The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

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ShauryaT
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby ShauryaT » 27 Feb 2013 22:39

RajeshA wrote:ShauryaT ji,

even if you understand Varna according to Gunas and Karmas, I still think it is irrelevant. Can a soldier then not be married to a teacher?
Professions only have a loose relationship and are examples that help in context. The idea here is to match what values one will appreciate of the other. It is easier when these values and choices are common for couples. Varnas are meaningless by professions in the societies we live in and hence examples of profession alone are poor examples. For, in such a varna driven society a teacher dedicated to the idea of gaining and imparting knowledge is treated as the highest epitome of service, respected and valued as such in society. This is decisively not the case. This teacher has forsaken the pursuit of Artha, using his knowledge and uses his knowledge gained for the benefit of society. Now, a soldier in a varna driven society has forsaken the pursuit of wealth yet pursues power. This soldier has effectively forsaken the pursuit of wealth and dedicated his life to the service of society as he/she best can. As such the welfare of the soldier becomes the responsibility of society with commensurate respect and value. We do not live in such a society and hence many able and capable do not pursue careers in such professions. The overwhelming pressure to gain economic prosperity comes at the cost of knowledge and service. Our societal conditions are not based on a Varna drive society and hence comparisons based on professions are not sufficient. A teacher could also be minting money, by working in a for profit setup. I consider most Doctors to be Shudras not Brahmins.

So, first pre-condition is to have a Varna based society and yes, in a Varna based society, I would not advise a teacher to be married to solider. Go back to the PuruSharthas. There is an inherent mismatch in objectives. Now, would you bar it by law? No. But, for most such cross Varna matches would not make sense.
Last edited by ShauryaT on 27 Feb 2013 22:49, edited 1 time in total.

RajeshA
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 27 Feb 2013 22:48

ShauryaT wrote:
RajeshA wrote:I am not saying teenagers should be allowed to have sex. On the contrary, but their Brahmchari life should be supplemented with a lot more freedom to interact - go out together, go clubbing, drink in measure, etc..
This is largely a function of how secure families feel in a society. Internal security is a pre-condition. Which parent in New Delhi would feel comfortable with such freedoms for the young? Ditto was the case under Mughal rule.

Even in Pakistan, there is proven research that women have more freedoms in tightly knit Jatis that can provide protection to their women folk. However there is a Laskshman Rekha. Attempts to cross it shall meet resistance. Suppressing natural attractions shall face rebellion. Good sense and judgment is what one relies on to attain balance.


ShauryaT ji,

the tightly knit Jaatis are a thing of the past. Urbanization, mobility, cross-jaati institutions, e.g. education institutes, work-place, military, etc. all means we need to build new systems for stability and security in society.

The security for women in society would have to be a cross-jati enterprise, i.e. if jati means anything anymore or in the coming future. Moreover we need to change our perception of women itself. It is best to give them self-defense and martial arts training.

RajeshA
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 27 Feb 2013 22:52

ShauryaT ji,

mostly couples get it right on their own. They look for others who are on the same wavelength. So their "Varnas" are matched automatically.

What however one can work on is on imparting some values of old to the people when they are younger, so that whichever be their "Varna"-wavelength, they have a much deeper relationship with each other, and know how to better master the turbulence of life together.

ShauryaT
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby ShauryaT » 27 Feb 2013 22:58

Jaatis are nothing but ways to form close knit communities and extended communities. As such, Jatis will never go away. The mistake is for society to use Jatis as an organizing structure in a political context based on professions, status, locations or varna or combination of the same. Jatis will never go away. The idea should always be to keep them fairly fungible and prevent ossification and let them be what they always were meant to be, community builders. There is an inverse relationship between the effectivity of a state to provide good governance and ossification of Jatis.

ShauryaT
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby ShauryaT » 27 Feb 2013 23:04

RajeshA wrote:ShauryaT ji,

mostly couples get it right on their own.
Incorrect. Most couples get it right with the assistance of their elders and families.

johneeG
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby johneeG » 27 Feb 2013 23:05

There is something interesting to ponder on:

There are 4 festivals: Valentine's Day, April Fool's Day, Halloween, Christmas.

