ask so many articulate lawyers, IFS, IAS personnel.

Where is the definitive straight forward and understandable Shastra or vision document for the Hindu Nation? The lack of such a consistent articulation allows other ideologies a foot hold and then be the mainstream opinion, relegating Hindutva to be clubbed with fringe elements in the land of Hindus. Strange nah?

Why do Hindus have to be inclusive onlee? Which other theology/religion/belief-system is "inclusive"? If so why dont all the other great ones's also "include" "Hinduism/Hindu" as their own without rejecting or denigrating it? Why do we submit to this attempt by others to fit us into their boxes? What is not "meaningful", or not "liberal" in whatever exists in the definition of the "Hindu"?

Meaning is a two-way process. For some of us, some of the existing more globally popular religions do not make sense, and have any meaning either. We consider some of them most illiberal too. For example, some of these liberal philosophies do not allow women to hold certain religious organizational roles or go beyond a certain step in their power, religious decision-making hierarchy. If you start eliminating the fur/hair fibre from the blanket - the whole blanket vanishes. Meaningful, liberal are terms used by certain sections who themselves are not aware of what they are talking about. These are vague and person-dependent or value-dependent adjectives.

Why should we dance about the need for vision-document/text? That idea comes because those who ask it - are used to think of all religions/philosophies as legitimate if and only if they are revelatory texts. What happened to any Indian view about philosophy not necessarily residing in texts? Its almost like saying UK has no law because it is not written down in a Constitution! Why can't we demand that people should stay with us, live with us, taste all our spiritual avenues, and "absorb" our religion/world-view rather than try to read it off like a undergraduate text or a Dummies made easy edition?

We do not hit-back, and denounce or deconstruct others - so we are forced to fall-back on defensives where we defend on others' terms. That will always be the road to defeat.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Dec 2012 03:49

B ji: The question is not what Hindu is, although that is another can of worms. The question is what is Hindutva - meaning the political ideology of the Hindus? A political vision has to be inclusive for a nation-state to be built on a stable polity.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Dec 2012 03:55

ShauryaT wrote:
RamaY wrote:Do you see any parallel's between their definition and Abrahamic faiths?
None whatsoever. What I see is a deracinated set that is alienated, confused, running around like a chicken who's head has been taken apart and the chicken ready to become the next meal on someone's plate. Sorry for the gruesome analogy.

The problem here is the individuals themselves did not want to use their heads. We can given them the benefit of doubt as individuals, but not for their leadership. Even I could have done million times better. My nation could have been self-aware (for modern thinkers self-awareness == done self-SWOT analysis) at least

It is very very very cruel to have 400+ million people living without food-health-knowledge security even after 60yrs of independence. I do not accept the logic that it was not possible to solve India's problems with what we have between 1947 and 1964.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Dec 2012 04:00

ShauryaT wrote:B ji: The question is not what Hindu is, although that is another can of worms. The question is what is Hindutva - meaning the political ideology of the Hindus? A political vision has to be inclusive for a nation-state to be built on a stable polity.

Do you really need to construct a "Hindu" bible? Many use BG for that purpose. Does any other religion provide a vision-document and text for national spaces? In reality - no - not even the Islamic, even if they try to claims so now.

PS: if you mean the official 4 chapter doc from a certain party, why not take it as a work in progress? I am neither a member nor a supporter - at least as yet. So I am free to make my own charter, and not limited by the 4 chapters. I am not rejecting them though, nor accepting what they say.

What you are asking for can only come through a sequence of texts, materials, and probably such material evolves over the life-time of a thoughtful person. A single manifesto is not the answer. Not yet.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Dec 2012 04:24

X-Posting from China-threat thread

RamaY wrote:
“There is growing realisation in China that the political relations with India will not improve merely by increasing the bilateral trade to $100 billion. The new leadership wants to engage India as an autonomous stable power in the world,” said a senior official.
The punditry in BRF needs a chanikiyan toilet now

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Dec 2012 07:38

brihaspati wrote: Why should we dance about the need for vision-document/text? That idea comes because those who ask it - are used to think of all religions/philosophies as legitimate if and only if they are revelatory texts. What happened to any Indian view about philosophy not necessarily residing in texts? Its almost like saying UK has no law because it is not written down in a Constitution! Why can't we demand that people should stay with us, live with us, taste all our spiritual avenues, and "absorb" our religion/world-view rather than try to read it off like a undergraduate text or a Dummies made easy edition?

