Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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Anand K
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Anand K » 07 Feb 2013 14:22

Nitpicking onlee.... "Kabul" is from Kubha river right? IIRC there are references to the city of Kubhathada also in some of our texts.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 07 Feb 2013 15:59

Wiki

The first references to Kapisa appear in the writings of 5th century BCE Indian scholar Achariya Pāṇini. Pāṇini refers to the city of Kapiśi, a city of the Kapisa kingdom.[1] Pāṇini also refers to Kapiśayana,[2] a famous wine from Kapisa.[3] The city of Kapiśi also appeared as Kaviśiye on Graeco-Indian coins of Appolodotus/Eucratides.[4]

Archeology discoveries in 1939 confirm that the city of Kapisa was an emporium for Kapiśayana wine, discovering numerous glass flasks, fish-shaped wine jars, and drinking cups typical of the wine trade of the era.[5] The grapes (Kapiśayani Draksha) and wine (Kapiśayani Madhu) of the area are referred to by several works of ancient Indian literature.[6] The Mahabharata also noted the common practice of slavery in the city.[7]

According to the scholar Pliny, the city of Kapiśi (also referred to as Kaphusa by Pliny's copyist Solinus [8] and Kapisene by other classical chroniclers) was destroyed in the 6th century BCE by the Achaemenian emperor Cyrus (Kurush) (559-530 BC).

In later times, Kapisa seems to have been part of a kingdom ruled by a Buddhist Kshatriya king holding sway over ten neighboring states including Lampaka, Nagarahara, Gandhara and Banu, according to the Chinese pilgrim Hiuen Tsang who visited in 644 AD.[9] Hiuen Tsang notes the Shen breed of horses from the area, and also notes the production of many types of cereals and fruits, as well as a scented root called Yu-kin.

Equivalence to Sanskrit Kamboja

Kapisa is related to and included Kafiristan. Scholar community holds that Kapisa is equivalent to Sanskrit Kamboja. In other words, Kamboja and Kapisa are believed to be two attempts to render the same foreign word (which could not appropriately be transliterated into Sanskrit). Dr S Levi further holds that old Persian Ka(m)bujiya or Kau(n)bojiya, Sanskrit Kamboja as well as Kapisa, all etymologically refer to the same foreign word.Even the evidence from 3rd century Buddhist tantra text Mahamayuri (which uses Kabusha for Kapisha) and the Ramayana-manjri by Sanskrit Acharya, Kshmendra of Kashmir (11th c AD), which specifically equates Kapisa with Kamboja, thus substituting the former with the latter, therefore, sufficiently attest that Kapisa and Kamboja are equivalent.

Even according to illustrious Indian history series: History and Culture of Indian People, Kapisa and Kamboja are equivalent. Scholars like Dr Moti Chandra, Dr Krishna Chandra Mishra etc. also write that the Karpasika (of Mahabharata) and Kapisa (Ki-pin/Ka-pin/Chi-pin of the Chinese writings) are synonymous terms. Thus, both Karpasika and Kapisa are essentially equivalent to Sanskrit Kamboja. And Pāṇinian term Kapiśi is believed to have been the capital of ancient Kamboja.

Kapisa (Ki-pin, Ke-pin, Ka-pin, Chi-pin of the Chinese records), in fact, refers to the Kamboja kingdom, located on the south-eastern side of the Hindukush in the Paropamisadae region. It was anciently inhabited by the Aśvakayana (Greek: Assakenoi), and the Aśvayana (Greek Aspasio) (q.v.) sub-tribes of the Kambojas. {Hain, Again Aswa?}

Epic Mahabharata refers to two Kamboja settlements: one called Kamboja, adjacent to the Daradas (of Gilgit), extending from Kafiristan to south-east Kashmir including Rajauri/Poonch districts, while the original Kamboja, known as Parama Kamboja was located north of Hindukush in Transoxiana territory mainly in Badakshan and Pamirs/Allai valley, as neighbors to the Rishikas in the Scythian land.

Even Ptolemy refers to two Kamboja territories/and or ethnics - viz.: (1) Tambyzoi, located north of Hindukush on Oxus in Bactria/Badakshan and (2) Ambautai located on southern side of Hindukush in Paropamisadae. Even the Komoi clan of Ptolemy, inhabiting towards Sogdiana mountainous regions, north of Bactria, is believed by scholars to represent the Kamboja people. {All central Asians are bascially Indians}

Front ranking scholars like Dr S. Levi, Dr Michael Witzel and numerous others accept the identity of Tambyzoi and Ambautai with Sanskrit Kamboja. Obviously, the Ptolemian Ambautai formed parts of the Kapisa kingdom under sway of Aśvakayana/Aśvayana (Aśvaka) Kambojas. It appears probable that the original home of the Kambojas was trans-Oxian Kamboja, from where, some tribal sections moved south-wards and planted colonies in Paropamisan on southern side of Hindukush. With passage of time, the Paropamisan settlements came to be addressed as Kamboja proper, whereas the original Kamboja settlement lying north of Hindukush, in Transoxiana, became known as 'Parama-Kamboja' i.e. furthest Kamboja.[42] Some scholars call Parama Kamboja as 'Uttara-Kamboja' i.e. northern Kamboja[43] or Distant Kamboja.[44] The Kapisa-Kamboja equivalence as suggested by scholars like Dr Levi applies to the Paropamisan Kamboja settlement.

Kafir and Kafiristan etymologically derived from Kapisa(?)

According to the conventional etymology, the name "Kafir" derives from Arabic Kafir, commonly translated into English as "infidels" or "idolaters". Kafiristan then would be "The Land of the Infidels". This explanation would justify the renaming of the country after its Islamization.
Many historians, however, opine that the local name "Kafir" comes from Kapiśa (= Kapisha), the ancient Sanskrit name of the region that included historic Kafiristan; which is also given as "Ki-pin" (or Ke-pin, Ka-pin, Chi-pin) in old Chinese chronicles. That name, unrelated to the Arabic word, is believed to have, at some point, mutated into the word Kapir. This linguistic phenomenon is not unusual for this region. The name of King Kanishaka, who once ruled over this region, is also found written as "Kanerika", an example of "ś" or "sh" mutating to "r".[46] In a similar way, Kapiś – the name of the people of Kapiś/Kapiśa, is believed to have changed to Kapir and then Kafir. One of the dominant clan of the Kafirs till recently was known as Katir.

The second change from Kapir to Kafir, may have occurred spontaneously, since the exchange of "p" by "f" is fairly common in Middle Indo-Aryan.[50] It may also have been the result of confusion or intentional wordplay with the Arabic word, since the Kafirs were indeed pagans until 1895. Kafiristan then derives from -stan which in Iranian language means country, abode or place. Thus, Kafiristan would literally mean the land or abode of the Kafir (Kapir) peoples i.e. people belonging to Kapiśa.

Today it is disputed if the term Kafir really defines a traditional ethnic group.

Pisachi Migrants into Kapisa

Although Kapisa was within the boundaries of Aryan communities, what today is Afghanistan was also invaded several times by Turks/Tokhars, Scytho-Sarmatians, Greeks, and others.
It is believed that many of the inhabitants of Kapisa were non-Aryan Pisachi (cannibal). The fact that cannibalism existed around the region is testified by Roman scholar Pliny the Elder, who mentions the Tocharians as cannibals.[51] They are described of as "pisitasana" or white-skinned.

Physical characteristics of the people of ancient Kapiśa

Hiuen Tsang says that "the people of Kapiśa (Kai-pi-chi(h)) are cruel and fierce; their language is coarse and rude. Their marriage ceremonies are mere intermingling of sexes. Their literature is like that of Tukhara country but the customs, the common language, and rule of behavior are somewhat different. For clothing they use hair garments (wool); their garments are trimmed with furs. In commerce, they use gold and silver coins and also little copper coins. Hiuen Tsang further writes that the king of Kapisa is Kshatriya by caste. He is of shrewd character (nature) and being brave and determined, he has brought into subjection the neighboring countries, some ten of which he rules ".

According to scholars, much of the description of the people from Kapiśa to Rajapura as given by Hiuen Tsang agrees well with the characteristics of the Kambojas described in the Buddhist text, Bhuridatta Jataka as well in the great Indian epic Mahabharata. Moreover, the Drona Parava of Mahabharata specifically attests that Rajapuram was a metropolitan city of the epic Kambojas. The Rajapuram (=Rajapura) of Mahabharata (Ho-b-she-pu-lo of Hiuen Tsang) has been identified with modern Rajauri in south-western Kashmir. Culturally speaking, Kapiśa had significant Iranian influence.

The early Shahis of Kapiśa/Kabul

The affinities of the earlier Shahi rulers (the so-called Turk Shahis) of Kapisa/Kabul, who are believed to have probably ruled from early 5th century till 870 AD, are still not clear. The different scholars link their affinities to different ethnics. 11th century Muslim histriographer Alberuni's confused accounts on the early history of Shahis based mainly as they are on folklore, do not inspire much confidence on the precise identity of the early Shahis of Kapisa/Kabul. They call them as Hindus on the one hand and claim their descent from the Turks, while at the same time, they also claim their origin/descent from Tibet. Dr V. A. Smith calls the early Shahis as a Cadet Branch of the Kushanas. H. M. Elliot identifies them with Kators/Katirs and further link them to Kushans. George Scott Robertson writes that the Kators/Katirs of Kafiristan belong to the well known Siyaposh tribal group of the Kams, Kamoz and Kamtoz tribes. Charles Fredrick Oldham identifies them with Naga-worshiping Takkas or Kathas and groups the Naga-cum-Sun worshipping Urasass (Hazaras), Abhisaras, Gandharas, Kambojas and Daradas collectively as the representatives of the Takkas or Kathas. Dr D. B. Pandey traces the affinities of the early Kabul Shahis to the Hunas. Bishan Singh and K. S. Dardi etc. connect the Kabul Shahis to the ancient Ksatriya clans of the Kambojas/Gandharas. 7th century Chinese pilgrim Hiuen Tsang, who visited INdis (629 AD - 645 AD) calls the ruler of Kapisa as Buddhist and of a Ksatriya caste. Twevfth century Kashmirian historian Kalhana, the author of famous Rajatarangini, also calls the Shahis of Gandhara/Waihind as Ksatriyas.[74] These early references link this Ksatriya ruler and his dynasty undoubtedly to the Indo-Iranian Aryan lineage. Further, though Kalhana takes the history of the Shahis to as early as or even earlier than 730 century AD, but very interestingly, he does not refer to any supplanting of the Shahi dynasty at any time in the entire history of the Shahis. It is also worth mentioning here that the ancient Indian sources like Pāṇini's Astadhyayi, Harivamsa,[77] Vayu Purana,[78] Manusmriti,[79] Mahabharata,[80] Kautiliya's Arthashastra[81] etc etc call the Kambojas and the Gandharas as Ksatriyas.

According to Olaf Caroe, the earlier Kabul Shahis, in some sense, were the inheritors of the Kushana-Hephthalite chancery tradition and had brought in more Hinduised form with time. There does not yet exist in the upper Kabul valley any documentary evidence or any identifiable coinage which can establish the exact affinities of these early Shahis who ruled there during the first two Islamic centuries.[82] Obviously, the affinities of the early Shahis of Kapisa/Kabul are still speculative, and the inheritance of the Kushan-Hephthalite chancery tradition and political institutions by Kabul Shahis do not necessarily connect them to the preceding dynasty i.e. the Kushanas or Hephthalites. From fifth century to about 794 AD, their capital was Kapisa, the ancient home of the cis-Hindukush Kambojas – popularly also known as Ashvakas. After the Arab Moslems began raiding the Shahi kingdom, the Shahi ruler of Kapisa moved their capital to Kabul (until 870 AD). Alberuni's accounts further claim that the last king of the early Shahiya dynasty was king Lagaturman (Katorman) who was overthrown and imprisoned by his Brahmin vizier called Kallar. Alberuni's reference to the Brahman vizier as having taken over the control of the Shahi dynasty, in fact, may be a reference to Kallar (and his successors) as having been followers of Brahmanical religion in contrast to Shahi Katorman (Lagaturman) or his predecessors Shahi rulers, who were undoubtedly staunch Buddhists.[83] It is very likely that a change in religion may have been confused with change in dynasty. In any case, this started the line of so-called Hindu Shahi rulers, according to Alberuni's accounts.

Scholars have identified the former Kafir clans of the Kams, Kamoje/Kamoz, Kamtoz etc. (or modern Nuristanis) as the relics of the ancient Kapiśas i.e. Kambojas of the Paropamisan region. Similarly, the former Kafirs like Aspins of Chitral and Ashkuns or Yashkuns of Gilgit are identified as the modern representatives of the Pāṇinian Aśvakayanas (Greek: Assakenoi) and the Asip/Isap or Yusufzai (from Aspazai) in the Kabul valley (between river Kabul and Indus) are believed to be modern representatives of the Pāṇinian Aśvayanas (Greek: Aspasio) respectively. The Aśvakayanas and Aśvayanas are also believed to be sub-tribes of Paropamisan Kambojas, who were exclusively engaged in horse breeding/trading and also formed a specialised cavalry force.[91]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kapisa

The Kushan king Vima Kadphises as read and understood by Gora hisorians, may be Vima or Bhima Kapisasya - Vima/Bhima of Kapisa!
Last edited by Murugan on 07 Feb 2013 16:14, edited 1 time in total.

