Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

[JaiS]

F*ck you Ajai. Does this guy have a twitter?

Here you go.

[Surya]

if he said that - then track 2 truly paid for his soul

ok saw it

what a %#@%#@%#$%

ack thooo

[RamaY]

All that videotaping indicates that IA has gone into the MHA mode of crime scene dossa.

Why are those two Paki posts still in existence?

Exactly my thoughts. Looks like army is doing police job while police are busy being political goondas.

This is the unique contribution of MMS 1&2

[Shrinivasan]

if he said that - then track 2 truly paid for his soul
ack thooo

Hopefully all the Track Two / Aman Ki Tamasha bull$hit end...

[merlin]

Let us see what Bikram Singh is going to do now?

[Comer]

To begin with, at bare minimum, Army should stop this Wagah gate choreography nonsense. Paki rat soldiers should not be treated as equal.

[RamaY]

With all due respect, I seriously doubt IA can be any different from other Indian social/organizational group.

We have seen quite a many retired/serving officers behave the same way, for example, the police force does. Some of them are even participating in track2 diplomacy.

My prayers are with the families of the brace soldiers. I curse every Indian who is talking about peace with enemies of Bharat.

[Vipul]

Let us see what Bikram Singh is going to do now?

Must say you live on high hopes.

Moot Mut Singh and his cotiere pulled the hatchet job on ex-chief V B Singh to bring this yes men as incharge so that he would quickly agree and rubber stamp the handing over of Indian territories to pakistan.

[Vipul]

F*ck you Ajai. Does this guy have a twitter?

Here you go.

So what finally got Shocklaw into the Puki side? Lifafa/ frequent vilaiti 5 Star Hotels/airfare/Prime TV time appearances as "expert" or Madame's famous gang of Janana "Analyst"?

[Vipul]

I am waiting to Puke if somebody mentions India is being Chanakian in not reacting to Puki provocations.

[chetak]

{quote="RoyG"}

F*ck you Ajai. Does this guy have a twitter?

Here you go.{/quote}

So what finally got Shocklaw into the Puki side? Lifafa/ frequent vilaiti 5 Star Hotels/airfare/Prime TV time appearances as "expert" or Madame's famous gang of Janana "Analyst"?

must have caught the faker dipping his wick in some islamic pond.

[vivek_ahuja]

I am waiting to Puke if somebody mentions India is being Chanakian in not reacting to Puki provocations.

Same here. That would be self flagellation at its best.

[Misraji]

Secret border raids for settling scores is a good way of dealing with these jerks.
We will absorb a couple of highly public raids.
But we will pay back with a raid thats twice as silent and 10 times worse.
Let unofficial channels gloat about how IA dragged back a couple of wanted terrorists from POK.

However is it too much to ask for the politicians to not use wimpy statements?
A simple "We will deal with it in a befitting way" would have been fine.
Nope. They have to say "We have lodged a STRONG protest" to add insult to the injury!!!

--Ashish.

[suryag]

yeah and our politicians can also add that we are going to go on hunger strike so that pakis will give up their evil ways and reform themselves

[karan_mc]

Get some Pinaka up there and practice carpet bombing , Bikram Singh India does not need another silent Sardar .

[vivek_ahuja]

Get some Pinaka up there and practice carpet bombing , Bikram Singh India does not need another silent Sardar .

Since we have two parallel threads rolling on the same topic, here's my response to a similar statement from RamaY

Spirit of the argument aside, I think you missed the discussion the other day about our lack of rockets for the Pinaka.

Also the absence of NVGs because BEL needs the contract.
Also ball-less army commander.
Also bad equipment on border with good equipment only for US-India joint exercises.
Also no artillery guns
Also 10,000 crore reduced from budget reducing army cold start modernization
Also...

Well you know how it is.

[Austin]

Outrageous and Sad to hear our jawans being treated in such a uncivilized manner . May his Soul RIP and Condolence to his family.

