Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Dec 25, 2012

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 28 Dec 2012 13:59

You have to admire the ease with which Paki estabilishment props up various people and so many people turn up at rallies.

First it was Immy, who has been in politics for umpteen years, nobody paid any attention to him, suddenly he had massive rallies.

Then it was Duffer-e-Bakistan, suddenly they had huge rallies.

And now this Qadri fellow's huge rally. It seems that this motely group will be cobbled together like Islami Jamhoori Ittehad . Dont know though if they can take on PPP without rigging (gathering huge crowds is one thing, winning seats -- which require a network of local activists and organization -- is a totally different ball game). But they need not win. If no party gains even a simple majority, army can impose a "transition government" and/or drive from the backseat.

All in all, a pretty interesting April/May

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Dec 2012 14:08

I somehow get the feeling that the PA is willing to 'accommodate' with the 'bad Taliban' all of a sudden.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 28 Dec 2012 14:09

With all our angst vis-a-vis Bakistan, we fail to note what kind of banana republic it is. India/US/Saudi Barbaria retain significant leverage to influence domestic politics.

It was India which caused Ayub's downfall and rise of ZAB. More recently, it was due to India handing out a drubbing in Kargil which was directly responsible for Nawaz's ouster. Saudis were the one who saved Nawaz from the Lamp post. US was responsible for propping up Zia, was responsible for propping up BB (and indirectly her death) and is responsible for Ashphuck's extension (and thereby the current deadlock vis-a-vis Civvies and Judiciary) and is also responsible for throwing Zardari a lifeline through numerous baksheesh.

The basic structural problem with Pakistan is as follows. Most countries (US is a prime example) goes to war to ensure prosperity of its citizens. Pakistan on the other hand has a strategic calculus which goes along the lines of

1. Train lots of terrorists
2. Ghazwa-e-Behind
3. ????
3. Get lots of Baksheesh

Baksheesh that Pakistan gets is significant (and indeed has hurt us terribly), but it cannot compare with the prosperity (and hence military/economic/diplomatic might) accrued by actually concentrating on creating wealth and domestic welfare. Examples are South Korea, Taiwan and to some extent Japan. They too have been GUBO'ed by Unkil to varying degrees, have allied with Unkil, enjoyed the baksheesh, but did so with the aim of creating domestic industry, improving infrastructure and creating wealth and prosperity. Now SoKo is armed to the teeth. Imagine having a Pakistan with the Industrial/Economic and Military base of SoKo on our borders!

Pakistan on the other hand has a strategic calculus limited to "Give us 600 million $ of coalition support funds and a few F16s and we will reopen NATO routes". Pakistan could have used this decade to set up an industrial base, upgrade their infrastructure, and truly leapfrog over India.

But as they say, Jo Lawhore mein G*ndu, woh Washington mein bhi G*ndu.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Dec 2012 14:10

abhijitm wrote:Lessons from India's Nuclear Tests

Abhijitm, I am posting a reply in the India-US thread.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 28 Dec 2012 14:19

SSridhar wrote:I somehow get the feeling that the PA is willing to 'accommodate' with the 'bad Taliban' all of a sudden.

This is possible. TTP even released a statement that TFTAs should avenge India for 1971 instead of fighting against its own people. Usually these kind of statements precede peace deals (anyone remember Pasha's statement that Baitullah is a huge patriot and patriots like him will jump to Pakistan's defence if it were ever attacked by India?)

But the Bad taliban are different because of three aspects I feel.

1. They have no interest in democracy and no interest in being propped up in elections. This is different from Maulaners Diesel and Sandwich who despite being the father/mother of the taliban, did seem to like their parliament seat
2. They want sharia in their areas and more importantly
3. They want Sharia in all of Pakistan.