Murugan
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 07 Feb 2013 16:02

Is there any word or term for Grave Diggers/Grave Lovers/Tomb Lovers?

RajeshA
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 07 Feb 2013 16:37

Journal of Near Eastern Studies, Vol. 24, No. 1/2 (Jan. - Apr., 1965), pp. 53-56
Author: E. C. L. During Caspers [Bibliography]

Further Evidence for Cultural Relations between India, Baluchistan, and Iran and Mesopotamia in Early Dynastic Times

Does anyone have access to this paper? It is on jstor.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby johneeG » 07 Feb 2013 19:37

Murugan wrote:In one of the meets arranged by Mumbai University - Numismatics department, one local gentlemen (forgot his name:( talked about Kushans. He was replying to a British 'Expert' on Indian coins who was invited by our great guys to talk about our Kushan coins.

This gentleman hails from Lohana community, kshatriya lohana community to be precise. They call them Raghuvanshi and direct descendants of Lord Ram.

According to him Luv and Kush, two sons of Ram were great conquerors. Lord Ram asked Kush to go westward who might have gone upto the cost of Mediterranean while Luv went upto South China Sea.

The name Kushan is derived from Kush (and not from Yui-Chi the chinese tribes without moustache and beard). This is also apparent from Kushan coins on which the kings are depicted with long dense beards. (Chinese connection of Kushans according to him is not possible because they do not have more than 20 strands of hair each on moustache and beard if there is any)

Some examples of Kushan Kings depicted on their coins:
http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/5807/8745044_1m.jpg

http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/5807/8745043_1m.jpg


Valmiki Ramayana's uttara kanda contains the details about the kingdoms established by the descendents of Lord Sri Rama. Link

The anscestors(starting from Ikshvaku) of Lord Sri Rama ruled Khoshala with Ayodhya as their capital city.

johneeG wrote:From Valmiki Ramayana:
Sri Rama defeated Ravana and established Vibhishana as the sovereign of Lanka. After that, Rama returned to Ayodhya where He was duly coronated. Sri Rama ruled Khoshala with Ayodhya as capital for several years.

Once upon a time, Sri Rama was informed in a private advisory council that certain sections of populace of Ayodhya did not favour Rama's relationship with Sita because She had spent 1yr under the confinement of Ravana who was a notorious womanizer. Sita was pregnant at the time.

Respecting the public sentiment, Sri Rama ordered Lakshmana to abandon Sita on the bank of Ganga near Valmiki hermitage. Lakshmana reluctantly followed the order. Sita Amma was not aware of this situation. She assumed that Her trip to the forest was a short amusement tour.

She came to know of the Rama's decision and people's opinion on the bank of Ganga. Lakshmana informed Her while lamenting that he was helpless in this matter. Lakshmana left Sita Amma on Ganga bank and returned to Ayodhya.

Sita fainted due to sorrow. She was spotted by the Valmiki whose hermitage was near. He recognized Her and offered his ashram as the place of residence for Her. She accepted the offer.

Twins were born to Sita in Valmiki hermitage. They were named by Valmiki as Lava and Kusha. As time passed, Valmiki was also their teacher.

Once upon a time, Narada Maharshi visited Valmiki's hermitage. Valmiki received Narada with due regard and asked him a doubt.

Valmiki enlisted 16 qualities and asked whether there existed any personality on the earth who possessed all the 16 qualities.

kaH nu asmin sa.mpratam loke guNavaan kaH ca viiryavaan |
dharmaj~naH ca kR^itaj~naH ca satya vaakyo dhR^iDha vrataH || 1-1-2
caaritreNa ca ko yuktaH sa.rva bhUteSu ko hitaH |
vidvaan kaH kaH samarthaH ca kaH ca eka priya darshanaH || 1-1-3
aatmavaan ko jita krodho dyutimaan kaH anasuuyakaH |
kasya bibhyati devaaH ca jaata roSasya sa.myuge || 1-1-4

16 qualities are:
01) Gunavaan (possessed of good qualities),
02) Viyavaan (courageous),
03) Dharmajnah (knower of Dharmas),
04) Kritajnah (person with gratitude),
05) Satya vakyo (speaker of Truth),
06) Dridha vratha (committed/determined in his will/deed),
07) Charitra (good Character),
08) Sarva bhuteshu ko hitah (one who is intent on doing good to all beings),
09) Vidvaan (scholar),
10) Samartah (qualified/eligible or one with ability),
11) Eka Priya Darshanah (uniquely handsome),
12) Aatmavan (self-controlled),
13) Jitha krodho (one who has conqured Anger),
14) Dhyutimaan (Radiant),
15) Anaasuuyakah (One who does not find false fauts in others),
16) kasya bibhyati devaah ca jaata rosasya samyuge (One who is feared by even the Gods when His ire is provoked).

Narada replied that Sri Rama of Ikshvaku, ruler of Ayodhya, has all these qualities and more. Narada briefly outlines entire biography of Rama. Then, Narada left.

Valmiki is very impressed by Rama's character and keeps reminiscing about Him. His mind becomes tranquil and he is very happy. He looks at the nature and is filled with joy. He sees a bird couple that are playing with each other. He cheerfully looks at their chirpy play. Suddenly, an arrow hits the male bird. The male bird dies. The female bird cries horrified. Her lamentations evoke pity of Valmiki. Valmiki searches for the one who issued the arrow. He finds a hunter. Promptly, Valmiki curses the hunter.

maa nishhaada pratiSThaamtva | magamaH shaashvatiiH samaaH |
yat krau~Ncha mithunaat eka | mavadhiiH kaama mohitam || 1-2-15

This is the curse of Valmiki. Valmiki, himself, is amazed at the qualities of this stanza that he uttered as a curse. Eg: this stanza has chanda(meter).

Anyway, he retires to his hermitage. The people of Hermitage learn the stanza and tune it to the musical instruments.

Then, Lord Brahma manifests at Valmiki hermitage. Valmiki welcomes Lord Brahma. The Lord tells him that he will author an epic named Ramayana on the life of Sri Rama. That epic, Lord says, will be celebrated till mountains, rivers and woods exist on earth.

The curse of Valmiki is the beginning of Ramayana. Then, Valmiki composes Ramayana. It consists of 7 Units(Kaandas). They are:
1) Bala Kaanda (Youthful Unit),
2) Ayodhya Kaanda
3) Aranya Kaanda (Forest Unit),
4) Kishkinda Kaanda
5) Sundara Kaanda (Beauty Unit),
6) Yuddha Kaanda (War Unit),
7) Uttara Kaanda (Sequel/Answer Unit).

It consists of 24,000 verses.

Valmiki taught Ramayana to his disciples Lava and Kusha(who are also the sons of Sri Rama). Lava and Kusha propagate Ramayana by melodiously singing it wherever people gathered. Once Lord Rama listens to it while they are singing it at a crossroads. Rama invites them to His palace to sing the Ramayana, so that royal family could also listen.

Lava and Kusha start narrating Ramayana...
So, starts the main story of Ramayana.


Meanwhile, rishis from a certain forest area petitioned to Rama for protection from a Rakshasa named Lavana. In Krita Yuga, there was an asura named Madhu, eldest son of Lola. He was a dharmic asura. Pleased with his dharmic conduct Lord Shiva gave him a shula(spear or maybe a trishul/trident). Lord said that no one can defeat the one holding this shula. Madhu requested that the weapon stay within his family even after his death. Lord did not agree to this request but instead told that the weapon(shula) will stay in his family for the next generation i.e. Madhu's son. After that, the weapon will return to Lord. Madhu had established a city named Madhupuri. He married Kumbhinasi. Kumbhinasi is the sister of Kaikasi(mother of Ravana). Lavana was the son of Madhu. So, Ravana and Lavana are cousins(from mother's side). After Madhu departed, his son, Lavana, inherited all the possessions of Madhu(including the invincible shula). With this shula, Lavana became invincible. Lavana, by nature was cruel and took to cannibalism(killing humans and other creatures for food). Lavana was so powerful that he had even defeated Mandata(ancestor of Sri Rama). The rishis wanted Rama to end the menace of Lavana.
Shatrughna, brother of Rama, volunteered for the job. Sri Rama gave him the job and adviced him on how to tackle this Lavanasura. Sri Rama said that Lavana had to be attacked in rainy season, when he would least expect an attack and he must be attacked when he is not in the possession of his invincible shula. Sri Rama also gave a great weapon to his brother to kill Lavana. Following Sri Rama's advice, Shatrughna left for the Madhuvan(forest of Madhu) to slay Lavana. On the way, he spent a day in Valmiki's ashrama. On that very day, Lava and Kusha were born. Shatrughna was pleased to learn the good news, but did not visit the children or Sita amma. He resumed to Madhuvan and killed Lavana with the weapon given by Sri Rama. Lavana was returning from a hunt and was not in possession of the divine shula.

इमां मधुपुरीं रम्यां मधुरां देव निर्मिताम् |
निवेशं प्रप्नुयां शीघ्रमेष मेऽस्तु वरो मतः || ५||

तं देवाः प्रीतमनसो बाढमित्येव राघवम् |
भविष्यति पुरी रम्या शूरसेना न संशयः || ६||

ते तथोक्त्वा महात्मानो दिवमारुरुहुस्तदा |
शत्रुघ्नोऽपि महातेजास्तां सेनां समुपानयत् || ७||

सा सेन शीघ्रमागच्छच्छ्रुत्वा शत्रुघ्नशासनम् |
निवेशनं च शत्रुघ्नः शासनेन समारभत् || ८||

सा पुरी दिव्यसङ्काशा वर्षे द्वादशमे शुभा |
निविष्टा शूरसेनानां विषयश्चाकुतोभयः || ९||

क्षेत्राणि सस्य युक्तानि काले वर्षति वासवः |
अरोगा वीरपुरुषा शत्रुघ्नभुजपालिता || १०||

अर्धचन्द्रप्रतीकाशा यमुनातीरशोभिता |
शोभिता गृहमुख्यैश्च शोभिता चत्वरापणैः || ११||

Link

After killing the Lavana, Shatrughna ruled the Madhupuri(Madhuvan) and re-established a city there. It came to be known as Mathura. It was situated at the bank of Yamuna. It took 12 years for Shatrughna to re-establish the city.

Later, Sri Rama wanted to redeem the situation of Sita amma. So, on the pretext of performing an Yagya, He assembled His entire subjects, allies and rishis. Sri Rama wanted Sita amma to prove Her chastity in this assembly once and for all, so that none can cast an aspersion on Her ever again. Sri Rama Himself had no doubt about the lofty character of His wife, but He believed that as a King He had to live an unblemished life to remain the role-model for the public. Sri Rama asked Valmiki, if Sita amma would undertake such a task. Valmiki replied that Sita amma would do it for the sake of Her husband only.

So, on a certain day, it was decided that Sita amma would come into the assembly and prove Her chastity. Sita amma came and announced that if She has never thought of any other man but Sri Rama, then may the earth take Her in. Promptly, Sita amma vanished into earth. All the people witnessing it were bewildered. Soon, loud lamentations started. Sita amma's departure into earth was as miraculous as Her manifestation(birth) from earth. Finally, Sri Rama consoled Himself. He took charge of His children, Lava and Kusha.

After that, Lord Rama also started to prepare for the eventual departure.

हतेषु तेषु वीरेषु भरतः कैकयीसुतः |
निवेशयामास तदा समृद्धे द्वे पुरोत्तमे |
तक्षं तक्षशिलायां तु पुष्करं पुष्करावतौ || ९||

गन्धर्वदेशो रुचिरो गान्धारविषयश्च सः |
वर्षैः पञ्चभिराकीर्णो विषयैर्नागरैस्तथा || १०||

धनरत्नौघसम्पूर्णो काननैरुपशोभिते |
अन्योन्यसङ्घर्षकृते स्पर्धया गुणविस्तरे || ११||

उभे सुरुचिरप्रख्ये व्यवहारैरकल्मषैः |
उद्यानयानौघवृते सुविभक्तान्तरापणे || १२||
Link

Bharata's maternal uncle, Yudhajith, was the ruler of Kekeya. To the north of Kekeya, the place was ruled by Gandharvas. Bharata, with the help of Yudhajith, defeated the Gandharvas and established two cities for his two sons. The sons of Bharata were: Taksha and Pushkala. The two cities they ruled were Takshashila(greek: Taxila) and Pushkalavati(greek: Peukelaotis) respectively.

Image

It may be possible that 'Gandhara' is a derivative of the word 'Gandharva' because the originally Gandharvas used to live there.

