Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

[Comer]

Yes, a subset of the same people elected this Govt and we are paying for it but it didn't get elected on a pro-rape platform. The basic assumption is Govt will take care of it's people and what happens if the basic assumption is now questionable. Just because you are elected for five year term doesn't mean people have to keep quiet for the next five years. I see protests as a feedback into the system which hopefully will correct itself.
Why is the middle class keep getting a raw deal and two bit politician who can get a mob on the road behind him get respect?

[lakshmikanth]

Baikulji,

I agree, we must protest even if the glass looks 99% empty. It is probably the only short term rational action we can do. We must however prepare for the long term, lay the seeds of change. Social media is already doing a good job at it. More than 90% (if not all) of my knowledge about Indian issues come from online social media sites. And unsurprisingly one sees the likes of Kapil Sibal trying to control exactly the same thing.

[Sagar G]

Sagar G,

You should read this wonderful book: WE THE PEOPLE OF INDIA: A Story of Gangland Democracy by MALOY DHAR

All the answers to your questions are available in that book. In short, Indian democracy is a facade, the only thing it has prevented so far is a famine. The rest is built for self-serving vested interest.

Indian democracy is a facade is because of it's people. I find it really ridiculous that people first elect murderers, rapists, goons, baahubalis, corrupt into the corridors of power and for the next five years they expect that the same set of people will somehow grow a heart and will work towards securing the peoples/country's interests. If people aren't honest to themselves or to the powers given to them then why they blame the government for all the ills that befalls on our society ???

[Arjun]

I see protests as a feedback into the system which hopefully will correct itself.

If the feedback does not carry the specific threat of government being voted out next time - what would be the incentive for the system to correct itself?

[member_20317]

Murder charges invoked, I am sure capital punishment will be given and upheld by SC as this case falls in the rarest of rare category.

Multiple organ failure will complicate the prosecution's case.

Do not know much but the 'beyond reasonable doubt' can be expected to be a minefield. It is not a 'logical doubt' they are talking about, it is a 'legal doubt' that will come in the way. Logically it is clear the girl died because of the crime. Legally the 'chain of evidence' has to be established and chain can easily be expected to be weak in the Hospital.

A politically motivated judgement can however not be ruled out.


Added later : I am not trained in criminal law.

[lakshmikanth]

Indian democracy is a facade is because of it's people. I find it really ridiculous that people first elect murderers, rapists, goons, baahubalis, corrupt into the corridors of power and for the next five years they expect that the same set of people will somehow grow a heart and will work towards securing the peoples/country's interests. If people aren't honest to themselves or to the powers given to them then why they blame the government for all the ills that befalls on our society ???

That is because a different set of people (urban middle class < 200 mil population) is protesting and not the people who voted the tzuthiyas to power (rural poor > 500 mil population).

As long as the rural poor are polarized and vote the "party" into power, who gives a damn about urban middle class? The middle class are the ignored minority in all this.

Here is Congress Business plan in one line: Keep the middle class hopeless and the poor hopeful.

That will work because number of poor >> number of middle class, and as can be seen by UPA2 performance, that this is exactly what they have achieved by stunting growth and by giving out doles to folks. Many of the poor are lost for good, but UPA2 might make a lot more souls lost by some of their policies.

[Comer]

I see protests as a feedback into the system which hopefully will correct itself.

If the feedback does not carry the specific threat of government being voted out next time - what would be the incentive for the system to correct itself?

Yes, that is true. But I hoping a governance issue like security becomes a platform in the next election and not some caste/communal issue. That will be a winning platform if the middle class votes as a votebank on governance. That is the only tune the tin eared political class will listen.
Atleast the Govt looks a little scared if not shamed now.
EDIT:

That will work because number of poor >> number of middle class, and as can be seen by UPA2 performance, that this is exactly what they have achieved by stunting growth and by giving out doles to folks. Many of the poor are lost for good, but UPA2 might make a lot more souls lost by some of their policies.

Brilliantly put.