One should admire their steadfastness in wanting sharia and honesty and modesty in not being corrupted by immoral western notions like democracy. They will take Pakistan to even greater heights and get rid of Munafiqs and hand out correct sharia compliant punishments.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Dec 2012 14:41

Anujan ji, one reason that I suspect why PA might indeed not be averse to a co-option of 'bad Taliban', apart from what you have stated namely to avenge India, is that Afghanistan will soon reach a denouement. TSPA is now confident that the US has accepted its prime role there and are dependent on them for ensuring a peaceful withdrawal without terrible incidents. TSPA is confident that the Taliban can once again be foisted upon Afghanistan though initially they may only share power with others. Once that is achieved, the 'bad Taliban' have to be channellized elsewhee. Otherwise, it may be a huger problem for Pakistan to tackle than what it already is now. TSPA would therefore like to re-launch these jihadists, just as in 1989, in India. They can even claim that the 'bad Taliban', whom they are also after for their anti-state activities, have somehow escaped to Kashmir. Just like Musharraf said that LeT had moved elsewhere and were not in Pakistan just after his 2002 sanctions against that group.

This will solve several problems for TSPA. If the 'bad Taliban' get massacred by the IA, which they surely will, it would be one less headache for TSPA. By itself, it cannot take on the 'bad Taliban' and decimate them. If they do mount some terror acts against India, it is jolly well by the TSPA too because they welcome terror against India irrespective of the source. It is also an excellent 'plausible deniability' opportunity for TSP. It will solve the 'democracy' & 'shariah' problems too, though everyone in TSP cuckooland wants only Shariah (only the version differs).

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 28 Dec 2012 15:59

JE Menon wrote:>>Enough of it. Let us get back to regular programming on this thread.

Absolutely. And people, one more point at risk of stating the obvious: this is Bharat Rakshak, not Congress Rakshak OR BJP Rakshak. Start your own personal forum for that. Thanks.

Speaking for myself, I am not any party rakshak. Its only Bharat that drives the thinking. The reason for kolavari is sometimes people think party X is better than party Y when it comes to dealing with pukies, but recently every PM and party has gone extra mile to cajole pakistan. It is just my opinion in the context of this thread.

anyway...

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 28 Dec 2012 16:21

abhijitm wrote:Speaking for myself, I am not any party rakshak. Its only Bharat that drives the thinking. The reason for kolavari is sometimes people think party X is better than party Y when it comes to dealing with pukies, but recently every PM and party has gone extra mile to cajole pakistan. It is just my opinion in the context of this thread.

anyway...

If all partys are == for you then why even care commenting about any party. You should maintain your moral stand and refrain from preaching that this party is not better than that or that party is == to this only.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 28 Dec 2012 16:27

SSridhar wrote:I somehow get the feeling that the PA is willing to 'accommodate' with the 'bad Taliban' all of a sudden.

Well, the goals are the same, only question of who gets what... If TSPA can keep hands on the till, doesn't matter if the emir is a pure beard.... In any case they are more reliable than beardless Ims and Sharifs, Bhutto's.

Question is how to package and sell that to unkil to keep the jizya flowing, that too after 14. Kerry can help, so can recent ME developments. If AKP can become so flexible, TTP/TSPA also can

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 28 Dec 2012 16:37

Abhijit / Sagar enough on this thread. Pls move on topic

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Dec 2012 18:06

CRamS wrote: But boss, surely you would agree with me that 26/11 is now history and we cannot expect any justice on that front.

No there will be no justice on that front. It's over. Are they playing in Mumbai today? An autorickshaw driver told me there is a match today - I avoid cricket news. I am fortunate in not liking cricket so I suspect I can ignore the facts and choose to pretend that the pain does not exist while Indians slobber over Islamic terrorist sympathizers.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Dec 2012 18:12

Why 26/11, Kashmir violence, Various bomb blasts, 11 July 2006 local train bombings , 26/11 all forgotten.

The Pakis know we will forget and ask for more.

