Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

[Theo_Fidel]

The way I remember it BJP depended almost completely on the personal popularity of ABV in 2004. The 'India rising' nonsense is only brought in to avoid putting the blame where it really belongs. There was no new idea or new plan for justice or new constituency it wooed. Look, ABV is so popular so vote for us was the entire campaign.

Even now the BJP does not understand that the Congress does not get its 30% vote share and rules because of Sonia or RG or Nehru or dynasty, etc. The Congress gets its 30% because it focuses almost laser like in the constituencies that make up that 30%. It very much has programs and agenda's to promote those groups interests. Those groups are not a captive population, they have abandoned the Congress in the past, yet the Congress now keeps them, mostly the minorities and the poor, because the BJP does not even try. The BJP needs to find enough constituencies and promote their interests. It is obvious that the Hindu khatre mein hai logic has clear limits.

Look, any national party that rules India will still find that 70%+ of the people did not vote for you. The question is how do you build the coalitions to win power. The answer to this is to not create permanent enemies. Despite all the quarrels the BJP and the Congress leadership treat each other quite cordially. Making them mortal enemies does not promote the BJP's interests. This business of trying to 'other' folks one does not agree with is foolishness.

It is entirely possible that the BJP could come to power with the support of the Congress or vice versa. This is how politics works in India.

[Supratik]

This business of trying to 'other' folks one does not agree with is foolishness.

The dynasty is venal, has usurped a once nationalist party and turned it into a venal sycophantic self-serving group. Why show mercy?

[Theo_Fidel]

I say we let the electorate decide that question, nah!

The Congress has abandoned the dynasty in the past when the electorate subjected it to sound defeats. I say 2 national defeats in row and Sonia/RG/& the entire kandhan will be dumped like garbage.

The problem is that they have won twice in a row, nah! So what is the electorate saying?

[member_20317]

At the end when all the spreadsheets have been run, all the risks have been assessed and all the future cash flows have been discounted. Two guys decide what is to be risked by their respective selves. This is the point the personalities come in. There is no way a Yashwant, an Advani or even a Vajpayee would promise a future consideration to somebody asking him to forgo his present satisfaction and that somebody would, like an idiot accept it. This is where you need a person who has a track record for having done it all. The track record is the value. The price is for the delivery. NDA consitituents had no track record. Ergo no valuation. Hence nobody got convinced. Nobody expected delivery. Even today their is only one man in the whole of NDA with that kind of track record. Strangely enough, I find him acting pricey too.

The C system cannot be taken down that easy because the C system is part of the globalised socio-political-economic structure. With a significant part of our own people involved in a significant manner, in this structure. And very fruitfully too. The person who has to clean up the C system will have to rely on the support of these very significant part of our own people. These guys will be willing to postpone satisfaction or make an extra effort but only for a future gain. This is a continuing fight. No need to fight it if it makes somebody loose his cool.

Most likely our children will have to overthrow the BJP too because BJP would have served its purpose.

Also Sanku ji ABV and Advani ji were fighting well actually dono munh phula ke baite they. That was not a mere put on. I was reporting to somebody with family relations with one of these guys. And people that needed to be convinced were aware of these problems. In fact my concern this time round is that NM and D4 should not just ignore each other and do a repeat of the last time. That way the country looses. Currently both have acted without any sense of urgency.

Challo ji good night.

[devesh]

I say we let the electorate decide that question, nah!

The Congress has abandoned the dynasty in the past when the electorate subjected it to sound defeats. I say 2 national defeats in row and Sonia/RG/& the entire kandhan will be dumped like garbage.

The problem is that they have won twice in a row, nah! So what is the electorate saying?

eh...we all are Indians too. we have every right to take part in the decision making process as the Congress lovers.

yes, we should let the electorate decide. and we are part of the electorate, even if we are not in a position to vote temporarily.

[Supratik]

I say we let the electorate decide that question, nah!

The Congress has abandoned the dynasty in the past when the electorate subjected it to sound defeats. I say 2 national defeats in row and Sonia/RG/& the entire kandhan will be dumped like garbage.

The problem is that they have won twice in a row, nah! So what is the electorate saying?

Thats not correct. The dynasty older generation got liquidated. Otherwise IG would be still ruling till the 90s and Rajiv till now. The electorate is 70% less than $2/day, 25% illiterate and 50% or more uneducated. 2004 is a mystery, 2009 was urban India backing MMS and rural India saying thank you with the freebies. I think INC is going to regain its nationalistic mojo or forced to regain it once it gets rid of the dynasty. Then we won't have to hear about how Sonia cried as "power is poison" (who asked you to take it?) and Rahul's "leadership is imposed from the top" (then what are you doing there?), etc. I find power without accountability distasteful. At least IG and RG had the guts to fight it out in the streets.