[Sagar G]

Yes, a subset of the same people elected this Govt and we are paying for it but it didn't get elected on a pro-rape platform. The basic assumption is Govt will take care of it's people and what happens if the basic assumption is now questionable. Just because you are elected for five year term doesn't mean people have to keep quiet for the next five years. I see protests as a feedback into the system which hopefully will correct itself.
Why is the middle class keep getting a raw deal and two bit politician who can get a mob on the road behind him get respect?

Not a "subset" but a f*cking big chunk of people have voted this government into power and not once but twice and multiple times before that with absolutely nothing to show in there report cards. The basic assumption is right but when the people keep making the same basic assumption again and again for the same government then the joke is on you. People have the right to protest and they must but a protest must happen to attain some well defined objective. What is the objective here or was in case of 26/11, jan lokpal ??? Were those objectives attained ??? If not then who is responsible for the failure ??? Government I guess

The two bit politician will keep pissing over your face because you like that and hence you deserve the current situation.

P.S.- By saying you I don't mean explicitly you but people.

[yogendra]

Is this the same Ramsingh who is one of the 6/7 accused of the rape? He had appeared before in Kiran Bedi's Aap ki Kacheri complaining against his employer.

Other news report about the rape also had mentioned passingly that Ram singh was involved in an accident before and that there was an metal plate/rod surgically inserted in his hand.

[Arjun]

Yes, that is true. But I hoping a governance issue like security becomes a platform in the next election and not some caste/communal issue. That will be a winning platform if the middle class votes as a votebank on governance. That is the only tune the tin eared political class will listen.
Atleast the Govt looks a little scared if not shamed now.

Don't think so....every time the middle class cries wolf and then nothing turns up, you are actually emboldening the political criminals.

The middle class has already cried wolf twice - one was protests after 26/11, second was the anti-corruption agitation. Both have fizzled out without any effect on the ruling government.

The only way to ensure effective feedback would be to campaign with the specific aim of Delhi leadership being voted out and not rest until that is achieved...You cry wolf one more time - the situation is only going to get much much worse.

[Anujan]

I think the above is from Elephanta caves, the statues were mutilated by the Portuguese. Just a historical note.

Anyway, what a descent of a culture. We have brought this upon ourselves.

They are from ellora. I photographed it recently during a trip.

[Theo_Fidel]

Completely disagree. Outrage reflects on the Societies' value systems. Outrage occurs in many societies.

Absolutely. Sometimes, most times, outrage is the only currency that the common man has to expend on grabbing the attention of otherwise arrogant political elites.

I dunno. Sounds like an abdication of personal responsibility to me. This rape nonsense happens on the ground and is committed by aam janta most more frequently. The aam janta is India have the same outlook as barbarians and I say this from personal experience. Right now most rural males don't think women are their equals and rape is for sport only. The only time it becomes a issue is if one of their relatives is raped then it becomes a 'mannam' issue often avenged by killing both the girl and the rapist. I can't tell you how often I hear that a victim girl is 'spoiled' and should marry the rapist to save her life. People don't want to do the tough job of changing the social structure at present, for instance I have pointed out the corrosive damage arranged marriages have on the status of women only to be yelled down. You don't change the status of women, nothing will change and there will be no incentive for police to invest the money needed to track down and convict every rapist, for the simple reason that women do not count.

[Sagar G]

That is because a different set of people (urban middle class < 200 mil population) is protesting and not the people who voted the tzuthiyas to power (rural poor > 500 mil population).

As long as the rural poor are polarized and vote the "party" into power, who gives a damn about urban middle class? The middle class are the ignored minority in all this.

Here is Congress Business plan in one line: Keep the middle class hopeless and the poor hopeful.

That will work because number of poor >> number of middle class, and as can be seen by UPA2 performance, that this is exactly what they have achieved by stunting growth and by giving out doles to folks. Many of the poor are lost for good, but UPA2 might make a lot more souls lost by some of their policies.

I would have accepted your poor class theory had con been only winning in such places but please tell me how will you explain the wins of con in Delhi, Maha, H.P., A.P., Haryana. These states are not abjectly poor and in poor states like Bihar, U.P., W.B., Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa there is zero to minimal con presence.