Heck We hold a CM responsible for Gujarat riots but we do not hold a General responsible for actions of his Army torturing Indian soldiers. He as* is licked in programmes sponsored by PSU's, All I can say we Indians ask for punishment

arun · Post by **arun** » 28 Dec 2012 20:39

Fresh polio case detected in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan highlighting the dangers which our Congress Party led UPA Administration has placed the children of India in by agreeing to reduce visa barriers for citizens of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Fresh polio case in Peshawar

arun · Post by **arun** » 28 Dec 2012 20:41

The ongoing saga of Tahir Ali Javed who fled from the US after infecting patients with Hepatitis C and became Health Minister of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Punjab province during the military dictatorship of Gen. Musharraf:

Doc whose Fremont clinic infected patients with hepatitis seeks N.Y. license to practice

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 28 Dec 2012 21:33

arun wrote:Fresh polio case detected in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan highlighting the dangers which our Congress Party led UPA Administration has placed the children of India in by agreeing to reduce visa barriers for citizens of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Fresh polio case in Peshawar

Why are we offering visa to people from Polio-stan? Is it not clear Indians have worked for decades to eliminate polio from India? Thankfully there are no India-Pakistan cricket matches in city I live in where horde of carriers may come in to cheer and infect innocent people by chance.

Harish · Post by **Harish** » 28 Dec 2012 21:34

SSridhar wrote:Once that is achieved, the 'bad Taliban' have to be channellized elsewhee. Otherwise, it may be a huger problem for Pakistan to tackle than what it already is now. TSPA would therefore like to re-launch these jihadists, just as in 1989, in India. They can even claim that the 'bad Taliban', whom they are also after for their anti-state activities, have somehow escaped to Kashmir. Just like Musharraf said that LeT had moved elsewhere and were not in Pakistan just after his 2002 sanctions against that group.

This will solve several problems for TSPA. If the 'bad Taliban' get massacred by the IA, which they surely will, it would be one less headache for TSPA. By itself, it cannot take on the 'bad Taliban' and decimate them. If they do mount some terror acts against India, it is jolly well by the TSPA too because they welcome terror against India irrespective of the source. It is also an excellent 'plausible deniability' opportunity for TSP. It will solve the 'democracy' & 'shariah' problems too, though everyone in TSP cuckooland wants only Shariah (only the version differs).

Isn't the Taliban a qualitatively different group compared to the piglets Indian forces have commonly fought in Kashmir? The piglets were well-trained and armed, but they did not have *significant* battle experience against a regular army. The Taliban of today is a very different beast; they have been fighting for more than a decade now, a decade of it against a coalition of the strongest forces in the world.

IMO, we should not assume that the Taliban, if and when unleashed on Kashmir or elsewhere in India, can be easily pest-e-shaheeded. They are capable of straining the resources and capabilities of the IA to the extreme. The deployment of the Taliban into kashmir is such an incredibly escalatory step, it is not just organized terrorism anymore, it is open war.

We cannot tackle the Taliban in Kashmir without declaring war and hitting bakistan really hard. Otherwise, we fall into the same trap that NATO fell into, hitting the cannon fodder while the shura sips green tea in Quetta.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 28 Dec 2012 21:43

Actually I am not so sure. The talibs who fought the Soviets were the same who crossed over to JK in the 90's. IA took about a decade to learn and started Pest-e-Shaheeding them. This is not to say that the current breed of Talibs are not dangerous, but a combination of factors -- Increased force strength, relatively low support among the population, urban areas, border fencing, intel etc makes us better than Massa in killing the yahoos.

Dont underestimate the Anti-terrorism ability of IA.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 28 Dec 2012 21:54

However is it possible to drop dumb bombs on barbarians in PoK and Afghanistan? Even firing bullets makes a point that barbarians do not have any legitimacy regardless of International powers and their local rabid dogs saying anything otherwise by way of talks etc

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 28 Dec 2012 22:25

Taliban have some similarity to Piranhas. They are not really much of a danger out of water.* Taliban act fight in an environment with Pushtun/Islamic support on the ground, in a territory, they basically grew in. Beyond that environment, they use trained "fighters" who know how to cause mayhem using powerful bombs, or some suicidal ones who use suicide vests or automatic weapons to mow down civilians (like in Mumbai). I don't think civilian casualties by the Taliban sort in Kashmir would increase their appeal, and for guerrilla warfare in Kashmir, they neither know the terrain, nor may have the necessary support of Kashmiris, as ethnically they stand out.