[johneeG]

The way I remember it BJP depended almost completely on the personal popularity of ABV in 2004. The 'India rising' nonsense is only brought in to avoid putting the blame where it really belongs. There was no new idea or new plan for justice or new constituency it wooed. Look, ABV is so popular so vote for us was the entire campaign.

Even now the BJP does not understand that the Congress does not get its 30% vote share and rules because of Sonia or RG or Nehru or dynasty, etc. The Congress gets its 30% because it focuses almost laser like in the constituencies that make up that 30%. It very much has programs and agenda's to promote those groups interests. Those groups are not a captive population, they have abandoned the Congress in the past, yet the Congress now keeps them, mostly the minorities and the poor, because the BJP does not even try. The BJP needs to find enough constituencies and promote their interests. It is obvious that the Hindu khatre mein hai logic has clear limits.

Look, any national party that rules India will still find that 70%+ of the people did not vote for you. The question is how do you build the coalitions to win power. The answer to this is to not create permanent enemies. Despite all the quarrels the BJP and the Congress leadership treat each other quite cordially. Making them mortal enemies does not promote the BJP's interests. This business of trying to 'other' folks one does not agree with is foolishness.

It is entirely possible that the BJP could come to power with the support of the Congress or vice versa. This is how politics works in India.

You are describing the present state of affairs in Indian politics. The present state was created in this manner because of long rule of kongis. kongis themselves were a product of the colonial brits. So, the present situation is not some divine diktat, but rather moulded by previous regimes to their advantage.

You are, now, advising that BJP(or any other competing party) must learn from kongis. In short, become a shadow of kongis. They can survive in this system, if they become like kongis because the system was created by kongis. Thats your logic. By the same logic, kongis had to become like brits to survive because the system was created by the brits.

To give an analogy: let us say that pigs have occupied a place and created a lot of mess. It was originally habitat of peacocks. Now, because it has become mess, does it mean that peacocks must ape the pigs and learn to live like pigs? Or should the peacocks try to rectify the mess?

Anyway, without going into the potential for success or failure, the question is: Is kongi tactics beneficial to the country, in general?

Frankly, any worthwhile political watcher can tell that kongis are in perpetual decline. Lack of local leaders is an endemic problem in kong, that they are unable to solve. Without going into the merits or demerits of other parties, kongis deserve to be defeated. They are still surviving due to past glory(which they build up, when they had a monopoly) and their nexus with media. They continue to survive because of caste-calculations, vote-buying, deception, gullibility of masses, ...etc.

No, kongis are not pro-poor. This is a false image building. Their misrule hurts the poor severely. Lack of employment, taking away the subsidies, rising prices, lack of general security, ...etc are felt by poor also. Merely having an NREGA or loan waiver just before elections does not mean pro-poor. Farmer suicides, in India, continue to happen. According to the kongis, a family of 5 can live for a month on 600 Rs. You call these people pro-poor?

They are neither pro-poor nor pro-middle-class. They are corrupt and inefficient. And, they are communal. It is sad commentary on India's minorities that they continue to vote of kongis in the name of secularism. Yes, they are captive vote banks, especially when the hysteria is created.

The so-called 'alliance' building capability of kongis is also being artificially trumped up. The fact of the matter is that it is NDA that gave first stable alliance Government for 5 years. Kongis are late-comers to this. Then, they have to depend on CBI and such instruments to goad their allies. Despite that, allies have left and continue to leave. It is the greed gravy train that is running this Govt. Not some egalitarian ideology of kongis that attracts allies.

If any other party gets enough seats, one can be sure that they will also be able to form a Govt. regardless of which ideology that party belongs to. It can find allies. Power-sharing is the glue that attracts the allies. Everything else becomes secondary. Given such a case, it is indeed a testimony to the strength of NDA that they have stuck together despite being out of power for two terms. Can UPA remain intact if it were to be out of power for two terms? UPA is unable to stay together even when they are in power.

What you are essentially saying is that the system is rigged in a certain way and everyone has to learn to play according to that rigged system. But, if everyone just plays along, then why have so many parties, when all of them are like each-other only?

[Theo_Fidel]

Interesting.

I only have one comment. Peacocks are amongst the most useless creatures on this planet other than eating some beneficial snakes. Pigs on the other hand are amongst the most useful creatures man has ever domesticated.