[harbans]

For all those that see no merit in the outrage, i suggest they open a thread and debate the merits/ demerits of Outrage and not try and belittle the expressions of disgust here by calling it useless. Remind them the topic of the Thread is:

Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

[Sagar G]

Multiple organ failure will complicate the prosecution's case.

Do not know much but the 'beyond reasonable doubt' can be expected to be a minefield. It is not a 'logical doubt' they are talking about, it is a 'legal doubt' that will come in the way. Logically it is clear the girl died because of the crime. Legally the 'chain of evidence' has to be established and chain can easily be expected to be weak in the Hospital.

A politically motivated judgement can however not be ruled out.


Added later : I am not trained in criminal law.

Neither am I a lawyer but the chain of events leading to the girls death is crystal clear so according to me it is an open and shut case.

[Comer]

Not a "subset" but a f*cking big chunk of people have voted this government into power and not once but twice and multiple times before that with absolutely nothing to show in there report cards. The basic assumption is right but when the people keep making the same basic assumption again and again for the same government then the joke is on you. People have the right to protest and they must but a protest must happen to attain some well defined objective. What is the objective here or was in case of 26/11, jan lokpal ??? Were those objectives attained ??? If not then who is responsible for the failure ??? Government I guess

The two bit politician will keep pissing over your face because you like that and hence you deserve the current situation.

P.S.- By saying you I don't mean explicitly you but people.

Yeah I understand it is frustrating and I am fed up myself. Am sure mature democracies go through such growing pains and we are probably experiencing it. But the point is these processes are iterative and can be glacial. But some events precipitate faster change. A lot of movements and protests be on the slow burner for a while and suddenly a crappy event like this happens which makes people angry with the status quo, which causes a change in the right direction.
JMT.

[Sagar G]

For all those that see no merit in the outrage, i suggest they open a thread and debate the merits/ demerits of Outrage and not try and belittle the expressions of disgust here by calling it useless. Remind them the topic of the Thread is:

Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Why if your "outrage" is just and pointed in the right direction you must be able to defend it na why this lecturing now that the people questioning it must move out ??? The people questioning it might also be outraged by the misdirected anger being vented out here and trying to set things right.

[lakshmikanth]

This maybe OT, so apolgies.

Sagar G ji,

Do you think only abjectly poor rural folks vote based on irrational motivations (caste/religion polarization/sickular nature??)? A lot of the country is truly blind, in the sense they have not realized the power of democracy or how to use it.

For example:
My dad is quite old, reads an old mallu paper (paid Kongi news peddling one) everyday and is a fervent supporter of CON party because its sickular. Even when I pulled out stuff from my research to prove the damage they have done, he refuses to believe it. We almost ended up having a drunken fist fight one night.

He votes every election. We grew up lower middle class. My grandpa used to vote congress, he was poor.

But now the younger generation is waking up, so this UPA win (UPA2) was primarily driven by rural/poor votes. I have not looked into recent election to comment. Haryana maybe anti-incumbency though.

[Theo_Fidel]

For all those that see no merit in the outrage, i suggest they open a thread and debate the merits/ demerits of Outrage and not try and belittle the expressions of disgust here by calling it useless. Remind them the topic of the Thread is:Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

What kind of logic is this boss. It is easy to stand on the sidewalk, wave a cheap placard and proclaim how 'outraged' one is. But now what you gonna do about it. Other than blame the government for everything and start a Aam Janata no-rape party..

What are you going to do personally in your life that will change the status of women? Not a tough question.

[Comer]

Don't think so....every time the middle class cries wolf and then nothing turns up, you are actually emboldening the political criminals.

The middle class has already cried wolf twice - one was protests after 26/11, second was the anti-corruption agitation. Both have fizzled out without any effect on the ruling government.

The only way to ensure effective feedback would be to campaign with the specific aim of Delhi leadership being voted out and not rest until that is achieved...You cry wolf one more time - the situation is only going to get much much worse.

