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Q: But Hafiz Saeed roams freely on the streets of Lahore where your government is in power.
Nawaz Sharif: When we ask the federal government about Hafiz Saeed, they say India has not given much evidence, which is why even the courts are unable to take action. Our government in Punjab doesn't have much of a role because the matter is being considered in the Islamabad court.
As a conundrum, this one is hard to beat, possibly because it is uniquely Indian. Why has appeasement of hardliners in Pakistan, an avowedly communal state carved out of the two-nation theory, become a touchstone for secularism in India? If this were limited to an irony it would doubtless find its level in the varied folds of public discourse. As an artful strategy to legitimize the present UPA government’s weak knees, it has more disturbing implications.
The subtext is subtle. There are only two sides to this coin of Manmohan Singh’s realm: accommodation or war, a nonsense familiar to historians of Europe between the first two world wars. An ultimatum is the last resort, not the first one; and there are many stages in-between, as President Obama’s policy towards Iran, for instance, indicates. But in the dictum laid down by Delhi, you either accept Pakistan’s token verbiage, or risk derision as a hawk.
Pakistan’s hard line towards India is held by the Army, which takes the final call on India, whether in strategic planning or real-time response. Its thinking is rooted in Partition. India won freedom from the British. Pakistan won independence from India. Pakistan’s fundamentalist patriots therefore locate the existentialist threat from India. Expand or manouvre the matrix and a man wanted across the world for terrorism, Hafiz Saeed, gets transformed into a commander of the faithful doing his duty in a holy war on Mumbai. Does this make dialogue impossible? No. But it makes it more complex.
Singh, backed firmly by Sonia Gandhi, has no use for complications. He bends in the hope that one more storm will pass over. But between Pakistan’s intransigence over terrorism, his own capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh within nine months of Mumbai, a succession of Pakistan officials who taunt India on Indian soil, and the mutilation of two Indian soldiers this week along the Rampur-Haji Ali sector, Dr Singh seems to have bent so far that he looks prostrate.
Shiv Aroor @ShivAroor
HAHAHA! Cute. RT @HBaloch12: Intense firing at LoC in Poonch for last 2 hours. Indian soldiers tried to cross the LoC, Pak Army retaliating.
B Raman who has in the past consistently discussed TSP with regards to India is overlooking the LoC issue. Me wondering why in the light of his recent article
It might as well be the case that the articles are produced centrally and ran under different people's names.
In this particular case the amount of crap makes me sure that it is produced by the man himself.
GAURAV C. SAWANT @gauravcsawant
Is there any point of the flag meeting sir? @rwac48 what do we hope to achieve? or is this just another show for the sake of talks
Lt Gen H S Panag(R) @rwac48
@gauravcsawant Nothing more than exchange of pleasantries and a cup of tea!
As a conundrum, this one is hard to beat, possibly because it is uniquely Indian. Why has appeasement of hardliners in Pakistan, an avowedly communal state carved out of the two-nation theory, become a touchstone for secularism in India? If this were limited to an irony it would doubtless find its level in the varied folds of public discourse. As an artful strategy to legitimize the present UPA government’s weak knees, it has more disturbing implications.
The subtext is subtle. There are only two sides to this coin of Manmohan Singh’s realm: accommodation or war, a nonsense familiar to historians of Europe between the first two world wars. An ultimatum is the last resort, not the first one; and there are many stages in-between, as President Obama’s policy towards Iran, for instance, indicates. But in the dictum laid down by Delhi, you either accept Pakistan’s token verbiage, or risk derision as a hawk.
Pakistan’s hard line towards India is held by the Army, which takes the final call on India, whether in strategic planning or real-time response. Its thinking is rooted in Partition. India won freedom from the British. Pakistan won independence from India. Pakistan’s fundamentalist patriots therefore locate the existentialist threat from India. Expand or manouvre the matrix and a man wanted across the world for terrorism, Hafiz Saeed, gets transformed into a commander of the faithful doing his duty in a holy war on Mumbai. Does this make dialogue impossible? No. But it makes it more complex.
Singh, backed firmly by Sonia Gandhi, has no use for complications. He bends in the hope that one more storm will pass over. But between Pakistan’s intransigence over terrorism, his own capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh within nine months of Mumbai, a succession of Pakistan officials who taunt India on Indian soil, and the mutilation of two Indian soldiers this week along the Rampur-Haji Ali sector, Dr Singh seems to have bent so far that he looks prostrate.
Youre right. I read the article by M J Akbar in todays paper, and YES, brf doctrine popped out at me, like nothing else.
M J Akbar reads BRF . Welcome, Mr Akbar. Love your writings.
Frankly guys, I am having a tough time understanding what game is being played. But make no mistake, TSP has again won this round, at least as of today.
