Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 14 Jan 2013 00:14

vivek_ahuja wrote:WEST OF BEIJING
CHINA
DAY 12 + 0800 HRS

The surprise element was complete.
But then again, it was meant to. The RISAT-1 satellite had confirmed that the politburo and the members of the CMC were only beginning to arrive at the helipads near the underground complex used as the national command center for the CMC in China. The satellite had shown Mi-17s parked on the ground as well as other Z-8s and Z-9s arriving from Beijing.

The window was short, but usable…

The massive two-thousand kilogram unitary warhead of the Agni-III dived past the stunned ground radar crews around Beijing and exploded above the helipads. It caught several of the helicopters on the ground and others in the air as the pressure wave smashed the helicopters aside as well as the parked military vehicles waiting to take the members into the underground center. A massive shockwave expanded in a circle and flattened all of the trees in the forests near the helipads while a smoke filled mushroom cloud rose into the air…

So war has finally reached home.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 14 Jan 2013 00:30

chaanakya wrote:

Born in Shandong’s Jining County in February 1957, Liu has roots in the Second Artillery’s ICBM community. He was assigned to 55 Base’s 803 Brigade in Jingzhou as a junior officer, and remained in the unit for more than a decade (see Chart I below). Liu was a junior member of the DF-5 operational test and evaluation unit within the brigade, and participated in test launches in the early 1980s. [3] Liu served as 803 Brigade Commander from 1997, and was subsequently assigned as director of the 55 Base Equipment Department in 2004. In this position, he oversaw the integration of the DH-10 land attack cruise missile (LACM) and new ICBM variants into the base’s missile inventory. He transferred to the Second Artillery’s Communications Department in July 2007, where he managed the force’s nuclear command, control, and communication system. He returned to Huaihua in early or mid-2010 to serve as 55 Base chief of staff until his promotion to commander.
Well looks like Vivek has done extensive research on profiling his characters on Real ones.

And I see that you have discovered Liu's face!

Kudos on doing some real detective work on the characters in my scenario/novel.

But to answer your question, I did try to create composites of characters based on the types that have served in the role in the past and present and also what their backgrounds are so that understanding their motivations is made easier.

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 14 Jan 2013 00:33

DAY 12 + 0830 HRS
BRITISH JOURNALIST//BBC//IAN SHARP // OPEN CHANNEL PHONE INTERCEPT // THIMPU
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT //

“…something has happened! … Yes! We saw two flashes! … I haven’t seen anything like it. One was definitely over Paru valley. The other one was to the north somewhere! We have heard from some of the Indian soldiers here that all communication with Paru has been lost. … Thimpu? Utter confusion here. No idea if I will be able to call you guys back later or not. In any… Hello? Can you hear me? Ah, okay. Yes, two definite nuclear detonations over Bhutan. That’s all I can confirm for now! I … You there? Okay, yeah: the King is still here last time we checked. God knows what’s happening now. Look, I have to go. Will try and call later. Tell my…”

// CONTACT WITH HOST SIGNAL LOST//RECONSTRUCTION TERMINATED
// END TRANSCRIPT

WEST OF BEIJING
CHINA
DAY 12 + 0900 HRS

The view went from black to blurry as Colonel Dianrong regained consciousness. He instantly found himself coughing for air and laying sideways. The cables and harness attached to the helicopter were dangling down from above as dust driven by the wind roiled through. He tried to push himself away from his seat but realized that he was still strapped in. He realized he had an immense headache and he felt blood dripping over his eyelids. A check with his hand showed he was bleeding from some gash above his eyes. His hands were covered in dust and he saw broken branches and leaves strewn about inside the cabin of the helicopter.

As his vision cleared, he saw the smashed cockpit glass up front and the two pilots, still strapped in their seats with blood splattered over the instruments and the glass. They weren’t moving at all. As his sense of smell started coming back, he thought he smelled cordite. He coughed some more as he started hearing the distant yelling of orders that kept increasing in magnitude…

Then he heard the boots trampling through the broken branches and the frantic yelling of orders from a young voice as soldiers ran over and started checking the inside of the cabin. Two of them saw Dianrong laying inside, still strapped to his seat as the fuselage of the Z-9 rested on its side. They banged on the glass and then ripped it open and lay it aside before clambering inside and opening Dianrong’s seat harness.

“Sir, are you okay?” the young PLA Lieutenant asked. Dianrong coughed heavily but nodded as the soldiers grabbed him by the shoulders and began handing him to other soldiers outside the cabin. They pushed Dianrong out and then two of the soldiers helped him walk out of the small ditch inside the forest half a kilometer from the helipads.

Dianrong saw the dozen Z-9 and Mi-17s flying overhead now, their whipping noises parting the still lingering cloud of dust that was giving the morning sun a dull-red haze. The air was filled with noises of the helicopters hovering above and the hundreds of soldiers running about trying to check for survivors. The two soldiers helping Dianrong brought him to close to an opening where he saw PLA soldiers and a camouflage-painted Z-9 helicopter parked on the grass. He also saw a PLA Major standing there, organizing the search-and-rescue effort. The Major saw Dianrong and saluted.

“Where’s General Liu?” Dianrong managed to speak as the soldiers lowered him on to the grass and medical personnel ran over to check his injuries out. The Major was too busy giving orders and didn’t hear him over the noise.

“Where is he?” Dianrong said again louder and grabbed the Major by his arm to make him look.
“Who, sir?” the Major asked.
“General Liu.”

The Major was silent for several seconds and then shook his head. The medical officer began cleaning his forehead wound with cotton-padding as Dianrong grasped the news. He turned to the Major again.

“And comrade chairman? The politburo?” he asked worriedly.

“We haven’t found comrade chairman’s helicopter yet,” the Major said soberly. “We are looking for them now based on the general direction. It took us this long just to find you and General Liu out here! Some of the politburo are alive, but in critical condition. Some of the deputy ministers were too far away when the strike took place.”
“How did they know? What happened?” Dianrong said more to himself than the Major.

“Sir?” the Major asked as he bent down. Dianrong shook his head just as the soldiers brought out the bodies of the pilots and General Liu from the crash site. Liu’s body was riddled with wounds from the crash and his uniform coat made dark by the blood. The Major sighed as they laid his body on the grass near the parked helicopter and then turned back to face Dianrong sitting now on the floor of the helicopter’s cabin.