I think all these 4 festivals are Pagan festivals originally which were later given christian coloring by church.

These festivals have corresponding Hindu festivals.

Valentine's day == Vasant(Basant) Utsav (Spring Festival) & Holi.
April Fool's day (original New Year) == Ugadi or Gudi Padva (Hindu New Year).
Halloween == Pitru Amavasya.
Christmas == Makara Sankranti.

Pumpkins play a special role in Halloween. Why? According to the Hindu literature, Pumpkins(Kushmanda) are the favourite food of pitris(deceased ancestors). Pitri Amavasya is day, just a few days before Dusherra, which is marked for performing Shraaddha of the pitris. Halloween falls very close to this.

The differences in the exact dates may be explained due to the changes in the calendar. Most of the Indian festivals(except Makara Sankranti) follow Lunar Calendar. So, the dates can vary.

Holi and Basant Utsav are the days when young girls and boys enjoy themselves. Romans used to follow similar festival(most probably they inherited it from the earlier cultures). This was given a christian makeover by the church.

Similarly, Makara Sankranti was made it into the birthday of Jesus, while Sunday was made into the holyday.

The connections are obvious. There is a definite Hindu connection. So, the theory is that once upon a time all the humanity followed a single religion(Hinduism) with some local variations. The newer ideologies sprang from Hinduism(or some derivative of Hinduism). These newer ideologies altered/erased the local customs. But, there are still certain points that could not be altered/erased which reveal the common Hindu past of the entire world.

---

There has been a serious debate on Dharma on this thread.

In Hinduism, there are 2 types of Dharma:
a) Samanya Dharma (General)
b) Vishesha Dharma (Special)

Samanya Dharma(General):

It seems, according to Manu:

ahimsa satyam asteyam shaucham indriyanigraham
etam samasikam dharmam chaaturvarnye abhravin manuh

Ahimsa(Non-violence), Satyam(Truth), Asteyam(Non-Stealing), Shaucham(Cleanliness) and Indriya-nigraham(Control of senses) are the Dharma of all the 4 varnas.

The general Dharma applicable to all are:
Ahimsa(Non-violence),
Satyam(Truth),
Asteyam(Non-Stealing),
Shaucham(Cleanliness) and
Indriya-nigraham(Control of senses)

The priority is also clear. Ahimsa(Non-Violence) has the highest priority(over and above Satya/Truth also).
Ahimsa Paramo Dharmah.
Ahimsa is the highest Dharma.

So, when there is a conflict between Ahimsa(Non-Violence) and Satya(Truth), then Ahimsa get higher priority.

Ahimsa(Non-violence) can cover topics like: Murder, genocide, harassment(of any kind), injury(direct/indirect), abortion(killing of foetus), ...etc.
Satya(Truth) is self-explanatory. It can cover topics like: Cheating, scams, misrepresentations(specially in public discourses), breaking the agreements, adulterating the items ...etc.
Asteya(Not-stealing) can cover topics like: stealing, bribes, extra-marital affairs(stealing others' wives/husbands/girl-friends/boy-friends ... etc).

The above three are guarding against the wrong actions.
Shaucha(cleanliness) is a quality that is to be encouraged and inculcated.

Shaucha can cover topics like: personal hygiene, keep the environment clean and safe, pollution(air/water/land/sound...etc).

Finally, the bonus quality which is to be respected, admired and rewarded.
Indriya Nigraha: Control of senses(including mind). Indriya Nigraha forms the basis for all other Dharmas. One who is hankering after the sensual enjoyments would hardly care about law or dharma.

These 5 are the general rules for all.
Then, there are special rules. The special rules are based on the time, place, circumstance and subject. It varies from person to person, from gender to gender, from place to place and time to time.

The Special rules have higher priority than the General rules. So, a soldier, whose special duty is to kill, is exempted from the general rule of Ahimsa.