Yes, true. Unless it is backed up by throwing them out in the next election it may not amount to aything.
Right now I agree there is an incoherent rage and scattershot objectives. Which is par for a movement which is grassroot driven and big tent. But the problem of having a campaign to drive out this govt tacked on to a protest to ensure safety, will lead to Congi sharks sniffing blood in the water. Which is what happened to anti corruption movement.

[Comer]

It is easy to stand on the sidewalk, wave a cheap placard and proclaim how 'outraged' one is.

Have you seen how "easy" it was in the past few days?

[Sagar G]

Sagar G ji,

Do you think only abjectly poor rural folks vote based on irrational motivations (caste/religion polarization/sickular nature??)? A lot of the country is truly blind, in the sense they have not realized the power of democracy or how to use it.

Now saar you are making the right point, the problem isn't just with the poor and malleable population but the way people understand democracy. For most idiots democracy == voting on the set date and chest beating about it like they are some f*cking gift from God to this nation.

For example:
My dad is quite old, reads an old mallu paper (paid Kongi news peddling one) everyday and is a fervent supporter of CON party because its sickular. Even when I pulled out stuff from my research to prove the damage they have done, he refuses to believe it. We almost ended up having a drunken fist fight one night.

He votes every election. We grew up lower middle class. My grandpa used to vote congress, he was poor.

But now the younger generation is waking up, so this UPA win (UPA2) was primarily driven by rural/poor votes. I have not looked into recent election to comment. Haryana maybe anti-incumbency though.

I also had the same problem in my house but as soon as I grew up I started giving hard time to my parents questioning there choices to the extent that either they don't vote or they vote but not to con. I also have a WKK brother and he can surely look upto some pretty hard time as soon as I meet him

Quoting Gandhi Be the change you want to see in the world

[harbans]

Why if your "outrage" is just and pointed in the right direction you must be able to defend it na why this lecturing now that the people questioning it must move out ???

Sure i will. Lets open a thread. Those outraged against this outrage can surely open up one, can they not? Why try and dilute the very purpose of this thread?

[lakshmikanth]

Completely disagree. Outrage reflects on the Societies' value systems. Outrage occurs in many societies.

Absolutely. Sometimes, most times, outrage is the only currency that the common man has to expend on grabbing the attention of otherwise arrogant political elites.

I dunno. Sounds like an abdication of personal responsibility to me. This rape nonsense happens on the ground and is committed by aam janta most more frequently. The aam janta is India have the same outlook as barbarians and I say this from personal experience. Right now most rural males don't think women are their equals and rape is for sport only. The only time it becomes a issue is if one of their relatives is raped then it becomes a 'mannam' issue often avenged by killing both the girl and the rapist. I can't tell you how often I hear that a victim girl is 'spoiled' and should marry the rapist to save her life. People don't want to do the tough job of changing the social structure at present, for instance I have pointed out the corrosive damage arranged marriages have on the status of women only to be yelled down. You don't change the status of women, nothing will change and there will be no incentive for police to invest the money needed to track down and convict every rapist, for the simple reason that women do not count.

I agree, arranged marriage is very tribal and needs to be completely done away with. A look at any Tamil/Telugu/Mallu movie would give an idea of how women are treated these days in our society (most of them condone kidnapping, violence and some even rape).

Men's re-calibration, Women's education and serious law enforcement are the need of the hour. The first one would happen only if the second one happens and results in more women being productive with serious jobs. Serious law enforcement will happen only when the Congis have nothing to hide.

Women getting their sexual/marital freedom had a lot to do with them being productive members rather than sit at home folks in most of the "advanced" western society.

[Sagar G]

It is easy to stand on the sidewalk, wave a cheap placard and proclaim how 'outraged' one is.

Have you seen how "easy" it was in the past few days?

So it was "hard" for you. I mean this is your grand plan to bring change in India doing dhimmi protests and then whining when police go in lathicharge mode ???

[Hari Seldon]

Am pretty suar lowlives and ambulance chasers (a certain R jethmarani or the bhushans come to mind) will line up to defend the rapist barbarians in court only. What to do, phree publicity only. Besides, after all, no one killed jessica only. No?