Not the first time the uncivilized barbarians did that to our soldier , Kargil is still fresh in our memories.

Dont expect any thing to come from GOI just the routine DGMO meeting and condemnation from MEA and MOD .

Observing GOI for past 20 years and post Kargil , Parliament and 26/11 I dont have much hope something befitting will come from our side.

[rajanb]

Secret border raids for settling scores is a good way of dealing with these jerks.
We will absorb a couple of highly public raids.
But we will pay back with a raid thats twice as silent and 10 times worse.Let unofficial channels gloat about how IA dragged back a couple of wanted terrorists from POK. And why not publicise it a few months later? And target the commandos of the Baloch regiment.

However is it too much to ask for the politicians to not use wimpy statements? By now we should know our politicians do not recognise there @rses from their elbows. What is from the toilet should be consigned to the toilet without us getting het up about it.
A simple "We will deal with it in a befitting way" would have been fine.
Nope. They have to say "We have lodged a STRONG protest" to add insult to the injury!!!

--Ashish.

And if news repoerts are to be believed, intelligence had warned of Porki activity in that area. This, if true, is a heartening fact. A pull back from the IKG stupidity.

I, for one, believe, that even if a few army guys are politicised, it will be the men at the border who will plot a reprisal. Some of them will be audacious and brave and no higher ups in Delhi will be able to stop them.

Have faith brothers.

[atreya]

@ ^^ Exactly! While our government is spineless, I say, trust the Army to retaliate. There was a similar incident 1-2 years ago. Posting the relevant links

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=1&t=6407

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=3880

And some quotes

Highly placed military sources told The Hindu that the fighting began after two Indian soldiers were beheaded in an attack on a forward position by a jihadist unit. Indian special forces responded by targeting a Pakistani forward post, killing several soldiers. Intermittent clashes continued through the year, into December.

Rohitvats' quote

However, rest assured, such things never-ever go w/o retribution. If true, this will a big challenge to the izzat of the paltan and IA. And men are known to take extreme measures for far less - this is a grave provocation. Also, certain fellows are know to go across and avenge such happenings and with vengence.

Surya's quote

Retaliation is delivered

at a time of our choosing and with interest

Pgbhat's quote

From my Paanwala. By and large retaliation/actions by INA is not dependent on Delhi. All decisions are taken by local commanders. However any crossing of borders by spec. forces needs to come down from Delhi as it has strategic implications if soldiers are captured.

So yes, all hope is not lost.

[Prem]

Only immediate action to be done quietly is to have NAVY to sink few PN ships. Hit them on the weakest point. Better, if they can sink their Agosta.

[kenop]

This guy Ajai Shukla was a colonel in the IA. Looks like he has been treated well by the ISPR on his recent trips to the pakhanaland.
Shuklaji on the track II team
Lahore nama

[Prem Kumar]

Atreya: justice must not only be done but must also seen to be done. Otherwise the average Indian will think the IA is a bunch of wimps. They already know that our political "leadership" is one.

[kenop]

Will it be fair to say that PA has gone ahead and showed strategic brilliance with these ghastly murders? In fact, this mornings clippings from Arnab Goswami last night's show every Indian penalist's comment looked like: "it will put roadblocks in the piss process". Some creative editing going on there.
Ah, btw, just after one such clipping they showed a monkey tamasha ad where one Bengali Baboo is discussing cricket with his birather from across the border. Very touching indeed. The place where they make kirkit-love is just near the Taj Mahal Hotel. I wonder who is producing/directing all these ads. Must be some deeply retro-reverse-chanikian or whatever term could be created to describe it.

[Deans]

he added, saying any response would be "proportionate".[/quote]
No, it must be proportionate

At this point you will be lucky to get any response, let alone proportionate/disproportionate.[/quote]

I suppose GoI will send a disproportionately large dossier

[SSridhar]

Atreya: justice must not only be done but must also seen to be done. Otherwise the average Indian will think the IA is a bunch of wimps. They already know that our political "leadership" is one.