“You were extremely lucky to have made it alive, Colonel.”

Dianrong grunted and then nodded. “This is the kind of luck we can all do without, Major. Keep looking for the chairman’s helicopter. And get me back to the center right now. I need to help figure out just who is in charge of this country before the Indians shower us with nuclear warheads!”

“What?” the Major said in utter surprise. They hadn’t been told yet about the planned DF-21 strikes when the Indian pre-emptive strike had happened. But Dianrong had put two and two together to understand that if the Indians had struck here, they must have surely struck the launch sites as well. There was no way to know for sure if any had made their way to the targets until he got back at the center. He finally turned to face the Major and stared him in the eye.

“Haven’t you heard, Major? This war went nuclear an hour ago.”

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 14 Jan 2013 01:12

JUNWEI KONGJUN
BEIJING
DAY 12 + 0930 HRS

The chaos in the government and military headquarters in the city was high. One of the problems with having such a highly focused decision-making body was that when it was suddenly taken out of the equation, the rest of the structure had no clear area to go. To make matters worse, the military was keeping a close tab on what had just happened to the missile launchers in northern Tibet as well as the sudden and unexpected strike that had crippled the Chinese national authority structure.

The bottom-line was simple. Most of the CMC members were dead. The survivors were in critical condition made worse by their old age. For all intents and purposes they were incapacitated and would probably die despite the efforts of the military doctors there. The Chinese military had lost a lot of the four-star general rank officers within the CMC and that was causing some severe trouble at the moment.

The problem for Colonel-General Wencang was that there were a lot of other Colonel-Generals in the other services who were trying to do what he was doing right now: get an idea of who’s in charge. The only difference between him and the other officers however, was that he had been elevated to CMC member when General Jinping had been dismissed as PLAAF commander more than a week ago. The PLA deputy-commander and the commander, General Yongju, were both missing in the aftermath of the strike. Admiral Huaqing had been executed on orders from Peng for his actions in the Indian Ocean and his successor had not been named till now. That had left the naval forces in a limbo as well. So it wasn’t a surprise to Wencang when he got a call from the National Command Center…

“Wencang here,” he replied as he picked up the phone from one of the operations consoles at his command center.
“This is Colonel Dianrong calling from the N-C-C sir.”

“Colonel, what is going on out there?” Wencang said urgently. “Where are the committee members?”

“Generals Yongju and Liu are confirmed as dead, sir. So are the bulk of the party officials. The PLA deputy commander was killed as well. We still haven’t found the chairman’s helicopter but I have organized a massive search effort for the crash site. We should find them soon enough. The vice-chairman is alive but is in critical condition in the hospital here!”

Wencang ran his hands over his head in frustration as he heard the news.
“So why are you calling me, Colonel? Don’t you have your bosses in Qinghe to report to?” he said pointedly and laced with fatalism. He knew how the deputy-commander for the 2ND Artillery would respond to the attack when he would be told that Liu was dead.
“Sir, you are still the commander-designate of the air-force and are still officially on the committee. That puts you above the other deputy-commanders, including the 2ND Artillery Corps,” Dianrong replied.

“Does it now?” Wencang said as he realized the full importance of what that meant.
“Yes sir! And time is very critical. The Indians are bound to retaliate once the explosions in Bhutan reach the media!” Dianrong sounded worried, Wencang thought. But he remained calm.
“Colonel, the Indians aren’t the only ones we should be worried about,” he said in response. “Do you understand the full importance of what has happened? We have struck Bhutan with nuclear weapons! How do you think the world will respond to this when the news heads out?”

There was silence on the other side so Wencang let out a long breath and continued:
“Your former commander and the party have let the proverbial cat out of the bag, Colonel. We will be lucky if China survives as a nation, let alone this war in Tibet. Anyway, I want you to spread the word around that I am in charge from now till the time hostilities are at an end in Tibet. I want no more talk of ‘who’s in charge?’ and all military decisions to be passed through my office at the Junwei-Kongjun. Understand?”

“Yes sir. May I also prepare your evacuation from Beijing to the N-C-C?” Dianrong asked calmly.
“No. I am staying here,” Wencang ordered. “The last thing that needs to happen now is for the country to see their only senior Generals running into their bunkers. I will stay in Beijing for now. But keep the center up and running in case we do need it. Anything else?”
“No sir.”

“Good. Get everything set up at your end. I am going to get Lieutenant-General Chen and some others up here to Beijing to help navigate this country out of the mess we seem to have created for ourselves. Out!”

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 14 Jan 2013 01:24

BANGALORE
INDIA
DAY 12 + 1130 HRS

The Indian RISAT-1 satellite passed calmly and silently over the Tibetan plateau on yet another pass. The brown-white terrain below was being mapped by its synthetic-aperture-radar as it went over Bhutan along the northeast-southwest axis. It saw the pair of dust and smoke filled clouds dissipating away in the direction of the winds over eastern Bhutan. The Paru valley was covered with smoke and it was moving east from there, cutting off the only road access to Thimpu from the south. The explosion over Barshong was doing something similar and had extended the dust east along the valley, away from the Chomolhari peak and the Chumbi valley but all along the valley leading up to Dotanang and beyond.

The satellite had also picked up the dozens of large smoke clouds west of Golmud that had almost died down now, allowing for effective battle-damage-assessment of the three DF-21 missile brigades hit by Indian ballistic-missiles. The imagery was being processed and investigated at the Aerospace Command along with DIPAC officers.

But as the radar imagery continued to roll on the wall screens at the center, Air-Vice-Marshal Malhotra put his hands behind his head and sighed with disbelief. But to the men here at the Aerospace Command, this war was restricted to silent videos on the wall screen seen from low-earth-orbit. It allowed them to distance themselves a bit from what they knew must be the sure and utter chaos on the ground…

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 14 Jan 2013 02:11

NEW-DELHI
DAY 12 + 1230 HRS

“You want to strike them inside Tibet?” Chakri asked as Iyer finished outlining his counter-force strike.
“Wait a minute here!” Ravoof replied as he got what Chakri as alluding to.

