LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 19 Feb 2013 13:29

Nitpick. Rockets are unguided and also their "mount" does not rotate so there is no question of slaving to helmet/pod. Slaving would work for the Mistral AAM and the Nexter gun not for rockets.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Feb 2013 19:05

abhik wrote:
Rahul M wrote:too small.
Why?

space/carrying capacity needed to carry 7-8 VVIP/VIPs + support staff over decent ranges.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Feb 2013 10:01

As per an article in latest issue of FORCE Magazine, there are 4 x Dhruv Squadrons in the IA with 5th being having raised recently. Also, the contracted for Apaches will go to IAF. The long term plan calls for each Division in the IA to have a Recce & Observation Squadron of light helicopters.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 20 Feb 2013 12:05

Finally ADE bagged a order of 50 LGB 1000 lb class sudershan.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 20 Feb 2013 12:22

I love the IAF if what is written is the reason behind ordering 50 bombs. When i was a kid even a standard fireworks hydrogen bomb used to be bad within ten metres and this is a 1000lb high explosive bomb and the reason for low numbers is that it is 5 mtrs away from where it should land. Nice way to go

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 21 Feb 2013 18:26

HAL Connect

LCH TD-3 Standard Cockpit Mockup
The design of third prototype of LCH-TD3 is under final stages incorporating all the feedback from development flight testing of other two prototypes: TD1 and TD2. In order to assess the impact of design changes on cockpit, a mockup has been fabricated and completed on January 16, 2013 at RWRDC. Specific features of TD-3 as compared to the earlier prototypes are : reduced cockpit length (226 mm) and height (60 mm), improved door configuration, vision optimization with modified perspex area, modified door locking and Jettison mechanism, modified rudder pedals for gunner and rationalized switches and switch panels. Nearly 50% of the parts and assemblies on the mockup have been built using Rapid Prototyping technology which enabled the build-up of the mockup within a time frame of three months. The mockup would be evaluated by HAL pilots and customer pilots for ingress / egress and other ergonomic aspects.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Feb 2013 20:13

Never saw this air intake on the Dhruv before. Any ideas?

P.S. Okay found out what it is Fit and Forget Engine Protection

sumits · Post by **sumits** » 23 Feb 2013 20:30

India-Provide-Army-Improved-Version-Cheetah-Helo

In this article, it says "Work on Cheetal began after it was found in 2009 that India’s homemade Advanced Light Helicopter was unable to fly, as intended, at heights above 20,000 feet. The Cheetal can fly up to a height of 25,000 feet, meeting the Army’s logistical needs."

But I thought it was reported that in October 2007, a Dhruv Mk.3 flew to an altitude of 27,500 ft ASL in Siachen. So why Cheetal instead of Dhruvs?

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 23 Feb 2013 20:53

^^^^ IIRC the dhruv production line is booked for many years.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 24 Feb 2013 08:44

sumits_mail wrote:India-Provide-Army-Improved-Version-Cheetah-Helo

In this article, it says "Work on Cheetal began after it was found in 2009 that India’s homemade Advanced Light Helicopter was unable to fly, as intended, at heights above 20,000 feet. The Cheetal can fly up to a height of 25,000 feet, meeting the Army’s logistical needs."

But I thought it was reported that in October 2007, a Dhruv Mk.3 flew to an altitude of 27,500 ft ASL in Siachen. So why Cheetal instead of Dhruvs?

Just a classic case of the DDM. The Dhruv can indeed climb to that altitude and it can carry a much higher payload. These morons should be whipped in public for spreading such lies.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 066_1.html

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 24 Feb 2013 09:08

sumits_mail wrote:India-Provide-Army-Improved-Version-Cheetah-Helo

In this article, it says "Work on Cheetal began after it was found in 2009 that India’s homemade Advanced Light Helicopter was unable to fly, as intended, at heights above 20,000 feet. The Cheetal can fly up to a height of 25,000 feet, meeting the Army’s logistical needs."

But I thought it was reported that in October 2007, a Dhruv Mk.3 flew to an altitude of 27,500 ft ASL in Siachen. So why Cheetal instead of Dhruvs?