* Please ignore the film "Flying Piranhas" for the moment!

If they enter Kashmir, the "bad Taliban" should know they are being halaaled by the Pakistani Army itself by sending them into certain death.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 28 Dec 2012 23:42

Taliban wants Sharia in Pakistan, war with India

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 28 Dec 2012 23:50

^^^
Read carefully to see that they want a ceasefire, not surrender or disarmament

Rakshaks, follow articles by Mehreen Zahra Malik. Her latest pieces trumpeting bositive neuj about Pakistan army's turnaround etc makes me suspect she is an Establishment mouthpiece.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 29 Dec 2012 00:12

Not a suspect but a guaranteed plant. you got to hand it to pacquis for getting her into reuters.

Pakistan's loneliest church celebrates Christmas in Taliban country

(Reuters) - This Christmas, pastor Nazir Alam will stoke up a fire, lay a fresh cloth on the altar and welcome parishioners as they arrive at his church in Waziristan, a Pakistani tribal area known as an al-Qaeda haven.

"The lights are all up, and the choir boys are ready. The church is looking its best," said 60-year-old Alam, a former missionary who has celebrated his last ten Christmases there. "There's not much left to do but to pray and rejoice."

Outsiders might see little cause for joy. Pakistan is the sixth most dangerous country in the world for minorities, says London-based watchdog Minority Rights Group International. Christians, Shiite Muslims and Ahmadis are victims of a rising tide of deadly attacks.

"When the U.S. went into Kabul, things became bad for everyone. But we are safe here. The army protects us," says Shaan Masih, who helps clean the church and likes to play the drums and sing carols.

"It was a longstanding demand of the community to be given a proper space," Col. Atif Ali, a military officer, told Reuters during a rare trip to the region arranged by the military.

The church's gratitude to the army is expressed in a sign outside thanking Ali for his help with the renovation.

"Now it is much easier and convenient for them to worship. The new building is close to their homes. They are very happy with us," he said.

When five Christians from Waziristan were kidnapped by the Taliban on their way to the plains of Punjab in 2009, pressure from the army and the community helped free them.

"There are lots of Muslims in our neighborhood," said 30-year-old Saleem Masih, another church helper. "We take part in each other's happiness and sorrow. Christmas is coming. You'll see the Muslims will join us."

"If there is one person who kills, there are also so many who protect. We couldn't live here if Muslims didn't give us protection," said Alam.

"Don't forget: where there is bad, there is always good also."

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 29 Dec 2012 00:15

Anujan wrote:Actually I am not so sure. The talibs who fought the Soviets were the same who crossed over to JK in the 90's. IA took about a decade to learn and started Pest-e-Shaheeding them. This is not to say that the current breed of Talibs are not dangerous, but a combination of factors -- Increased force strength, relatively low support among the population, urban areas, border fencing, intel etc makes us better than Massa in killing the yahoos.

Dont underestimate the Anti-terrorism ability of IA.

Actually I am very sure. The talibs and pests are separated only by linguistic differences. Taliban are tasting success because they know the terrain while the US lead coalition is intent on doing an average job.

Situation in India is exactly the opposite. Since IA finds it hard to source officers so the kind of officers they hire are invariably from smaller towns and cities. For these guys the terrain in J&K is not alien. The IA has a very well thought out field posting policy of promoting junior level officers one step up which invariably turns these junior guys into adults in a very short time. And then there is the policy of getting officers of certain branches to specialise in these areas. Then off course the high alti duties.