तच्छ्रुत्वा हर्षमापेदे राघवो भ्रातृभिः सह |
वाक्यं चाद्भुतसङ्काशं भ्रातॄन्प्रोवाच राघवः || १||

इमौ कुमारौ सौमित्रे तव धर्मविशारदौ |
अङ्गदश्चन्द्रकेतुश्च राज्यार्हौ दृढधन्विनौ || २||

इमौ राज्येऽभिषेक्ष्यामि देशः साधु विधीयताम् |
रमणीयो ह्यसम्बाधो रमेतां यत्र धन्विनौ || ३||

न राज्ञां यत्र पीदा स्यान्नाश्रमाणां विनाशनम् |
स देशो दृश्यतां सौम्य नापराध्यामहे यथा || ४||

तथोक्तवति रामे तु भरतः प्रत्युवाच ह |
अयं कारापथो देशः सुरमण्यो निरामयः || ५||

निवेश्यतां तत्र पुरमङ्गदस्य महात्मनः |
चन्द्रकेतोश्च रुचिरं चन्द्रकान्तं निरामयम् || ६||

तद्वाक्यं भरतेनोक्तं प्रतिजग्राह राघवः |
तं च कृता वशे देशमङ्गदस्य न्यवेशयत् || ७||

अङ्गदीया पुरी रम्या अङ्गदस्य निवेशिता |
रमणीया सुगुप्ता च रामेणाक्लिष्टकर्मणा || ८||

चन्द्रकेतुस्तु मल्लस्य मल्लभूम्यां निवेशिता |
चन्द्रकान्तेति विख्याता दिव्या स्वर्गपुरी यथा || ९||

ततो रामः परां प्रीतिं भरतो लक्ष्मणस्तथा |
ययुर्युधि दुराधर्षा अभिषेकं च चक्रिरे || १०||

अभिषिच्य कुमारौ द्वौ प्रस्थाप्य सबलानुगौ |
अङ्गदं पश्चिमा भूमिं चन्द्रकेतुमुदङ्मुखम् || ११||

अङ्गदं चापि सौमित्रिर्लक्ष्मणोऽनुजगाम ह |
चन्द्रकेतोस्तु भरतः पार्ष्णिग्राहो बभूव ह || १२||
Link

Then, Bharata came to Ayodhya and related the news to Sri Rama and Lakshmana. Both were happy to know about it. Sri Rama wanted to settle the sons of Lakshmana also and wanted a suitable place to be searched for the same. Bharata suggested the two places.

The sons of Lakshmana were called: Angada and Chandraketu. The places suggested by Bharata were brought under subjection. Then, Angada was made a ruler of Karapatha(don't know about its location). And Chandraketu was made the ruler of Chandrakanta in Malla region. It seems Malla is a janapada of ancient India. Wiki Link. It seems Angada went westward and Chandraketu Northward. So, Karapatha was to the west of Ayodhya and Chandrakanta(Malla region) was to the north of Ayodhya. The wiki map seems to be slightly wrong because Malla region must be more norther, approx. western Nepal and Uttarakhand region.

Then, Lakshmana spent an year in Angada's city and Bharata spent more than a year in Chandrakanta to help the youngsters to setup the Kingdoms. After that, both Lakshmana and Bharata returned to Ayodhya.

Later, Lakshmana had to give up his life in Sarayu river(flowing westwards). After that, Sri Rama also decided to give up His mortal coil. He asked Bharata to take up the Kingship. Bharata was not inclined to live without Sri Rama. Most(if not all) the populace of Ayodhya was also disinclined to live without Sri Rama. So, Bharata suggested that new cities/kingdoms be setup with Lava and Kusha as the rulers.

इमौ कुशीलवौ राजन्नभिषिञ्च नराधिप |
कोसलेषु कुशं वीरमुत्तरेषु तथा लवम् || ७||
Link

कुशस्य नगरी रम्या विन्ध्यपर्वतरोधसि |
कुशावतीति नाम्ना सा कृता रामेण धीमता || ४||

श्राविता च पुरी रम्या श्रावतीति लवस्य च |
अयोध्यां विजनां चैव भरतं राघवानुगम् || ५||
Link

So, Kusha was made the ruler of Kushavati and Lava was made the ruler of Shravita/Shravanti. Kushavati is in the region of Vindhya mountains. Kushvati is identified as Kushinara. Shravita/Shravati has been identified as Shravasti.

Image

It was decided that all the people of Ayodhya(including Bharata) would follow Sri Rama's lead and give up their lives. The news was sent to Shatrughna in Mathura.

ततः पुत्रद्वयं वीरः सोऽभ्यषिञ्चन्नराधिपः |
सुबाहुर्मधुरां लेभे शत्रुघाती च वैदिशम् || ९||

द्विधाकृत्वा तु तां सेनां माधुरीं पुत्रयोर्द्वयोः |
धनधान्यसमायुक्तौ स्थापयामास पार्थिवौ || १०||

ततो विसृज्य राजानं वैदिशे शत्रुघातिनम् |
जगाम त्वरितोऽयोध्यां रथेनैकेन राघवः || ११||
Link

Shatrughna had two sons: Subahu and Shatrughati. Shatrughna crowned his elder son, Subahu, as the King of Mathura. Then, Shatrughati was made the King of Vidisha. Then, Shatrughna came to Ayodhya and requested Rama to be allowed to accompany Him in the final journey. Sri Rama accented.

Image

This news was sent to the allies: Vibhishana and Sugriva. They came to Ayodhya with their followers. Most of the Vanaras(including Sugriva) decided to join Sri Rama in His decision. Sugriva crowned Angada(son of Vali) as the King of Kishkinda. Only few people decided to stay back. Hanuman and Jambavan were among those who stayed back.

All the others accompanied Sri Rama. They went in an elaborate procession, led by brahmins chantining Vedas, into Sarayu. Ayodhya was depopulated.

Later, Buddhists claim that Buddha was born in Ikshvaku dynasty (in Mathura, I think). After Ayodhya, Mathura became the powerful city. Most of the above cities are linked to Buddhism. It is natural because these were the prominent cities when Buddhism was waxing.

Wiki:
Kushinagar or Kusinara. It is an important Buddhist pilgrimage site, where Gautama Buddha have attained Parinirvana after his death.


Shravasti, the north-eastern town of Uttar Pradesh, is located near the West Rapti River. This town is closely associated with the life of Gautama Buddha, who is believed to have spent 24 Chaturmases here. Age-old stupas, majestic viharas and several temples near the village of "Sahet-Mahet" establish Buddha's association with Shravasti. It is being said that the Vedic Bharat period king Sravast founded this town. Shravasti was the capital of the Kosala Kingdom during 6th century BC to 6th century AD. This prosperous trading center was well known for its religious associations. Sobhanath temple is believed to be the birthplace of the Tirthankara Sambhavanath in Jainism, making Shravasti an important center for Jains. According to Nagarjuna, the city had a population of 900,000 in 5th century BCE and it even overshadowed Magadha's capital, Rajgir.


Pushkalavati (modern-day Charsadda) is an ancient site situated in Peshawar valley in the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province (formerly NWFP) of Pakistan. It is located on the banks of Swat River, near its junction with Kabul River. Pushkalavati meaning Lotus City was the capital of ancient kingdom Gandhara from the 6th century BC to 2nd century AD.

The ruins of Pushkalavati consist of many stupas and sites of two old cities.


Taxila (Sanskrit: तक्षशिला) is a town and an important archaeological site in the Rawalpindi District of the Punjab province in Pakistan. Taxila is situated about 32 km (20 mi) northwest of Islamabad Capital Territory and Rawalpindi in Punjab. It was a part of India before Pakistan came into being after partition of India.

The city dates back to the Gandhara period and contains the ruins of the Gandhāran city of Takṣaśilā which was an important Hindu and Buddhist centre, and is still considered a place of religious and historical sanctity in those traditions. In 1980, Taxila was declared a UNESCO World Heritage Site with multiple locations.
...
Scattered references in later works indicate that Takshashila may have dated back to at least the 5th century BCE.[3][4][5] Takṣaśilā is reputed to derive its name from Takṣa, who was the son of Bharata, the brother of Rama, and Mandavi.[6] Legend has it that Takṣa ruled a kingdom called Takṣa Khanda, and founded the city of Takṣaśilā.[7] According to another theory propounded by Damodar Dharmanand Kosambi, Takṣaśilā is related to Takṣaka, Sanskrit for "carpenter", and is an alternative name for the Nāgas of ancient India.[8]

In the Great Hindu Epic Mahābhārata, the Kuru heir Parikṣit was enthroned at Takṣaśilā.[9] Traditionally, it is believed that the Mahabharata was first recited at Takṣaśilā by Vaishampayana, a disciple of Vyasa at the behest of the seer Vyasa himself, at the Sarpa Satra Yajna (Snake Sacrifice) of Parikṣit's son Janamejaya.[10]

Takshashila is also described in some detail in later Jātaka tales, written in Sri Lanka around the 5th century.[11] The Chinese monk Faxian (also called Fa-Hien) writing of his visit to Taxila in 405 CE, mentions the kingdom of Takshasila (or Chu-cha-shi-lo) meaning "the severed Head". He says that this name was derived from an event in the life of Buddha because this is the place "where he gave his head to a man".[12] Xuanzang (also called Hieun Tsang), another Chinese monk, visited Taxila in 630 and in 643, and he called the city as Ta-Cha-Shi-Lo. The city appears to have already been in ruins by his time. Taxila is called Taxiala in Ptolemy’s Geography.[13] In the Historia Trium Regum (History of the Three Kings) composed by John of Hildesheim around 1375, the city is called Egrisilla.[14]



Malla was one of the solasa (16) mahajanapadas of ancient India mentioned in the Anguttara Nikaya. It was named after the ruling clan of the same name. The Mahabharata (VI.9.34) mentions the territory as the Mallarashtra (Malla state). The Malla mahajanapada was situated north of Magadha. It was a small mahajanapada. The mahajanapada was divided into two main parts and the river Kakuttha (present day Kuku) was probably the dividing line. The capital of these two parts were Kusavati or Kuśināra (modern Kasia near Gorakhpur) and Pāvā, modern Fazilnagar, 12 miles from Kasia).[1] Kuśināra and Pava are very important in the history of Buddhism since Buddha took his last meal and was taken ill at Pava and went to his Mahāparinirvāṇa at Kuśināra.

The Mallas were a powerful clan of eastern India[2] at the time of Gautama Buddha and they are frequently mentioned in Buddhist and Jaina works. The Mahabharata (II.30.3) mentions that the second Pandava Bhima is said to have conquered the chief of the Mallas in course of his expedition to eastern India. The Mahabharata (VI.9.46) mentions Mallas along with the Angas, Vangas, and Kalingas as eastern tribes.[2] The Mallas were republican people with their dominion consisting of nine territories (Kalpa Sutra; Nirayavali Sutra), one of each of the nine confederated clans.


Is there any connection between these Mallas and Mala caste of AP? Also Mallayoddhas(wrestlers) are mentioned in MB and Puranas. One of the Mallayoddhas defeated by Sri Krishna, Chanura, is from Andhra.

johneeG wrote:There is a theory that Mala caste of Andhra Pradesh came from the Mallas(wrestlers). It seems in medieval time, Malas were mercenary fighters, sometimes rising to the level of a 'commander'.

From Wiki:
According to researchers like Ambedkar, the Mahars and similar communities like Malas were actually warriors of some defeated kingdom, they were pushed down in social status,they were disarmed but retained as village servants.

Mala caste has got prominence during the period of Palanati Bramha Naidu (Prime Minister to Nalagam King of Macherla) (1170 to 1180 AD). The Mala Warrior Mala Kannamadasu was the first Senapathi in the history along with Kammas, Velamas and Reddies in those days.



---
I have read many articles trying to link Lava and Kusha to all and sundry(from Lahore to Egypt). But, such linkanges seem to be bogus. All the descendents of Sri Rama seem to have ruled only in India(the larger India, not the truncated modern-day India).

It is possible that Kushans may have claimed to be related to Kusha, thereby Ikshvaku dynasty(linking them to both Buddha and Sri Rama). They may have claimed so. But, such a claim may be bogus.

Murugan wrote:Is it possible that the word Abraham has some connection with the sanskrit word Abhiram?!

अभिराम m. Name of śiva
अभिराम mf( ā )n. pleasing, delightful, agreeable, beautiful
अभिरामम् ind. referring to rāma .


Saar,
Abraham-Sarah are related to Brahma-Saraswati. Even Zakeer Naik has latched onto this, because it is quite obvious. But, the question is: how to interpret this connection? What caused this connection? Who copied from whom?

Did Indian/Hindus copy from Judaism? Did Hindu even know about the existence of Jews? Or Did jews copy from Hindus?

Other obvious connections are:
Adam and Eve is a copy of Swambhuva Manu and Shatarupa.
Noah and his ark is a copy of Vaivasvata Manu.

ramana wrote:
Not really. Its shows "baptism", "being born again' etc are Hindu customs. So the Southern Baptists neeed to rethink their customs or live as Hindoos.


Not just 'baptism', but also 'eucharist'(or 'holy communion') is a mix of Hindu(teertha-prasada) and Jewish(human sacrifice).

The Hindu part may have been transmitted through Buddhism. I have come to the view that, in the west, Buddhism's hotbed crete. And for a longtime. Ultimately, the places around the crete started acquiring Buddhism(various strands of Buddhism). Egypt was one of the important centers from where Buddhism was spread to other western parts. It seems to me that, for a long time, Buddhism was trying to enter Rome through Egypt(atleast, from the time of Cleopatra). Finally, it succeeded at the time of Constantine.