“There is no other choice!” Iyer replied. “You want to stop the 15TH Corps dead in its tracks, then you have to hit them where they are! And they are in Tibet right now; just south of Gyantse, as a matter of fact.”
“We can’t do that!” the PM dismissed that assessment. “We will end up killing Tibetan civilians and end up undoing everything that existed between us and Tibet! They will not forgive this crime for generations!”

“If Beijing allows that many generations to survive,” Chakri added quietly.

“That is not the point!” the NSA retorted. “If you want to strike them, do it over Chinese soil! The 15TH Corps can be handled by conventional means. We have enough forces in the valley now as the two enemy Divisions there have collapsed.”

“I don’t want to use our nuclear weapons at all, if we can manage it!” the PM said. It got him a frown from all of the others in the conversation except Ravoof.
“We have already been struck!” Chakri said forcefully. “Bhutan is our responsibility and our paratroopers died there in the thousands. General Potgam just lost two whole Para battalions along with hundreds of regular army and air-force personnel. Our men! Tens of thousands of Bhutanese civilians are dead! And had we not detected those launchers in time we would not even be alive right now! Beijing deserves everything we can throw at them at this point!”

“And then they will respond to our strikes with strikes of their own,” Ravoof replied. “And then we will do it again to them and the cycle goes on! Where does it stop? When both India and China have lost all of their major cities and millions of their citizens? There has to be another way. Striking military targets inside China with nuclear weapons is one thing. But become too successful at it and they will respond against our cities. How many of our major airbases are disjointed from adjoining cities? They strike at those in response to our strikes and you see where this will go?”

“We cannot afford to not respond to the Chinese attack!” Chakri shouted.

“No,” the PM replied. “What we can’t afford is to throw the conventional victory in Tibet away for our lust for Chinese blood. The whole reason they attacked with the nuclear option was to force us to do the same and help them dilute the sharp nature of their defeat in Tibet. That is why they didn’t go after our cities. That is why there were no more launches from them in the last few hours. It was a lure to drag us into a fight neither side can win and away from a fight we did win! But we need to look past the trap here and see what we have accomplished. Now that their launchers in Tibet are destroyed and their forces in the Chumbi valley and Bhutan defeated, we have the upper hand. Especially after we hit their command center just as their senior leaders were arriving. That constitutes an advantage I am willing to use!”

“Do we even know who’s in charge over in Beijing right now?” Ravoof asked.

“Hard to say,” the NSA added, “but probably somebody from the military. We will know more soon enough. In the meantime, let’s keep an eye on their DF-31s. Movement on those units will mean a follow up strike is in play, and that will be the point at which we will launch our counter-response. In the meantime, conventional offensives into Tibet will continue.”

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 14 Jan 2013 02:31

For once, I agree with the PM, inspite of being peace-mongerer that he is.
There is no point in civilization being annihilated.

At this point of time, other nations will(hopefully) reign back China.
Nobody except the Khan gets to carry out a nuclear attack impudently

Our price of not hitting back with nuclear weapons should be Aksai-Chin + Tibet + War-reparations.

--Ashish

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 14 Jan 2013 02:34

Vivek saar..

Awesome writing!!

And your scenarios have brought back my nail-biting habits ..

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 14 Jan 2013 03:23

vivek_ahuja wrote:NEW-DELHI
DAY 12 + 1230 HRS

“You want to strike them inside Tibet?” Chakri asked as Iyer finished outlining his counter-force strike.
“Wait a minute here!” Ravoof replied as he got what Chakri as alluding to.

“There is no other choice!” Iyer replied. “You want to stop the 15TH Corps dead in its tracks, then you have to hit them where they are! And they are in Tibet right now; just south of Gyantse, as a matter of fact.”
“We can’t do that!” the PM dismissed that assessment. “We will end up killing Tibetan civilians and end up undoing everything that existed between us and Tibet! They will not forgive this crime for generations!”

“If Beijing allows that many generations to survive,” Chakri added quietly.

“That is not the point!” the NSA retorted. “If you want to strike them, do it over Chinese soil! The 15TH Corps can be handled by conventional means. We have enough forces in the valley now as the two enemy Divisions there have collapsed.”

“I don’t want to use our nuclear weapons at all, if we can manage it!” the PM said. It got him a frown from all of the others in the conversation except Ravoof.
“We have already been struck!” Chakri said forcefully. “Bhutan is our responsibility and our paratroopers died there in the thousands. General Potgam just lost two whole Para battalions along with hundreds of regular army and air-force personnel. Our men! Tens of thousands of Bhutanese civilians are dead! And had we not detected those launchers in time we would not even be alive right now! Beijing deserves everything we can throw at them at this point!”
....

“And then they will respond to our strikes with strikes of their own,” Ravoof replied. “And then we will do it again to them and the cycle goes on! Where does it stop? When both India and China have lost all of their major cities and millions of their citizens? There has to be another way. Striking military targets inside China with nuclear weapons is one thing. But become too successful at it and they will respond against our cities. How many of our major airbases are disjointed from adjoining cities? They strike at those in response to our strikes and you see where this will go?”

Hmm, do I detect a faint WKK odour here? Throughout our history we've suffered from an excess of timidity and (I love that term) dhoti shivering, and Vivek has brough that out brilliantly here. Great writing, Ahuja Sahib. Eagerly awaiting your book...

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 14 Jan 2013 03:42

Misraji wrote:For once, I agree with the PM, inspite of being peace-mongerer that he is.
There is no point in civilization being annihilated.

At this point of time, other nations will(hopefully) reign back China.
Nobody except the Khan gets to carry out a nuclear attack impudently

Our price of not hitting back with nuclear weapons should be Aksai-Chin + Tibet + War-reparations.

--Ashish

Not saying you're wrong here Misraji, but this will once more show the world that we're willing to take all of the cr@p thrown at us without the other side's fearing instant retaliation. That after all is the point of having nukes. I submit that not retaliating in kind will cost us whatever respect we've earned till the (fictional) now.

In the Cold War era, the US would have responded instantly to any Soviet first use, although the aftermath would have been too terrible to contemplate. They would not have been held back by fear of what the Soviet response would be, or of the potential fallout (pun not intended) of escalation. In my opinion the Chinese have thrown down the gauntlet, and not responding will show the world we are the most accomplished practitioners of of GUBO that ever existed.