If we loose anything in J&K then that is not going to happen because of IA. The wrongs would come from either the politicos themselves or the policies that they force onto the IA ops guys.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 29 Dec 2012 00:44

Compared to the late 80s, early 90s, I think one of the main differences is that the IA is already ready and waiting, with all the stuff it needs to pest-e-shaheedize any pig that crosses the border. Mucho difference me thinks. Not to mention the lack of support and general exhaustion from all the fighting for such a long time among the general population. And I don't think GoI can stymie public pressure to cross the border and hit them where they are, even before they try to cross over, if one or two events get out of hand.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 29 Dec 2012 00:45

pgbhat wrote:Not a suspect but a guaranteed plant. you got to hand it to pacquis for getting her into reuters.

Pakistan's loneliest church celebrates Christmas in Taliban country

Awwww so sweet, gora b@st@rds providing bojitive news about bakistan. See you kufrs Bakistan at it's heart is all so tolerant and sweet only. Shame on you dirty Hindoo Kaafirs for defaming Bakistan.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Dec 2012 01:29

Saar, all good bad taliban fighters in JK is nonsense....first things first....what PA was fighting against in FATA was not insurgency of the kind in JK....it was a full bodied war where they were fighting to take the area from under the control of the taliban....taliban were operating there and holding territory like Ahmad Shah Masood in Panjsher valley....the taliban had full logistic backup and war fighting machine. No such thing in Kashmir....they will have to hit the army like insurgents do...no possibility of fighting IA in set piece battle....IA will simply overwhelm any such attempt with kore boots on ground and superior firepower.....the insurgency in JK between 1991 to 95 was the period when IA was trying out methods to deal with the issue and find its feet on the ground.....by 95-96, the machinery and SOP to deal with the situation were in place...and between midnof 90s to 2000, IA got upper hand....ever since, IA has had upper hand to an extent that militancy in JK is for the sake of it....

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 29 Dec 2012 02:07

Homoseksual paintings Outrage Islamic Hard-Liners In Pakistan

LAHORE, Pakistan (AP) — Pakistan's leading arts college has pushed boundaries before in this conservative nation. But when a series of paintings depicting Muslim clerics in scenes with strong homosexual overtones sparked an uproar and threats of violence by Islamic extremists, it was too much.

Officials at the National College of Arts in the eastern city of Lahore shut down its academic journal, which published the paintings, pulled all its issues out of bookstores and dissolved its editorial board. Still, a court is currently considering whether the paintings' artist, the journal's board and the school's head can be charged with blasphemy.

The college's decision to cave to Islamist pressure underscores how space for progressive thought is shrinking in Pakistan as hardline interpretations of Islam gain ground. It was also a marked change for an institution that has long been one of the leading defenders of liberal views in the country.
......
The uproar was sparked when the college's Journal of Contemporary Art and Culture over the summer published pictures of a series of paintings by artist Muhammad Ali.

One titled "Call for Prayer" shows a cleric and a shirtless young boy sitting beside each other on a cot. The cleric fingers rosary beads as he gazes at the boy, who seductively stretches backward with his hands clasped behind his head.

Mumtaz Mangat, a lawyer who petitioned the courts to impose blasphemy charges, argued the image implied the cleric had "fun" with the boy before conducting the traditional Muslim call for prayer.

A second painting shows the same cleric reclining in front of a Muslim shrine, holding a book by Brazilian novelist Paulo Coelho in one hand as he lights a cigarette for a young boy with the other. A second young boy, who is naked with his legs strategically crossed to cover his genitals, sits at the cleric's feet. The painting has caused particular uproar because verses from Islam's holy book, the Quran, appear on the shrine.

Aasim Akhtar, an Islamabad-based art critic who wrote an essay accompanying the paintings in the journal, wrote that Ali's mixing of images was "deliberately, violently profane," aimed at challenge "homophobic" beliefs that are widespread in Pakistani society.

"Ali redefines the divine through a critique of authority and the hypocrisy of the cleric," wrote Akhtar, an Islamabad-based art critic who is also listed as a potential defendant in the blasphemy complaint.

Jamaat-ud-Dawa, widely believed to be a front for the Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group, issued a statement after the paintings were published demanding the college issue a public apology and withdraw all issues of the journal.