But, it seems somewhere between this period, the connection with India was lost. I am unable to understand why? Were the sea-routes cut-off? Were there social upheavals in India? I think this was the time when Buddhism was on top in India. So, I am tending towards sea-routes being cut-off.

RajeshA wrote:Nilesh Oak ji, johneeG ji,

the theory was that in the early Mandalas even though they were "heard" in the East first (let's say Western/Central UP) and the rivers were named from that region in those Mandalas e.g. I believe Mandala V, how come there was no mention of the Yamuna, and I said that was because at that time Yamuna still flowed in the West.


I didn't know about this theory...
When did Yamuna flow in the west and when did it change course?

Is this theory accepted by the traditional schools?

RajeshA wrote:As far as the later Mandalas are concerned there is indeed mention of the Yamuna. I can't remember if Yamuna has already changed its flow in the late Mandalas or not.

Saraswati must have dried some time after first Yamuna turned East and Satluj turned West. I had thought that as Rig Veda speaks of Saraswati as the mighty river, Rann of Kutch must have appeared much later.

At the time of MB and Ved Vyas, that is somewhat later, there is of course evidence that Saraswati was not visible at places.

So I would say that the 'Irina' references in the Vedas could be from time before Rann of Kutch appeared, and as such refers to Iran.

We must also remember that Iran was not so expansive to its West as it is today.

So if we go by this theory, then the references to Irina refer to Iran, and Iran does not come from Arya/Aryan (Noble) but rather from Irina (salty/barren/desert).

But again it is just a theory!


Saar ji,
one must be careful here.
There are two ways here:
a) One could say that Iran acquired its name from 'irina' is sanskrit.
b) One could say that 'irina' refers to Iran.

Option (a) is reasonable. Option (b) is unreasonable and counter-productive to OIT.

Anyway, it seems the region of modern-day Iran was known as Kambhoja. There is a theory that some of the people of Kambhoja migrated to east and settle in Cambodia(Kambhoja).

RajeshA
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 07 Feb 2013 20:45

johneeG wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Nilesh Oak ji, johneeG ji,

the theory was that in the early Mandalas even though they were "heard" in the East first (let's say Western/Central UP) and the rivers were named from that region in those Mandalas e.g. I believe Mandala V, how come there was no mention of the Yamuna, and I said that was because at that time Yamuna still flowed in the West.


I didn't know about this theory...
When did Yamuna flow in the west and when did it change course?

Is this theory accepted by the traditional schools?


Wiki article based on "Encyclopedia of Indian Archaeology" and Subhash Kak and David Frawley's books says:

Wikipedia wrote:There is evidence indicating Yamuna was a tributary of the Ghaggar river, also known as the Vedic Sarasvati River in the ancient past and the rivers were collectively known as Sapta Sindhu or seven streams. It changed its course to east following a tectonic event in north India and became a tributary of the Ganges instead. As the it is believed that the Sarasvati river dried and it also meant the end of many Indus Valley civilization settlements, and creation of the Thar desert, the Ghaggar-Hakra river now flows only during the monsoon season.


The timing of change of course is based on a paper referred to by ManishH earlier.

Geology, published online on 23 January 2012

U-Pb zircon dating evidence for a Pleistocene Sarasvati River and capture of the Yamuna River
Authors: Peter D. Clift¹, Andrew Carter², Liviu Giosan³, Julie Durcan⁴, Geoff A.T. Duller⁴, Mark G. Macklin⁴, Anwar Alizai⁵, Ali R. Tabrez⁶, Mohammed Danish⁶, Sam VanLaningham⁷, and Dorian Q. Fuller⁸

¹ School of Geosciences, University of Aberdeen, Aberdeen AB24 3UE, UK, and Key Laboratory of the Marginal Sea Geology,
South China Sea Institute of Oceanology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, 164 Xingangxi Road, Guangzhou 510301, China
² Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences, Birkbeck College London, Malet Street, London WC1E 7HX, UK
³ Department of Geology and Geophysics, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, Woods Hole, Massachusetts 02543, USA
⁴ Institute of Geography and Earth Sciences, Aberystwyth University, Aberystwyth SY23 3DB, UK
⁵ Geological Survey of Pakistan, Block 2, Gulistan e Jauhar, Karachi, Pakistan
⁶ National Institute for Oceanography, Clifton, Karachi 75600, Pakistan
⁷ School of Fisheries and Ocean Sciences, University of Alaska, Fairbanks, Alaska 99775-7220, USA
⁸ Institute of Archaeology, University College London, 31–34 Gordon Square, London WC1H 0PY, UK

Abstract
The Harappan Culture, one of the oldest known urban civilizations, thrived on the northwest edge of the Thar Desert (India and Pakistan) between 3200 and 1900 BCE. Its demise has been linked to rapid weakening of the summer monsoon at this time, yet reorganization of rivers may also have played a role. We sampled subsurface channel sand bodies predating ca. 4.0 ka and used U-Pb dating of zircon sand grains to constrain their provenance through comparison with the established character of modern river sands. Samples from close to archaeological sites to the north of the desert show little affinity with the Ghaggar-Hakra, the presumed source of the channels. Instead, we see at least two groups of sediments, showing similarities both to the Beas River in the west and to the Yamuna and Sutlej Rivers in the east. The channels were active until after 4.5 ka and were covered by dunes before 1.4 ka, although loss of the Yamuna from the Indus likely occurred as early as 49 ka and no later than 10 ka. Capture of the Yamuna to the east and the Sutlej to the north rerouted water away from the area of the Harappan centers, but this change significantly predated their final collapse.

johneeG wrote:
RajeshA wrote:As far as the later Mandalas are concerned there is indeed mention of the Yamuna. I can't remember if Yamuna has already changed its flow in the late Mandalas or not.

Saraswati must have dried some time after first Yamuna turned East and Satluj turned West. I had thought that as Rig Veda speaks of Saraswati as the mighty river, Rann of Kutch must have appeared much later.

At the time of MB and Ved Vyas, that is somewhat later, there is of course evidence that Saraswati was not visible at places.

So I would say that the 'Irina' references in the Vedas could be from time before Rann of Kutch appeared, and as such refers to Iran.

We must also remember that Iran was not so expansive to its West as it is today.

So if we go by this theory, then the references to Irina refer to Iran, and Iran does not come from Arya/Aryan (Noble) but rather from Irina (salty/barren/desert).

But again it is just a theory!


Saar ji,
one must be careful here.
There are two ways here:
a) One could say that Iran acquired its name from 'irina' is sanskrit.
b) One could say that 'irina' refers to Iran.

Option (a) is reasonable. Option (b) is unreasonable and counter-productive to OIT.


The above suggestion was in continuation to an idea of Carl ji.

Why is (b) unreasonable and counter-productive? The deserts today referred to Dasht-e-Kavir and Dasht-e-Lut which lie in Eastern Iran are indeed salty, barren deserts.

When Ancient Indians used to refer to those places, they could have used the term 'irina'. The Iranians then started referring to themselves that way as well.

Or Iranians themselves could speak Sanskrit and by your case (a), they started referring to themselves as 'airaNa' or 'iraaNa' or something similar!

Regardless of whether we gave them this name and they started using it by themselves based on the Sanskrit word 'iraNa' (इरण), it still supports the case that the way the Iranians use it does not mean Sanskrit word 'Arya' as we use it (Noble). If that is the case, than the whole case of "Aryans" as a ethnicity falls flat.

johneeG wrote:Anyway, it seems the region of modern-day Iran was known as Kambhoja. There is a theory that some of the people of Kambhoja migrated to east and settle in Cambodia(Kambhoja).


The Iranic tribes used to live far closer to the East earlier (around Eastern Afghanistan) before they moved Westwards.

Nilesh Oak
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 08 Feb 2013 02:58

Half a million year old huominin jawbone...


http://www.livescience.com/26916-serbia ... vered.html

RajeshA
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Posts: 15995
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 08 Feb 2013 20:06

Murugan wrote:Kafir and Kafiristan etymologically derived from Kapisa(?)


Murugan ji,

The "scholars" have placed the etymology of Arabic Kāfir to "one who hides or covers [the truth]", and the claim is that it is cognate with the Hebrew "kipper," and "kofer".

Etymology

The word kāfir is the active participle of the root K-F-R "to cover". As a pre-Islamic term it described farmers burying seeds in the ground, covering them with soil while planting. Thus, the word kāfir implies the meaning a person who hides or covers." According to Oxford Dictionary of Islam the word 'Kafir' means: 'Unbeliever. First applied to Meccans who refused submission to Islam, the term implies an active rejection of divine revelation. In Islamic parlance, a kāfir is a word used to describe a person who rejects Islamic faith, i.e. "hides or covers [viz., the truth]."'

"Kafara," which shares the Arabic root K-F-R with "kafir," means to "disbelieve," and also to be "thankless," "ungrateful," "disown," or "deny."

The Hebrew words, "kipper," and "kofer", share the same root as "kafir" כִּפֵּר, or K-F-R. "Kipper" has many meanings including, to "atone for," "cover," "purge," or "represent" or "transfer." The last two meanings involve, "kofer" which mean "ransom." "Kipper" and "kofer" are mostly likely used together in the Jewish faith to indicate God's transfer of guilt from innocent parties using guilty parties as "ransom".


In fact we have the Hindi word "कपड़ा" which also means covering, clothing. So in which direction did the word and meaning travel?

On the other hand the meaning of Kafir/Kafara as a disbeliever, could have come from Kafirstan. Since the word has a pre-Islamic root, that means the use of the word "disbeliever" too would have been from a pre-Islamic perspective.

Now the Kafirstanis could have been termed disbelievers either from the Zoroastrian perspective or even from the Hindu perspective. If the land was taken over by Pishaca people, then even the Hindus would have called them "disbelievers" [in the Vedic order], or the Zoroastrians, like say Cyrus, who destroyed their city, could have called them "disbelievers" [in Zarathustra], e.g. if the people were too Hindu for the Zoroastrian way. The Zoroastrian perspective would have been taken over in Judaism, and later into Islam.

So there are many possibilities, but the origins of Kafir could indirectly be Kapisa.

Nilesh Oak
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 08 Feb 2013 20:40

RajeshA wrote:
Murugan wrote:Kafir and Kafiristan etymologically derived from Kapisa(?)


Murugan ji,

The "scholars" have placed the etymology of Arabic Kāfir to "one who hides or covers [the truth]", and the claim is that it is cognate with the Hebrew "kipper," and "kofer".

Etymology

The word kāfir is the active participle of the root K-F-R "to cover". As a pre-Islamic term it described farmers burying seeds in the ground, covering them with soil while planting. Thus, the word kāfir implies the meaning a person who hides or covers." According to Oxford Dictionary of Islam the word 'Kafir' means: 'Unbeliever. First applied to Meccans who refused submission to Islam, the term implies an active rejection of divine revelation. In Islamic parlance, a kāfir is a word used to describe a person who rejects Islamic faith, i.e. "hides or covers [viz., the truth]."'

"Kafara," which shares the Arabic root K-F-R with "kafir," means to "disbelieve," and also to be "thankless," "ungrateful," "disown," or "deny."

The Hebrew words, "kipper," and "kofer", share the same root as "kafir" כִּפֵּר, or K-F-R. "Kipper" has many meanings including, to "atone for," "cover," "purge," or "represent" or "transfer." The last two meanings involve, "kofer" which mean "ransom." "Kipper" and "kofer" are mostly likely used together in the Jewish faith to indicate God's transfer of guilt from innocent parties using guilty parties as "ransom".


In fact we have the Hindi word "कपड़ा" which also means covering, clothing. So in which direction did the word and meaning travel?

On the other hand the meaning of Kafir/Kafara as a disbeliever, could have come from Kafirstan. Since the word has a pre-Islamic root, that means the use of the word "disbeliever" too would have been from a pre-Islamic perspective.

Now the Kafirstanis could have been termed disbelievers either from the Zoroastrian perspective or even from the Hindu perspective. If the land was taken over by Pishaca people, then even the Hindus would have called them "disbelievers" [in the Vedic order], or the Zoroastrians, like say Cyrus, who destroyed their city, could have called them "disbelievers" [in Zarathustra], e.g. if the people were too Hindu for the Zoroastrian way. The Zoroastrian perspective would have been taken over in Judaism, and later into Islam.

So there are many possibilities, but the origins of Kafir could indirectly be Kapisa.

I have researched the subject of cotton (from ancient Indian angle) for at least 9 years... since the subject came, I will add few quick references for enthusiastic among Gurujan to follow, research and develop further.

Briefly.. you may begin with wiki Chacha (don't trust everything...std. disclaimer)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton

Vinoba has conjectured that word 'Gossypium ' typically used in stating seed variety of cotton (thus original word for cotton) was derived from 'Grihadsmad' (one of the seers of Rigveda...if my memory serves correct.. he shows illustration of multiplication tables).