I completely agree. When retaliation happens, the IA should release to the press a statement that the beheading has been avenged.

[vic]

I think massive retaliation is the need of the hour but in Pak-Afghan border or deep inside Balochistan

[Sri]

Generally a company will be taking care of around 10 to 12 posts held in a string of dominating features. Same way there would be Pakistan posts, visible to Indians. Dominating patrols are generally sent everyday 3 to 4 times. They are men from company's reserves, who visit every post physically and collect logs, and also as morale booster for men in these isolated posts. These patrols do carry wireless.

Now from what we can gather from media is that one such patrol noticed incursion and decided to engage the enemy. These engagements happen all the time. These are general shots in the air by the post (will go in log). The enemy is warned and generally these are theater level SOPs developed by 2 commanders who are in holding pattern. Normally once detected the SOP is to return to nearest post and immediately deescalate.

Now if the idea is purposeful escalation then obviously the enemy is going to test the strength of defenses. The Jawans in patrol would have noticed this and would have thought of this as a usual SOP type fit. As they were still under the impression that holding pattern is on. In general the fire should be opened from Post but I am sure as media reports suggests it was a thick fog and forest area. without a visual the post could have fired in general direction could have cause own causalities. Hence the engagement.

My guess is that posts understood what was happening between them. But they are manning the post, under no circumstance they can abandon it, so they couldn't go for rescue. The company reserve would have taken atleast 15 to 20 mins to reach by this time 2 jawans were injured 2 killed. Once approaching reserves were detected the Pakis retreated but not before committing this gruesome act. I am sure they would have taken 2 if there was no back up response.

So it is not the inadequacy of equipment and non availability of back up. It was just that our patrol engaged with superior forces, which was not expected or known (Kargil patrols). Obviously, proud Rajputs will never retreat once engaged, that's the hallmark of our infantry and Pakis know it.

Such a strong patrol from Paki side would have been a surprise. Why such a patrol was sent in the first place? Was it to neutralize one of our posts? Were they themselves surprised being engaged by another Patrol?

[sum]

Such a strong patrol from Paki side would have been a surprise. Why such a patrol was sent in the first place? Was it to neutralize one of our posts? Were they themselves surprised being engaged by another Patrol?

The answer would seem yes if we go by the reports in couple of newspapers

[Sanku]

On the Track II Shukla >> I told you so, at least 3 years before.

The journey starts long before the destination is reached, you know where a person is going by looking at his path.

Shukla has been a Boeing asset (hence an asset of US/Paki joint enterprise, currently in great favor in New Delhi with Man mohan at helm) -- he speaks their world views, supports issues in way that their interests are first and foremost met.

Of course given that Man mohan/Sonia's UPA is no different, he is currently the toast of town and gets major access to powers that be.

[anand_sankar]

I doubt if Mr Shukla is hearing himself talk right now. I have always hated his attitude right from the time I had to edit his writing. He has done a bit of good work, but overwhelmingly over the last few years he has been overtly pro-US, pro-establishment and doesn't like to ruffle feathers with all the access he is getting.

It is all right to talk de-escalation, but the fact is that a ghastly act has taken place. To preserve the morale of troops on the line, we have to at least be seen talking in the right tone. If Mr Shukla goes to visit the LOC tomorrow, I wonder with what face he will look at the soldiers posted there.

[Yogi_G]

Bleeding heart p-sec libs will say that this is the act of non-state actors trying to "sabotage" the nascent peace process a.k.a aman ki tamasha. Ably supporting them will be the naPaki civilian govt which will say that it was local Kashmiri "fighting for water and power" jihadis who did it all, hell they kept saying that even when it was learnt that the NLI was wiped out in Kargil.

Enough is enough, if this will lead to a spiral of violence so be it and Pakistan can never win a prolonged fight with us. It so appears that the Pakis need a tight slap from SDREs every decade or so, you can expect the TFTA army to cower into dark holes as soon as the Indian kshatriya takes his sword out. We are descendants of Parasurama and they are "descendants" of Qasim who was killed brutally for delivering non-virgins.