#aakthoo

[harbans]

What kind of logic is this boss. It is easy to stand on the sidewalk, wave a cheap placard and proclaim how 'outraged' one is.

Theo i am not your Boss. But i would appreciate if you understood the sensitivity and let people express themselves on this thread, not belittle that expression. That we have seen being done by many representatives in the last few days. I am sure, no one is waving a cheap placard here, except perhaps those that belittle the genuine hurt that folks here have expressed. So open up a new thread and ask your questions there.

[Sagar G]

I agree, arranged marriage is very tribal and needs to be completely done away with. A look at any Tamil/Telugu/Mallu movie would give an idea of how women are treated these days in our society (most of them condone kidnapping, violence and some even rape).

Highly OT discussing about marriage here but Love Marriages are no single shot solution for society's malice against womens. In TFTA lands love marriages happen but even there womens have to face discrimination. Uber TFTA Khanland registers close to a Lakh cases of rape every year. So people should be allowed to choose whether they want an arranged marriage or a love one.

[Hari Seldon]

^^+1 Harbans ji,

I think Theo's Qs are reasonable and ought to find expression, but they would be OT on this dhaga (given its precisely defined subject)

[Sagar G]

Sure i will. Lets open a thread. Those outraged against this outrage can surely open up one, can they not? Why try and dilute the very purpose of this thread?

I am not diluting the outrage but only questioning where will this outrage lead to ??? I don't see how by putting this question forward I dilute this thread. I haven't made fun of anyone or the victim.

[Comer]

So it was "hard" for you. I mean this is your grand plan to bring change in India doing dhimmi protests and then whining when police go in lathicharge mode ???

Yes, it is hard for a typical middle class protester who is seeing the business end of a lathi and water canon or tear gas for the first time. Next time they will know what is coming. Maybe you are a lot tougher than a lot of people out there. I am not.
This is not a grand plan, this is just an outrage/protest. If you think this is some cowering dhimmi protests I am watching a different one. A protest and whinging is better than whinging alone.

[Theo_Fidel]

Harbans,

I did not say anything for the first 4 pages, but the time for talk has passed. In the time of this 4 pages another 100 or so women have been raped in India. A dozen or so died or killed themselves. We need to get over our sense of hurt and start influencing changes on the ground.

My last.

[Sagar G]

Yes, it is hard for a typical middle class protester who is seeing the business end of a lathi and water canon or tear gas for the first time. Next time they will know what is coming. Maybe you are a lot tougher than a lot of people out there. I am not.
This is not a grand plan, this is just an outrage/protest. If you think this is some cowering dhimmi protests I am watching a different one. A protest and whinging is better than whinging alone.

OK fine I respect your views and will stop posting here because some people think that others are derailing this thread. So people go ahead and express your outrage.

[Comer]

Likewise, I respect your views and it is just a difference of opinion. No problems from my side if you are posting here.

[Gus]

reality of what passes for criminal justice here

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 801681.cms

CHENNAI: In a shocking revelation, 68 cases of rape, some of them of 2004 vintage, are pending before the special court trying offences committed against women.

Even the pendency if these 68 cases before the Mahila Court here is considered only a tip of the iceberg, admit prosecutors and jurists. "Many cases are yet to reach the charge sheet stage enabling the Court's concerned to commit them to us for commencing the trial," said a prosecutor.

Disposal of rape cases is extremely slow as evidenced by records. According to the State Crimes Record Bureau statistics, a whopping 82.9% of all rape cases registered in Tamil Nadu still remained stuck at various levels of judiciary, as of 2011.

"The special court here gets about 10 new cases, including cases of dowry deaths and rape, every month," said Gauri Ashokan, special public prosecutor at the Mahila Court, Chennai. "So far the disposal rate was about 15 cases a month. But during the past one and half years we have picked up pace. In 2012, we disposed of 138 cases so far, all categories. We are pushing for disposal of rape cases within six months. But sometimes cases which land here are already much-delayed in the lower court. We have a 2004 rape case that came to us only in 2008. Not only the accused is absconding, even the victim is untraceable."