This article is BS. Cheetal can't fly to 25000ft. But Dhruv can definitely fly to 20000ft.
The press release by HAL says that Cheetal can fly upto 6km with 90kg weight. It has an operational range of 7kms.
http://hal-india.com/Contract%20for%20C ... opters.asp

Bangalore, February 22, 2013: HAL has signed contract worth Rs. 418 crore with the Ministry of Defence for supply of 20 Cheetal helicopters and associated equipments to the Indian Army over the next four years. HAL will also provide training to the pilots and technical crew. This is the first contract for supply of Cheetal helicopters to the Indian Army. HAL had the initial order for 10 Cheetal helicopters from Indian Air Force.

About Cheetal Helicopter:

Cheetal is the re-engined variant (developed as company funded programme) of the proven Cheetah helicopter being manufactured by HAL for over four decades. Cheetal helicopter is equipped with a Turbomeca TM 333-2M2 free turbine turboshaft engine which is more fuel efficient and provides higher payload capability of 90 kgs at an altitude of 6 kms. Cheetal helicopter can operate up to seven kms altitude and has a range of 640 kms with an endurance of 3.50 hrs.

The Cheetal is fitted with a full authority digital engine control (FADEC) system for engine control and an Electronic Backup Control Box (EBCB) system which automatically takes over engine control in the event of FADEC failure.

Cheetal incorporates features of modern cockpit instruments like electrically driven artificial horizon, directional gyro, Flight monitoring system, Cockpit Voice Recorder and Master Flasher Warning System.

The Cheetal helicopter is a multirole helicopter and is best suited for the missions such as personnel transport, casualty evacuation, reconnaissance and aerial survey, logistic air support, rescue operations and under slung loads (cargo).

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 24 Feb 2013 10:04

Maybe cost of operation. Cheetals are single engined while the Dhruvs are twin engined.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 24 Feb 2013 10:35

^ No way. It is 90 kg vs 600 kg. If it was just the twin engine thing it should be 90 kg vs 180 kg or maybe even 200 kg, but that is not the case. In this instance I think it DDMitis mixed in with an ALH assembly line that is already over capacity. I wish they would give larger orders instead of these piecemeal 20 or so, which would allow investment in a separate assembly line. Sometimes I think these piecemeal procurement programs are designed to promote already established and commercially viable (not to mention kickback providing) foreign options rather than give a domestic alternative a commercially viable chance. Of course, this might not be the case for Cheetal, which is largely built in India.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Feb 2013 11:29

Gurneesh wrote:^^^^ IIRC the dhruv production line is booked for many years.

Well, the induction of Cheetal is happening as a stop-gap-measure till the contract for the new 197 LUH is inked or HAL comes in with a homegrown version of the same. They are not a competitor to ALH and were conceived because Cheetah helicopters were getting long in the tooth.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 24 Feb 2013 12:48

Soon we'll be discussing production delays again. I hope the Cheetal contract includes the carrot and stick in the form of incentives for early delivery and financial penalties for delays. It would keep things professional and prevent IAF-style outbursts.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 25 Feb 2013 13:19

Arun Menon wrote:^ No way. It is 90 kg vs 600 kg. If it was just the twin engine thing it should be 90 kg vs 180 kg or maybe even 200 kg, but that is not the case. In this instance I think it DDMitis mixed in with an ALH assembly line that is already over capacity. I wish they would give larger orders instead of these piecemeal 20 or so, which would allow investment in a separate assembly line. Sometimes I think these piecemeal procurement programs are designed to promote already established and commercially viable (not to mention kickback providing) foreign options rather than give a domestic alternative a commercially viable chance. Of course, this might not be the case for Cheetal, which is largely built in India.

You may not want to cart 600 kgs. all the time.

vic · Post by **vic** » 14 Mar 2013 09:43

I think ALH should be used for VVIP helos and combination of LCH+LCA should be used as replacement of Apache import.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 14 Mar 2013 17:29

only problem with your solution is that the LCH and LCA do not exist as a usable product. They won't be available for years to IA/IAF to try them

ALH for VVIP, I proposed that first, few pages back.......Ha

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Mar 2013 17:37

how much do our minister munnas travel by helicopter? its mostly done for election campaigning within a state. a few old Mi17 could be used for the purpose.

a few Dhruv could airlift the lutyens crowd from safdarjung aerodrome to palam technical area and avoid road blocking.

but no - we need to ape the POTUS and go big.

vic · Post by **vic** » 14 Mar 2013 19:46

Apache are also not coming tomorrow

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 15 Mar 2013 00:42

Why not? They can come tomorrow for a right price but LCH/LCA will come when they'll come!