Wrong analogy. We have always had texts as shastras, which documented in detail, how our way of life is to be lived and under what laws for its times – nothing to do with revelatory texts of Judeo-Christian-Islamic evolutions.

By all means do exactly like the British did and as a symbol also have like the UK officially be not a "secular" but a nation wedded to the Anglican church or its appropriate Hindu counterpart – but have something meaningful. This process in the UK has a 1000 year claimed continuous historical evolution for that nation culminating in the modern nation-state of the United Kingdom. There are works galore to understand this evolution in terms of treaties, judgments and statutes, notwithstanding the fact that there is not "a" formal written constitution. If our founding fathers would have understood this basic fact that this was their evolution not ours – we would have been better off.

So, point to this soul - an evolution of judgments, treaties and statutes - culminating in the nation-state of the Republic of India. The farthest I can travel is to Morley-Minto and then to 1935. Before that is like we might well have landed from the moon - from a legal evolution perspective.

OK, let us take philosophies into the picture. Can you point to ANY meaningful philosophy of this land incorporated in our polity, when our eminent founding members had a chance 65 years back? VarnaAshrma debated? PuruSharthas? Purusha-Prakriti? Our Lakshanas? No. Instead they sought to seek “amelioration” from the ways of the land.

You mentioned live with us. Yes - try living in a modern urbane environment in India. Outside of the socio-political-economic issues, I can safely say, I am a better Hindu probably because I chose to live outside India. Now, why is that so? I am not proud of this.

B ji: The need to have a coherent, inclusive, liberal, reformed set of ideas that formally documents Hinduva’s political vision, which can be dissected and debated is an essential starting point. Once we have this starting point, it will automatically be in opposition to many other ideologies that exist out there but this starting point has to be our own – not just in opposition to something else. Why this worry for a demand to have our own starting point, when we have a wealth of evolution and learnings with us.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Dec 2012 07:45

I gave a simple one line definition of Hindutva and ShauryaT garu doesn't like it and wants a dossier in triplicate attested by JLN

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Dec 2012 07:49

brihaspati wrote: Do you really need to construct a "Hindu" bible? Many use BG for that purpose. Does any other religion provide a vision-document and text for national spaces? In reality - no - not even the Islamic, even if they try to claims so now.

PS: if you mean the official 4 chapter doc from a certain party, why not take it as a work in progress? I am neither a member nor a supporter - at least as yet. So I am free to make my own charter, and not limited by the 4 chapters. I am not rejecting them though, nor accepting what they say.

What you are asking for can only come through a sequence of texts, materials, and probably such material evolves over the life-time of a thoughtful person. A single manifesto is not the answer. Not yet.

One can debate these points till the cows come home, however the evolution and guidance that Islamic doctrines and the Bible provide to the people and their polity cannot be denied. I am just asking for a coherent starting point - which is a vision document for what is "Hindutva"? Why is it needed? What does it entail? How will it work? Why is it different? What are its objectives? Why is it better? What are its constituent parts? How does it compare and contrast? What are its key tenets?

A read of Savarkar does not answer these questions for many of his answers to these questions are either missing or the answers are in reaction to the times he lived in and the issues faced in his times - which are not applicable anymore. RSS and Deedayal Upadhyaya Integral Humanism is entirely devoid of political construct. MKG's Hind swaraj gets many parts right but refuses to take the bull by the horn and express a firm political vision - but even if Hind swaraj was taken as a starting point for our Republic's evolution - it would have been closer to Hindu ideas than what we actually did that is copy over 85% of the 1935, Colonial India act.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Dec 2012 07:57

Should an integral humanism (whatever that is) include the rights of the religious fanatics? Is brutality limited to Body only or does it extend to mind and soul, which the sophisticated abrahamics target?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Dec 2012 08:00

RamaY wrote: Hindutva is the Action (Manasa, Vacha and Karmana) that protects and celebrates Hindu.