Like cases involving juveniles, the law ordains that cases involving rapes too must be speedily settled to spare victim the trauma of a long and weary battle. But long trial processes, delays by defendants and inadequate judicial members have made the system slow.

The prosecution blames defense lawyers for the delay. "The defence side always tries to push for adjournments," said Gauri. "Unfortunately, we cannot deny them the right to take adjournments, as it is well within their constitutional rights. The trial, however, gets delayed."

Defence advocates, on the other hand, complain that the investigation is slow and the preparation on both sides incomplete. "Prosecution often is unable to produce the witnesses on time," said advocate V Kannadasan. "In many cases, the eye witness might be a homeless person or moves out of of his original residential address due to genuine reasons. As police would have cited him as prosecution witness, unless he is produced in time,there will be delay and the success of the prosecution too will be in doubt."

Summing up the situation, a former Mahila Court prosecutor said: "With all these delays, the accused cannot be kept in jail for the entire period of trial, so he is granted bail. Once the accused is out, the chances of him threatening or influencing the victim to withdraw the case or opt for settlement is high. Over a period, the victim turns hostile leaving the case remains in a limbo. This explains why conviction rate in rape cases, just as other cases, too has dipped alarmingly. Ideally, we should be able to complete rape trials in 3-4 sittings on a fast track court mode, with no bail and no adjournments."

[harbans]

Sagar G and Theo Ji, can we take these discussions to the new thread?

[Philip]

My friends,our memories are so short,especially that of our media.Can anyone tell me what the "National Bravery Award" is and who it is named after? The Chopra children,who were abducted,the girl raped and both children murdered.It happened in 1978.During the media coverage of this bestial and barbaric act of criminality,I never heard a single news channel recollect this equally savage act of rape and murder,for which in less than a month's time,on Republic Day,our brave children will perhaps be paraded upon an elephant-as was done in the past,and our political despots and their supporting cast of babudom,will pat themselves on their backs and say "well done"! has anything changed in Delhi since that act of bestiality?

I am so glad that Sheila Bulls*it was prevented from joining the mourners today.Her claim to fame is her ignominious role in the CWG infrastructure scams,her hypocrisy truly exposed as well as that of her lady and mistress,our Italian born neo-colonial queen.As for her Sancho Panza,the missing link,his absence and silence in the first few days after the outrage has been noted by Indians every where. It took him less time to react when the Economist magazine criticised him on the economy.He reacted faster then.If gthe slimeballs of the UPA-2 think that tomorrow all will be forgotten and forgiven,then they are sadly mistaken.Elections are not too far away and when they come,we will see this bunch of trash thrown into the garbage bin lock,stock and Sonia.

PS:Apart from bringing in fast-track courts and punishments,every city and town should have a "Crimes against Women" special cell,also involving NGOs who will render assistance/monitoring of such cases when they occur and give immediate relief and support to the victims,legal and medical.These cells should also have direct access to the CM/HMs offices for full support if the need requires,such as insufficient police action,etc. Bringing in the perpetrators of such horrendous crimes to justice in the shortest time possible,is perhaps the best way in which they can be reduced.It requires a new mindset to occur in our countrymen before to drastically reduce such acts of barbarism.

[member_20317]

Gen. V. K. Singh did try to remind of Sanjay and Geeta Chopra on a TV channel but these TV walas had important thing on hand. Most times the media guys were keen on playing the Kongi spokespeople.

The critical mass of understanding people is there. The primary works fine, the trouble is the secondary is in effect inert in the presense of Media with is acting as a deflector instead of acting as a reflector.

[Philip]

One is reminded of the classic film "Network" and how real life events are reduced to the banality of show ratings and stock prices.The media very often dehumanises the event by its relentless nature of being a devouring beast,manipulating and consuming everything related to the event/incident of focus,wanting to be "top dog" in its coverage = $!

[eklavya]

Nirbhaya, brave and true. We (government and society) have failed you. Let us not forgive and not forget: we owe it to you, your family, and to all the women of India.

These were written five months ago:

Why is India so bad for women?

The death of Kali