The one limited option we could contemplate would be to launch a limited strike at the Tibetan DF-31 installations with a couple of nukes, thus showing the world that we have no interest in escalation but have done this to draw the Chinese fangs that directly threaten us. It will also send the message that the weapons are ready and we would not hesitate to use them at need. Or we could maybe conduct a limited retaliatory strike in the style of the movie By Dawn's Early Light, where the Soviets mistakenly launch a few nukes at the USA. The Soviet Chairman then sends a message to the US President indicating that they would be ready to accept a limited US response similar in scale to the Soviet attack, but no more.

Just my 2p....

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Jan 2013 04:12

Misraji wrote:For once, I agree with the PM, inspite of being peace-mongerer that he is.
There is no point in civilization being annihilated.

At this point of time, other nations will(hopefully) reign back China.
Nobody except the Khan gets to carry out a nuclear attack impudently

Our price of not hitting back with nuclear weapons should be Aksai-Chin + Tibet + War-reparations.

--Ashish

No personal offence intended, but havent you been pushing the same line throughout the discussion? Unfortunately, that over rational, ever eager to compromise attribute, civilizational/religious/india related attribute, is what is termed as a lack of a killer instinct, and hence results in India ever shirking the hard choices, only to be faced with a hard choice many years thence (which it again misses on addressing). This is the same thought process that ensured 93,000 genocidal mass murderers got a get home free card after rapine in Bangladesh in 1971, the same process that had us return Haji Pir to the Pakistanis after 1965 (only to have it used for terrorism ingress in decades thence). The current PM, has taken it to the next level (of course, he is a different breed of humanity, absolutely shameless and willing to negotiate with terrorists for sake of personal glory) and is always ever ready to compromise on Indian interests.

War is not a time for half measures. The Chinese attacked India with nukes, that too in a country (the only one) whose safety was our responsibility, and here you are, eager to go down the "oh what will happen to us" angle.

Please remember - nations dont become great by setting examples for other nations, but by making examples of other nations.

Why will Nepal or Bangladesh or Sri Lanka ever regard India as a benefactor, if India cannot protect even Bhutan? Your post further hopes for the US somehow saving India, as if its ever played that sort of role. Even in 1962, it was this very attitude that landed us in hot water. Nehru acted tough against China thinking the US would save India, it didn't.

Net - the Chinese should pay for their nuke strikes. Only when they know they face a wounded tiger willing to claw their so called middle kingdom into the depths of chaos and is willing to go all the way to the ropes, will they also meet us halfway.

Otherwise, it will be more of this - India taking hit after hit, and appearing "reasonable". For whom exactly? What civilization is it if it cannot even protect countries like Bhutan who have been dependent on India all throughout, and to whom we owe a debt of honor and what of those thousands of Paras?

Remember, any strike with nuclear weapons on Indian forces is a strike on India itself.
If you keep drawing imaginary redlines with the advantage going to the aggressor, you will lose the war.

Think of what happens after the war as well. The whole world will know India took nuclear strikes and did not retaliate. The successful strikes on Chinese targets count for zilch. The Indian armed forces are amongst the worst in terms of media management, and less said about GOI the better.

The end result - world thinks the Chinese slapped India, and Indians being the cowardly species they are, slunk away, with tails firmly tucked between their legs. What this results in - every tom, dick and harry, thinking that they can now use similar tactics against India, and keep being aggressive.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 14 Jan 2013 04:36

That yellow reds have nuked our armed forces is enough to activate the "retaliate with unacceptable damage to the adversary" declared policy of Bharatvarsh. If we don't then deterrence policy will be seen as joke. Our nuclear warheads will be considered duds.

The thing is we have to let them all fly , not just on chinese but more importantly towards Suaristan/Porkistan too.

I have tried myself to write Bharat fighting two front wars scenario , but due to lack of knowledge they have ended up as pathetic/unpresentable.

But one thing I had in mind to write was:

We nuke Porkis with 315 warheads obliterating them, while only 30 against chinese, but these 30 are called "Dirty Thirty" in scenario as they are 'salted' ones with 'Gold Isotope 197' and 'Cobalt 60' to render that part of chinese land unlivable for ten thousand years. Then message is sent to chinese are you ready to take more? And this brings them to negotiating table as those 'Dirty Thirty' have landed on their densest industrial areas which are near to ports and around their 10 refineries.

People will call me mad but I also had Bangladesh bombed with 90 nukes , for two reasons:

1.) Like Iran kept Iraq air-force's fighters under their protection from US + allies attack. I'm sure Bangladesh will be keeping some for Porki's second strike. As a chanakian move since no one will suspect they'll do such a thing , everyone will think arabs to do that.

2.) Wounded in nuclear war , Rashtra will be vulnerable to bangladeshi mischiefs.

SO IF ONE FLIES (no matter from which side ours or theirs) , THEY ALL FLY !!!

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 14 Jan 2013 04:42

^^^ Apocalypse now!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Jan 2013 04:53

Excellent write up Vivekji!

Looks like the scenario is going as expected.

PM of India is being the pu$$y no.1 that he is bow. He is hoping that CCP, whatever left of it, will allow
- Tibet to go independent
- Its defeat in Indian hands go unavenged for all future
- world community will pressure China to do what? Forego nuclear weapons? And allow Tibet to join India?
- can Tibet remain neutral country and be self-sustained given its place and geography? If Bhutan became what it became in this scenario, what can an independent Tibet do when next scenarios realizes in twenty years?

What an idiot

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Jan 2013 05:03

Misraji wrote:For once, I agree with the PM, inspite of being peace-mongerer that he is.
There is no point in civilization being annihilated.

At this point of time, other nations will(hopefully) reign back China.
Nobody except the Khan gets to carry out a nuclear attack impudently

Our price of not hitting back with nuclear weapons should be Aksai-Chin + Tibet + War-reparations.

--Ashish

We, all Bharatiyas, should come out of this larger than ourselves image and silly peace mongering Misraji.