I expect a strong reaction from IA and PA will again stage one and the spiral will continue, we are OK with it. Let's atleast give our dying soldiers a honourable death as against a "tail between legs" kind of response we are giving now.

[peter]

"I find myself in the astonishing position of agreeing with the Pakistani on the show" (53:20)

F*ck you Ajai. Does this guy have a twitter?

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bu ... /261139?hp

The first part of this broadcast has the reporter saying that the army commander Parmanaik is trying to calm the tempers of soldiers in Raj Rif. Why should'nt the soldiers take the matter in their own hands and wipe out any of the pakis they see on the other side?

Unless this is done the Pakis will never develop a fear that their actions have a brutal repercussion.

Pussies leading us.

[rohitvats]

if he said that - then track 2 truly paid for his soul

ok saw it

what a %#@%#@%#$%

ack thooo

Well, he was one of three people who favored the 'Confidence Building Measure' along with Kanwal and ACM.

[rohitvats]

With all due respect, I seriously doubt IA can be any different from other Indian social/organizational group.

<SNIP>

Please - you can stop this pontificating as if only you know what is best for the country. A moderator makes one nonsensical comment on the "IA going the MHA route" and we have the usual bandwagon of whines and rants.

Inspite of your misgivings and suspicions, IA seems to be doing pretty fine - the meddling of politicians and bureaucrats notwithstanding. This is not the first time serious confrontation has happened on LOC and nor will it be the last. And each time IA pays back as it deems best - there is a reason that such cross-border incidents are rare...Pakis know what will comes after them. The beheading thing was meant to inflict pain - and it did. Rest assured, if the history is anything to go by, IA will manage this on its own - it does not require to be 'unleashed' by powers that be.

[mody]

These kind of border skirmishes are quite common along the LoC.
Generally it used to be firing at each others posts and causing damage and a few casualties.

The things have changed in the past 3-4 years, when small groups of soldiers, have actually been crossing over to the other side and taking action.

There were some vague reports about 6-8 months back, about an Indian commando team crossing over and causing major damage to a paki post that had been involved in firing on the Indian side.
The current paki action was on similar lines and meant to avenge a border firing incident that took place last week. Apparently, atleast 1 porki was killed in the firing and some more injured, in the incident that took place last week. The Indian action was in retaliation for paki cover firing for infiltrators.

The sad part is that the porki's succeeded in their nefarious plan, of ambushing a patrol party and the barbarity that they have shown in doing it. It was meant to send a message, that they will not take Indian action on their posts, lying down.
The message has been received. The barbaric act will not go unpunished. RajRif will certainly take its pound of flesh, at their time of choosing.
The porki's made the mistake of brutalising the bodies of the soldiers killed. Some pigs will definitely have to pay for this.

The weapons upgrade for the Infantry and weapons and technology needed to truly dominate the pakis on the LoC should have been IA's priority over the last decade. We should be able to reply with a sledge hammer response for any provocation by the pakis. The God of War, Artillery along with Anti-Material Rifles, Long range Sniper Rifles, night vision goggles, infra Red hand held thermal imagers, Motion sensors, area wide Battle field surveillance Radars, that can detect Human being sized objects from a few kms away etc. all of them should be standard equipment. All posts on the border should have multiple night vision goggles and hand held thermal imagers.
The entire LoC should be crawling with multiple types of surveillance equipment.

The IA and IAF have been after shiny new toys that cost billions of dollars, but have not spent the few millions required, for the above type of equipment. They should concentrate their efforts on truly being the masters of the night along the LoC and the International border.

Atleast 600 nos. of 155 mm artillery pieces should get deployed all along the LoC, to respond with ferocity to any provocation from the paki side. Any paki post offering cover fire to the terrorists, should be completely wiped out. We should also take further steps and take over or completely destroy any paki post, along the LoC, where they enjoy an overwhelming advantage vis-a-vi our corresponding post.
The pakis will try to retaliate, but our response and our resources should always be disproportionate. Soon enough the constant bludgeoning will silence the pakis into submission and incidents of infiltration would decrease.

