Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 30 Jan 2013 07:57

while IAF can go for a dedicated fleet, they should also opt for a fleet of civil airlines that are ready fit with mounts such that they can receive the stand with the radar dome (stored in reserve) at short notice. The signal processing units in the form factor of regular ULDs could be loaded in the cargo hold. Satcom then completes the communication loop with ground based consoles, the sats used as relay units could be mini sats that can be launched on demand.

if consoles that are thousands of miles away can be used to control UAVs, so can consoles on AWACS be located at camouflaged ground locations.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2013 08:02

I think what vks meant was the aew pgm has met some critical milestone and moved from proto demo phase into product test and delivery phase now. Work started years ago.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 30 Jan 2013 08:13

Singha ji, there was news of GoI sanctioning funds to DRDO for AWACS with 360 degree coverage recently.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2013 09:21

oh ok, so looks like idea is to develop our own Awacs radar under this platform using either dish or balance beam/T shape.
its a logical progression path up from the current AEW pgm. throw in some rivet joint mission eqpt also hopefully.

btw the huge system test and integration facility of CABS houses a mock AEW balance beam on its roof. saw it yday while passing by.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 30 Jan 2013 15:54

Saraswat's statement about the 270 degree scan angle of the AEW seems to confirm what was mentioned in 2009-10 by Dr. Christopher and other scientists that they had been able to squeeze more performance at wide angles than the planned 120 degree field of view of the array (ie 240 degrees total).

I'm guessing they're possibly looking at developing the knowledge and confidence gained from the AEW programs to create a more capable AWACS. The AEW is great, but as has been mentioned, it doesn't have 360 coverage (technically, at any given time, its only 120-135 degrees, since only one face is radiating at a time), and they might want to add augmented Signal processing and battle management capabilities. Probably they might be looking to add some limited JSTARS like capabilities (although I'm not sure how much of that they'd want to do, since it'd complicate the system, and might be better done with a more specialized separate system).

Overall, great buildup from DRDO. These programs, along with the 2nd generation of DRDO missiles (the post IGMDP projects - Prahaar, Nirbhay, Shaurya, K-15, Brahmos) indicate a high level of confidence. It shows that we have gained traction and turned the corner on a lot of technologies, in order to allow us to move from a largely first time revolutionary mode of design to more sophisticated evolutionary and incremental developments. Kudos.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 21 Feb 2013 10:16

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... e_deal.htm

Bangalore. The Indian Air Force (IAF) is looking at 10 AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control Systems Aircraft) on western platforms.

Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne told India Strategic that right now, IAF is negotiating for two IL 76-based AWACS with Israel, in addition to the three already acquired. But the future platforms would be western, either the Boeing 767 or Airbus A330. The Air Chief also released the Aero India editions of India Strategic and the Show Daily.

Significantly, he said, the radar systems would be provided by DRDO, either indigenously or through collaboration. The idea is to develop indigenous capability, something the IAF and the other Services, Army and Navy also support.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 21 Feb 2013 10:50

Wow... very interesting. So we're looking at what...

5 Phalcon on Il-76,
10 DRDO AWACS on western platform
6 DRDO AEW&CS on EMB-145

thats 21 platforms in total, which includes 15 full platforms.

In comparison, USA has 32 E-3s, NATO has 18. 21 is a very good number. Needs to be augmented with a good number of long range maritime surveillance aircraft to help in patrolling the entire IOR.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Feb 2013 11:42

he didnt say if the 10 would have totally indian radar. most likely it would be a souped up elta radar with indian support systems onboard.

the EMB145 will eventually number around 20 for sure, cheaper and gap fillers are needed all over place. but they must finish it quick and meet all the benchmarks..easier said than done for such a complex platform.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 21 Feb 2013 11:55

k prasad wrote:Wow... very interesting. So we're looking at what...

5 Phalcon on Il-76,
10 DRDO AWACS on western platform
6 DRDO AEW&CS on EMB-145

thats 21 platforms in total, which includes 15 full platforms.

In comparison, USA has 32 E-3s, NATO has 18. 21 is a very good number. Needs to be augmented with a good number of long range maritime surveillance aircraft to help in patrolling the entire IOR.