There is a moral in there somewhere but right now my blood sugar is too high.... ..night all.

[Sushupti]

[Arjun]

Despite all the quarrels the BJP and the Congress leadership treat each other quite cordially. Making them mortal enemies does not promote the BJP's interests. This business of trying to 'other' folks one does not agree with is foolishness.

India is probably the only country in the world where one of the two main political parties routinely makes it a point to accuse the other of being a 'terrorist organization'. And you say they treat each other cordially ???

The Congress is the one that started this entire 'othering' business and would leave no stone unturned to put Modi or other leaders behind bars. What the hell are we talking about here ?

[disha]

Despite all the quarrels the BJP and the Congress leadership treat each other quite cordially.

What did you do today to the book? Busy thumping it or humping it? The paki-baki (congress-hafiz_suar) nexus has just called every Hindu a terrorist and a states which are BJP ruled as terrorist supporters. And that is cordial?

The way I remember it BJP depended almost completely on the personal popularity of ABV in 2004. The 'India rising' nonsense is only brought in to avoid putting the blame where it really belongs. There was no new idea or new plan for justice or new constituency it wooed. Look, ABV is so popular so vote for us was the entire campaign.

You are a liar or worse a politician in the mould of Shinde., since you make broad statements without any citation or knowledge. Again I blame it on your cognitive dissonance coming after (t)humping a book. Here are some examples why NDA won in 1999 and why it lost and what new ideas they brought to the table.

First of all, with BJP at the helm, here is what changed and happened:

Strategically

1. NWS (strategically you will not understand implications of it, so just think that it is important irrespective of your personal biases).,
2. De-linking of missile testing from PMO's decision. Result is successful test of Agni series and India achieving a strategic maneoverable space
3. Links with ASEAN/Vietnam a fillip to look east policy (go take a tour of Vietnam and say that you love China, if you come back alive - then Vietnamese are really charitable)

Economically

1. Set the nation on a high growth part. All the growth that has been attributed to the Congress in the 2004-2009 time frame was due to policy initiatives during the NDA government
2. Resurgent India bonds. Proved that India is capable to raise the resources on its own to get ahead
3. Opening of the telecom sector (of course the money looted benefited the 2Gs)
4. And during the NDA government, we had the Kargil war, Op Parakram and countless terror attacks. That has economic implications, which the next governments did not have to deal with at all!

Infrastructure

1. You know the mota Gadkari which we all love to deride? He showed us the way on infrastructure development of roads by completing the Bombay/Pune expressway. The NDA government created the NHAI (or whatever infrastructure project it was called). What did the paki-congress do? Run it into the ground. That itself was a signal difference.

Why did they get into power?

Actually during 1999, sonia led the congress defeat, the previous AICC president Shri Sitaram Kesri did a better job previously. Nobody wanted to vote in sonia and the congress it led and hence NDA with ABV came into power., further NDA had the support of TDP from AP and DMK from TN.

How did it lose power?

In 2004 TDP and thus NDA lost big time in AP. congi got 29 and that is thanks to one YSR. Couple that with Laloo's 22, Mayawati's BSP 19, mullah-yam's 36 and CPI/M 40+., enabled the die-nasty rule in 2004.

To give you a clue, in 2004 paki-congis won 143 seats and BJP won 138 seats. For an incumbent government that spread is low given to the main opposition party. What did BJP in further was a loss of some 45 seats and for Cong to gain some 30 seats.

And in 2009, India was actually shining and not due to the paki-congis - but due to the previous government whose efforts were bearing fruit later. Coupled with continuous good monsoon and a growing world economy people attributed the economic developments to the economist pm ma-maino-sigh and the rest as they say is history (+ TDP and AIADMK were completely decimated).

Even now the BJP does not understand that the Congress does not get its 30% vote share and rules because of Sonia or RG or Nehru or dynasty, etc. The Congress gets its 30% because it focuses almost laser like in the constituencies that make up that 30%. It very much has programs and agenda's to promote those groups interests. Those groups are not a captive population, they have abandoned the Congress in the past, yet the Congress now keeps them, mostly the minorities and the poor, because the BJP does not even try. The BJP needs to find enough constituencies and promote their interests

.

For all the long winded rhetoric for the above, you forget what your ma-sonia said and the results brought in Gujarat by NaMo. NaMo identified, created and empowered the neo-middle class., which broke the KHAM votebank permanently in Gujarat. The result is any subsequent government in Gujarat will have to think of empowering the neo-middle class first before thinking of appeasement. This is what your sonia-ma and raul baba eluded to in their chinta-shiver.