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 17 Mar 2013 20:28

My Latest Photo:

ZP4602 in the Night ► http://www.airliners.net/photo/2239891/L/

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Mar 2013 09:20

The following article gives a precise explanation of how Agusta Westland came into the picture. I think fmr CAS Tyagi is clean
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19969

In summary:

1. Air HQ wanted minimum altitude of 6000 m for VIP helo , but PMO said that VIPs had never been taken over 4500 m which was enough and lower requirements would lead to more helos entering the competition
2. PMO to give a list of exact requirements
3. The helo would replace Mi 17 and Mi 17 does not go above 4500 m so that limit was adequate
4. Single vendor to be avoided
5. Earlier op reqmts of 6 km and 5 km reduced to 4.5 km and 2 km in order to avoid single vendor situation
6. SPG wanted an increase in helo numbers from 8 to 12
7. Three companies -- makers of Mi-172, Sikorsky which made the S-92 helicopters and Augusta Westland's AWA101 -- responded to the RFP.
8. All companies had to sign "No bribe" contract
9. Mi 172 withdrawn as they refused to sign, leaving Sikorsky and Agusta Westland
10. According to Air Force sources S-92 was found to be non-compliant on four counts:

It could not reach 15000 feet without maximum power
Its 'hover out of ground effect' wasn't sufficient
Its drift down altitude was not meeting the requirement
Missile airborne warning system wasn't up to the mark

11. AgustaWestland with its three engines was a bonus, according to Air Force test pilots since one engine failure still meant it had two to fall back upon.
12. Apart from Tyagi "Several top officials including the then National Security Advisor (NSA) MK Narayanan (now Governor of West Bengal), then Special Protection Group (SPG) Chief BV Wanchoo (now Governor of Goa), then Defence Secretary Ajai Vikram Singh and current Defence Secretary Shashikant Sharma, who was then Joint Secretary (air), were all involved in deciding the specifications that allowed AgustaWestland to enter the competition. " helped to make the decisions

If the marines thing blows over, I think Agusta Westland is on track IMHO

Jamie Boscardin · Post by **Jamie Boscardin** » 18 Mar 2013 11:00

I agree, I think this is a unwanted wild goose chase!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Mar 2013 13:07

they're trying to get SP Tyagi as the scapegoat..that much is obvious. The real culprits will never be exposed due to their political connections.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 18 Mar 2013 22:54

Most if not all of the information on that article was released by MoD with-in couple of days of Arrests in Italy. It does look like he is clean but that is how the corruption is done. Make it look like logical, consensus and well audited decision by shifting the reference points.

When they say "Single vendor situation should be avoided" could simply mean we need revisions in QR to get Agusta back in the game and that can't be done with-out air chief's approval. His brother's may have got paid for that approval. Also change in the cabin height requirement (not mentioned in that article) eliminated the chopper that won the contract in first round, clearing the way for Agusta to compete. No one objected (or it was not recorded in the meeting minutes) to the cabin height changes on the basis that with such a requirement we are eliminating the only copter that actually meets all of the original GSQR.

What gets put on the official file had to look all good, proper and clean beyond doubt for it to pass through a dozen or so approval processes. Somewhere their, some one can play little tricks that won't even get noticed and certainly be next to impossible to prove. On top of that, in India most of the bribes are paid to babus to do the things that have nothing wrong in it, it's just the cost of their signature. Many officers and politicians would not sign off on contracts/payments unless a certain % of that is put on their table first in advance.

It is possible that the first round of bidding was canceled because the company didn't pay-up the grease money. Suddenly there are thoughts about single vendor situation, Cabin height and we don't need to take VVIPs to 6000m heights and what not.

The only way to find out the truth is to follow the money trail, that always leads up to the real crooks right up to the top.

James B · Post by **James B** » 29 Mar 2013 15:04

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Mar 2013 19:45

^^simply beautiful

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Mar 2013 20:08

the general look of the machine is not as lean and sleek as the supercobra though. the fixed undercarriage , the huge area of glass in cockpit amd the rather large x-section of the tail boom make it look less lean and military.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Mar 2013 20:53

Hope it has sensors close to the Super Cobra.