What happens when a person is forced to perform one himsa(violence) or the other?
This is not a hypothetical question, it is based on the reality of life. Ahimsa is a huge topic, so briefly: The reality of the world is that there is conflict and violence in all dealings directly or indirectly. So, no one can abjure violence completely. So, the rule is that as long as one is acting with in one's own needs/duties, himsa(violence) is alright. For example, when a tiger kills a deer, its alright. Similarly, when a soldier kills an enemy, its alright.

A person must not harm anyone(even a plant or animal or insect) beyond one's need/duty. There is a story of Vidura's past life in MB. If one harms even insects, unnecessarily, then it accounts as severe violence. If one kills other men also, as part of duty/need(self-defense), then such a violence is negligible.

Killing oneself(suicide) is considered highest himsa(violence). Suicide is a bigger offense than the Murder. Murder/injury of a close relative/friend is a bigger offense than killing a stranger. Killing/harming someone who helped you in the past is a great offense.

The punishments given for the same crime are not equal. The one with higher privileges gets higher punishment for the same crime.

A robbery by an uneducated poor hungry guy is not the same as the robbery by an educated rich powerful guy. That means the punishments for the rich and powerful(elites) would be more severe than the punishments for the ordinary.

The taxes are equal to all. 1/6th of one's earning. No indirect taxes. The good ruler must take care of the invalids in one's country. The ruler must encourage the entrepreneurs. He must create situations such that the loans are easily available. The ruler must take care that the farmers are provided by seeds and fertilizers. The farmers must also have the chance to sell their produce for fair amounts.

This is the Hindu system.