It is simple, congi politics is a politics of appeasement. Moditva is action towards empowerment. Once the aam-janta gets it, they go beyond appeasement and towards empowerment - KHAM or not.

I have a kind suggestion to save your soul, please fold two hands and say namo in front of your books.

It is obvious that the Hindu khatre mein hai logic has clear limits.

Hindu khatrein mein hai brought BJP in power., it was their blatant appeasement politics in run up to 2004/2009 in UP that hurt them. They even tried to appease bakistan in the hope that the IM will vote for them. Idiots. And BTW, Hindus are in danger in their own country, and a spineless HM is now calling them terrorists in cahoots with the terrorist hafiz-suar., to appease the muslim votebank.

Here is another kind suggestion, do not think like a bakistani ahmediyya or a shia. Otherwise you will reap the whirlwind when the shield of the Hindu majority is gone. If you do not believe me, please go to bakistan.

.. The question is how do you build the coalitions to win power. The answer to this is to not create permanent enemies.

Here is a simple list., money_power (ask Kanimozhi and A. Raja., they will have better tips)., use Congraze Bureau of Inv (CBI., ask Jagan)., empty the treasury for schemes like NREGA etc

It is entirely possible that the BJP could come to power with the support of the Congress or vice versa. This is how politics works in India.

Will happen only when die-nasty is uprooted and the communists take hold.

[member_20317]

disha ji you have answered everything quite well, but request a little less flourish please. Flourish in rhetoric is necessary only when the majority needs to be countered. The majority here is on the same side.

Theo ji deserves to be treated better. At least he reads and even tries to supplement is understanding in other threads. We have others that do not even read and keep blabbering. And they have already started trolling on this thread even when this thread may actually need to go well into 2014.

----------------------------

Today I learnt that Rajnath Singh had mended fences with NM. Now Rajnath is a UP ka bhaiya of the most idiotic and indolent kind. He could well have been choosen because those who put up his name are now confident of getting him to stamp the decisions being made. Surprisingly there is nothing from NM on this so I take that as his acquiescence in Rajnath. Ergo NM and the Jedi council are now finally in the same direction. Only the so called D4 remain. They too need to be molified too. They too deserve some space. Off course without coming in the way of developing dynamics. Purane log hein thoda khayal karna banta hai.

[Sushupti]

----------------------------

Today I learnt that Rajnath Singh had mended fences with NM. Now Rajnath is a UP ka bhaiya of the most idiotic and indolent kind. He could well have been choosen because those who put up his name are now confident of getting him to stamp the decisions being made. Surprisingly there is nothing from NM on this so I take that as his acquiescence in Rajnath. Ergo NM and the Jedi council are now finally in the same direction. Only the so called D4 remain. They too need to be molified too. They too deserve some space. Off course without coming in the way of developing dynamics. Purane log hein thoda khayal karna banta hai.

and RNS is not Bhaiya of BSP/SP type. He is MSc (Physics) with First division. IMO, his son Pankaj could be the problem for him, given Pankaj's connection with Easter UP mafias like Brajesh Singh.And in Delhi his real problem is poor English, rustic personality and lack of Dilli-Billi etiquette.

Regarding D4 ignoring him like in his first term, forget about it. Then Lohpurush was PM candidate and D4s like Jaitely could getaway with it. In 2012 Lohpurush is like a post coitus limp phallus. Interesting times ahead.

[member_20317]

Sushupti ji, UP ka bhaiya is a developing pejorative fit for the kind of people they have in SP and BSP. But RNS has prooved himself little better. Surprisingly his ineffectual style has become the need of the hour. Aisa bhi hota hai.

He was the agri-minister and the CM of UP and with Tikait group it is Baba Ramdev that is corresponding. Sometime back the Tikait group declared they would provide security to a certain somebody who is not liked here and the DM was reduced to negotiating with this group, obviously on behalf the CM. This kind of power projection should have come from RNS with Baba Ramdev ji building up on it. Unfortunately a lot of people have to reinvent the wheel merely because a few do not do their job good enough.

Also thanks for the lead about the son of RNS. Don't know much about these stinger missiles.

[Sushupti]

Sushupti ji, UP ka bhaiya is a developing pejorative fit for the kind of people they have in SP and BSP. But RNS has prooved himself little better. Surprisingly his ineffectual style has become the need of the hour. Aisa bhi hota hai.