As I said way back on the sequence of events, TSP tried its usual hara kiri on the LOC, but this time Indian army was aggressive, they kicked some Paki butt. Maybe they even crossed the LoC. Nothing wrong with that in dealing with TSP perfidy. In response, TSP scored a massive hit and humiliated India. My quetion though is why did Indian army not anticipate this reaction from TSP? Assuming they were caught unawares, and this happend, why did Indian army not retaliate quietly? It seems to me that hiding behind political leadership's WKKism is a convenient excuse for inaction. Who leaked this gory beheading act to the media? What did the army hope to achieve by leaking this to DDM? Everbody knows that short of physical action, everything on the diplomatic front is either equal equal or disadvantage India given TSP's 3.5 friends. What was the purpose in crying through the media? India achieved nothing except looking like a bunch of whining eunuchs. In contrast, as MJA pointed out, TSP hit hard and also grabbed the diplomatic advantage. The whole thing stinks and many things don't add up.
kasthuri wrote:B Raman who has in the past consistently discussed TSP with regards to India is overlooking the LoC issue. Me wondering why in the light of his recent article
For someone who has a hammer every problem is a nail.
He advocates covert action after admitting that IK Gujral dismantled it against the TSP almost 20 years ago. it will take another lifetime to rebuild this 'covert action" so passionately advocated.
Its like lets bell the cat- an option that has too much risk.
*Fogging is psy-ops technique of saying the same thing regardless of the situation hoping someone will buy it.
( orr Nahi Bass Orr Nahi , Jinnah Ke lallu Orr Nahi, Koi jagah Nahi BAKI, Itna Jhooth na bol Paki)
He may have been the father of Pakistan but he seemed to have remained an Indian national until the end, true to his famous words: “I am an Indian first second and last.” On July 30, 1947, he met a delegation of Muslim League members of the Indian Constituent Assembly and reportedly told them that he was going to Pakistan as a servant and not as a citizen, just as Mountbatten was not Indian but was still the Governor-General of India. This was the correct legal position. He also indicated to the Indian High Commissioner Sri Prikasa that he intended to go back to India after retiring in a few months, who conveyed the information to the Prime Minister of India. Jinnah, unlike the nation he founded, was not xenophobic. Nor was he an irreconcilable fanatic that our official state mythology wants to portray him as. He stood for Indian independence but not necessarily a severance of ties with Great Britain. His idea of independence was of the empowerment of the people through education, civil rights and responsible parliamentary government. He wanted India to emerge as an equal partner in a great British Commonwealth. Similarly, Jinnah wanted to create Pakistan as a vehicle of Muslim empowerment and worldly progress but his Pakistan was to be either a part of the confederation of a great Indian whole or a state with sovereign treaty relations with India. He did not imagine in the least the rigid separation and official enemy status for India that is common today.
Q: Does it help to extend a hand of friendship to Pakistan, as you've been doing for so many years when that hand is repeatedly bitten?
I don't know. I am not qualified to comment on political relations because I don't go there as a politician. I say, what has happened is unwarranted and condemnable. But I am pretty sure that the soldiers from Pakistan acted on their own without taking the permission of their high command. It could be a completely localized dispute. Also, how much of what we're hearing and reading is the real truth? We really don't know When I was in Pakistan what I read in the international press about the Indo-Pak tensions was completely different from what I read at home. But I am sickened by what I read and see on television.
Q: Do you think there is an asha of aman (hope for peace) between the two countries?{The irony is that this question is put by ToI !}
No matter what happens, the dialogue for the peace process must continue. Compared with earlier times the civilians in Pakistan are very pro-India today. I was there in Lahore when India won and Pakistan lost the cricket match. There was no hungama after that. Over here everyone in politics is trying to show his loyalty to 'The King' by shouting the loudest against Pakistan. However, that doesn't mean I condone incidents such as the one that happened at the border this week. What I am saying is that progressive-thinking people on both sides want peace. Those who believe in peaceful co-existence would never want such incidents to happen. I repeat, the dialogue between the two countries must continue uninterrupted.
Q: Why don't they send you to Pakistan as India's high commissioner?
That is up to the government of India to decide. I'd be most happy to go. So what if I am not in the ruling party? When it comes to the safety of the country we are all one. No one wants war with Pakistan. War is never a solution. It's always a problem. In Pakistan, I am already known as a cultural ambassador. Again next month, I am going back to attend their Jashne-e-Bahara celebrations for the spring season. I will go and do more constructive talks. Some of my colleagues believe in destructive talks. I don't. Let's talk with hosh, not josh.
Does Shatrughan Sinha belong to any political party ? Is he from INC ?