Now before Trolls run amok...let me warn them that above conjecture is not based on flimsy ground and I have collected enormous evidence for it, since then.
-----------
Vinoba also mentions that Grihastmad was from "Yavatmal - (Central India- Near Nagpur). I do not know the refernces behind his assertion. I mention the location.. since Grihadsmad was 'Vinakar' (weaver.. not Binkar .. in the sense of Veena/Beena Player...although similarity in their act is worth noticing!) and he was also writer of certain suktas of Rigveda....and so if he was from central India.. that would be rare/first reference of one of the contributor of Rigveda from southernmost point so far.
----------
I hope gurujan and seekers find this useful...

Lage Raho....

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 08 Feb 2013 22:45

The weavers are known as Banakar or Vanakar

Hindi
Bunana - to weave - Banakar

Gujarati
Vanavu - to Weave - Vanakar

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby johneeG » 08 Feb 2013 23:37

RajeshA wrote:
Murugan wrote:Kafir and Kafiristan etymologically derived from Kapisa(?)


Murugan ji,

The "scholars" have placed the etymology of Arabic Kāfir to "one who hides or covers [the truth]", and the claim is that it is cognate with the Hebrew "kipper," and "kofer".

Etymology

The word kāfir is the active participle of the root K-F-R "to cover". As a pre-Islamic term it described farmers burying seeds in the ground, covering them with soil while planting. Thus, the word kāfir implies the meaning a person who hides or covers." According to Oxford Dictionary of Islam the word 'Kafir' means: 'Unbeliever. First applied to Meccans who refused submission to Islam, the term implies an active rejection of divine revelation. In Islamic parlance, a kāfir is a word used to describe a person who rejects Islamic faith, i.e. "hides or covers [viz., the truth]."'

"Kafara," which shares the Arabic root K-F-R with "kafir," means to "disbelieve," and also to be "thankless," "ungrateful," "disown," or "deny."

The Hebrew words, "kipper," and "kofer", share the same root as "kafir" כִּפֵּר, or K-F-R. "Kipper" has many meanings including, to "atone for," "cover," "purge," or "represent" or "transfer." The last two meanings involve, "kofer" which mean "ransom." "Kipper" and "kofer" are mostly likely used together in the Jewish faith to indicate God's transfer of guilt from innocent parties using guilty parties as "ransom".


In fact we have the Hindi word "कपड़ा" which also means covering, clothing. So in which direction did the word and meaning travel?



It seems the word कपाल also means cover in Sanskrit.
Also, in Telugu, 'kapputa' or 'kappadam' means covering.

Don't know whether it is connected to Kafir or not. But certainly the words
कपाल in Sanskrit,
कपड़ा in Hindi and
'kapputa' or 'kappadam' in Telugu
seem to be related to each other.

RajeshA wrote:
johneeG wrote:Saar ji,
one must be careful here.
There are two ways here:
a) One could say that Iran acquired its name from 'irina' is sanskrit.
b) One could say that 'irina' refers to Iran.

Option (a) is reasonable. Option (b) is unreasonable and counter-productive to OIT.


The above suggestion was in continuation to an idea of Carl ji.

Why is (b) unreasonable and counter-productive? The deserts today referred to Dasht-e-Kavir and Dasht-e-Lut which lie in Eastern Iran are indeed salty, barren deserts.

When Ancient Indians used to refer to those places, they could have used the term 'irina'. The Iranians then started referring to themselves that way as well.

Or Iranians themselves could speak Sanskrit and by your case (a), they started referring to themselves as 'airaNa' or 'iraaNa' or something similar!

Regardless of whether we gave them this name and they started using it by themselves based on the Sanskrit word 'iraNa' (इरण), it still supports the case that the way the Iranians use it does not mean Sanskrit word 'Arya' as we use it (Noble). If that is the case, than the whole case of "Aryans" as a ethnicity falls flat.


I did not put the option (b) properly. Sorry.

I wanted to say that there are two ways:
a) One could say that Iran acquired its name from 'irina' is sanskrit.
b) One could say that whenever the word 'irina' is mentioned in Hindu scriptures(including Vedas), it refers to Iran.

Option (a) is reasonable. Option (b) is unreasonable and counter-productive to OIT.

Option (b) seems unreasonable because
1) It assumes that Indian scriptures(particularly Vedas) are recording human history. And there is no basis for this assumption. All the accounts in Vedas may be fictional or allegory or maybe not. But, one cannot just assume that they are historical accounts when neither Vedas, nor the traditions associated with them claim to be historical accounts.
2) It assumes that the region 'Iran' was called Iran from the time of manifestation of Vedas.
3) It assumes that the terms like 'salty/barren'('irina') are nouns rather than adjectives. 'Irina' is a generic term for any salty/barren land. It can apply to any barren land. But, to claim that they are referring to a particular place only would be unreasonable.

It is counter-productive to OIT because it will be followed up with theories like the following:

Irinam was the original home of 'Vedic people'. At that time, it was green and nice. Then, some disaster happened and 'Vedic people' moved away from Irinam. Irinam is seen as positive in RV. But, it acquires negative canotations later in other Vedas. It is at this time, when Irinam comes to be associated with salty/barren.

This is the theory of R N Iyengar. He wants to identify Runn of Kutch as 'Irinam' that is being mentioned by RV. If instead of Runn of Kutch, Iran is accepted as 'Irinam that is being mentioned in RV, then according to his theory, 'Vedic people' were originally inhabitants of Iran(not India).

RajeshA wrote:
johneeG wrote:Anyway, it seems the region of modern-day Iran was known as Kambhoja. There is a theory that some of the people of Kambhoja migrated to east and settle in Cambodia(Kambhoja).


The Iranic tribes used to live far closer to the East earlier (around Eastern Afghanistan) before they moved Westwards.


Kambhoja is also a bit east-ward. Actually, it seems, there are two Kambhojas, a slightly eastern one and a further western one(perhaps, after the migration).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 09 Feb 2013 01:03


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 09 Feb 2013 04:19

India & Mexico (My Friend Uschi Ringleb's contriubtion.. who is also very active in researching India-Polynesia connection)
----------------------

Maya Multilinguals?

January 19, 2009 by mayoid


by Stephen Houston

The story of Malinche tells us that, in some places, at some times, Mesoamericans spoke several languages: Malinche’s control of Nahuatl and Chontal [Acalan] Maya (and eventually Spanish) provided the conquistadores with essential information in their wild journey to dominance.

Malinche’s tale leads me in turn to reflect on what the Maya called their languages. The Paxbolon papers in Acalan refer to t’an [than] when describing the sum totality of a language (Smailus 1975:173), a term found across the Maya lowlands, including colonial Yukatek (Cuidad Real 2001:559) and as reconstructed in Kaufman and Norman’s valuable study of proto-Ch’olan (1984:133)[Note 1].
------------------
Here is Uschi taking the word 'tan' (than) and checking against Sanskrit root.

in the above link about the Maya it asks what "language" means ( in the chapter "Maya multilinguals ?")
The Maya explained it was "t'an" ( than ) .
Steve Houston writes : "T’an represents the essence of what it was to be human."

Now look at Sanskrit : than , tan ( I entered "than " into the search field ; Sanskrit >>>>into English ):

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?scri ... rection=SE

tanoti ( tan) = speak, put forth, , display , compose , prepare, show, augment, etc. etc..

tan = continuation, offspring, posterity, propagation, uninterrupted succession !
------
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?scri ... rection=SE

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_23686 » 10 Feb 2013 20:14

oh look what they found

http://www.theartnewspaper.com/articles/Ice-Age-iLion-Mani-is-worlds-earliest-figurative-sculpture/28595

Ice Age Lion Man is world’s earliest figurative sculpture
Work carved from mammoth ivory has been redated and 1,000 new fragments discovered—but it won’t make it to British Museum show

By Martin Bailey. Web only
Published online: 31 January 2013

40,000 years old: Lion Man sculpture. Photo: Thomas Stephan, © Ulmer Museum

The star exhibit initially promised for the British Museum’s “Ice Age Art” show will not be coming—but for a good reason. New pieces of Ulm’s Lion Man sculpture have been discovered and it has been found to be much older than originally thought, at around 40,000 years. This makes it the world’s earliest figurative sculpture. At the London exhibition, which opens on 7 February, a replica from the Ulm Museum will instead go on display.

The story of the discovery of the Lion Man goes back to August 1939, when fragments of mammoth ivory were excavated at the back of the Stadel Cave in the Swabian Alps, south-west Germany. This was a few days before the outbreak of the Second World War. When it was eventually reassembled in 1970, it was regarded as a standing bear or big cat, but with human characteristics.

The ivory from which the figure had been carved had broken into myriad fragments. When first reconstructed, around 200 pieces were incorporated into the 30cm-tall sculpture, with about 30% of its volume missing.

Further fragments were later found among the previously excavated material and these were added to the figure in 1989. At this point, the sculpture was recognised as representing a lion. Most specialists have regarded it as male, although paleontologist Elisabeth Schmid controversially argued that it was female, suggesting that early society might have been matriarchal.

The latest news is that almost 1,000 further fragments of the statue have been found, following recent excavations in the Stadel Cave by Claus-Joachim Kind. Most of these are minute, but a few are several centimetres long. Some of the larger pieces are now being reintegrated into the figure.

Conservators have removed the 20th-century glue and filler from the 1989 reconstruction, and are now painstakingly reassembling the Lion Man, using computer-imaging techniques. “It is an enormous 3D puzzle”, says the British Museum curator Jill Cook.

The new reconstruction will give a much better idea of the original. In particular, the back of the neck will be more accurate, the right arm will be more complete and the figure will be a few centimetres taller.

An imaginative sculptor

Even more exciting than the discovery of new pieces, the sculpture’s age has been refined using radio-carbon dating of other bones found in the strata. This reveals a date of 40,000 years ago, while until recently it was thought to be 32,000 years old. Once reconstruction is completed, several tiny, unused fragments of the mammoth ivory are likely to be carbon dated, and this is expected to confirm the result.

This revised dating pushes the Lion Man right back to the oldest sculptures, which have been found in two other caves in the Swabian Alps. These rare finds are dated at 35,000 to 40,000 years, but the Lion Man is by far the largest and most complex piece. A few carved items have been found in other regions which are slightly older, but these have simple patterns, not figuration.

What was striking about the sculptor of the Lion Man sculptor is that he or she had a mind capable of imagination rather than simply representing real forms. As Cook says, it is “not necessary to have a brain with a complex pre-frontal cortex to form the mental image of a human or a lion—but it is to make the figure of a lion-man”. The Ulm sculpture therefore sheds further light on the evolution of homo sapiens.

Conservators experimented by making a replica of Lion Man, calculating that it would take a highly skilled carver at least 400 hours using flint tools (two months’ work in daylight). This means that the carver would have had to be looked after by hunter-gatherers, which presupposes a degree of social organisation. There is an ongoing debate on what the Lion Man represents, and whether it is linked to shamanism and the spirit world.

Initially, it was hoped that the original of the Lion Manwould be presented at the British Museum’s exhibition, but this has not proved possible because conservators need further time to get the figure reconstructed as accurately as possible. The Ulm Museum now plans to unveil it in November.

"Ice Age Art: Arrival of the Modern Mind", British Museum, London, 7 February-26 May and “The Return of the Lion Man: History, Myth, Magic”, 16 November-9 June 2014, Ulmer Museum, Ulm.


narsimhaaaa :)

40000 years old :)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 12 Feb 2013 20:50

I swear this headline is not from L&M thread!!!

New cunning linguist computer has got ancient tongues licked

Boffins have put together a new computer system that attempts to translate protolanguages, the ancient "parent" tongues from which modern languages evolved.

The sophisticated Rosetta Stone-like system can quickly reconstruct the languages of yore from today's vocabularies with 85 per cent accuracy, we're told. The system's designers reckon it can outpace human linguists who painstakingly reconstruct protolanguages from the words we all know and use today.

With the exception of Latin - the parent of the Romance language family* - and a few others, written records of protolanguages tend to be rather rare, forcing experts to analyse modern speech to derive the parent languages. Specifically, linguists group together words with common meanings and study changes in pronunciation, among other techniques.

“We’re hopeful our tool will revolutionise historical linguistics much the same way that statistical analysis and computer power revolutionised the study of evolutionary biology,” said Alexandre Bouchard-Côté, statistics professor at the University of British Columbia and lead author of the study.

“And while our system won’t replace the nuanced work of skilled linguists, it could prove valuable by enabling them to increase the number of modern languages they use as the basis for their reconstructions.”

The new system, designed with help from colleagues at Berkeley, analyses sound-changes at basic phonetic unit level so it can operate at a much greater scale than previous computer tools.

The researchers reconstructed a set of protolanguages from a database of more than 142,000 word forms from 637 Austronesian languages for a study that will be published next week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. ®

* The group includes Spanish, Italian, French, Romanian, Neapolitan, Ladino and many more.



and associated older story circa 2012!

English descended from ancient Turkish


Linguiboffins have traced the origins of Indo-European languages to Turkey using the same methods developed to track bird flu, HIV and other viruses.

"If you know how viruses are related to one another you can trace back through their ancestry and find out where they originated,” said lead researcher Dr Quentin Atkinson of the University of Auckland. “We’ve used those methods and applied them to languages.”