He was the agri-minister and the CM of UP and with Tikait group it is Baba Ramdev that is corresponding. Sometime back the Tikait group declared they would provide security to a certain somebody who is not liked here and the DM was reduced to negotiating with this group, obviously on behalf the CM. This kind of power projection should have come from RNS with Baba Ramdev ji building up on it. Unfortunately a lot of people have to reinvent the wheel merely because a few do not do their job good enough.

Also thanks for the lead about the son of RNS. Don't know much about these stinger missiles.

I would judge him by his stint as education minister in 91 Kalyan Singh govt in UP i.e. when he got free hand and chance to come out with his own ideas.

Period you are talking about is when everything was controlled (in UP) by "Atal Ji" and his Chamachas like Tondon. Given his Thakur temperament credit should be given to him for not treading the path of Kalyan Singh. May be Sangh's sanskaras took precedence over his khandani sanskaras.

[Sushupti]

[member_20317]

Arre sir, 91 mein I was still in school. I actually hated it when Sanghis refused to get controlled over RJM. But I grew well I guess. Also about my shorter memory, you are right. I got interested in politics only since last 1-2 years.

I guess even RNS is not as idiot as I perceive him to be. After all he has maintained his loyalties while I developed mine only recently. But he is definitely off colour for the season. The colour for this age should be NM and RSS.

Also if you have something on RNS for his education minister stint, I would be thankful. In any case I will be looking around to read up on him considering he may be the president of BJP.

[vijayk]

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/bjp-r ... 98983.html

Even though each member will have his or her own politics to play and will be wary of the others, this new quadrumvirate will lend the BJP great flexibility and gravitas in negotiating with allies in the run-up to the next elections. It is easier to visualise a Rajnath Singh negotiating a seat deal with Nitish Kumar in Bihar than a Modi.

Uttar Pradesh is crucial for the BJP if it is to project Modi in 2014. From a meagre 10-12 seats, the party has to increase its tally to at least 20-25, and there is no way this can happen without a strong UP strategy. Rajnath Singh, and the old warhorse, Kalyan Singh, who recently merged his party with the BJP after wandering in the wilderness for years, are critical to the BJP’s revival in this heartland state.

To be sure, we do not know how a Modi-Rajnath equation would work. But the truth is this: no leader can succeed or deliver on his own. Vajpayee needed an Advani to get him the gaddi and keep the party in line. Every mass leader who can bring in the vote needs an organisational man to serve both as a sounding-board and mediate between party and government. Neither can afford to be a paper tiger – which is what Gadkari would have been if he had overstayed his welcome.

Gadkari has been an unmitigated disaster for the BJP not only because of his Purti capers. As a lightweight politician (despite his obvious girth) who owed his position more to Mohan Bhagwat than intrinsic merit, he made blunder after blunder in the party and his mentors in Nagpur did not seem to mind.

Gadkari damaged the party in Karnataka by forcing BS Yeddyurappa out, when there could have been other options: a position in the state party that could have prevented a full-scale revolt by that Lingayat strongman. The party will pay a stiff price for his folly in this year’s Assembly election.

Gadkari messed up again in Uttar Pradesh last year, where he inducted tainted ministers such as Babu Singh Kushwaha before the assembly poll and dented the party’s anti-corruption stance. The last-minute induction of Uma Bharati, now a spent political force outside Madhya Pradesh, was not the kind of inspired decision-making the BJP expected of Gadkari.

He screwed up in Jharkhand, where he did an ignoble deal with tainted JMM chief Shibu Soren. His nominee Arjun Munda has now bitten the dust, with Soren’s party pulling the plug and the Governor placing the state under president’s rule.

The problem with Gadkari was simple: he was a technocrat, not a leader or strategist. His political instincts were weak, and this is probably why the RSS headquarters in Nagpur favoured him as their proxy in the party.

[Supratik]

Guys, kindly don't insult Theo's religion or attack him personally.

[Sushupti]

Let us debate the idea of India

http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/V7b5nL2 ... India.html

[RajeshA]

Guys, kindly don't insult Theo's religion or attack him personally.

+1

[SaiK]

[img]https://twitpic.com/show/large/bxikcm

so, we haven't seen complete yet. we have to wait for modi-fication till a bahadu shah the 2 arrives.

[johneeG]

so, we haven't seen complete yet. we have to wait for modi-fication till a bahadu shah the 2 arrives.