On that 6 CABS AEW&C - two people from CABS gave me conflicting information on this. One person said that they would go straight to the AWACS and not have another batch of 3 and the second guy said a second batch was most probably going to be built.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 21 Feb 2013 12:01

Me thinks the 2nd batch will get built for getting things up on a second bigger platform will involve time, effort and delays.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 21 Feb 2013 12:06

Singha wrote:the EMB145 will eventually number around 20 for sure, cheaper and gap fillers are needed all over place. but they must finish it quick and meet all the benchmarks..easier said than done for such a complex platform.

I think Aerostat-borne radar systems will be used as ‘gap fillers’ for their extended persistence on missions and low operating cost.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 21 Feb 2013 16:57

Singha wrote:he didnt say if the 10 would have totally indian radar. most likely it would be a souped up elta radar with indian support systems onboard.

the EMB145 will eventually number around 20 for sure, cheaper and gap fillers are needed all over place. but they must finish it quick and meet all the benchmarks..easier said than done for such a complex platform.

Well, the quote was "Significantly, he said, the radar systems would be provided by DRDO, either indigenously or through collaboration. The idea is to develop indigenous capability, something the IAF and the other Services, Army and Navy also support.". So it does indicate atleast some level of indigenous development. Given our capabilities in the radar field, it might not be too much of a stretch to imagine that a large part of the work will be indigenous. Unless they are looking at some extremely high tech stuff like ultra miniaturized TRMs.

The Embraer AEW numbers does seem fairly unclear doesnt it? 3, 6, 20... either which way, anything more than 20 platforms, with atleast 10-15 full performance 360 degree coverage AWACS, and we're looking at a fairly good alright across our borders, especially when augmented with the aerostats and ground based long range surveillance radars.

I assume a 60-75% service rate at any given time (<15 aircraft), with about 7 hours time on station at the very least (2 - 2.5 aircraft for each zone), with a 300 km detection range which means we could cover about 500 km of border coverage with a single aircraft at a given time, this works out to about 3000-3500 km of border that can be continually monitored by the 20 aircraft fleet, which, given the non-linear nature of the border, should technically suffice for China and Pakistan (although i can't be sure). Which means we'll need more numbers for coverage of the IOR and Andaman and Nicobar region. Time on station could be improved by using IFR. Although this will require us to buy more refuellers (something i guess we need anyway).

I'm sure that vivek_ahuja saar will be able to provide a much more accurate and detailed analysis of the level of coverage we are looking at, with that fleet.

I think that a with a fleet of 30 AWACS aircraft, 12-24 (the upper number being proposed) P-8s and a few JSTARS type aircraft, we'll have a fairly formidable airborne detection and C4I setup, especially when combined with the ground based radars and Aerostats. One critical aspect though, will be interoperability and integration - with so many proliferating system types, plugging them all into a common C4I grid will be an important part of determining how effective our war machinery can be.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 21 Feb 2013 18:02

merlin wrote:.... and the second guy said a second batch was most probably going to be built.

Second batch is probably dependent on the performance of the first batch. Lets hope it does well as another three EMB-145 AEW are going to inexpensive and there will be parts commonality (low running costs).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Feb 2013 19:05

Wow... very interesting. So we're looking at what...

5 Phalcon on Il-76,

I read it as the next two Phalocns on a "Western" platform.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Feb 2013 22:07

do not forget the sea as well. whatever awacs we have need to patrol over the sea as well during a war. IN will need to borrow from this fleet. the P8 air search is basic vs a proper awacs.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Feb 2013 22:31

NRao wrote:
Wow... very interesting. So we're looking at what...

5 Phalcon on Il-76,
I read it as the next two Phalocns on a "Western" platform.

The IAF chief has categorically said at multiple locations recently that the negotiations with Israel for the next 2 is IL-76 based. Most probably, after that AWACs will be from the INDIA-AWACs. I remember reading news there that they will be on western platforms.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Feb 2013 23:58

indranilroy wrote:The IAF chief has categorically said at multiple locations recently that the negotiations with Israel for the next 2 is IL-76 based. Most probably, after that AWACs will be from the INDIA-AWACs. I remember reading news there that they will be on western platforms.