Not so fast. I will not even begin to debate this until it is articulated. The articulation of the Indian constitution consists of 395 articles, 12 statutes, 100+ amendments and 100's of constitutional judgments. So, where is the articulation of the above. Maybe, you should do one in the deracination thread.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Dec 2012 08:17

RamaY wrote:Should an integral humanism (whatever that is) include the rights of the religious fanatics? Is brutality limited to Body only or does it extend to mind and soul, which the sophisticated abrahamics target?

Do not understand your question. Please do read integral humanism, it is not a bad document but dil maange more. http://www.chitrakoot.org/download/IntegralHumanism.pdf

One thing that at least I have come to a realization. Do not worry about other ideologies, what they may think or proclaim. Define and fine tune your own and your opposing ideologies will be clear. Make your ideas acceptable to polity first - this is where BJP has shrunk from its responsibilities that they no longer talk even of their own foundational documents or defend its ideas. Neither are these ideas talked about in formal programs, when they were in power. Example: NCRWC was completely devoid of ANY ideas from integral humanism. When I asked this question to the person who headed that commission, his answer was no one brought it up!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Dec 2012 08:46

ShauryaT garu,

I am not trolling you.

There are many problems with your demands/questions because they are anti-Hindu to begin with. How?

- is Hinduism limited to humans or it extends to other living and non-living beings?
- is Hinduism limited to individual consciousness or it is amalgamation of individual, social and universal consciousness?
- is Hinduism limited to a single life or it extends to many lives and the life between those lives?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Dec 2012 09:05

Terms are confusing without proper definitions. Here I am crying hoarse over the fact that Hindutva - a political ideology needs to be better articulated. Your questions are then out of scope, the way I see it. My questions are about Hindutva - a political vision as I understand the term, even if our own SC does not express it as such. I am not debating Hinduism. This is what the courts did. Equated Hindutva to Hinduism and thereby diluted its entire political ambition. Unless, you agree with the courts view as expounded by Justice Verma in 2002. This was the BT case - where ALL so called Hindutva polity actually welcomed that decision. I guess if the narrative is such that the very word Hindutva is a curse word then such a decision would be welcome. But the feeling is akin to a deer, who has escaped being eaten on a particular day. the rules of the jungle are already pre-determined and it is only a matter of time, before it gets devoured. (Why am I giving you all these examples, involving protein!)

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 11 Dec 2012 13:43

Why is Sonia Gandhi listed as a co-president of an organization that supports secession of Kashmir?

http://barbarindians.blogspot.in/2008/1 ... fdlap.html

THE FORUM OF DEMOCRATIC LEADERS IN THE ASIA-PACIFIC

http://www.nancho.net/fdlap/

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 11 Dec 2012 14:03

Sonia Gandhi Part of Forum Advocating Kashmir Independence

http://indiawires.com/15281/news/nation ... der-bagga/

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Dec 2012 16:05

WTF is this true, then it explains GOI policy for the last 8 years. I really hope this is not true

THE FORUM OF DEMOCRATIC LEADERS IN THE ASIA-PACIFIC

the page has a link to

KASHMIRI INDEPENDENCE
Key to Defusing the Indo-Pakistani Nuclear Standoff

Is this Authentic.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 11 Dec 2012 19:08

From Rajiv Malhotra's yahoo group

Hindu Dharma is more than just a matter of naming

1) Many of our people seem confused and think that being Hindu is merely
a matter of calling oneself by that name. This approach might be called
"definition by naming". So long as someone uses the right name, its ok.
I find this shallow and troubling. I know many who call themselves
Hindus, but who are in one or more of the following categories of
counterproductive persons:

* Using Hindu community to boost their own political status or raise
self importance to get some appointment, etc. Obsessed with occupying
some position of importance for which they are utterly unqualified,
thereby denying someone better qualified the chance to serve us better.

* Happy to get digested; promoting digestion out of
naivete/stupidity; seeing this as a sign of glory: "We have arrived on
the world stage".
* Confused with ideas of sameness, as substitute for having to study
hard to understand what dharma is.