Dilli Sultanate(Slave Dynasty or Mamluk Dynasty installed by Mohammad Ghori):
Aibak->Iltutmish->Razia Sultana->Balban->End
Nehru->Indira->Rajiv->Maino->

[devesh]

Theo really shows his mindset when he starts talking about "Hindu khatre mein hai" nonsense. Hindu khatre me hazar saal se hai, and Theo thinks it is something that was invented by BJP and RSS in the last few decades....need we say more on this?

but we understand Theo's real message here: Muslim khatre mein hai and Christian khatre mein hai are valid sentiments, to be used whenever the secularism as defined by the protectors of the proselytizing Abrahamics is in danger. but Hindu khatre mein hai is a "dangerous", "communal" sentiment that of course, clearly, very clearly, oh so clearly, has "limits" drawn in red.

[RamaY]

Theo really shows his mindset when he starts talking about "Hindu khatre mein hai" nonsense. Hindu khatre me hazar saal se hai, and Theo thinks it is something that was invented by BJP and RSS in the last few decades....need we say more on this?

but we understand Theo's real message here: Muslim khatre mein hai and Christian khatre mein hai are valid sentiments, to be used whenever the secularism as defined by the protectors of the proselytizing Abrahamics is in danger. but Hindu khatre mein hai is a "dangerous", "communal" sentiment that of course, clearly, very clearly, oh so clearly, has "limits" drawn in red.

The "Secularism Khatre mein hai" covers every non-Hindu khatre mein hai theme.

But majority of Hindus still cannot believe secularism means christianity without church. They still think and say that Secularism means pluralism and worst equality of all religions.

Yesterday a christian umbrella group in AP asked to allocate at least 18 MLA seats to Christians in AP assembly. Interestingly secularism didnt come in their way. Same with when people claim Sachar committee recommendations to give reserved seats to Muslims.

I happy as long as Hindus realize this drama.

[ramana]

Old spitoon Mooroni writes:
BJP and Godse

Fair warning.

[devesh]

Noorani is absolutely right about one thing.

the RSS and Savarkar do deserve each other. if that's supposed to be an insult, it fails to inspire.

RSS could not ask for a better inspiration. and Savarkar could not ask for a better organization to lead, if he got the chance.

[Hari Seldon]

^+1 devesh garu.

Savarkar inspires #respect. Only.

Even LooRanis (Queens of the Loos) can be right twice a day, seems like....

[member_23658]

Its interesting that Noorani puts assasinations of English officers during the struggle for Independence as 'gruesome murders' and as something negetive against Savarkar. The petition for mercy and the letters were the normal legal process at the time for prisoners. Its detailed in his autobiography.
To digress a little bit : I believe RSS and Savarkar had basic idealogical problems. He was a rationalist. He was not against eating beef and had refused to condemn cow slaughter. RSS in a way was started by orthodox brahmins (although removal of caste distinctions has always an objective in the Sangh). It was difficult for them to accept some of his more rational ideas.
By the way, his ideas on removal of caste distinctions was way more forward than anyone at the time even Gandhiji. While Gandhiji tried to change labels by calling dalits 'harijans', Savarkar went to the root of the problem. for example: Patit Pawan temple concept created by him trained the lowest castes in the temple rituals and installed them as priests. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patit_Pavan_Mandir

[RamaY]

Someone should call out the partition riots that happened under the very nose of JLN and file a crimes against humanity case against him in ICC for Muslim genocide. I read that nearly Half a million Muslims were killed under JLN's watch.

P.S: don't worry about the deaths of Hindus.

[Sushupti]

Its interesting that Noorani puts assasinations of English officers during the struggle for Independence as 'gruesome murders' and as something negetive against Savarkar. The petition for mercy and the letters were the normal legal process at the time for prisoners. Its detailed in his autobiography.
To digress a little bit : I believe RSS and Savarkar had basic idealogical problems. He was a rationalist. He was not against eating beef and had refused to condemn cow slaughter. RSS in a way was started by orthodox brahmins (although removal of caste distinctions has always an objective in the Sangh). It was difficult for them to accept some of his more rational ideas.
By the way, his ideas on removal of caste distinctions was way more forward than anyone at the time even Gandhiji. While Gandhiji tried to change labels by calling dalits 'harijans', Savarkar went to the root of the problem. for example: Patit Pawan temple concept created by him trained the lowest castes in the temple rituals and installed them as priests. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patit_Pavan_Mandir

IMO, it's difference between Shamkhya(Savarkar) and Purva Mimansa (Orthodox Brahamins)

[nachiket]

To digress a little bit : I believe RSS and Savarkar had basic idealogical problems. He was a rationalist. He was not against eating beef and had refused to condemn cow slaughter. RSS in a way was started by orthodox brahmins (although removal of caste distinctions has always an objective in the Sangh). It was difficult for them to accept some of his more rational ideas.