I have posted comments from IAF Chief in Military Aviation thread - After the 5 x Phalcon AWACS, next three are to be DRDO AEW&C with two expected to enter service by 2017. DRDO has been mandated as of December 2011 to develop indigenous AWACS.

gnair · Post by **gnair** » 22 Feb 2013 05:28

A good number of the EMB-145 or Gulf Stream class platforms should be emphasized along with the larger Western ones and IL's.
Big is great but airfields that support heavies are few and far between. And with a full load of fuel for an extended rendezvous, we are looking at runways in excess of 7,000 feet with accompanying support facilities and significant fuel storage. And if i were an adversary, my objective would be to take that out of action with long range targeting. And it's a difficult proposition to operate heavies, just in case you have to steel-plate runway craters, should the worst case scenario occur.
On the other hand, an EMB-145 or G-IV based platform would be able to quickly get off secondary or even tier 3 airfields with 5,000 feet strips and minimal ramp support, to head to the extended battlefield region. So medium size, extended range platforms can become the dark horse in difficult situations. They also do better at low level flying (4,000-6,000 ft) to mask in the electronic clutter.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 22 Feb 2013 11:36

The EMB-145 based AEW&C that India operates have a disadvantage of having a max range of 300 kms when only one side of the antenna array is used, when both are used its 200 kms. If it operates about 150 kms inside Indian territory where it can be defended against attack, it can only look about 150 kms inside enemy territory, may not give adequate early warning. For platinum grade assets it would be good to have atleast 400 to 500 kms range against fighter sized targets.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Feb 2013 12:39

ideally IN can buy its own fleet of EMB145 to patrol and cover all its operating areas, but IN will need a small fleet of refulers as well.

in the end IN will need it own awacs and refuelers , its inevitable....and imo they should get some PAKDA as well to truly transform into a oceanic strike force.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 22 Feb 2013 12:58

Singha saar on IN's requirements

India Considers Advanced Hawkeye for AEW&C Need

The Indian Navy’s current requirement is for one squadron of four AEW aircraft with two options for two more, as spelt out in a request for information (RFI) issued in May 2010. It is believed the navy will require 12 more AEW aircraft in future.

India is among the first countries for which the Advanced Hawkeye capability has been approved for export by the U.S. government. The RFI states the aircraft should be able to perform ship and land-based operations.

The AN/APY-9 radar, with a two-generation leap in the Indian military’s existing capability, is the backbone of this aircraft and provides greater flexibility and significantly improved detection and tracking over all terrains. India’s requirements might necessitate a wet outer wing panel to give it an 8-hour range. “We are in continuing dialogue with the Indian Navy,” said Trudell. The country’s small requirement, however, is likely to create a challenge to honor offset commitments.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Feb 2013 13:02

6 hawkeyes will be a good number to start with. as it stands the 3+2 Phalcons will be stretched even maintaining a 24x7 patrol over 2 zones and none can be spared for IN at all.

srin · Post by **srin** » 22 Feb 2013 13:30

Assuming the Hawkeyes can do STOBAR ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Feb 2013 14:52

I was thinking of a land based role only.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 23 Feb 2013 15:05

My Latest Photo:

Wing Commander Pradeep Batra taking-off in IAF's Brand New Embraer 145 AEW&C ►

[HI RES]

I was fortunate to be introduced to him while walking out for lunch with Sanjay Simha

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 23 Feb 2013 22:20

Vishal Jolapara wrote:My Latest Photo:

Wing Commander Pradeep Batra taking-off in IAF's Brand New Embraer 145 AEW&C ►

...
I was fortunate to be introduced to him while walking out for lunch with Sanjay Simha

Did he share any interesting tidbits?

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 26 Feb 2013 03:38

putnanja wrote:
Vishal Jolapara wrote:My Latest Photo:

Wing Commander Pradeep Batra taking-off in IAF's Brand New Embraer 145 AEW&C ►

...
I was fortunate to be introduced to him while walking out for lunch with Sanjay Simha

Did he share any interesting tidbits?