"Narada said--'Is the wealth thou art earning being spent on proper objects? Doth thy mind take pleasure in virtue? Art thou enjoying the pleasures of life? Doth not thy mind sink under their weight? O chief of men, continuest thou in the noble conduct consistent with religion and wealth practised by thy ancestors towards the three classes of subjects, (viz., good, indifferent, and bad)? Never injurest thou religion for the sake of wealth, or both religion and wealth for the sake of pleasure that easily seduces? O thou foremost of victorious men ever devoted to the good of all, conversant as thou art with the timeliness of everything, followest thou religion, wealth, pleasure and salvation dividing thy time judiciously? O sinless one, with the six attributes of kings (viz., cleverness of speech, readiness in providing means, intelligence in dealing with the foe, memory, and acquaintance with morals and politics), dost thou attend to the seven means (viz., sowing dissensions, chastisement, conciliation, gifts, incantations, medicine and magic)? Examinest thou also, after a survey of thy own strength and weakness, the fourteen possessions of thy foes? These are the country, forts, cars, elephants, cavalry, foot-soldiers, the principal officials of state, the zenana, food supply, computations of the army and income, the religious treatises in force, the accounts of state, the revenue, wine-shops and other secret enemies. Attendest thou to the eight occupations (of agriculture, trade, &c), having examined, O thou foremost of victorious monarchs, thy own and thy enemy's means, and having made peace with thy enemies? O bull of the Bharata race, thy seven principal officers of state (viz., the governor of the citadel, the commander of
forces, the chief judge, the general in interior command, the chief priest, the chief physician, and the chief astrologer), have not, I hope, succumbed to the influence of thy foes, nor have they, I hope, become idle in consequence of the wealth they have earned? They are, I hope, all obedient to thee. Thy counsels, I hope, are never divulged by thy trusted spies in disguise, by thyself or by thy ministers? Thou ascertainest, I hope, what thy friends, foes and strangers are about? Makest thou peace and makest thou war at proper times? Observest thou neutrality towards strangers and persons that are neutral towards thee? And, O hero, hast thou made persons like thyself, persons that are old, continent in behaviour, capable of understanding what should be done and what should not, pure as regards birth and blood, and devoted to thee, thy ministers? O Bharata, the victories of kings can be attributed to good counsels. O child, is thy kingdom protected by ministers learned in Sastras, keeping their counsels close? Are thy foes unable to injure it? Thou hast not become the slave of sleep? Wakest thou at the proper time?
Conversant with pursuits yielding profit, thinkest thou, during the small hours of night, as to what thou shouldst do and what thou shouldst not do the next day? Thou settlest nothing alone, nor takest counsels with many? The counsels thou hast resolved upon, do not become known all over thy kingdom?
Commencest thou soon to accomplish measures of great utility that are easy of accomplishment? Such measures are never obstructed? Keepest thou the agriculturists not out of thy sight? They do not fear to approach thee? Achievest thou thy measures through persons that are trusted incorruptible, and possessed of practical experience? And, O brave king. I hope, people only know the measures already accomplished by thee and those that have been partially accomplished and are awaiting completion, but not those that are only in contemplation and uncommenced? Have experienced teachers capable of explaining the causes of things and learned in the science of morals and every branch of learning, been appointed to instruct the princes and the chiefs of the army? Buyest thou a single learned man by giving in exchange a thousand ignorant individuals? The man that is learned conferreth the greatest benefit in seasons of distress. Are thy forts always filled with treasure, food, weapons, water, engines and instruments, as also with engineers and bowmen? Even a single minister that is intelligent, brave, with his passions under complete control, and possessed of wisdom and judgment, is capable of conferring the highest prosperity on a king or a king's son. I ask thee, therefore, whether there is even one such minister with thee? Seekest thou to know everything about the eighteen Tirthas of the foe and fifteen of thy own by means of three and three spies all unacquainted with one another? O slayer of all foes, watchest thou all thy enemies with care and attention, and unknown to them? Is the priest thou honourest, possessed of humility, and purity of blood, and renown, and without jealousy and illiberality?
Hath any well-behaved, intelligent, and guileless Brahmana, well-up in the ordinance, been employed by thee in the performance of thy daily rites before the sacred fire, and doth he remind thee in proper time as to when thy homa should be performed? Is the astrologer thou hast employed