This is true. Savarkar has written an excellent book in Marathi named Vidnyan Nishtha Nibandha (loosely translated as "Essays devoted to Science"), where his total rationalism is apparent. His philosophy (the original Hindutva) was more Cultural and Political and he always emphasized a devotion to the motherland (Bharatvarsha) more than any religious commitment. The RSS does not really follow all that he preached. Savarkar had little use for things like banning cow-slaughter (he did not consider the cow as a holy animal). He did however strongly favor re-converting converted Hindus (many orthodox people at the time stupidly opposed this on religious grounds).

Anyway, enough OT or the Bredators will send a hellphyr after me.

[ramana]

I wonder if BRAWman is having a hissy fit as to where the Internet Hindus are hiding for he can't see this thread without logging in!

[Vipul]

The Nehru-Gandhi dynasty: Fated to rule India.

Just before 1947, India had four strong organizations: The Indian National Congress, the All-India Muslim League, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and the Communist Party of India.

Immediately after Independence, the Muslim League went to Pakistan, the RSS decided to remain apolitical and the CPI for some strange reason refused to recognize the new government and its President BT Randive called for an armed struggle, effectively taking it out of the political mainstream.

That gave a total free run to the Congress and it was a virtual one-party rule at all levels for decades.

As far as the leaders went, Mahatma Gandhi was assassinated in 1948 and Sardar Vallabhai Patel died in 1950. C Rajagopalachari and Rajendra Prasad occupied the ceremonial posts of Governor General and President respectively. Even the giant Dalit leader BR Ambedkar (father of the Constitution) was marginalized from the party and quit in 1951.

What that meant was that Jawaharlal Nehru stood alone and became a virtual dictator. That was the case till his death in 1964. But at that time no-one suspected that India would be in the grips of a dynasty.

That more so because Lal Bahadur Shastri took over. He was just 59 and was expected to have a long reign like Nehru. However, he mysteriously died in 1966 and the grand old men of the Congress made a monumental blunder by installing Nehru’s daughter Indira Gandhi thinking she would be a “goongi gudiya” (mute doll). She proved to be an Iron Lady in the end.

The Congress soon split with all the senior leaders on one side and Indira on the other. The Election Commission recognized Indira’s party as the original and that effectively gave a stamp on the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty. Now Indira had a free run, just like Nehru.

The first chance to break the shackles came in 1977. The Janata Party bagged a whopping 345 Lok Sabha seats. A full term was there for the asking and they could even have had a second term if they did a decent job. But that was not to be. The Janata Party fought itself to its destruction and Indira made a comeback.

The next time that the dynasty seemed to be finished was the period of 1989-2004. The Janata Dal ruled from 1989-91 and 1996-98, but could not sustain itself thereafter. PV Narasmiha Rao was the father of liberalization and made foreign policy breakthroughs. He ushered in total peace in Punjab. He also gave an impetus to India’s nuclear and missile programmes.

However, the electorate booted out Rao and that gave a chance for the dynasty to make a comeback and Sonia Gandhi eventually became Congress President. Dependence on the dynasty became firmly rooted again as top leaders Madhavrao Scindia and Rajesh Pilot died in accidents.

Despite that both the Congress and the dynasty seemed finished in 2004.

The NDA became India’s first successful coalition government at the Centre. They took Rao’s economic reforms forward, conducted the Pokhran nuclear tests to boost their ratings and won a war. Just before the 2004 elections, they were looking to get re-elected.

LK Advani seemed set to take the reins of prime ministership from AB Vajpayee with a strong Narendra Modi waiting in the wings.

The odds were heavily stacked against the Congress and loaded in favour of the BJP.

Then in an amazing turnaround which no-one predicted, the NDA lost. When Manmohan Singh took over in 2004, the stock market crashed and most predicted that the government would all in 2-3 years.

That never happened and the UPA completed its term even after the sordid cash for votes scam. In 2009, the Indian electorate gave a further surprise and gave the Congress an even greater mandate.

Both the dynasty and Congress were firmly back in business. Sonia Gandhi will complete a whopping 15 years as Congress President this year.

If one looks at the history of India, then fate has always conspired to make sure that the Congress and dynasty make a comeback no matter what the odds.

Going by that logic, it seems destined that Rahul Gandhi will become PM in 2014. In case of a badly hung mandate, he could still get his chance in 2016 or 2017.

The dynasty has already produced 5 Congress presidents and 3 PMs. Even members like Feroze Gandhi and Sanjay Gandhi had a very bright political future had they not died early. That’s almost a cent per cent success rate.