Shatrughan just reflects the fact, that the Bollywood is largely controlled by Pakistani terrorists. He is just singing for his (and his family's) supper - no Indian in his right mind will claim " I am pretty sure that the soldiers from Pakistan acted on their own without taking the permission of their high command".
In one sense MMS gains big time as yet another barbaric assualt by TSP becomes barely a foot note in history. And that is, 26/11 will be forgotten as a result of this latest perfidy. He can now continue his bhai chara with his terrorist pals and "LoC is silent" will be his alibi.
Last edited by CRamS on 14 Jan 2013 07:40, edited 1 time in total.
Shiv Aroor @ShivAroor
Pakistan Army has a post called 'Kundi' on the LoC. You are allowed to laugh, my Tamil friends.
Shiv Aroor @ShivAroor
Correction: Kannadiga and Malayalee friends are also expected to laugh at last tweet.
Shiv Aroor @ShivAroor
Also, leaves of jawans/officers have not been cancelled by Indian Army at LoC positions & fwd formations. Incorrect report by some quarters.
CRamS wrote:Frankly guys, I am having a tough time understanding what game is being played. But make no mistake, TSP has again won this round, at least as of today.
As I said way back on the sequence of events, TSP tried its usual hara kiri on the LOC, but this time Indian army was aggressive, they kicked some Paki butt. Maybe they even crossed the LoC. Nothing wrong with that in dealing with TSP perfidy. In response, TSP scored a massive hit and humiliated India. My quetion though is why did Indian army not anticipate this reaction from TSP? Assuming they were caught unawares, and this happend, why did Indian army not retaliate quietly? It seems to me that hiding behind political leadership's WKKism is a convenient excuse for inaction. Who leaked this gory beheading act to the media? What did the army hope to achieve by leaking this to DDM? Everbody knows that short of physical action, everything on the diplomatic front is either equal equal or disadvantage India given TSP's 3.5 friends. What was the purpose in crying through the media? India achieved nothing except looking like a bunch of whining eunuchs. In contrast, as MJA pointed out, TSP hit hard and also grabbed the diplomatic advantage. The whole thing stinks and many things don't add up.
I would't say that the Paki won. Let's be objective about it. The Indian troop drew the first blood, and then the Paki retaliated to kill 2. The Indian troop responded to that by killing 1 more Paki. It seems to me that Indian troops hammered them twice, one before and one after the incidence.
However the Karmik retribution was swift, next day 125+ Paki halaled, you see what goes around comes around! If you consider the whole week, Pakistan was the big loser.
Last edited by Dipanker on 14 Jan 2013 09:04, edited 1 time in total.
CRamS wrote:In one sense MMS gains big time as yet another barbaric assualt by TSP becomes barely a foot note in history. And that is, 26/11 will be forgotten as a result of this latest perfidy. He can now continue his bhai chara with his terrorist pals and "LoC is silent" will be his alibi.
In reality he is the loser in the whole saga, once again the Paki have made him look bad. IN any case he is a lame duck PM.
FIM is highly infectious and contagious disease. As soos as Kongis , WKK and MSM show symptoms of it BaJaaPa shows virulently affected by it. This is being noticed since last 8 years and that is one of the main reason that they got bowled over by Onion prices and yet Kongis continue despite everything going against them including FIM.
They need more potent vaccine like NaMo Ver4.0 to be administered on all India basis to eradicate FIM. Gujjuland should sacrifice in National interest. As long as FIM is prevalent in rest of India NaMo vaccine should be delivered every five years.
However the Karmik retribution was swift, next day 125+ Paki halaled, you see what goes around comes around! If you consider the whole week, Pakistan was the big loser.
Forget invoking karma unless it destroys Rawalpindi.
svenkat, it is used in utter contempt, ridicule and derision and I always italicize it to convey the meaning. The 'Professor' prefix stands in stark contrast to his actions that I then describe. That should bring out the depravity of Pakistan in which professors indulge in such things. I am no Sushilkumar Shinde !
Gen Bikram Singh's press conference as reported by ANI
@ANI_news I don't expect my commanders to be timid, their response is retaliation after provocation: Bikram Singh, Army Chief
@ANI_news The sequence of events as we have seen by Pakistan is clearly pre-meditated-Bikram Singh,Army Chief
@ANI_news Gen Bikram Singh: The allegation by Pakistan that we did something on 6th was preplanned. Their demarche on 7th, media campaign was planned
@ANI_news Gen Bikram Singh: Pakistan was only looking at means to legitimize their action. It was a total lie.
@ANI_news The entire misinformation campaign launched by Pakistan is based on lies-Bikram Singh,Army Chief
@ANI_news Gen Bikram Singh: Our soldiers have done a great job on the LoC and the army stands by them
These incidents have happened before but the news came out after weeks.