The viral modelling traced languages such as English and German to Anatolia, what is now Turkey, where they were first used about 8,000 to 9,500 years ago. The researchers looked at basic vocabulary from 103 ancient and contemporary Indo-European languages, and found that the age and location matched their Anatolian theory.

They hypothesise that the languages spread with the expansion of farming into Europe through the Balkans, reaching western Europe about 5,000 years ago. The theory is backed up by genetic and skull-measurement data that also indicates an Anatolian contribution to the European gene pool.

The same team had put forward the idea of Anatolia before, using methods from evolutionary biology to build up the languages' family tree, but not all other linguiboffins were convinced.

Before this, linguists had theorised that Indo-European languages came from the Pontic steppe region north of the Caspian Sea and were spread into Europe and Asia by Kurgan semi-nomadic pastoralists 5,000 to 6,000 years ago.

The study was published in the journal Science. ®


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 12 Feb 2013 21:09

Books for the Library

Image

Geography, Peoples and Geodynamics of India In Puranas and Epics: A Geologist's Interpretations
Author: K.S. Valdiya
Publication Date: 2012


Review by Srinivasan Kalyanaraman

Geography, Peoples and Geodynamics of India in Puranas and Epics - KS Valdiya (2012), New Delhi, Aryan Books International, ISBN 978-81-7305-431-0 A brilliant book with insights provided by an eminent geologist, Prof. KS Valdiya is a must read by every child on the globe. I can do no better than Prof. Shivaji Singh's foreword to the book from which the following excerpt is provided: "Various factors sum up to make a study valuable and expedient. The reach and scope of the topic selected, the significance of the primary data used, the propriety of the line of approach followed, the sobriety of the inferences drawn and conclusions arrived at, and above all, the competence of the scholar to do justice to his subject are, admittedly, the most potent ones among them. And, I have no hesitation in stating that this book, authored by KS Valdiya, is worthwhile on all these counts...As a well-informed geo-scientist of the 21st century, Prof. Valdiya is fully aware of the nature of networking between and among various natural subsystems, geomorphology, climate, flora and fauna and its bearing on human habitat...The present study collects and reproduces several epic and Puranic descriptions that clearly indicate tectonic movements, such as the sudden uplift of Vindhya Giri at the occasion of age Agastya's journey towards South India or the abrupt sinking into sea of Dwaraka soon after Lord Krishna's death. What is the most noteworthy point in this context is that this study authenticates these episodes on the basis of modern earth-scientific evidence. This indicates that these descriptions are not spurious, as suspected by many, but based on real happenings...Th identification of Epic-Puranic mega-island Jambudveepa and its various constituent lands, called 'varshas', is masterly and trustworthy. It may be noted that except for one of these varshas, namely, Bharatavarsha or the land of Bharatas (which was the India of pre-partition times), the exact location of others was almost unknown so far...Some of the inferences drawn and conclusions arrived at in this study are extremely thought-provoking and truly seminal. For instance, it is demonstrated authoritatively that Purana scholars' conception on the origin, evolution and progression of life -- including he coming of man -- is compatible with modern palaeontologists' deductions based on fossil rcords...almost all the Jyotirlingas...are located in places characterized by very spectacular, unique landforms and extraordinary geological featurees shaped by uncommon earth processes...evidenc on the basis of comprehensive geological and bathymetric investigations backed by by tell-tale satellite picture has been adduced to show that it would not have been much difficult to build a bridge of sorts to link Rameshwaram with Lanka...Needless to say, these findings amply testify to the authenticity of the Epic-Puranic descriptios. The last one,it may be noted en passant, has even a far reaching implication for the highly debated issue of the original homeland of the early Aryans. Interestingly, the author has equated the 12,000-year-long Chaturyuga (Krita, Treta, Dwapara and Kali) with geologists' Holocene epich, which is the 11,000-year-long period of social and cultural development of humans." Prof. Valdiya's insightful presentation has been exquisitely presented in mellifuent prose embellished with colourful satellite and other images and maps. This is a book which will be debated and deliberated upon for a long time to come among scholars and academics engaged in civilizational studies. It may even change the views of those who hang on to the relic of Aryan invasion/migration/trickle-in models to describe the peopling of early India and make them agree to an indigenous, autochthonous evolution of the present-day Bharatiyas who have constituted an Indian sprachbund (language union). The book is a challenge to explorers to rewrite the true history of Bharatavarsha, the nation of Bharatam janam mentioned by Rishi Viswamitra in the Rigveda. The comprehensive geological view of the Puranas and Epics can be seen from the Table of Contents of the splendid book: 1. Purans: the ancient history 2. Geography of modern India and changes of landforms with time 3. Puranland: position and extent 4. Mountains of Bharatvarsh 5. Rivers of Bharatvarsh 6. Flora and fauna of Bharatvarsh 7. Peoples of the Puranland 8.Teerths and holy shrines 9. Ashrams and Purs 10. Tectonic movements and natural hazards Manifestaton of tectonic movements Uplift of Vindhya Giri Sinking of Western coastal tract Earthquakes and tsunamis Rivers changed courses Climate changes Concept of Pralaya 11. Understanding of geology and knowledge of engineering Scholars' grasp of sciences Nature of earth's interior Evolution of life Progression of life Anthropo-social development of humans Natural gases, mineral, metals and metallurgy Engineering of bridge building Town planning Knowledge of aerodynamics 12. Long summary of the book References Index Kalyanaraman


Opinion on Mahabharata Timing: 1424 BCE

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 12 Feb 2013 21:37

venug wrote:Rajesh garu,
The paper you asked for


Many many thanks venug ji!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 13 Feb 2013 23:32

Once OIT gets to be the theory to replace everything, the West will convert to Islam so they can be with the other.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby svinayak » 14 Feb 2013 00:02

ramana wrote:Once OIT gets to be the theory to replace everything, the West will convert to Islam so they can be with the other.

But Islam is not a race. There wont be race benfit

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 14 Feb 2013 00:04

Neither was Christianity! Yet they converted to become the Hametics!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 14 Feb 2013 00:21

Rajesh ji, no problem at all.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby krisna » 15 Feb 2013 07:05

found on the yahoo answers.

This is with coconut use in India. Interesting observations
Coconut
Deep rooted customs of Hinduism--- Dont these reject wholly false forged ""aryan-dravida"" divide theory?
In north India, one will not find even a single COCONUT tree. COCONUT tree is grown in abundance along coastal areas much far away from north India.
But, we find primary significance of coconut associated with religious rituals & social customs & culture in north India.
1:-During worshipping rituals of Hinduism the ""Kalash( COCONUT on top of water filled pot)"" is main deity.
2:-Copra(dry COCONUT) is offered to sacred Fire while Havan & Yagya.
3:-COCONUT is offered in Hindu temples as main item.
4:-Sisters gift the fruit of COCONUT to their brothers on various occasions.
5:- In laws of a boy/girl gift him/her copra(dry COCONUT) on various occasion right from the time of engagement.
6:-In the homes of typical north Indian communities, lots of COCONUTs get collected during festival seasons or auspicious occasions of marriage etc.

It is strange that NOT EVEN A SINGLE COCONUT TREE in north India but such a deep & strong relation & bond with COCONUT.

What does this reflect???
Whether these typical north Indian communities of Hindus originated and migrated from some coconut producing area somewhere in southern India ???
One thing is clear that ""arya-dravida"" racial theory is nothing but bundle of lies spread by sons of satan.
It must be discarded.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby johneeG » 15 Feb 2013 09:49

krisna wrote:found on the yahoo answers.

This is with coconut use in India. Interesting observations
Coconut
Deep rooted customs of Hinduism--- Dont these reject wholly false forged ""aryan-dravida"" divide theory?
In north India, one will not find even a single COCONUT tree. COCONUT tree is grown in abundance along coastal areas much far away from north India.
But, we find primary significance of coconut associated with religious rituals & social customs & culture in north India.
1:-During worshipping rituals of Hinduism the ""Kalash( COCONUT on top of water filled pot)"" is main deity.
2:-Copra(dry COCONUT) is offered to sacred Fire while Havan & Yagya.
3:-COCONUT is offered in Hindu temples as main item.
4:-Sisters gift the fruit of COCONUT to their brothers on various occasions.
5:- In laws of a boy/girl gift him/her copra(dry COCONUT) on various occasion right from the time of engagement.
6:-In the homes of typical north Indian communities, lots of COCONUTs get collected during festival seasons or auspicious occasions of marriage etc.

It is strange that NOT EVEN A SINGLE COCONUT TREE in north India but such a deep & strong relation & bond with COCONUT.

What does this reflect???
Whether these typical north Indian communities of Hindus originated and migrated from some coconut producing area somewhere in southern India ???
One thing is clear that ""arya-dravida"" racial theory is nothing but bundle of lies spread by sons of satan.
It must be discarded.


I was thinking of the same thing a few days back. I was musing on two ingredients:
a) Saffron(Kumkum) flower
b) Coconut

Saffron(kumkum) is found only in Kashmir and coconuts are found only in South-India. Yet, both of them play a pivotal role in Hindu rituals and customs.

---
On a related note,
etymology of the word 'Hindu':
The words 'Hind'(Persian) and 'Ind'(Greek) seem to be distortions of 'Sindh'. Lets assume this is correct.
But, what does the word 'sindh' mean?
It is generally, assumed that the word is related to the river 'Sindhu'.
But, in sanskrit 'Sindhu' also means ocean. Which ocean? Obviously, Hind mahasagar or Indian ocean. The fact that the ocean is also called 'Hind' or 'Ind' bolsters this connection. But, there is problem here. Indian ocean is demarcates the border of India to south. What is the beginning of India then? Well, Himalayas are traditionally seen as the natural borders of India to the north.

But, what about borders to east and west?
Is Sindhu river the border of India to the west? Nope. This idea of Sindhu being the western border does not seem to be correct. Gandhara(Kandahar) seemed to have been an important city in western India. It may be that the India, to the east of Sindhu river, was seen as mainland India.

But, is the word 'Hind' only related to geography?
If that was the case, then all the people would have been called 'Hindus', including the converted ones. That means, there would have been a group called 'Hindu-muslims' i.e. those Hindus who are muslims. But, there is no such group. The word 'Hindu' seems to be applied to a religious grouping by the foreign muslim invaders. Those who converted were not called 'Hindu' anymore.

So, the word 'Hind' is not a purely geographic term.

There is a word in Sanskrit 'Sindhoor'.

Wiki:
Sindoor (Hindustani: सिन्दूर or سندور, Bengali: সিঁদুর) is a traditional red or orange-red colored cosmetic powder from India, usually worn by married women along the parting of their hair.[1] Usage of sindoor denotes that a woman is married in many Hindu communities, and ceasing to wear it usually implies widowhood. The main component of traditional sindoor is usually vermilion.

Sindoor is traditionally applied at the beginning or completely along the parting-line of a woman’s hair (also called maang) or as a dot on the forehead. Sindoor is the mark of a married woman in Hinduism. Single women wear the dot in different colors ("bindi" in Hindi) but do not apply sindoor in their maang. Hindu widows do not wear the sindoor, signifying that their husband is no longer alive. A version used in Hindu rituals or puja is known as Kumkum.


Sindhoor of Goddess is praised in Lalitha-Sahasranama(of Brahmanda-Purana) and also, Soundarya Lahari(authored by Sri Adi Shankara). There is a misconception in some quarters that applying 'Sindhoor' is a north-Indian custom. This misconception is refuted by Lalitha Sahasranama and Soundarya Lahari. It is not a north-Indian custom, but rather a Hindu custom. There is a word 'Sumangali'. It refers to a married Hindu woman who has certain auspicious marks like Mangalsutra, Sindhoor, Bindi, ear-ornaments...etc.

Is the word 'Hind' related to 'Sindhoor'?

Closely related to 'Sindhoor' is another thing called 'Bindi'.

Wiki:
A bindi (Hindi: बिंदी, from Sanskrit bindu, meaning "a drop, small particle, dot"), or a pottu/bottu/tikuli is a forehead decoration worn in South Asia (particularly India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Mauritius). [1] and Southeast Asia. Traditionally it is a bright dot of red color applied in the center of the forehead close to the eyebrows, but it can also consist of a sign or piece of jewelry worn at this location.


The word 'bindi' comes from 'bindu'. Bindu, in sanskrit, means a small circle or a dot. I don't know whether the word 'bindu' can turn into 'hindu'.

But, from a foreigner perspective, bindi and sindhoor can be mixed up. Actually, even in the Hindu religion, bindi and sindhoor are closely connected.

Moreover, bindi is a visible mark to differentiate the Hindus from the muslims(local converts and foreign invaders). So, it is quite possible that the word 'Hind' may, at some point, have been linked to bindi or tilak.

But, the word 'Hind' and 'ind' predates the existence of muslims.

In greek,
sindon refers to Indian linen.

The body of Bhagavân is wrapped in vihataih karpâsair (instrumental plur., passim), i.e. cotton bandages that are "not beaten".
Hence the body of Jesus is wrapped in sindoni (instrumental case of sindôn), meaning "Indian linen

Matthew 27:59 καὶ λαβὼν τὸ σῶμα ὁ Ἰωσὴφ ἐνετύλιξεν αὐτὸ [ἐν] σινδόνι καθαρᾷ, ]
σινδόνι = sindoni = sindon, cloth of fine linen or silk, used especially for shrouds.