skilled in reading physiognomy, capable of interpreting omens, and competent to neutralise the effect of the disturbances of nature? Have respectable servants been employed by thee in offices that are respectable, indifferent ones in indifferent offices, and low ones in offices that are low? Hast thou appointed to high offices ministers that are guileless and of well conduct for generations and above the common run? Oppressest thou not thy people with cruel and severe punishment? And, O bull of the Bharata race, do thy ministers rule thy kingdom under thy orders? Do thy ministers ever slight thee like sacrificial priests slighting men that are fallen (and incapable of performing any more sacrifices) or like wives slighting husbands that are proud and incontinent in their behaviour? Is the commander of thy forces possessed of sufficient confidence, brave, intelligent, patient, well-conducted, of good birth, devoted to thee, and competent? Treatest thou with consideration and regard the chief officers of thy army that are skilled in every kind of welfare, are forward, well-behaved, and endued with prowess?
Givest thou to thy troops their sanctioned rations and pay in the appointed time? Thou dost not oppress them by withholding these? Knowest thou that the misery caused by arrears of pay and irregularity in the distribution of rations driveth the troops to mutiny, and that is called by the learned to be one of the greatest of mischiefs? Are all the principal high-born men devoted to thee, and ready with cheerfulness to lay down their lives in battle for thy sake? I hope no single individual of passions uncontrolled is ever permitted by thee to rule as he likes a number of concerns at the same time appertaining to the army? Is any servant of thine, who hath accomplished well a particular business by the employment of special ability, disappointed in obtaining from thee a little more regard, and an increase of food and pay? I hope thou rewardest persons of learning and humility, and skill in every kind of knowledge with gifts of wealth and honour proportionate to their qualifications. Dost thou support, O bull in the Bharata race, the wives and children of men that have given their lives for thee and have been distressed on thy account? Cherishest thou, O son of Pritha, with paternal affection the foe that hath been weakened, or him also that hath sought thy shelter, having been vanquished in battle? O lord of Earth, art thou equal unto all men, and can every one approach thee without fear, as if thou wert their mother and father? And O bull of the Bharata race, marchest thou, without loss of time, and reflecting well upon three kinds of
forces, against thy foe when thou hearest that he is in distress? O subjugator of all foes beginnest thou thy march when the time cometh, having taken into consideration all the omens you might see, the resolutions thou hast made, and that the ultimate victory depends upon the twelve mandalas (such as reserves, ambuscades, &c, and payment of pay to the troops in advance)? And, O persecutor of all foes, givest thou gems and jewels, unto the principal officers of enemy, as they deserve, without thy enemy's knowledge? O son of Pritha, seekest thou to conquer thy incensed foes that are slaves to their passions, having first conquered thy own soul and obtained the mastery over thy own senses?
Before thou marchest out against thy foes, dost thou properly employ the four arts of reconciliation, gift (of wealth) producing disunion, and application of force? O monarch, goest thou out against thy enemies, having first strengthened thy own kingdom? And having gone out against them, exertest thou to the utmost to obtain victory over them? And having conquered them, seekest thou to protect them with care? Are thy army consisting of four kinds of forces, viz., the regular troops, the allies, the mercenaries, and the irregulars, each furnished with the eight ingredients, viz., cars, elephants, horses, offices, infantry, camp-followers, spies possessing a thorough knowledge of the country, and ensigns led out against thy enemies after having been well trained by superior officers? O oppressor of all foes, O great king, I hope thou slayest thy foes without regarding their seasons of reaping and of famine? O king, I hope thy servants and agents in thy own kingdom and in the kingdoms of thy foes continue to look after their respective duties and to protect one another. O monarch, I hope trusted servants have been employed by thee to look after thy food, the robes thou wearest and the perfumes thou usest. I hope, O king, thy treasury, barns, stables arsenals, and women's apartments, are all protected by servants devoted to thee and ever seeking thy welfare. I hope, O monarch, thou protectest first thyself from thy domestic and public servants, then from those servants of thy relatives and from one another. Do thy servants, O king, ever speak to thee in the forenoon regarding thy extravagant expenditure in respect of thy drinks, sports, and women? Is thy expenditure always covered by a fourth, a third or a half of thy income? Cherishest thou always, with food and wealth, relatives, superiors, merchants, the aged, and other proteges, and the distressed? Do the accountants and clerks employed by thee in looking after thy income and expenditure, always appraise thee every day in the forenoon of thy income and expenditure?