2) So if naming cannot be the criteria for defining who is Hindu,
another option many use is history centrism. Hinduism defined as a
specific history in a specific geography. I reject this as well. It
limits Hinduism's claim of universalism by defining it this history
centric way. For one thing, it excludes many segments and movements
which have separate histories (e.g. Swaminarayanan) and/or do not
consider any unique history to be the basis at all (e.g. Kashmir
Shaivism, Tantra, Yoga). This approach has been used for political
expediency - turning Hinduism into a Semitic religion of sorts. It
becomes a claim that downgrades us. It is tempting because it is simple
to explain and propagate - look at the success of Christianity and Islam
due to this method of definition. We would need to construct the
equivalent of a single book similar to the Bible with a single linear
history, and abolish everything else that does not fit into it - just
like the Bible and Qur'an did to destroy the diversity of faiths in
their lands.

3) Definition by distinct principles and practices. This the approach BD
follows. Here, I found it important to combine both positive and
negative principles. Examples of positive principles are
karma-reincarnation and non-translatables that are specific and shared
by the diversity of dharma approaches. Negative principles are what we
reject. These negative principles are is critical to formulate carefully
so as to have non-digestible differences. Examples of negative
principles: I reject the claim that God's manifestation on earth has
been limited via one son and no other way. I reject the claim that God
has decreed a given person to be his final prophet and that all other
claims of pramana (means of acquiring truth) must be rejected as
infidels. These negative principles are what the other faiths CANNOT
ACCEPT BECAUSE IF THEY DO, THEIR VERY FOUNDATION WOULD GET FINISHED.

4) So the combination of positive-negative principles define us.

* The positive ones root and ground us, in a manner that all (or
almost all) dharma groups can accept; hence we get a unified platform.

* The negative ones prevent us from getting digested into some other
religion that is lurking around sending its "good cops" to entice and us
and fool us. The poison-tipped quills of a porcupine prevent the tiger
from eating him because the tiger would die if he tried to swallow and
digest such a porcupine.

5) The cunning tiger would like to separate the quills of the porcupine
from the meat, reject the former and digest the latter. If the porcupine
is foolish and accept the tiger's offer and drops his quills, he will
surely get eaten and digested. The smart porcupine must NEVER SEPARATE
THE QUILLS FROM THE REST OF HIS BODY. The positive-negative principles
come as one package, never to get separated.

6) Swami Vivekananda' s greatness is because he followed the above method
#3. I have been reading through his collected works now for a second
time lately, because I realized that the AAR panelists' attack on BD was
based on those scholars' lifelong attacks of Swami Vivekananda. The
central problem these scholars face is any claim of unity of Hinduism.
They know how to deal with #1 and #2 approaches. #1 is simply trivial
and easy to appease such fools by simply using the Hindu name. #2 has
been attacked as Hindutva and hence they have lots of weaponry and
soldiers trained to start firing. But #3 is very tough for them. This is
why they have worked since 1950 to undermine Swami Vivekananda as a
champion of unity using #3 approach. Digestion is one of their most
aggressive and successful methods because Hindus get fooled into
thinking the tiger is paying them a compliment.

7) I have a list of top tier scholars who have made their careers
attacking Swami Vivekananda and now I am writing a response to their
attacks on BD. Their attacks on BD use the same approach as their
attacks on Swami Vivekananda. Basically, anything philosophical (not
political) that unifies dharma, is seen as dangerous. Why? Because such
a foundation for unity is very robust as a foundation for
nation-building. To destroy India they must destroy every viable method
of its unity. Modern economic growth is insufficient to hold a massive
diverse country together when it faces crises and catastrophes. Only a
shared set of dharmic principles can hold it together. Hence, this
academic cabal has targeted Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Gandhi, B.G. Tilak,
Radhakrishnan, etc. - calling them "Neo-Hindus" to imply that they lack
authenticity. I have been lumped into that lineage as the latest thinker
causing them trouble. What an honor, I say! Thanks for putting me in
that league. I am a small fry exploring dharma creatively for my own
benefit.

I welcome sincere and COMPETENT help in this latest project of mine.I
am working on it non stop 7 days/wk amidst some personal challenges. But
any offer of help must be based on several factors:

* willingness to follow the plan I have and not go off on their own
separate plan.
* tough deadlines requiring heavy reading/writing on specific items
that are well defined.
* complete confidentiality
* no expectations of funding or other tangible reward. The work
itself is the reward.
* approach me offline by private email giving specific areas and
types of help. Not generic "I want to help but dont have a clue what i
might be good for."