Matthew adds that the Indian linen is "clean" - obviously intended to correspond to the Sanskrit adjective avihatair
John 19:40 has the variant - also instrumental plural, as in Sanskrit: othoniois, from othonion (a loan word from Semitic), meaning linen bandages..
The motive of John is obvious: he fears the Indian association of sindôn, the Indian linen.


'Bhagavan' is a reference to Buddha from a Buddhist work called Maha-Parinirvana-Sutram(MPS).

The word 'sindoni' is used in gospel of mathew to convey the sense of cotton. It is a description of burial linen of 'Jesus'.

I need not here repeat what has often been said, namely that Matthew and his Buddhist friends often use the MPS as one of their major Buddhist sources for the incredible myths of the NT. The MPS is a part of the MSV, where we also have one of the sources of the Crucifixion etc. etc.
Link

On another related note:
Jews are called Yehudis.

Can 'hudi'(from ye-hudi) be related to Hindi(with a missing 'na' sound)? Pakis use the term 'Hanood' for 'Hindu'. It is a distorted misspelling. The term 'hanood' may have been born due to pronunciation disabilities. Pakis continue to use the term to mock 'Hindus'. Actually pakis are unable to realize that by continuing to use the term, they are mocking the those who coined this term because it reveals the the lack of proper pronunciation skills. So, even a simple term like 'Hindu' cannot be properly pronounced and gets distorted as 'Hanood'. Similarly, the word yehudi can also be a distortion of 'Hindu'. If one adds a 'na' sound, then yehudi will become yehundi.

---
johneeG wrote:Picture of the place from outside:
Image

Link to the original post

The above is a picture of archeological excavations of a site called Ceveteri. Many 'Shivalingas' were found at the place.

But, there is something interesting. Look at the above picture. Here is a link to bigger picture The architecture of the monument is so similar to Buddhist stupas. The mound-like top or the dome structure came to be associated with the Buddhists so much that the Hindus seem to have completely eschewed this architecture. Having said that, one must not think that the architecture was exclusively buddhist in origin. It is more likely that the Buddhists preferred the dome-structure. So, Hindus gave up this style and instead used other styles.

Image
Stupa at Sanchi.

Image
Stupa at Saranath.

There seems to be lot of architectural similarity. Further, the monuments were 'identified' as tombs. Buddhists keep relics (i.e. human remains) in their stupas.

Image
Rock cut Buddhist Stupas at Bojjannakonda, Andhra Pradesh

But, the following is a very interesting one:
Buddhist stupa discovered in Andhra Pradesh's Krishna district
J. R. Shridharan
Image
CULTURAL REMAINS: A hexagonal Ayaka pillar with a square pedestal found on a mound in Munjuluru village of Krishna District in Andhra Pradesh. Photo: V. Raju

Belongs to the Vajrayana period of Buddhism, dating back to 6th and 7th Century A.D.

A hemispherical Buddhist stupa belonging to the Vajrayana period of Buddhism dating back to 6th and 7th Century A.D. was by chance unearthed by the Department of Archaeology of Andhra Pradesh last week following sighting of a large brick in the vicinity of a large mound in this village.

The 10-metre (diametre) main stupa is now in a dilapidated state, but is yet another Buddhist site to get added to the four major ones in the district. Due to tilling activity some of the outer structures like aramas and ayakas have vanished. Some of the sculptures, bearing a distinct resemblance to the Amaravathi School of sculpting designs, now adorn some common places of the villages as Hindu deities such as Jambala (Kubera).

Vintage temple

The villagers considered it a vintage temple of Lord Shiva in a barren land of about 1 acre on the village outskirts. The stupa with Ayaka pillars in a hemispherical shape was found adjacent to the Zilla Parishad High School. The village derives its name from Buddhist bikshus, whom the locals used to call ‘Munulu' (sages) and thus the name Munuluru which over the years turned into Munjuluru.

Additional Director of Archaeology and Museums K. Chitti Babu, who visited the site along with The Hindu team, said that the stupa belonged to the last phase of the Buddhism (Vajrayana Buddhism practised in Tibet and Mongolia).

He said the barren area, covering many acres close to the stupa, was littered with Buddhist cultural remains.

Conch shells

The archaeologist also collected a number of red and black pottery, including rims in different shapes and sizes. The black, red and scarlet buffed ware, along with conical shaped bowls with heaps of lime conch shells used for plastering during the construction of the stupa, were collected and recorded by Mr. Babu.

The stupa is built with bricks made of husk measuring 23 cm width, 7 cm height and 28 cm length — a typical Buddhist construction material of that period. One of the ayaka pillars, which is in octagonal shape, was perched on a square base. However, for the locals it is a dilapidated Shiva temple. The government will soon issue a notice seeking objections from the public to declaring the stupa a protected national monument.

Link

The above picture looks very similar to the 'shivalingas' found in the Ceveteri.

Now, lets look at etruscian phallus'(Shivalinga):

Image

More links to many Shivalingas found in cerveteri:
http://217.115.252.254:1572/Dokumenty%20pro%20studenty/Dvo%C5%99%C3%A1k%20Martin/2.%20Starov%C4%9Bk/5.%20Etruskov%C3%A9/Etruscan%20phallic%20symbols,%20Cippi%20indicating%20that%20tomb%20occupants%20were%20male,%20Cerveteri.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roger_ulrich/6195624468/
Tomb Markers (cippi) from Cerveteri
An assortment of tomb markers (cippus, plural cippi), from the Etruscan Banditaccia necropolis of Cerveteri (Caere). These are no longer in situ. Markers like these, usually without any inscriptions or figural decoration, were set up on small stands before the doorways of chamber tombs.


So, is it possible that Ceveteri was a buddhist site?

Angkor Wat was originally a Hindu temple. Later, it was usurped over by the Buddhists. This is not an isolated incident. Buddhists and Jains had attempted to usurp many Hindu sites, a partly succeeded(at least, for some time). The same thing may have happened at Ceveteri.

Necropolis of the Banditaccia

The most famous attraction of Cerveteri is the Necropoli della Banditaccia, which has been declared by UNESCO a World Heritage Site together with the necropoleis in Tarquinia. It covers an area of 400 ha, of which 10 ha can be visited, encompassing a total of 1,000 tombs often housed in characteristic mounds. It is the largest ancient necropolis in the Mediterranean area. The name Banditaccia comes from the leasing (bando) of areas of land to the Cerveteri population by the local landowners.

The tombs date from the 9th century BC (Villanovan culture) to the late Etruscan age (3rd century BC). The most ancient ones are in the shape of a pit, in which the ashes of the dead were housed; also simple potholes are present.

From the Etruscan period are two types of tombs: the mounds and the so-called "dice", the latter being simple square tombs built in long rows along "roads". The visitable area contains two such "roads", the Via dei Monti Ceriti and the Via dei Monti della Tolfa (6th century BC).

The mounds are circular structures built in tuff, and the interiors, carved from the living rock, house a reconstruction of the house of the dead, including a corridor (dromos), a central hall and several rooms. Modern knowledge of Etruscan daily life is largely dependent on the numerous decorative details and finds from such tombs. The most famous of these mounds is the so-called Tomba dei Rilievi (Tomb of the Reliefs, 3rd century BC), identified from an inscription as belonging to one Matunas and provided with an exceptional series of frescoes, bas-reliefs and sculptures portraying a large series of contemporary life tools.
Etruscan phallic symbols. "Cippi" indicating that tomb occupants were male

The most recent tombs date from the 3rd century BC. Some of them are marked by external cippi, which are cylindrical for men, and in the shape of a small house for women.

A large number of finds excavated at Cerveteri are in the National Etruscan Museum, Rome, with others in the Vatican Museums and many other museums around the world. Others, mainly pottery, are in the Archaeological Museum at Cerveteri itself.
Last edited by johneeG on 15 Feb 2013 11:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Feb 2013 10:39

North-South is an artificial division created for AIT. Coconuts mean coast. Show me a north Indian coastline and I will show you coconut trees in north India. Think Gujarat and Saraswati/Drishtadvati

The Vedic civilization has references to rivers and ocean. So coconuts, associated with ocean are unsurprising.

The Vindhya mountains are touted as some kind of dividing line. But how come
1. The Vindhyas were no barrier to 50,000 BC early humans
2. 5000 meter high Hindu Kush passes transmitted horses on Chariots in 1200 BC and chariots have never crossed that barrier before or after. Even Alexander who came and conked out at Indus took no chariots across Hindu Kush. But oh Eurasians did that just once in 1200 BC coming from steppe with language.

AIT is a big fudge. It started with anti-Semitism and anti-Hamitism. It is now called "science"

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem » 15 Feb 2013 10:53

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 2IQ#t=857s

Look at this another ME/ Bilblical God with typical Indian gesture, He is the father of gods . Very Interesting Info about Eloyen/ Aylle/ Allah God. All Indra look alikes. at 35.16 there is a mother Godess with full figures and flanked by guess, 2 Lions !!.
Did they have Lions in Middle Eastern Desert ? Israelis are the children of Cannanites who were Deva ?Devi worshipers till Yawhve did the violent purge 2600 Hundred years ago.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Feb 2013 11:41

johneeG wrote:On another related note:
Jews are called Yehudis.

Can 'hudi'(from ye-hudi) be related to Hindi(with a missing 'na' sound)? Pakis use the term 'Hanood' for 'Hindu'. It is a distorted misspelling. The term 'hanood' may have been born due to pronunciation disabilities. Pakis continue to use the term to mock 'Hindus'. Actually pakis are unable to realize that by continuing to use the term, they are mocking the those who coined this term because it reveals the the lack of proper pronunciation skills. So, even a simple term like 'Hindu' cannot be properly pronounced and gets distorted as 'Hanood'. Similarly, the word yehudi can also be a distortion of 'Hindu'. If one adds a 'na' sound, then yehudi will become yehundi.


In his paper "Antiquity and Origin of the Term 'Hindu'", Dr. Murlidhar H. Pahoja writes,

Pahoja wrote:The Hamadan, Persepolis and Naqsh-I-Rustam Inscriptions of Persian monarch Darius mention a people 'Hidu' as included in his empire. These inscriptions are dated between 520-485 B.C. This fact establishes that the term 'Hi(n)du' was current more than 500 years before Christ. Xerexes, successor of Darius, in his inscriptios4 at Persepolis, gives names of countries under his rule. The list includes 'Hidu'. Xerexes was ruling between 485-465 B.C. On a tomb in Persepolis, another inscription assigned to Artaxerexes (404-395 B.C.), there are three figures above which are inscribed 'iyam Qataguviya' (this is Satygidian), 'iyam Ga(n)dariya' (this is Gandhara) and 'iyam Hi(n)duviya' (this is Hi(n)du).

The Asokan inscriptions (3rd century B.C.)5, repeatedly use expressions like 'Hida' (हिद) for 'India' and 'Hida loka' (हिद लोक) for 'Indian nation'. 'Hida' and its derivative forms are used more than 70 times in the Ashokan inscriptions.


So the term 'Hindu' has a history of being used in the form of 'Hida'. That does indeed bring it phonetically closer to 'Ye-huda'!

There is some history of some Afghan tribes considering themselves as Yehudi tribes as well.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Feb 2013 13:28

lions were widespread across much of eurasia

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Feb 2013 13:45

Sapta Sindhu was Hapta Hindu (a region) for the Zoroastrians who later occupied all of Iran. So the area has been known as "Hindu" since before 1000 BC. Calling the people "Hindus" probably dates from similar antiquity.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby johneeG » 15 Feb 2013 14:21

Manish_Sharma wrote:
harbans wrote:[quote>>Rudradeva wrote>>It is Hindu Dharm, not some amorphously delineated "Dharmic Value System", which propounded the national movement for independence under Tilak, Lala Lajpat Rai and Bipin Chandra Pal. It is Hindu Dharm, not some confused notion of "Dharmic this or Dharmic that" which Vivekananda restored as a beacon of inspiration for the modern nation of India. And it is Hindu Dharm, not some vague high-minded abstraction, which keeps 80% of the people of India invested emotionally, psychologically and spiritually in the welfare of India today./quote]

Rudra ji, irrespective of whoever said what about Hinduism, truth is it was a term given by foreigners. .....


I also used to think so, but Poster Shri Gandharva educated me through this link, this pdf has ample proofs that word 'Hindu' was used in our shastras:

https://sites.google.com/site/sarasvati95/antiquityhindu.pdf?attredirects=0


Here is the original post of Shri Gandharva:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5283&p=781421#p781421
gandharva wrote:Sharma Ji this is for you.

Quote:
Antiquity and Origin of the Term 'Hindu'
http://sarasvati95.googlepages.com/antiquityhindu.pdf


Please download this pdf and read it, its just 7 pages.


Thanks to Manish Sharmaji and Gandharvaji.

Shiv saar,
the author of the above pdf makes the same argument that the word 'Hindu' is as ancient as Hapta Hindu, which is a distortion of Sapta Sindhu. And, 'Sindhu' is found in Vedas.