Dismissest thou without fault servants accomplished in business and popular and devoted to thy welfare? O Bharata, dost thou employ superior, indifferent, and low men, after examining them well in offices they deserve? O monarch, employest thou in thy business persons that are thievish or open to temptation, or hostile, or minors? Persecutest thou thy kingdom by the help of thievish or covetous men, or minors, or women? Are the agriculturists in thy kingdom contented. Are large tanks and lakes constructed all over thy kingdom at proper distances, without agriculture being in thy realm entirely dependent on the showers of heaven? Are the agriculturists in thy kingdom wanting in either seed or food? Grantest thou with kindness loans (of seed-grains) unto the tillers, taking only a fourth in excess of every measure by the hundred? O child, are the four professions of agriculture, trade, cattle-rearing, and lending at interest, carried on by honest men? Upon these O monarch, depends the happiness of thy people. O king, do the five brave and wise men, employed in the five offices of protecting the city, the citadel, the merchants, and the agriculturists, and punishing the criminals, always benefit thy kingdom by working in union with one another? For the protection of thy city, have the villages been made like towns, and the hamlets and outskirts of villages like villages? Are all these entirely under thy supervision and sway? Are thieves and robbers that sack thy town pursued by thy police over the even and uneven parts of thy kingdom?
Consolest thou women and are they protected in thy realm? I hope thou placest not any confidence in them, nor divulgest any secret before any of them? O monarch, having heard of any danger and having reflected on it also, liest thou in the inner apartments enjoying every agreeable object? Having slept during the second and the third divisions of the night, thinkest thou of religion and profit in the fourth division wakefully. O son of Pandu, rising from bed at the proper time and dressing thyself well, showest thou thyself to thy people, accompanied by ministers conversant with the auspiciousness or otherwise of moments? O represser of all foes, do men dressed in red and armed with swords and adorned with ornaments stand by thy side to protect thy person? O monarch! behavest thou like the god of justice himself unto those that deserve punishment and those that deserve worship, unto those that are dear to thee and those that thou likest not? O son of Pritha, seekest thou to cure bodily diseases by medicines and fasts, and mental illness with the advice of the aged? I hope that the physicians engaged in looking after thy health are well conversant with the eight kinds of treatment and are all attached and devoted to thee. Happeneth it ever, O monarch, that from covetousness or folly or pride thou failest to decide between the plaintiff and the defendant who have come to thee? Deprivest thou, through covetousness or folly, of their pensions the proteges who have sought thy shelter from trustfulness or love? Do the people that inhabit thy realm, bought by thy foes, ever seek to raise disputes with thee, uniting themselves with one another? Are those amongst thy foes that are feeble always repressed by the help of troops that are strong, by the help of both counsels and troops? Are all the principal chieftains (of thy empire) all devoted to thee? Are they ready to lay down their lives for thy sake, commanded by thee? Dost thou worship Brahmanas and wise men according to their merits in respect of various branches of learning? I tell thee, such worship is without doubt, highly beneficial to thee. Hast thou faith in the religion based on the three Vedas and practised by men who have gone before thee? Dost thou carefully follow the practices that were followed by them? Are accomplished Brahmanas entertained in thy house and in thy presence with nutritive and excellent food, and do they also obtain pecuniary gifts at the conclusion of those feasts? Dost thou, with passions under complete control and with singleness of mind, strive to perform the sacrifices called Vajapeya and Pundarika with their full complement of rites? Bowest thou unto thy relatives and superiors, the aged, the gods, the ascetics, the Brahmanas, and the tall trees (banian) in villages, that are of so much benefit to people? O sinless one, causest thou ever grief or anger in any one? Do priests capable of granting thee auspicious fruits ever stand by thy side? O sinless one, are thy inclinations and practices such as I have described them, and as always enhance the duration of life and spread one's renown and as always help the cause of religion, pleasure, and profit? He who conducteth himself according to this way, never findeth his kingdom distressed or afflicted; and that monarch, subjugating the whole earth, enjoyeth a high degree of felicity. O monarch, I hope, no well-behaved, pure-souled, and respected person is ever ruined and his life taken, on a false charge or theft, by thy ministers ignorant of Sastras and acting from greed? And, O bull among men, I hope thy ministers never from covetousness set free a real thief, knowing him to be such and having apprehended him with the booty about him? O Bharata, I hope, thy ministers are never won over by bribes, nor do they wrongly decide the disputes that arise between the rich and the poor.
Dost thou keep thyself free from the fourteen vices of kings, viz., atheism, untruthfulness, anger,
incautiousness, procrastination, non-visit to the wise, idleness, restlessness of mind, taking counsels with only one man, consultation with persons unacquainted with the science of profit, abandonment of a settled plan, divulgence of counsels, non-accomplishment of beneficial projects, and undertaking everything without reflection? By these, O king, even monarchs firmly seated on their thrones are ruined. Hath thy study of the Vedas, thy wealth and knowledge of the Sastras and marriage been fruitful?
From Mahabharata, Sabha Parva, Chapter 5. (K M Ganguli) Link