However, I really do not see that much of a diff - glass, yes. But that should come some time down stream I would think. For a first cut this is good stuff.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Mar 2013 21:05

Check how agile it is..doubt if the Supercobra comes anywhere close in that dept and in the high altitude dept.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2013 05:55

I was not complaining about functionality but whining about its "looks" ...the wz10 looks very similar.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Mar 2013 09:56

LCH looks very sleek and nimble platform , the build quality is as good as any thing other there

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 02 Apr 2013 08:12

IAF, not Army, will get first of the Apaches attack helicopters: Govt

NEW DELHI: The defence ministry has rejected the Army's case for "ownership" of the 22 heavy-duty Apache helicopters, armed with deadly Hellfire and Stinger missiles, which India is all set to acquire from the US in a $1.4 billion contract.

The MoD, citing defence minister A K Antony's approval, has held the 22 AH-64D Apache Longbow gunships will "remain" with the IAF because the procurement deal was an "ongoing" one, which did not fall into category of "future" acquisitions, said officials.

An undeterred Army, however, chalked out plans to have its own "mini" air force in the years ahead. Apart from creating a permanent cadre for the Army Aviation Corps, the force is raising "aviation brigades" for each of its three "strike" and 10 "pivot" corps.

The Army currently operates 195 Chetak/Chetak light observation helicopters as well as 70 Dhruv advanced light helicopters. Its long-term plans include three helicopter squadrons (10-12 choppers each) — armed or attack, reconnaissance and tactical lift — each for all its 13 corps as well as "a flight" of five fixed-wing aircraft each for its six regional or operational commands.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 02 Apr 2013 09:23

pankajs wrote:IAF, not Army, will get first of the Apaches attack helicopters: Govt
NEW DELHI: The defence ministry has rejected the Army's case for "ownership" of the 22 heavy-duty Apache helicopters, armed with deadly Hellfire and Stinger missiles, which India is all set to acquire from the US in a $1.4 billion contract.

The MoD, citing defence minister A K Antony's approval, has held the 22 AH-64D Apache Longbow gunships will "remain" with the IAF because the procurement deal was an "ongoing" one, which did not fall into category of "future" acquisitions, said officialsn undeterred Army, however, chalked out plans to have its own "mini" air force in the years ahead. Apart from creating a permanent cadre for the Army Aviation Corps, the force is raising "aviation brigades" for each of its three "strike" and 10 "pivot" corps.

The Army currently operates 195 Chetak/Chetak light observation helicopters as well as 70 Dhruv advanced light helicopters. Its long-term plans include three helicopter squadrons (10-12 choppers each) — armed or attack, reconnaissance and tactical lift — each for all its 13 corps as well as "a flight" of five fixed-wing aircraft each for its six regional or operational commands.

maybe army can get another 22 Apache for commonality with IAF Apache 64d

this will created a good 44-50 units of heavy weight choppers ...

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 02 Apr 2013 09:37

tushar_m wrote: maybe army can get another 22 Apache for commonality with IAF Apache 64d

this will created a good 44-50 units of heavy weight choppers ...

Army should buy LCH! Why is it necessary to have Apaches?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2013 10:03

H&D and to prove a point army will surely get 23 = 22 + 1 apaches and tell the AF it does not need gunship support anymore.

they are busy with plans to expand and beef up the AAC in all respects. a order of around 50 hawks and 50 frogfoot-MKI for CAS would set off the next round of the WWF fight shaun michaels vs the undertaker

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Apr 2013 10:22

alexis wrote:Army should buy LCH! Why is it necessary to have Apaches?

It is already doing so - with around 114 to be acquired by IAF and IA. And this is the first tranche.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2013 10:31

HAL needs to be funded to work on a heavier "growth" version of the Dhruv for the medium helo role . we cannot forever keep importing this vital utility segment . bigger engines are off the shelf available from turbomeca or allied-signal. model on something proven like the blackhawk / Mi17 and keep the cockpit and avionics common with dhruv. atleast by 2025 we should FOC this bird and end our dependence for this medium role.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 02 Apr 2013 10:46

James B wrote:

Wow! this is some agility even apparent to untrained eyes like mine. Super cool.