The "other nations" sat quite when china attacked Thimpu the first time. What makes then do anything differently now? What makes the CPC act any differently given the fact that they already crossed the nuclear threshold, and not sure of Indian action?please note that India cannot give them a guarantee of nuclear immunity until all negotiations are done. Also note that Liu is just the face of CPC's nuke attack, he was not reigned in or fired by other CPC members. What is the guarantee that they will not be any more Luis in CPC/CMC?

How did you come to the conclusion that only khan can go nuclear without impunity?

Who is going to give india all the concessions you presented there? The CMC? Will it be in a situation to do that and survive to lead China? What if the next leadership of china disagrees with CMC decision in near future? Don't forget that china will remain nuclear power even after this scenario and Chinese are pakis of Hun variety.

The PM and Ravoof in the scenario should be court marshaled for they are failing the nuclear doctrine of the country ineffective and not allowing Indian army to avenge deaths of thousands of Indian deaths even when they are an effective force.

Coming to civilizational nonsense -

In civilizational time scales every one will be strong, even a nuke attacked India too. If India doesn't respond in kind now, Pakistan will take cue from Chinese defeat. All it will lose is PoK (because the dhimmi Indian leaders do not cross civilizational lines) for taking out a couple of Indian cities in nuke attackes..

How silly this civilization became. Such a civilization doesn't deserve to be a nuclear power.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Jan 2013 05:06

If my gut feel is correct the western powers will encourage china to go all out nuke war, as it would end the challenge of Asia for good.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 14 Jan 2013 05:20

Karan M, I respectfully disagree.

Launching a decapitation strike against the Chinese Communist Party is not the act of a cowardly government. Look, if there's an all-out nuclear exchange between India and China, neither India nor China wins. (The winners will be opportunistic third parties who will try to take advantage of the mutual annihilation.) The major cities of both countries will be reduced to radioactive ash. If China is seen to be preparing another nuclear strike against India, then India should (pre-emptively) launch a massive nuclear strike against China. Will most Indian cities be destroyed in return? Yes, but they would have been destroyed anyway. There is no escaping that decision at that time.

However, if there is a reasonable possibility that the Chinese will decide against that, India should be very careful about the actions that it takes. I am not one of these "Aman ki Asha" believers. I agree with you that the return of the Haji Pir Pass was a disaster. India should be concerned about results: sometimes, that entails ruthlessness; sometimes, that entails restraint. It depends on the situation.

As a general comment, I do not believe that China's development is ahead of India's ... Within 20 years, after the Chinese government and economic model is in chaos, and after India's current generation of political officials has passed away, people around the world will be marveling at India's progress. The Republic of India has made mistakes (mainly due to Nehru), but overall, the leaders of India have made much better decisions than those of Communist China. Let me put it this way: as bad as Nehru was, I don't know of virtually any Indian who would have preferred Mao as India's Prime Minister instead of Nehru.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Jan 2013 05:22

chaanakya wrote:
RamaY wrote: then MMS has testimonials.
You mean testicles??

India having 500 nukes means this...

Let us assume we had 50 nukes in 1998 when we tested p2.

It has been 14 years since then. So we must be making 30 nukes per year since then. That means MMS allowed this program to continue unabated dispite his sharam-el-shakes, nuke deals, 2gs etc., that doesn't make sense because if MMS is even 5% nationalistic and chanikian, many things that happened since 2004 wouldn't have happened.

And whom are we going to nuke with 500 nukes? Do china and Pakistan have that many targets? Or is India going for Mahakala option?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Jan 2013 05:28

Avarachan garu,

1. Please note that the attacks on Bhutan were not isolated strikes. If not for Indian success in destroying the launchers, that wave of attacks would have resulted in more mushroom clouds.

2. What is the guarantee that India will be Able to detect next nuke launch from china? Please note that the UAV cover is limited to Tibet.

3. By accepting a nuke attack on its forces without any response, India threw it's nuclear doctrine in the trash can. When you say something it is better to do it. That is the foundation of any nations strength

4. The Chinese leadership is still there (that is the whole purpose of chain of command) and china will not negotiate with pu$$is once they know that India doesn't have heart.

That comment about Nehru and Mao is very silly, as if the only alternative to Nehru is Mao. This is the same logic UPA2 is using by calling NM, hitler. That is dhimminess, then and there.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 14 Jan 2013 05:35

It isn't peace mongering IMO. At this point in the story, the PLA still has the capability to escalate further and our options are limited. Ending the war on our terms and not letting our major industrial/population centers from turning into wastelands should be the end goal.

Nuclear weapons are meant to deter. Once they get used, deterrence has already failed.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Jan 2013 05:38

Avarachan,

You mean the decapitation strike launched as a deus ex machina after the Chinese begin the war with a decapitation strike against Indian leadership?
The decapitation strike launched by India with the lucky look at the Chinese all gathering together to get into some bunker? How realistic is that?
And all throughout, the reliance on Herons etc to compensate for satellites. For the record, UAVs of the current gen have pathetically limited FOVs - they are called soda bottle straws for that reason. The US is developing Gorgon Stare to overcome that very limitation...

Anyhow, the same PM wants India to use up its limited stocks of BMs on tactical warhead equipped strikes against Chinese BM launchers. In a scenario which can only exist in our positive imagination, we succeed in taking out almost all of them bar two. Both of which luckily hit Bhutan.

You know, in reality - we lost all idea of what was happening when that sat disappeared, and the resolution from a high flying Heron would likely not compensate and a lower flying Heron would be taken out by SAMs.
And in reality, if the PM was even a tenth as craven as that shown in this scenario (which is very likely, given the gent currently leading us who has put his personal desires ahead of the needs of the nation), we are headed for a massive defeat.

A deus ex machina of Indian Agni3 taking out the entire Chinese leadership wont occur.

Next:

As a general comment, I do not believe that China's development is ahead of India's

I am sorry, but it is ahead. And it will remain so, till you get a relatively non corrupt efficient administrator to run India, whether it be Nitish Kumar, Modi or that gent from Goa. If you have the current bunch of corrupt clowns continue, then India will end up underperforming, even as some INC supporters laugh all the way to the bank. China is pulling ahead, and has pulled ahead, there is little doubt. After a period of time, their economies of scale across the industrial spectrum will kick in.