The author also raises another interesting point: If Persians could not pronounce 'sa' and distorted it as 'ha', then what about the 'sa' in Persia. So, the author concludes that the habit of pronouncing 'sa' as 'ha' is not from Persia(originally), but from Gujarat where Somnath(is called Homnath...etc).

---
RajeshA wrote:
johneeG wrote:On another related note:
Jews are called Yehudis.

Can 'hudi'(from ye-hudi) be related to Hindi(with a missing 'na' sound)? Pakis use the term 'Hanood' for 'Hindu'. It is a distorted misspelling. The term 'hanood' may have been born due to pronunciation disabilities. Pakis continue to use the term to mock 'Hindus'. Actually pakis are unable to realize that by continuing to use the term, they are mocking the those who coined this term because it reveals the the lack of proper pronunciation skills. So, even a simple term like 'Hindu' cannot be properly pronounced and gets distorted as 'Hanood'. Similarly, the word yehudi can also be a distortion of 'Hindu'. If one adds a 'na' sound, then yehudi will become yehundi.


In his paper "Antiquity and Origin of the Term 'Hindu'", Dr. Murlidhar H. Pahoja writes,

Pahoja wrote:The Hamadan, Persepolis and Naqsh-I-Rustam Inscriptions of Persian monarch Darius mention a people 'Hidu' as included in his empire. These inscriptions are dated between 520-485 B.C. This fact establishes that the term 'Hi(n)du' was current more than 500 years before Christ. Xerexes, successor of Darius, in his inscriptios4 at Persepolis, gives names of countries under his rule. The list includes 'Hidu'. Xerexes was ruling between 485-465 B.C. On a tomb in Persepolis, another inscription assigned to Artaxerexes (404-395 B.C.), there are three figures above which are inscribed 'iyam Qataguviya' (this is Satygidian), 'iyam Ga(n)dariya' (this is Gandhara) and 'iyam Hi(n)duviya' (this is Hi(n)du).

The Asokan inscriptions (3rd century B.C.)5, repeatedly use expressions like 'Hida' (हिद) for 'India' and 'Hida loka' (हिद लोक) for 'Indian nation'. 'Hida' and its derivative forms are used more than 70 times in the Ashokan inscriptions.


So the term 'Hindu' has a history of being used in the form of 'Hida'. That does indeed bring it phonetically closer to 'Ye-huda'!

There is some history of some Afghan tribes considering themselves as Yehudi tribes as well.


I read other translations. There 'Hida Loka' and 'Pala Loka' is being translated as 'this world' and 'other world' respectively. So, I think, 'Hida Loka' is being equated with sanskrit's 'iha loka' and 'Pala Loka' is being equated with sanskrit's 'Para Loka'.

The alternative translation of 'Ashoka's edict' is:
All men are my children, and just as I desire for my children that they should obtain welfare and happiness both in this world and the next, the same do I desire for all men.
Link

I don't know the authenticity of the above translation. But, it looks alright. However, I think several alternate readings/interpretations are possible.

For example, 'Hida Loka' and 'Pala Loka' may refer to 'Hida' people and 'Pala' people. Here, 'Loka' can be read as not place, but people. If 'Hida' are identified as Hindus, then who are 'Pala'? Well, Pali is central language for Buddhists. The King of these edicts is also Buddhist. So, 'Pala' people are Buddhists and 'Hida' people are Hindus. The King may be saying that he wishes to treat both Hindus and Buddhists as his children and they are equal in his eyes(even though he is personally a Buddhist).

It is interesting that the so-called edicts of Ashoka Maurya keeps mentioning 'Piyadasi'. But there is NO mention of 'Ashoka' or 'Maurya'. So, I am strongly skeptical of identifying these edicts as belonging to Ashoka, the Maurya. It must be remembered that there is more than one Ashoka in Indian history and many Kings have used the title of 'Ashoka' in several forms like Ashoka-aditya,...etc. So, I don't understand how people are connecting these edicts with Ashoka, the Maurya. I think the only connection being made is that the edicts refer to a Buddhist King who actively supported the missionaries home and abroad. So, it is being assumed that they are referring to Ashoka, the Maurya. I think such a connection would be a huge jump based on specious logic. It is possible that there were many Buddhist Kings. And all the Buddhist Kings may have supported the Buddhist missionaries in their own realm and abroad. Also, the same pillar may be used by multiple Kings for inscriptions.

Further, the spread of the Buddhism to far and wide, that is being claimed in the edicts, may not be achievable under one king(or the first Buddhist King). Rather, it may be a result of successive royal patronage for a long time.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Yogi_G » 15 Feb 2013 16:06

ramana wrote:Once OIT gets to be the theory to replace everything, the West will convert to Islam so they can be with the other.


Goras in their 15 seconds of fame have behaved so badly with their racism and "third world" tags that it will be very difficult that they wont feel the heat when they have to go under the tutelage of Arabs. At best they can go back to their indigenous pagan religions.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Feb 2013 16:16

johneeG wrote:Shiv saar,
the author of the above pdf makes the same argument that the word 'Hindu' is as ancient as Hapta Hindu, which is a distortion of Sapta Sindhu. And, 'Sindhu' is found in Vedas.

The author also raises another interesting point: If Persians could not pronounce 'sa' and distorted it as 'ha', then what about the 'sa' in Persia. So, the author concludes that the habit of pronouncing 'sa' as 'ha' is not from Persia(originally), but from Gujarat where Somnath(is called Homnath...etc).


Not surprising. Zoroastrians are descended from the rishi Bhargava (Bhrigu) . Bhargava is another name for Spitama who is said to be the ancestor of Zoroaster. Zoroaster was himself an atharvan or fire priest like Bhargava (Bhrigu)

The town of Bharuch (now Broach) in Gujarat gets its name from Bhrigu-kaksha, so the Bhrigus were all over that area originally. They migrated to the west after they broke with the Vedic beliefs of Rishi Angirasa's clan. Angirasa appears in Zoroastrianism as the representative of evil Angra Mainyu. The Atharva Veda that we have today is the Angirasa Atharva Veda. The Gathas of the Zend Avesta (oldest parts) correspond to the Bhargava Atharva Veda.

The Gopatha Brahmana actually refers to the Atharva Veda as the Bhargava-Atharva Samhita. But our Atharva veda has nothing from the Bhrigus

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 15 Feb 2013 20:04

IT is Bhrigukachchha (भृगुकच्छ)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 15 Feb 2013 20:07

Word Heart is Chori-chapati of Sanskrit हार्द

हार्द् (fr. and hṛd ). See. dur- and su-h/ārd .
हार्द mfn. relating to or being in the heart
हार्द n. love, kindness, affection for( locative case or compound ) etc.
हार्द n. meaning, intention, purpose
हार्दवत् mfn. feeling affection for( locative case )
हार्दविद्या f. Name of work
हार्दि m. contentment, ease, comfort
हार्दि m. the heart
हार्दि n. the heart or interior of the body (also applied to the intestines)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 15 Feb 2013 20:16

It is said that rishi Bhrigu came riding a tortoise to Bhrigukachchha (भृगुकच्छ)

कच्छ mfn. a particular part of a tortoise
कच्छप m. ' keeping or inhabiting a marsh ', a turtle, tortoise etc.
कच्छपी f. a female tortoise or a kind of small tortoise
कच्छपी f. a kind of lute (so named from being similar in shape to the tortoise ; See. testudo )
कच्छपक m. a tortoise
कच्छपिका f. a kind of small tortoise

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 15 Feb 2013 20:18

Btw, Soup is a sanskrit word too !! (Indicated by Nilesh Oak and further digging by yours truly)

कलायसूप m. pea-soup
माषसूप m. -bbean-soup
सूपिक m. orn. (?) sūpa , sauce, soup etc.
सूप्य mfn. fit for a sauce or soup etc.
सूप्य n. food consisting of soup

Nilesh-ji suggested that in Mahabharat Bhim was known as Soop Kaarak - an expert cook in making soups (?)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 15 Feb 2013 20:33

Btw, Bhrigukachchha (भृगुकच्छ) Bharuch has a known history for about 8000 years.

History

Bharuch is the oldest city of Gujarat. It is also the second oldest city of India having continuous inhibitations, first being Kashi (Varanasi).

BC Era
Certainly by the 6th century BC, the city was known at least by reputation, via land-sea routes reaching the Levant to the Arab and Ethiopian traders feeding goods westwards to the Egyptians, Greeks, Persians, Western Romans, Carthaginians, and eventually, the Eastern Roman Empires, and the Republic of Venice. It is likely even the Phonecians knew of it and so it has acted since antiquity as a link port to the luxury goods trade from the Far East and the interior of the Indian sub-continent to the civilizations of South-west Asia, the Middle-East, the Mediterranean basin including Northern Africa and Europe.

The ancient Sri Lankan chronicle, the Dipavamsa, mentions that the legendary king Vijaya stopped at Bharukaccha for three months c 500 BC.[5]

The Theragatha, part of the Pali Canon written down in Sri Lanka in the 1st century BCE, mentions Vaddha Thera and Malitavamba Thera of Bharukaccha, as contemporaries of the Buddha, while the Therigatha of the same canon mentions Vaddhamta Theri of Bharukaccha.

It was known to the Greeks and Romans as Barygaza, and probably had a settlement of Greek traders. As one southern terminus of the Kamboja-Dvaravati Route, it is mentioned extensively as a major trading partner of the Roman world, in the 1st century Periplus of the Erythraean Sea. One of the Periploi describes numerous Greek buildings and fortifications in the area, although mistakenly attributing them to Alexander the Great who never reached this far south, as well as the circulation of Indo-Greek coinage in the region:

"The metropolis of this country is Minnagara, from which much cotton cloth is brought down to Barygaza. In these places there remain even to the present time signs of the expedition of Alexander, such as ancient shrines, walls of forts and great wells." Periplus, Chap. 41
"To the present day ancient Drachmae are current in Bharuch|Barygaza, coming from this country, bearing inscriptions in Greek letters, and the devices of those who reigned after Alexander the Great, Apollodotus I and Menander." Periplus Chap. 47[6]

Excavations near the banks of the river Narmada in Bharuch have revealed many archeological and architectural wonders, mostly temples. Later Bharuch was part of the Mauryan Empire (322–185 BC), the Western Satraps, the Guptas and the Gurjars.[7]

According to historical accounts, the kingdom with capital at Bhinmal (or Srimal) was established by the Gurjars (or Gujjars). The kingdom of Bharuch was the offshoot of this Kingdom.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharuch

udy
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby udy » 15 Feb 2013 20:44

I must apologize as this might not be correct and ot. I remember seeing in the early parts of this thread of an indus seal with a cow like animal with a forward bent horn.
This photo appears in firstpost website today
Image

The cow has has what looks like forward bent horns though not as straight as the ones in the seal. As you see the location is gujarat.

shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Feb 2013 20:47

^Bull. Not cow

But there is a hidden joke here.

AIT Nazis said that Indus seals did not feature horses, so there were no horses. The reply to that was that Indus seals feature only bulls, not cows. So there were no cows. :lol:

Klaus
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Klaus » 15 Feb 2013 21:01

Murugan wrote:It is said that rishi Bhrigu came riding a tortoise to Bhrigukachchha (भृगुकच्छ)

कच्छ mfn. a particular part of a tortoise


Could this be related to the story of Shukracharya's tutelage of Kacha, who was given the life-saving sanjeevini herbs. The story is set in the backdrop of the war between devas and asuras.

Recently, I have been thinking that the Sanjeevini could be a specific type of sea-weed/sea-cucumber and was probably found near the coast of hind mahasagar (still is). Relatives of the specific medicinal plants could have grown in salt lakes and in high altitude (Aravalli range of Rajasthan).


disha
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby disha » 15 Feb 2013 23:57

JohneeG'ji,

You are doing excellent work, digging out details. But a gentle request to hold your horses on some language (or attitude?)

For example:

johneeG wrote:Angkor Wat was originally a Hindu temple. Later, it was usurped over by the Buddhists. This is not an isolated incident. Buddhists and Jains had attempted to usurp many Hindu sites, a partly succeeded(at least, for some time). The same thing may have happened at Ceveteri.


Usurp means taking something by force illegally.

It will be not just ignorance and narrow mindedness, but stupidity to think in those lines. If you are thinking in those lines, stop and revert since you have already fallen for the divisions caused by the AIT'vadis. You can as well start thumping the book!

Whether you question the historicity of Ashoka or not, the truth is that Chandragupta Maurya took samadhi as a Jain monk and his grandson was a Buddhist.

The "Hindu Religion" (should be the Sanatana Dharma)., is one of the most open minded philosophy and accomodates various like the Sarasvati-Sindhu rivers accepts various tributaries and makes it great! And both Jain and Buddhist philosophies contributed greatly to the civilization and culture of India.

To come back and say that they "usurped" religious places is not just sheer ignorance, but stupidity. So please do not go there. I do understand the frustration that a lay Hindu adherant has., but a note - we are welcome to kill all Jains and Buddhists and usurp their religous place of worships and convert all of them to "Hindu"., but then we are no different from Taliban and of course we have not understood the Sanatana Dharma (or Hinduism).

Please continue on with the great work, but a note of caution - do not yourself fall in the trap the "AITollahs" (tm) have set it up for you.


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