College staff members also began receiving anonymous text messages threatening violence, said a member of the journal's editorial board. They were afraid to push back for fear of being killed, he said, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of being targeted.
......
Yahya Mujahid, the spokesman for Jamaat-ud-Dawa, denied the group sent any threats but said the state should punish those responsible.

"It's part of Western and American plans to malign Islam," claimed Mujahid.

A court considering whether to press blasphemy charges held its latest session in mid-December, but it has not said when it will rule whether such charges apply in the case.

Shahram Sarwar, a lawyer representing the college's editorial board, said his clients did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings but he was prepared to apologize on their behalf if they did.

Besides shutting down the journal, the college also closed the department where its staff worked, said Sarwar.
.......
Individual graduates have pushed the envelope with their work. Amra Khan's latest work, which was exhibited at the college and a gallery in Karachi this year, included Muslim veils embroidered with a pink Playboy bunny and The Rolling Stones' big red lips logo.
......

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 29 Dec 2012 02:38

And while we are on the topic of TSPA negotiating with TTP, this latest news emerges from the most pious among the pious :

PESHAWAR: A video released on Friday, showing Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) chief , Hakimullah Mehsud sitting with his deputy Waliur Rehman, dispells recent reports of a depeening rift between the two powerful militant commanders.

“There is no divide in TTP. I and Maulvi Waliur Rehman are one, and look, we are sitting together. The propaganda of a rift in Taliban ranks is totally untrue,” says Mehsud pointing to Rehman in the 45-minute Pashto language video, a copy of which has been received by Dawn.com.

According to reports published earlier this month, Pakistani military officials had said that the two top TTP commanders were at loggerheads with each other, with Mehsud having lost operational control of the Pakistani Taliban and the moderate deputy leader Rehman set to take over the reins of the feared militant group.

In the video, Hakimullah sitting besides Rehman, who commands the Mehsud Taliban, also rebuffed the notion that the two were at odds over talks with the Pakistani government, saying that “meaningful and serious dialogue” was always welcome and that the Pakistani Taliban were never opposed to it.

“We are and we have always been open to dialogue…but true talks. The Sararoga peace agreement solemnized by Amir Baitullah Mehsud is an example which was openly breached by the (Pakistani) government many times. Despite repeated requests by Governor Ali Muhammad Jan Orakzai, the rulers on the behest of their US masters violated the agreement and resorted to bloodshed in the tribal areas.”

“But I would say Pakistan has no authority to hold talks. If it dissociates itself from the Americans and gets ready for meaningful and free talks with the Taliban, we are ready to do it any time,” Hakimullah remarked, however adding: “We are though not interested in useless and baseless talks, with control from abroad.”

No question of laying down weapons

Seconding Mehsud’s stance, Rehman said that the idea of the militant outfit laying down weapons was out of the question.

“But yes, we can sit and talk and reach a consensus for ceasefire,” he said. “However, talks should be serious and free of any foreign pressure, which the Pakistani rulers are unable to resist.”

Answering an unseen questioner in the video, Rehman said that there is no concept of local or foreign fighters among the Taliban, adding: “All are mujahideen and are our brothers. The activities carried out recently were purely our own mujahideens and if needed we have foreign fighters who can be used any time.”

The TTP rose to prominence as an anti-state umbrella group of militants following a Pakistan Army raid on the Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) in 2007, which had been seized by allies of the group.

The video follows three recent major attacks in Peshawar claimed by the group, including rockets and suicide attacks on the airport, the kidnap of 23 paramilitary soldiers, and the killing of a senior leader of the Awami National Party (ANP) leader Bashir Bilour.

Speaking about the assassination of KP senior minister Bashir Bilour, Waliur Rehman said Bilour had played a major role in the war against the Taliban from Swat to Waziristan Agency, and that he was a staunch enemy and “enemies are dealt with in the same manner.”