This time the UPA was reeling (Owaisi, Delhi Rape) and there could be no better distraction than a TSP perfidy. Hence the news was leaked.
This news conference by Gen Singh is of course meant for public and internal consumption. While I do not expect heavy overt, test-thumping action, I am sure that the men on the LOC will take care of things.
The fact of the matter is no one in Delhi cares about what happens at the LOC as long as the TSPA tanks dont crossover. That also means a free reign for the IA to do what it needs to do.
So take a chill pill and acknowledge how much better the UPA is in managing the media.
In fact looking closely at their behavior, it seems that UPA has or had external advisers who help it manage the media strategy. There is too much Khaanish signs in the way the UPA manages its core constituency.
While the political leadership and the military got a lot of flak — the former for being weak-kneed and the latter for its strategic policy of using terrorists as assets — the judiciary also came in for considerable criticism.
Referring to various issues on which the Supreme Court has taken suo motu notice including a recent shooting down of a young lad in Karachi and the discovery of two bottles of alcohol in an actress’ baggage, people have begun asking why similar note is not being taken of the targeted attacks on Hazara Shias that is now being described as genocide.
I am surprised that the hazara Shia's are still looking for some justice in TSP. What can the political leaders, the TSPA or the Supreme Court do against the Taliban ?
Anujan wrote:Gen Bikram Singh's press conference as reported by ANI
@ANI_news The sequence of events as we have seen by Pakistan is clearly pre-meditated-Bikram Singh,Army Chief
Looks like I was wrong. I assumed it was a chain of reactions.
Last edited by abhijitm on 14 Jan 2013 12:55, edited 1 time in total.
suryag wrote:These statements from Gen.Bikram Singh are for public consumption and would not translate to orders down the chain - i hope and pay am wrong
Chief talking too much. Orders are not given during Press conference nor they are revealed. He is giving media some story to talk about. Why before Flag meet?Perhaps forced to talk after Air Chief statement in media.
"What they (Pakistan) have done is against the ethics of soldiering. My heart goes out to the families of soldiers who were killed and whose bodies were mutilated. It's a gruesome and unpardonable act. Beheading of soldiers is not acceptable,"
"We will uphold the ceasefire as long as it is maintained. We reserve the right to retaliate at the time and place of our choosing," Singh said.
Appreciating the Indian soldiers, Singh said: "Commanders on LoC are doing a great job. I expect my commanders on the LoC to be aggressive. They must understand that the Army hierarchy is behind them."
F**k the ruling political class and families. Go & beat the hell out of TSPA.
>> We reserve the right to retaliate at the time and place of our choosing," Singh said.
On Aaj Tak TV, former Army chief Gen Shankar Roy Chowdhary said that Army is not allowed by govt to issue such statements. The fact that he said so means that he got the green signal from the GoI.
--
I guess we should wait for Shri Khurshid's statements.
suryag wrote:These statements from Gen.Bikram Singh are for public consumption and would not translate to orders down the chain - i hope and pay am wrong
Chief talking too much. Orders are not given during Press conference nor they are revealed. He is giving media some story to talk about. Why before Flag meet?Perhaps forced to talk after Air Chief statement in media.
Dipanker wrote:However the Karmik retribution was swift, next day 125+ Paki halaled, you see what goes around comes around! If you consider the whole week, Pakistan was the big loser.
What is the karmic retribution here? that some pakis in quetta died?
Nothing short of paki army brass is enough for retribution for paki actions affecting India.
It is clear that Indian Army is a professional army of professional soldiers, who do their duty with the highest levels of valour and honor.
Pakistan army on the other hand, is in no way different from a band of terrorists. One difference is that they appear on the employee list somewhere and enjoy pension benefits. Their barbarity in the battle field does not make them any good at fighting though. They havent won a single war of any significance. They routinely surrender to terrorists and get spanked by unkil.
They do seem to be good at conducting coups, running conflake factories and hiding Osama Bin Laden. Well, they werent all that great in hiding Osama, but for a few years, they did do a good job. Like any rabid dog, which gets cowed down after a few beatings, and wags its tail after a few scraps of meat, they grovel in front of the US while salivating for arms and ammo. "Defending every inch of territory" seems to apply only on the front-side facing India. In their back-side it seems to be a free for all, with taliban, drones, NATO helicopters, US Special forces incursion and all.
Unfortunately, they happen to be our neighbours. We should take this moment to recognize how our brave Jawans keep us safe from this rabid horde, while adhering to the highest standards of soldiering and honor. Yes they have beheaded a few of our soldiers, but our finest with their moral ascendancy intact, have whipped them till they have gone yelping back to the US begging for more arms and prepared to render whatever services the taliban or US demand.
We should take this moment to marvel how 65 years has produced such a chasm between two armies born of the same institution: The Idea of India is still strong.