Regards,

rajiv

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Dec 2012 20:09

ShauryaT ji,
the discussion would go into political theology, and I am not too keen on it here. My own ideas are still evolving, and hence I dont want to put them right down now. There is a process, of reason, intuition, and the mystic effect of what lies beyond the two - that shapes up the thoughts. But you already know a key ingredient of that - at least from my side, and which you have so far not liked. That is the multiple guna simultaneously in one individual line. You cannot be more inclusive and liberal than that while preserving the essential idea. "Meaning" depends on proper dissemination and even education in ideas and memes in whose term a more complex idea can be absorbed.

The other factors that you are looking for, and which I have hinted at elsewhere in GDF, is that what is missing is
(a) appreciation of life and the "body" and rejection of the "dirty body and its desires -galat kaam, kya sharam ki baat" and "gradation of work as uttama and adhama".
(b) related to (a) but involves more - a general khsatrya guna, which doesnt necessarily mean goondagiri - of that we have plenty where by both uniformed and ununiformed show their valour under the psychological strength of being protected from retribution by the collective might of the state [either state directly or through established political parties].

As you can see all three aspects of cultural change I am looking for - are most uncomfortable stuff. But they are the source of empowerment - at least the first steps. Unity and purpose and self-esteem.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Dec 2012 20:14

The Gujarat experiment is very important in many levels.

First the C-system called this state the Hindutva-Lab! To indicate two things. The first part is Hindutva, as if it is a non-Hindu, anti-human and anti-national political paradigm. The second part is that Gujarat is the lab where this anti-minority, anti-nationalistic and most importantly non-Hindu ideologies are tested. This effort is to impose Naziness on Hindutva. This failed to convince Gujaratis in 2002.

Then the C-system tried to create rift within Hindu society by using (sic) secularism as the denominator in addition to scaring the religious minorities. This too failed to convince Gujaratis in 2007.

Now the C-system is trying to use Caste to divide Hindu society. We need to see how this pans out.

If NM wins 117 seats in the upcoming elections we can conclude that -

"The Indian nation can be ruled using a governance model that will not divide its people in the name of Religion or Secularism or Casteism. Such a governance model is appreciated and supported by all Indians irrespective of their religion, caste, social and economic status. And such governance can lead to overall progress and empowerment of that society. And such a society is not only recognized by other powers in the world but also respected by them. And all this is achieved without leaving Hindu Dharma"

ShauryaT garu - That is your Hindutva definition.

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 12 Dec 2012 04:54

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 577103.cms

When was the last time Indian courts intervened when a Hindu converted-out to marry as it is in this case where someone has converted-into Hinduism to marry? It is possible that two judges in this case who are not Hindus decided this verdict.

The Kerala high court on Tuesday ruled that marriage preceded by conversion - as a means to facilitate the marriage - will be deemed invalid before the law. It also controversially ordered the woman to stay with her parents until their marriage was solemnized in accordance with the Special Marriage Act, considering she is not a minor.

The court gave the order after hearing the case of a Muslim man and a Hindu woman whose marriage was solemnized with the backing of Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) after the man 'converted' to Hinduism. The man had produced a conversion certificate issued by the VHP and the marriage certificate was issued by a well-known temple in Kaloor.

Refusing to recognize religious conversion as the basis for marriage, a division bench comprising justices Pius C Kuriakose and Babu Mathew P Joseph asked the couple to register their marriage according to the Special Marriage Act.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » 12 Dec 2012 15:04

Hindus responsible for all the post independence Hindu-Muslim Riots

WSJ

Here we go again

In a piece last year, I reported on new research which suggested that India’s scheduled castes and scheduled tribes have made substantial economic gains in the last three decades.

In particular, the study shows that there’s been significant convergence between SCs/STs (as they are widely known) and everyone else, both in educational attainment and occupational choice. This manifests itself in wages paid to SCs/STs catching up. Further, the study showed that the convergence in wage levels has been driven in large part by the education gap slowly being closed.

Scheduled castes refer to those at the bottom of the Hindu caste hierarchy and scheduled tribes to India’s indigenous native population – both benefit from affirmative action.