... Within 20 years, after the Chinese government and economic model is in chaos, and after India's current generation of political officials has passed away,

But the current gen of corrupt kleptocrats will ensure that their next gen of fatcats will take over, cheered by a media in cahoots with them, a bureaucracy and administrative cabal that is full of sycophants, and assorted fatcats ( not you but several of whom are on this forum and brag about their "noo-yawk experience" and "ivy league education" or how "INC has a compelling pan national story etc etc) who have parasitically benefited from this kleptocracy will continue to ensure India suffers while they make hay...and we are fed the pallative of how "progressive" our "leaders" are..

people around the world will be marveling at India's progress.

Isnt that a fond hope?

The Republic of India has made mistakes (mainly due to Nehru), but overall, the leaders of India have made much better decisions than those of Communist China. Let me put it this way: as bad as Nehru was, I don't know of virtually any Indian who would have preferred Mao as India's Prime Minister instead of Nehru.

Nehru was the tip of the iceberg. IG was the follow on who subverted the Indian state and made it into a sycophantic corrupt edifice, even as Nehru started the process. Multiple INC leaders across India made sure that corruption went all the way to the grassroots and caste-communal-ethnic divisions were played up to secure votes.
Why this urge to compare with Mao. We all know Mao was scum, but I wonder when we Indians will have the freedom to curse Indian criminals the manner in which they deserve to be cursed, instead of deified.

Fact of the matter is, there is not much difference in the current Indian democracy and the Chinese dictatorship. In both cases, one group of people has seized power and subverted the will of the people, almost completely using a variety of tactics. Only the degree of corruption and vice differs. Should we happy the Chinese suffer 10x more, or wonder as to why we suffer to begin with?

I submit to you, we Indians have become to used to putting up with all sorts of venal leaders couched in terms such as progressive, secular, and youth and what not, when these cretins are anything but...and use these terms to gain and hold onto power along with a corrupt media and establishment ever willing to suppress ordinary Indians but craven when it comes to dealing with China or Pakistan...these fools deserve to be thrown in jail, the same way Mubarak was.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Jan 2013 05:43

What happens when deterrence fails? We take the nuke hits and stay home and remain the most dhimmi civilization in the world for eternity?

By allowing CMC/CPC to regroup and rethink we are giving them the much needed to time to plan the next attack.

It is a old concept that the war ends when the king dies. This is exactly why many Hindu kingdoms fell for Islamic hordes. Often hundreds of thousands strong armies surrendered as soon as the king died, resulting organized slaughtering of Hindus all over Bharat.

India already gave them nearly 4 hours (8:30 AM to 12:30PM) to understand and recuperate from that a3 on near-beijing CMC. Imagine what would have happened if Beijing is taken out.

The world community would have forced china to stop the war. Now they are still waiting for china's next move. That Sun-Tchutiyapanti strategy IMHO.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Jan 2013 05:55

Vivek ji,

A question to you.

The two nuke missiles were launched when the Indian conventional Agnis started taking out the missile brigades. Does it mean they were launched as per pre-existing doctrine (launch the missile when the survival of launchers are threatened) Or done at specific authorization from CMC?

Secondly in the absence of that successful denial attacks by Agnis on nuke launchers, what would have been the targets? How many missiles were planned for launch before India took them out?

Thanks

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 14 Jan 2013 06:20

Karan M wrote:The decapitation strike launched by India with the lucky look at the Chinese all gathering together to get into some bunker? How realistic is that?

Sigh. I love it when people just gloss over the scenario instead of the details.

And all throughout, the reliance on Herons etc to compensate for satellites. For the record, UAVs of the current gen have pathetically limited FOVs - they are called soda bottle straws for that reason. The US is developing Gorgon Stare to overcome that very limitation...

You need to go back and read the posts about the Herons from before. The point being that nobody is using the Herons as compensation for satellites per se. But they are being used to keep individual batteries in check. You don't need to see all batteries to get an idea. Even if a few of them are deploying (as the scenario states that the Herons were keeping checks on single units from each of the three brigades), it is enough to guess what is happening. Same for the Agni strikes. All they saw was the view from one of the drones and restricted as such. SFC had been working on these missile locations and these three brigades for days.

The same way they were doing it for the N-CC west of Beijing. The key element was the fact that the Chinese did not know the Herons were there when they took out the satellite and began preparations, giving the SFC that crucial early warning and element of surprise.

Karan M wrote:Anyhow, the same PM wants India to use up its limited stocks of BMs on tactical warhead equipped strikes against Chinese BM launchers. In a scenario which can only exist in our positive imagination, we succeed in taking out almost all of them bar two. Both of which luckily hit Bhutan.

They did take out most of JFB infrastructure, two battalions of paratroopers and several hundred logistics and support personnel. Plus the Pinaka batteries and the elimination of ground routes to Haa Dzong and Thimpu. Also terminated all hopes of JFB taking part in any future operations in Tibet.

You know, in reality - we lost all idea of what was happening when that sat disappeared, and the resolution from a high flying Heron would likely not compensate and a lower flying Heron would be taken out by SAMs.

No offense intended, but I wonder if you read the scenario in its entirety? I am talking about the whole Bhutan angle? The whole south/central-Tibet SEAD and air-war and so on? Or why the Herons were even sent in and when (i.e. before/after the whole SAM threat/SEAD effort stuff?)?

Glossing over the details in this scenario can really make it look the way you posted. And it makes it bad for me because I am not sure where to start addressing some of the quoted parts above without delving back to the hundreds of scenario posts for why things happened the way they did.

Apologies if you did read it and these were you conclusions. I admit that at the end of the day it is fiction, so anybody is free to trash it whichever way they like.

-Vivek

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 14 Jan 2013 06:29

RamaY wrote:The two nuke missiles were launched when the Indian conventional Agnis started taking out the missile brigades. Does it mean they were launched as per pre-existing doctrine (launch the missile when the survival of launchers are threatened) Or done at specific authorization from CMC?

No, if you check the posts, the missiles were aimed specifically for Paru and Barshong. But these were secondary targets. The point being that because their launchers were being hit in quick successions, once Indian-specific primary launchers were lost, there was no time for these secondary-target missiles to be retasked back to primary targets. They were launched as planned and took out the JFB infrastructure and manpower in Bhutan.