No, because our meeting was only for 4~6 mins.
We exchanged greetings & contacts and had planned to meet at leisure later, that later never came for either as we were both very busy doing what we were there for

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 09 Mar 2013 15:00

DRDO gets nod to develop ‘eye in sky’
http://newindianexpress.com/nation/article1494013.ece
The project will be called AWACS (India) and is envisaged to complete the work in 84 months from the date for formal sanction of the programme, he said

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Mar 2013 15:59

7 years may be realistic given our tech level but i fear too long a practicable time.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 16 Mar 2013 14:20

Embraer flight-testing India's last AEW EMB-145

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 May 2013 09:58

Flying radars DRDO AWACS

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 May 2013 10:40

Exterior is nice but drdo need to ioc this thing quickly...we needed it day before yesterday.

Else emergency imports of hawkeye is inevitable

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 May 2013 12:59

Singha wrote:ideally IN can buy its own fleet of EMB145 to patrol and cover all its operating areas, but IN will need a small fleet of refulers as well.

in the end IN will need it own awacs and refuelers , its inevitable....and imo they should get some PAKDA as well to truly transform into a oceanic strike force.

not unless we have a strategic air command type set up with tankers, transports and long range bombers/strike that support both IAF and IN

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Jun 2013 11:02

Radome for AWACs starting to take shape:

RFI issued for Design and Development of Radome for Airborne Surveillance

CABS has been entrusted with Design and Development of Airborne Surveillance Systems. The envisaged system will have uniform surveillance performance over full 360 degree coverage. The front end of the Radar and the Identification Friend or foe (IFF) systems shall be housed in an ellipsoidal radome on top of the fuselage installed using pylons. In addition suitable mechanical structures to transfer the air loads will be designed and housed in the radome. The radome also houses parts of the liquid cooling system(piping structure) and ladder system for maintenance.

Diameter of the radome (of the order of) 10.0 m
Height of the radome(of the order of) 2.0 m
Radome shape Ellipsoidal
Weight of the radome Shells (about) 1500Kg
Electromagnetically transparent in S and L band
Withstand aerodynamic loads on the radome as per flight envelope of wide body aircraft.
The radome shall have lighting detectors/dischargers and should have surface which will not permit ice accumulations.

The radome shall have 4 shells (3 in case of design change) and shall be easy to install /de-install as seen in figure 2.

The envisaged will have 4 faces arranged in a rectangular /square configuration (see Fig 3). The shells shall have suitable attachments to the antenna panels/supporting structures.

vic · Post by **vic** » 10 Jun 2013 12:11

I think we should base our AWACS on MRTA platform in future.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jun 2013 13:21

MRTA would be too small in payload and range probably.

recently ACM confirmed that 3 more c130j is ordered , with potentially 6 more options and 6 A330 MRRT will be ordered...this is the heavies list during this fiscal plus ongoing delivery of P8 and C17.

I think we can probably use a A321-neo airframe or inshallah a A330 as the base of domestic AWACS ... it will be expected from day1 to be more badass than the Phalcons. the bar is high.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Jun 2013 14:49

^^^

Just how many types of AEW are the IAF planing to have.

1) Phalcone
2) The Cabs AEW

Is this going to be a development of the CABS AEW. Or is this some thing totally new.

Also whatever, happened to the radome design that was designed for the ASP Avro. Can the design not be used as a starting place for this design?

sum · Post by **sum** » 10 Jun 2013 14:58

IIRC, this is the AWACs replacement for the Phalcon which was announced and sanctioned last year end(??)

A bigger scale than the smaller AEW ( which isnt full-blown AWACs) in progress currently.

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Jun 2013 03:56

Pratyush wrote:^^^

Just how many types of AEW are the IAF planing to have.

1) Phalcone
2) The Cabs AEW

Is this going to be a development of the CABS AEW. Or is this some thing totally new.

Also whatever, happened to the radome design that was designed for the ASP Avro. Can the design not be used as a starting place for this design?

They probably did.

A lot of the components developed for the CABS AEW will be reused and will be extended upon since bigger aircraft will have more power and space. The systems will also be iteratively upgraded.

As per reports, the IAF is looking for a bigger AEW (or AWACS) in the size of B737 or larger. They wanted the CABS to be changed to this but DRDO won the argument that it should the next iteration after the R&D had completed on the 3 CABS AEW.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 08 Aug 2013 16:16

Up!

Any update on AEW (Emb-145)? It's going to be 1 year since CABS received the first aircraft.