This is good news for SCs/STs and also supports the argument that caste-based reservation has produced beneficial economic results. Both scheduled castes and scheduled tribes have quotas set aside in government jobs and educational institutions.

But this good news story has an ugly sequel. Recent news reports document instances of violence against SCs/STs by those above them in the social hierarchy.

In one episode this past November, three colonies in the Dharamapuri district of Tamil Nadu were burned to the ground. The residents belonged to the Dalit community (and therefore were members of the scheduled castes). The perpetrators allegedly came from the Vanniyar caste, who do not qualify as scheduled castes but are just above Dalits in the arcane hierarchy of the caste system. They were apparently enraged at an inter-caste marriage between a young woman from the Vanniyar community and a young Dalit man from a neighboring colony.

Some observers including Thol Thirumavalavan, a Dalit activist and politician, have argued that the violence against Dalits represents retribution by “intermediate” castes such as the Vanniyars who resent the improving economic fortune of Dalits compared with their own economic stagnation. According to another report the roots of the current tension lie in the fact that Dalits who traditionally were employed as landless laborers by the land-owning Vanniyars have in many instances moved to cities such as Bangalore to become daily wage laborers, thereby improving their economic lot and freeing them from their traditional dependence on the Vanniyars.

Is this recent incident in Tamil Nadu an isolated episode or is there a larger pattern here? A new study by economist Smriti Sharma of the Delhi School of Economics suggests that the answer to the second question may be yes.

Ms. Sharma analyzes a large amount of data on violence committed against SCs/STs by non-SCs/STs over the period 2001/2010 and spanning 415 districts over 18 large states in India. These include Tamil Nadu but also Haryana, which has witnessed horrific recent episodes of violence against women that appear to have a caste dimension.

The study attempts to correlate the data on violence with measurements of consumption expenditures by SCs/STs, which are routinely used by economists as a proxy for income and well-being. Ms. Sharma’s methodology takes a leaf from an important recent study by economics professors Anirban Mitra of the University of Oslo and Debraj Ray of New York University.

Mr. Mitra and Mr. Ray used a similar methodology to study Hindu-Muslim violence in India. They concluded that an increase in the expenditure levels of Muslims generated a large and significant increase in future communal conflict, but by contrast an increase in expenditures in Hindus had no such effect.

While these findings are open to different interpretations, their provocative but well-argued thesis is that Hindus have been principally responsible for Hindu-Muslim violence in the post independence period. Mr. Mitra and Mr. Ray are careful to note that their interpretation rests on the interlinking of theory and evidence that they present and that a reader might see their result as a “curiosum of interest.”

The findings of Ms. Sharma’s study mirror those of Mr. Mitra and Mr. Ray in the context of inter-caste violence. In particular, she finds that a closing of the gap in consumption expenditures between SCs/STs and everyone else is positively correlated with an increase in violent crimes against SCs/STs by others.

Her interpretation is that this represents increased violence by upper castes who feel threatened by the rising living standards of a group that has historically been much poorer and socially deprived. Again though, note that this is one interpretation of her research findings and others are possible.

While data limitations prevent the studies from determining who among the upper castes is committing violence against SCs/STs, the experience of Tamil Nadu and elsewhere suggests that the principal sources of violence are most likely to be other disadvantaged groups that are proximate both in location and caste standing to Dalit communities and historically ever-so-slightly ahead of them.

And to the extent that the economic empowerment of SCs/STs is driven at least in part by policies such as caste-based reservation, this could only be expected to exacerbate the resentment of other disadvantaged groups who don’t benefit from affirmative action policies.

Some might see these findings as an argument against caste-based reservation and promotion. Others who support affirmative action should see instead a cautionary tale of the unintended consequences of well-intentioned government policies.

Either way, this new research documenting the link between economic empowerment and caste violence is sure to fuel the ongoing debate about affirmative action in India.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Dec 2012 15:41

That WSJ article is only correct if you belive the Jews are responsible for the Holocust and not Hitler.