The top commanders of the TTP also said that their fight was not specifically against the ANP, Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP), or the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM), but against the “system which has enslaved the Pakistani nation”, accusing the political parties of “supporting it on the behest of the US and foreign masters.”

“I would clear one thing: our war is against the infidel ideology and not against individuals or one party. Anyone who would be supportive of this ideology, he would be on our hit list,” he warned.
Edited : Link added http://dawn.com/2012/12/28/video-dispel ... ban-ranks/

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Dec 2012 03:06

“I would clear one thing: our war is against the infidel ideology and not against individuals or one party. Anyone who would be supportive of this ideology, he would be on our hit list,”

This is one thing that the Islamist, the Koran, the Hadith, The Islamic Prophet are all crystal clear on: What they have to wage War against. And this is what is not clear to the Kufr as yet, despite overwhelming evidence. When only we define our value systems and Ideals clearly, only then we will gather the first weapons to tackle the Islamist War on our Ideology. Before that we are not even armed against the already documented assault on us. This aspect has to be internalized. That is why i keep repeating the importance of uniting under a banner of Dharma based on value systems as opposed to Hinduism, Hindutva etc which have fudged visuals and ideals. value systems.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 29 Dec 2012 03:42

Guys, what is this latest ISI orchestrated tamasah?

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 121229.htm

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Dec 2012 06:10

“I would clear one thing: our war is against the infidel ideology and not against individuals or one party. Anyone who would be supportive of this ideology, he would be on our hit list,”

Not to worry boss. Islam is on our list as long as shits like you exist. You are asking for a religious war and you will get it. Thank you for making that clear. What you are doing is to provoke a situation where secularism cannot work and war with Islam is started so that you feel Muslims will stick together and fight everyone else. Fine. Let us fight this war. It's OK. You too will be dead soon.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Dec 2012 06:17

Why can't we change the name of this thread temporarily - for a couple of months to "Terrorist Islamic Republic of Poliostan"?

I think we should be doing some propagandugiri of our own and we should popularize the Poliostan=Pakistan connection

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Dec 2012 07:20

Harish wrote:IMO, we should not assume that the Taliban, if and when unleashed on Kashmir or elsewhere in India, can be easily pest-e-shaheeded. They are capable of straining the resources and capabilities of the IA to the extreme. The deployment of the Taliban into kashmir is such an incredibly escalatory step, it is not just organized terrorism anymore, it is open war.

We cannot tackle the Taliban in Kashmir without declaring war and hitting bakistan really hard. Otherwise, we fall into the same trap that NATO fell into, hitting the cannon fodder while the shura sips green tea in Quetta.

Harish, your concern is understandable and I agree that such an escalation should invite a major re-appraisal of and retaliation from even the slumbering and dreaming GoI to its senses. But, it won't and that is another matter for discussion.

However, I do not believe that the IA would be stretched to handle these jihadi terrorists. Apart from many reasons that others have given, we must also recognize the enormous experience IA has gained, the distilled tactics that have been developed and the informer network that has been built up would make matters very bad for the 'bad Taliban' this side of the border. If they come here on the basis of their success in TSP, they are very foolish. They may not realize they are awaiting slaughter here and are being sent in as bakra for qurbani by their mentors. Gul & Beg may meet the fate of Col Sultan Amin Tarar in the process.

I suspect that one reason that GoP is very insistent on withdrawal of the IA from the border and J&K in the just concluded CBM talks is that they want to prepare the ground from now on for the introduction of the 'bad Taliban' here in large numbers by 2014.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 29 Dec 2012 07:24

Lack of positive gesture rules out Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s Pak trip soon

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Dec 2012 08:55

This post above by Ambar, has some interesting points.