Secondly in the absence of that successful denial attacks by Agnis on nuke launchers, what would have been the targets? How many missiles were planned for launch before India took them out?

The targets would have included Chumbi valley and Ladakh as well as more for eastern Bhutan and Sikkim. Basically the idea being to disable the Indian military ability to move into Tibet from their staging areas once the Divisions in Chumbi collapsed. Overall about thirty targets with another thirty or so missiles aiming for SFC launch sites and missile locations.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Jan 2013 06:32

Got it. Thank you.

I hope that answers the questions/nuances people are talkin about on Indian nuclear doctrine.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 14 Jan 2013 06:52

RamaY, I agree with you, in an ideal world, the choice is not between Nehru and Mao. India would be far ahead of where it is now if Sardar Patel or Chandra Bose had been India's PM instead of Nehru. However, that did not happen. The task of leaders is to work with the resources available, while simultaneously working to develop more resources for the future.

Karan M, your reference to Egypt is curious. As corrupt as Mubarak was, the Muslim Brotherhood will be far, far worse. Shortly, the world will see the implosion of the Egyptian economy. (Already, thousands of Egyptian Orthodox Christians (Copts) have fled for their lives--given that they run much of that country, the decline of Egypt is simply a matter of time.)

Karan M, I agree with you that many INC leaders are crooks. However, there must a credible alternative. This is why I said that the long-term future of India is much brighter than that of China: there *is* a credible alternative emerging. Regardless of what one thinks of the specifics of the Anna Hazare movement, the fact that so many young Indians were actively demanding reform is an enormously hopeful sign. I view "development" differently than most analysts: what matters most is the development of an educated, decent/dharmic, moderate, middle-income, entrepreneurial citizenry. In that, India has succeeded far more than China. But to give an indication of where the Republic of India was starting from, look at the idiotic statements made by many Indian leaders regarding the Delhi gang-rape. In India, there is a huge cultural gap between the old and young, between urbanites and villagers, between different states, between members of different religious communities. The task of Indian leaders should be to manage the transition to a better future, while ensuring social stability.

This, again, is an area where India is ahead of China. India's ruling elites are corrupt. So are China's elites (but much worse). There are two key differences, however: first, in India, there are legal mechanisms by which the elites can be replaced, peacefully. Second, India has a populace that seems up to the challenge of good governance. When the Chinese people decide that they've had enough of the Chinese Communist Party, what are they supposed to do? And then, even if the Chinese people do get rid of the CCP, where will skilled Chinese leaders come from? The record of totalitarian states is that it takes a few generations for the people to get back on their feet and recover from that (social, psychological, spiritual, environmental) trauma.

Anyway, this is off-topic for this thread. Vivek, please continue. Great work!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Jan 2013 06:55

And coming to PM's logic that we won Tibet conventionally, it will be short lived if china uses nukes on Tibet as the last measure to deny Indian victory. What will be India's options then?

Vivekji, kudos to you. Can't wait to read next post.

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 14 Jan 2013 07:18

This Whole "No First Use" Policy is crap, we should nuke their missile launch sites, if we have credible intelligence of imminent nuke strikes.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 14 Jan 2013 07:28

Karan M wrote:Avarachan,

You mean the decapitation strike launched as a deus ex machina after the Chinese begin the war with a decapitation strike against Indian leadership?
The decapitation strike launched by India with the lucky look at the Chinese all gathering together to get into some bunker? How realistic is that?

Well, I wouldn't call it a deus ex machina. We're all very familiar with those, having sat through countless Indian movies whose very existence is predicated on the device. However, consider this:

The Chinese are confident to the point of arrogance and perhaps irrationality.
This is clear from their resorting to a nuclear attack to resolve a border war.
The Indian leadership took to the desi version of Air Force One right after the first attacks; it (to the CMC's mind) shows how little confidence they have in their armed forces.
Hiding in the clouds to escape a nuclear attack from the pathetic SDRE dhoti-shiverers would count as a loss of face - after all, there's nothing those idiots could do that could hurt the Middle Kingdom! It is thus business as usual for the CMC.
Their unwillingness to negotiate an end to the war, and the fury at having a beaten force surrender confirms this.
And so the open movement of helicopters carrying the high and mighty of the Party and the military command, that a smart Indian intel puke saw, and then - veni, vidi, vici, so to speak.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 14 Jan 2013 08:14

Vivek Ji, Excellent writing. I agree undoubetly with PM responding like the way he has. I will term it as calcluated response and risk on his part to still think to respond conventionally.IMHO one must not forget though the war is being fought between two nations you simply cannot isolate it from international influence. Right from operation Desert storm even US have been involving people to maintains the "social" edge. I think point is that still nuclear war has not reached Indian soil.(No disrepect to loss of life with two paratrooper division lost) But one has to look at the possibilty that chinese could have still taken out these divisions with barrage of conventional missiles .
Till no civilian life is lost in a nuclear strike over indian soild. With these two strikes we would have already have fueled our missiles for a nuclear strike. But that should be last resort till all our options are exhausted/hope is lost.

And I have a very "strong" feeling that with war going nuclear it is imperative on part of US/NATO/UN to pound on chinese missile installations to cash #their golden chance(to wipe out already weakended China for once and all militarily). I don't see any reason why US will not intervene

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 14 Jan 2013 08:36

parshuram wrote:And I have a very "strong" feeling that with war going nuclear it is imperative on part of US/NATO/UN to pound on chinese missile installations to cash #their golden chance(to wipe out already weakended China for once and all militarily). I don't see any reason why US will not intervene

Do not be deluded into wishful thinking. It is India's responsibility to ensure Indian security. That is the whole point of sovereignty and independence.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 14 Jan 2013 08:46

Karan M wrote:
No personal offence intended, but havent you been pushing the same line throughout the discussion? Unfortunately, that over rational, ever eager to compromise attribute, civilizational/religious/india related attribute, is what is termed as a lack of a killer instinct, and hence results in India ever shirking the hard choices, only to be faced with a hard choice many years thence (which it again misses on addressing). This is the same thought process that ensured 93,000 genocidal mass murderers got a get home free card after rapine in Bangladesh in 1971, the same process that had us return Haji Pir to the Pakistanis after 1965 (only to have it used for terrorism ingress in decades thence). ...