Its like aurguing centuries of Jewish Behavior is responsible for the mass murder by the SS.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Dec 2012 00:51

It could also be connected to increased religious manifestation and religious organizing - as economic status improves. So the provocation could come from that side too .Ray and Mitra, of course again curiously from a certain provincial origin - of forward "sections" of "Hindus" of that provincial society too - which is strongly correlated with seeing everything right with anti-Hindu forces, and everything wrong with the "Hindu" - will never consider this alternative.

Also they assume that the "starting" of the "riots" always lie with one particular side which is the "Hindu".

The same could also be true of the other case.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 13 Dec 2012 01:59

brihaspati wrote:ShauryaT ji,
the discussion would go into political theology, and I am not too keen on it here. My own ideas are still evolving, and hence I dont want to put them right down now. There is a process, of reason, intuition, and the mystic effect of what lies beyond the two - that shapes up the thoughts. But you already know a key ingredient of that - at least from my side, and which you have so far not liked. That is the multiple guna simultaneously in one individual line. You cannot be more inclusive and liberal than that while preserving the essential idea. "Meaning" depends on proper dissemination and even education in ideas and memes in whose term a more complex idea can be absorbed.

B ji: I will respond in the deracination thread later. But quickly, no disagreement on all gunas in one individual line. What I am seeking to explore is a new way to use the old order of Varna. Towards this idea, my thoughts have been forming and I need to elaborate and I can use some discussions and critiques on these ideas.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 13 Dec 2012 07:43

Views from the Right

Modi mania

The Sangh Parivar appears to have already gone into celebration mode over the Gujarat assembly elections with its mouthpiece Organiser carrying a cover story declaring a “sure hat-trick” for Narendra Modi because his “juggernaut seems unstoppable”.

The two cover stories, however, have raise strong objections to the Congress fielding suspended IPS officer Sanjiv Bhatt’s wife Shweta Bhatt against Modi. While asserting Modi’s victory as a “foregone conclusion”, the cover story says Bhatt’s candidature has given “credence” that her husband was a “Congress stooge who has been shadow boxing for the party in Gujarat in a bid to keep the memory of the riots alive”.

Swayamsevak and former Chief Minister Keshubhai Patel, on the other hand, has not elicited an equal attack from the Organiser except for describing his “freshly minted” party as a “rag tag bunch of disgruntled septuagenarians” that will not dent the BJP’s votebank.

The Organiser’s editorial has credited Modi’s achievements as a reason the Congress has “deserted its communal political agenda” and kept away “the minority-victim bogey from the campaign” this time. It has highlighted how Modi has shunned “competitive freebies electoral politics” and garnered “votes on his performance”.

One of the cover stories claims Congress general secretary Rahul Gandhi had been keeping away from Gujarat because the grand old party is “dreading Modi’s victory” the third time round that “could launch the Gujarat chief minister into the national political scenario”.

Sachar parivar

The Sangh Parivar’s Hindi mouthpiece remains focused on the issue of FDI in retail and assails the government for political manipulation to win the vote in Parliament. The editorial in Panchjanya warns the electorate will not pardon the “betrayal” of the SP and BSP in bailing out the government while paying mere lip service to their opposition to FDI in retail.

While the editorial faults the two parties’ logic of not joining ranks with the “communal” forces, Panchjanya carries a separate article seeking to argue that “FDI is anti-Muslim”. The article cites the Sachar committee report to claim that while only about 8 per cent of Hindus are engaged in domestic retail trade, 17 per cent of Muslims are in retail. “FDI in retail will make more Muslims jobless,” it claims. Consequently, the article punches holes in Mulayam Singh Yadav’s stance, arguing that Muslims are more likely to be adversely impacted by foreign retailers than others.

Differently indifferent

The Sangh Parivar continues to struggle to strike a balance on the level of indifference towards issues concerning Hindus and Hinduism in Pakistan, India and Nepal. This has come to the fore in the latest issues of Organiser and Panchjanya. A report in Panchjanya highlights VHP patron Ashok Singhal’s remarks, whereby he lamented the declaration of neighbouring Nepal — “the lone Hindu country” — a secular country. “Declaring Nepal as a secular country is a betrayal of Nepali society,” Panchjanya quotes Singhal speaking in Kathmandu recently.