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>The first part of this broadcast has the reporter saying that the army commander Parmanaik is trying to calm the tempers of soldiers in Raj Rif. Why should'nt the soldiers take the matter in their own hands and wipe out any of the pakis they see on the other side?

Unless this is done the Pakis will never develop a fear that their actions have a brutal repercussion.

Pussies leading us.

Peter - who do you think you're dealing with here? Some local hooligans and ruffians hell bent on revenge against opposite camp? You can do better than to call someone like Northern Army Commander as a 'pussy'.

Remember, this is an Infantry Battalion of a senior Infantry Regiment we are talking here - professional soldiers. Even with tempers running high, you cannot let sentiments dominate military matters - lest you end up with more egg on your face. If the soldiers have their way, they would simply do a frontal assault on the Pakistan Army post - consequences be damned.

As I said earlier - this incident is an affront to the IZZAT of the Paltan and it will not go w/o payback. If the payback does not come, the Commanding Officer (and every other officer) of the Regiment would have lost his MORAL authority to command the men. And the Paltan will carry this as a cross across their neck for generations. Such things are not forgotten in the IA. You can very well fathom the mood in the Paltan by the fact that Northern Army Commander went to the Paltan to assuage the feelings.

Just to get a feeling of what a Paltan will do for honor, please read on the account of 1 Bihar and Battle for Jubar...they wanted to avenge Major Sarvanan and bring back his body - they won't let anyone else assault that feature.

The retaliation will come but at the time and place of our choosing...the PA would be expecting a retaliation and will be ready and waiting for us. This needs to be planned carefully - 13 Rajputana Rifles will have their revenge.

[habal]

I have said this before, that the correct response to such an incident is not bombing by pinakas or obliterating through smerches. We need to go back in history and learn from the forefathers of the pakis. Babar used to make a pillar of heads to put fear into the hearts of the enemies. His own ilk though had no fear of these tactics and used to make a tower with heads of Babar's men. So one step better would be to kidnap 15-30-40 paki soldiers including some higher rank ones when they are out on patrol or else abduct a few successfully from their base camps. Subsequently bomb and flatten considerable number of their border posts and if they misbehave use the captured 30-40 as bargaining chips and parade them on rajpath or make tower with their heads or bazooka them back into pakistan wrapped in pigskin. So many options open up.

[mody]

Completely agree with Rohit. RajRif will respond at the place and time of their choosing. There won't be the brutality and inhuman behaviour, like the pakis. But expect the death toll for the pigs to be much higher. Something like 10 or more, Tum 1 Maroge to Hum Chaar Marenge, plus extra for your Barbaric act.

[chaanakya]

Obviously, proud Rajputs will never retreat once engaged, that's the hallmark of our infantry and Pakis know it.

Isn't Gen VKS was commissioned into Rajput Regiment?
It is highly decorated Regiment.

I think We should understand the predicament of PA. zehaard elements are not under their control and they have been doing more or less similar things to them as well. Now it is established that Western Border is not under effective control of PA and zehaardis are roaming free and doing heinous acts at will, They might do the same to PA in western Sector. I mean raid from Indian side of border in Kashmir and and withdraw. IA should remain alert for any signs of such acts and also alert PA in Border meeting beforehand. These zehaardis can go to any extent. The incident should , least of all, be not politicised and we must extend sympathy to PA for the fate that may befall them as well.

[habal]

My feeling is that the Sawan Patra post incident happened post this incident and not vice-versa. This incident was disclosed only after the Haji Pir incursion by IA. Because uptil the incursion, it is the army that has to inform the politican chain of command so they have time till then to do as they please. Only once the news is released to media, the politicking starts. Maybe there has been a chain of to-and-fro before the news was made public.