All in all, it looks like Priyanka Gandhi has a much greater chance of becoming PM one day than say Modi!

[member_23629]

Then in an amazing turnaround which no-one predicted, the NDA lost

.

A dead Congress was resurrected by the Goras by getting Vajpayee to introduce EVMs. That is why the turnaround seemed "amazing" for most Indians.

[vijayk]

Then in an amazing turnaround which no-one predicted, the NDA lost

.

A dead Congress was resurrected by the Goras by getting Vajpayee to introduce EVMs. That is why the turnaround seemed "amazing" for most Indians.

What do you mean by EVMs were introduced by foreigners using Vajpayee. Is there any information on this? How did they convince him?

[Sushupti]

^^ remember new Laxman anointed by "Atal Ji" after Mumbai BJP convention.

[Philip]

I am not so sure whether there is a great difference in the idea of India between the two.Both are pro-capital,but with a "Socialist heart" for the downtrodden and underprivileged. Mr.Modi is a mature and seasoned politician who knows hot to get a job/policy done.,Rahul is young and immmature at governance,who probably has some vision of a prosperous India.

However, the genuineness and capability of the two are quite another story.While Mr.Modi has his track record to speak for himself,Rahul G has only his mouthings-not too inspiring at that and a track record of failure.Being elevated as Veep into the most corrupt Indian govt. ever,he cannot extricate himself from the taint an d sleaze that his party and UPA represent.If he really wants to make a diff. in Indian politics,then he should sack the corrupt within his own party and also junk Quislings like Shinde who have outraged the nation with his asinine accusations.

Frankly,in 20014,it will be a no-contest if the two are pitted against each other as the future PM.

[ramana]

Philip,

Just before 1947, India had four strong organizations: The Indian National Congress, the All-India Muslim League, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and the Communist Party of India.

With ML going to TSP, Communists in the wilderness, the Mahatma's killing was pinned on the Hindus and the INC was left all alone.
I think with Partition (got rid of ML) and Mahatma's killing(silenced the Hindus) was a way to secularize India.

[disha]

Guys, kindly don't insult Theo's religion or attack him personally.

Interesting.

PMANE is a christian funded and backed organization which initiated bloody protests. At least one Indian is known have died in the protests organized by PMANE. Further PMANE has publicly declared that they will adapt mao'ist tactics to achieve their goal. PMANE is thus a church funded brutal organization ready to subvert democracy.

I have not seen any statement by him that goes against his co-religionists supporting PMANE. In fact, time and again he came in support of PMANE inspite of death of an innocent Indian. So what drives him to defend his co-religionists? Religion? If religion is causing the cognitive-dissonance in theo, then it is our moral duty to save his soul by pointing out that blind faith in his religion is causing a moral inadequacy.

Now going one step further, theo is chiding us with "Hindu Khatrein mein hain" slogan. The point is that when a Hindu is feeling vulnerable in his own land, in his own home and where the Hon'ble HM Shinde has jeapordized the lives of all Indians (and not just Hindus) and basically equilized the 26/11 attack on India and given a huge strategic advantage to terrorist vermins like Hafiz suar, what does theo come and say? If he had only stated that whatever be the political motive of CongI, Hon'ble Shinde should not have sold the nation down the road., he would be more receptive. Atleast he could have empathized with the hurt that has caused to most Indians? But no, he had to spread more inanities.

How can be a person who is very smart, communicative and analytical in other threads (Economy) coming up with ignorant and stupid inanities in other threads (like this thread) and cannot look at data analytically? Because of religion? Or complexes given by his religion? So once in a while if he is reminded that he needs to get down of his high horse, or shaken up from his deep slumber by some rude jolts, we are just doing the duty of helping a fellow Indian.

I do know theo is an environmentalist. Looks at renewable technologies to minimize human's impact on nature. Generally gives respect to everybody and presents his case respectfully (until he puts his blinkers on). I have been supportive of theo's posts in the economy thread! I think in his very heart he is a Hindu.

Yes, some of my suggestions to theo has been gratitous, but they are nothing but a reflection on my frustration on how an analytical mind can be corrupted by blind reading of a book or following a particular mainovadi party hook-line-and-sinker. And this is of a well travelled, well educated elite we are talking about!

I will try to keep some personal suggestions to myself, at the same time theo needs to understand that his fellow Indians are in pain and he needs to show more empathy rather than making gratitous statements (Hindu khatrein mein hai)., or illogical conclusions just to see his mainovadi party in power.