However, in a separate report, Panchjanya deplores the demolition of a Hindu temple in Karachi. It has regrets the local administration’s role as a mute spectator and chastises the Pakistan government’s “indifferent” attitude towards Hindus in Pakistan.

But the Organiser has published a full page article by Janata Party chief Subramanian Swamy on the relationship between the Babri demolition and “nation-building”. He cites a Supreme Court verdict (Faruqui vs Union of India, 1994) to say mosques “can and have been be demolished for public good”. Swamy suggests that razing the Babri Masjid was a “proud” moment through which Hindus have “prevailed” despite “800 years of Islamic and 200 years of Christian domination”.

Compiled by Ravish Tiwari

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Dec 2012 08:10

12/12/12 12:12 PM Upset with corruption man commits suicide demanding MMS' resignation.

Ghaziabad: A man allegedly committed suicide in Ghaziabad on Wednesday demanding Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s resignation over the corruption issue.
Krishnapal, 42, killed himself after jumping from a water tank in Vijay Nagar area in Ghaziabad on Wednesday noon.
He was a native of Bulandsahar and was engaged in business of nursery in Vijay Nagar. He is survived by wife and three children.
As per the sources, he was upset over the issue of corruption and accused the government for it. Demanding resignation of the Prime Minister, Krishnapal climbed at the roof of the water tank in Pratap Vihar area this morning, warning that if his demands were not met he will give up his life on the fantasy date December 12 at 12:12 pm.
“We rushed him to the hospital after he jumped from the tank despite several rescue efforts but he was later declared dead by the doctors,” said the police.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 15 Dec 2012 22:23

Some of the analysis in the below article are also relevant for many such heroes in Desh too and behaviour of indians to the false heroes, with so many parallels. Recall Shri.MMS who runs one of the most corrupt governance, as Mr.clean also sought to parade a string of worthies such as Amartya sen testifying to his character.

http://nymag.com/news/frank-rich/david- ... s-2012-12/

Suckers for Superheroes
We should have known all along that David Petraeus was cheesy. And Lance Armstrong mendacious. And Joe Paterno a coward. And yet.
The toppling of King David, as the Petraeus fanboys anointed him, is just the latest in a string of such flameouts. He was directly preceded, more grievously, by the disgraced sports legends Lance Armstrong and Joe Paterno and by the memoirist Greg Mortenson, whose best-selling Three Cups of Tea was spiked with derring-do fiction to sate his own thirst for money and self-promotion along with the professed goal of championing education for Muslim girls in remote corners of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Though we’ve also lived of late through the scandals of the Catholic Church and Major League Baseball, the unmasking of megaministers and Wall Street titans, and the penile pratfalls of John Edwards and Tiger Woods, our serial susceptibility to bogus heroes and their hoaxes remains undiminished. It’s as if there’s something in the national DNA that makes us suspend disbelief once our icons are anointed. You’d think in our digital age, when everyone can seemingly find out anything about anyone in a nanosecond—when transparency, thy name is Twitter—this pattern would have long since been broken and the country wouldn’t be so easily snowed. Instead, our credulousness seems as entrenched as ever, if not more so, with the same myopia by the press and public alike recurring with scant variation, whether the instance be as chilling as Paterno or as farcical as Petraeus.

charges against Rajat Gupta, the former Goldman Sachs director and McKinsey head who tried (and failed) to avoid a prison sentence this fall by enlisting testimonials to his good works from Kofi Annan and Bill Gates. Livestrong and the Central Asia Institute can only benefit from the removal of their founders.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 15 Dec 2012 23:20

St Stephen's Award list on google spreadsheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... YaXc#gid=0

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 15 Dec 2012 23:52

What is the Future Path for Islamic Countries?

Sharia like Pakistan or Shirkness like India?

The Jews verdict is Kaffir.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opini ... ista-.html

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 15 Dec 2012 23:59

^ what the author doesn't say, because deep down he is an Abrahamic cord, is that all those things are possible in India because India is a Hindu majority nation.

Egypt or any other Muslim or even Christian country cannot achieve that level of social and governance openness because their Abrahamic majorities will not allow such social and political empowerment for the minorities based on merit and raja dharma.

Didn't we see the tamasha of Obama reaffirming his Christian credentials before he can be elected of POTUS just few years ago?