Absolutely no offense taken.

Its just the case that I have always believed that nuclear weapons are not meant to fight wars.
If we try to go toe-to-toe with either China or Pakistan in fighting a nuclear war, that means setting India back to stone-age.
Hence any chance one has of getting out of that situation, has to be taken.

That said, if you see some of my posts in other threads, I always demand payment.
For eg, of this later Porkistan attack, I do support the army going and killing them in a 10-1 ratio.

Just NOT WITH NUKES. Victory where one is annihilated along with one's enemy is no victory at all.

So. In this scenario, my payment would be Aksai-Chin + Tibet + War-reparations.
I would keep the nuclear knife sharp and deliver a threat.

Either you meet our demands or we are going counter-force.
We won't defeat attack your armies with nukes.
We will go all out and wipe out Shanghai + Beijing + your vital centers.
In the next round, we WILL ESCALATE and you will be at the receiving end.

IMHO, Kargil was a BEAUTIFUL example of how world opinion matters.
One may not like it. But one has to agree that it works. Diplomacy is a weapon if used correctly.
Which we did in Kargil by not crossing the international border.

Was that cowardice? I thought so at that time. But Vajpayee and the Armed forces delivered the results
and enforced the world view that Pakistan was an irresponsible state.

That has roughly been my line of thinking in this scenario.

--Ashish

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 14 Jan 2013 08:54

Hobbes wrote: Not saying you're wrong here Misraji, but this will once more show the world that we're willing to take all of the cr@p thrown at us without the other side's fearing instant retaliation. That after all is the point of having nukes. I submit that not retaliating in kind will cost us whatever respect we've earned till the (fictional) now.

In the Cold War era, the US would have responded instantly to any Soviet first use, although the aftermath would have been too terrible to contemplate. They would not have been held back by fear of what the Soviet response would be, or of the potential fallout (pun not intended) of escalation. In my opinion the Chinese have thrown down the gauntlet, and not responding will show the world we are the most accomplished practitioners of of GUBO that ever existed.

The one limited option we could contemplate would be to launch a limited strike at the Tibetan DF-31 installations with a couple of nukes, thus showing the world that we have no interest in escalation but have done this to draw the Chinese fangs that directly threaten us. It will also send the message that the weapons are ready and we would not hesitate to use them at need. Or we could maybe conduct a limited retaliatory strike in the style of the movie By Dawn's Early Light, where the Soviets mistakenly launch a few nukes at the USA. The Soviet Chairman then sends a message to the US President indicating that they would be ready to accept a limited US response similar in scale to the Soviet attack, but no more.

Just my 2p....

This fear of every thing will be annihilated MUST BE DELIVERED BEFORE THE WAR!!!.
Once this nukes are being used, you must use them rationally.

What the world thinks of me (/ India) is what I show them.
Show them a victory.

Yes we took a nuke in our stride.
No. We are not timid. We could have hit back so that both China+India would be annihilated.
No. We are not stupid either. We will hold back an attack ONLY IF you meet our demands.

Finally. Yes. We dismembered the Big Bad Wolf China so that Tibet is free and we have Aksai Chin back.
When you can show me something similar, then you can call us cowards.
Else shut the eff up!!

AND THAT is how you convince the world that you are NOT timid.

--Ashish

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 14 Jan 2013 09:24

IMO, once the remnant of the CMC consolidates they might perceive a slight upper hand.
1. The Indians suffered huge loss of life and the knife is blunted.
2. The Indians will not want to lose even one of their own cities vs possible higher threshold for China. The free nature of Indian society and media will pose huge problems. Once the news of Chinese first strike spreads there is a good chance for mass panic (as against anger) in the metros and Murthys rushing to save Bangalore ityadi and the GoI's hand may be forced.
3. The PRC's upper hand in ASATs, conventional BMs and CMs remains.
4. The Military Region Command centers and facilities in Taihang Mountains and Tanggla Ranges etc remain secure.
5. US/NATO/Japan/Russia/etc will NOT interfere; since ChiComs are not yet down and out and there are still many Chinese weapons at their interests/territories.

Even at this juncture, why wouldn't they try to take our North Eastern Air Force Bases with massed MRBM strikes and dare us? We will pick up the launches but might wait a minute to ascertain if these are nukes heading towards Delhi/Kolkata/Lucknow/Mumbai/etc, no? The war can be escalated with conventional means..... if they can't win the air war over Tibet or cannot field a fresh invasion force they will use their missiles to the fullest.

gkriish · Post by **gkriish** » 14 Jan 2013 09:31

If i may join this discussion first Vivek wonderful story telling second i find that after nuking Beijing the commander was able to communicate to Cheng (correct me if i am wrong) however once you explode a nuke EMP will knock out all the electronics device and how can people from Beijing able to communicate

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 14 Jan 2013 09:33

gkriish wrote:If i may join this discussion first Vivek wonderful story telling second i find that after nuking Beijing the commander was able to communicate to Cheng (correct me if i am wrong) however once you explode a nuke EMP will knock out all the electronics device and how can people from Beijing able to communicate

That was a conventional warhead over the N-CC, west of Beijing. So no EMP there...

nash · Post by **nash** » 14 Jan 2013 09:48

As per scenario, if PM say he want conventional victory in tibet, then so be it. He didn't say that SFC can't strike in china on their other II artillery base, which i think on the obesrvation of SFC.

Nuke out their II artillery base and take out their military bases, what ever left in Tibet and Aksai chin, conventionally. Initiate the Tibet revolt again.

Not much time left and time is most important asset here in this scenario.

gkriish · Post by **gkriish** » 14 Jan 2013 09:55

vivek_ahuja wrote:
gkriish wrote:If i may join this discussion first Vivek wonderful story telling second i find that after nuking Beijing the commander was able to communicate to Cheng (correct me if i am wrong) however once you explode a nuke EMP will knock out all the electronics device and how can people from Beijing able to communicate
That was a conventional warhead over the N-CC, west of Beijing. So no EMP there...

Ok let me stay corrected ......... so India did not Nuke the Chinese even though they launched their nukes against us........ If i was the NSA i would have killed the PM trust me (Lighter note )

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 14 Jan 2013 10:13

No such jokes or you will land in trouble. Edit your post pl.