For example, Hakimullah Mehsud and Waliur Rehman speaking jointly and disproving the recent theory of a fallout between them. The PA has been using many tools to drive a wedge among the 'bad Taliban'. They have used their sarkari Taliban like Gul Bahadur or Maulvi Nazir Ahmed to divide the TTP. Earlier, they also used another Mehsud, Qari Zainuddin, to target Baitullah Mehsud. Qari Zainuddin was finally shot dead in an ISI safe house later on and had to be buried in a shi'a graveyard. Spreading disinformation is another tactic. Waliur Rehman, a cousin of the slain Baitullah Mehsud was appointed temporarily as the South Waziristan Taliban commander after Baitullah Mehsud's death in 2009. Later Waliur Rehman was also claimed to have been killed along with Hakimullah Mehsud. It was also reported that there was a tussle between the two for the Amir's post in 2009 itself. All these turned out to be false and planted stories by the Pakistani Army.

Hakimullah Mehsud's praise of the ex-NWFP Governor lt. Gen. Orakzai. It is no surprise. Orakzai, as the Governor, was instrumental for peace agreements with the TTP. Much later, when TTP was on a rampage, the PA criticized Lt. Gen. Orakzai for his ineffective approach towards the Taliban. Of course, he had demitted Governor's office by that time.

Another interseting aspect is that the TTP has laid down its conditions for the talks with GoP. these are:

There will be ceasefire
No surrender of arms
PA cannot ask TTP to remove Uzbeks, Chechens, Uyghurs and Arabs from their outfit. The TTP has a right to say so according to the 2005 Srarogha Agreement between the TTP & GoP. The agreement only wanted the TTP to halt attacks on the PA, not even attacks on Pakistan !
TTP has the right to kill anyone whom it considers infidel

One can be sure that like the various 'Peace Agreements' earlier, the current negotiations would also impose humiliating conditions on the PA.

From this post by Anindya, the contours are emerging slowly. It appears that serious moves are afoot for discussions between the TTP and the PA. The TTP's demand for revenge against India after Kasab's hanging was a pointer. Now, from Anindya's post, the TTP are asking for revenge for the 1971 humiliation. They are talking the PA terminology now. The emerging linkages between the 'bad Taliban' and the PA are becoming clearer.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Dec 2012 09:45

After reading past two pages it looks like Taliban are arguing that

Allah > Taliban >>>>>>>>>>>>> TSPA > || Kaifrs .......

And they are asking TSPA to move leftwards and move away from Kafirs.

On the other hand, Indian secularists are trying to tell Taliban that

Ummah > WKKs > INC > Secular Parties >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> || Hindus.

But pakistan's definition is just Muslims || Hindus.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 29 Dec 2012 10:30

rohitvats wrote:Saar, all good bad taliban fighters in JK is nonsense....first things first....what PA was fighting against in FATA was not insurgency of the kind in JK....it was a full bodied war where they were fighting to take the area from under the control of the taliban....taliban were operating there and holding territory like Ahmad Shah Masood in Panjsher valley....the taliban had full logistic backup and war fighting machine. No such thing in Kashmir....they will have to hit the army like insurgents do...no possibility of fighting IA in set piece battle....IA will simply overwhelm any such attempt with kore boots on ground and superior firepower.....the insurgency in JK between 1991 to 95 was the period when IA was trying out methods to deal with the issue and find its feet on the ground.....by 95-96, the machinery and SOP to deal with the situation were in place...and between midnof 90s to 2000, IA got upper hand....ever since, IA has had upper hand to an extent that militancy in JK is for the sake of it....

Afghans/Pashtuns don't even come to Kashmir in large numbers anymore. They took their cue in 90's itself from the beating they took from IA.They are seasoned Guerrillas and hence very smart. A smart guerrilla always knows his limitation. These Afghans/Pashtuns knew at the outset that Indian Army was not Russian Army.

Now its only the frustrated and Brainwashed Pakjabi youth who are carrying the burden of militancy.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2012 10:37

Darshann, Spelling mistake perhaps?
Gorilla instead of guerilla?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Dec 2012 10:43

ramana wrote:Darshann, Spelling mistake perhaps?
Gorilla instead of guerilla?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2012 10:46

SS, When can we expect to see the TTP become the TSPA? What signs and markers?
It looks like matter of time and not whether.