स कच्चिद् ब्राह्मणो विद्वान् धर्म नित्यो महा द्युतिः |
इक्ष्वाकूणाम् उपाध्यायो यथावत् तात पूज्यते || २-१००-९

9. "My darling! Are you treating respectfully as before that preceptor of the Ikshvakus, the one who knows the sacred scriptures, the one who knows the sacred scriptures, the learned who constantly keep up the virtues and he who has a great splendour?"

सा तात कच्चिच् च कौसल्या सुमित्रा च प्रजावती |
सुखिनी कच्चिद् आर्या च देवी नन्दति कैकयी || २-१००-१०

10. "My darling! I hope that Kausalya and Sumitra having good offspring are happy. I hope the venerable queen Kaikeyi is rejoicing."

कच्चिद् विनय सम्पन्नः कुल पुत्रो बहु श्रुतः |
अनसूयुर् अनुद्रष्टा सत्कृतः ते पुरोहितः || २-१००-११

11. "I hope that the preceptor (Suyajgna the son of Vasishta); who is rich in humility, a son of a noble family, who has a knowledge of many scriptures an unenvious person and who is full of insight, is duly honoured by you."

कच्चिद् अग्निषु ते युक्तो विधिज्नो मतिमान् ऋजुः |
हुतम् च होष्यमाणम् च काले वेदयते सदा || २-१००-१२

12. "I hope that a brahmin who is versed in the traditions, who is intelligent and just, employed in your sacred fires, always informs you in time, about a sacrificial fire having been or going to be fed with oblations."

कच्चिद्देवान् पित्ऱ्^ऊन् भृत्वान्गुरून् पितृसमानपि |
वृद्धांश्च तात वैद्यांश्च ब्राह्मणांश्चाभिमन्यसे || २-१००-१३

13. "My darling! I hope that you are holding in high esteem the gods, your ancestors, dependents and teachers of your father's age the doctors and the brahmins."

इषु अस्त्र वर सम्पन्नम् अर्थ शास्त्र विशारदम् |
सुधन्वानम् उपाध्यायम् कच्चित् त्वम् तात मन्यसे || २-१००-१४

14. "O, my darling! I hope that you treat with due respect; Sudhanva, your teacher in archery, who is furnished with the most excellent arrows and darts and well-versed in political economy."

कच्चिद् आत्म समाः शूराः श्रुतवन्तो जित इन्द्रियाः |
कुलीनाः च इन्गितज्नाः च कृताः ते तात मन्त्रिणः || २-१००-१५

15. "I hope that ministers who are valiant like you, learned, masters of their senses of noble birth and skilled interpreting internal sentiments by external gesture, are assigned to you."

मन्त्रो विजय मूलम् हि राज्नाम् भवति राघव |
सुसम्वृतो मन्त्र धरैर् अमात्यैः शास्त्र कोविदैः || २-१००-१६

16. "The source of victory for kings indeed comes from a concealed counsel by ministers, who are well-versed in political sciences and who can hide their thoughts within themselves."

कच्चिन् निद्रा वशम् न एषि कच्चित् काले विबुध्यसे |
कच्चिन् च अपर रात्रिषु चिन्तयस्य् अर्थ नैपुणम् || २-१००-१७

17. "I hope you do not fall a prey to excess of sleep and do wake up at appropriate time. I hope you contemplate during the later half of the night, about the adroitness of an action."

कच्चिन् मन्त्रयसे न एकः कच्चिन् न बहुभिः सह |
कच्चित् ते मन्त्रितो मन्त्रो राष्ट्रम् न परिधावति || २-१००-१८

18. "I hope that you do not deliberate alone nor indeed with numerous men. I hope your decision arrived at by you through such deliberation does not flow to the public (even before it is carried out)".

कच्चिद् अर्थम् विनिश्चित्य लघु मूलम् महा उदयम् |
क्षिप्रम् आरभसे कर्तुम् न दीर्घयसि राघव || २-१००-१९

19. "O, Bharata! I hope considering your interest fully, you lanuch an undertaking, which has maximum benefit with minimum coast and indeed do not delay it further."

कच्चित् तु सुकृतान्य् एव कृत रूपाणि वा पुनः |
विदुः ते सर्व कार्याणि न कर्तव्यानि पार्थिवाः || २-१००-२०

20. "I hope the other kings know your entire undertakings only after they have been successfully completed as well as those which have taken a shape, but not your proposed undertakings."

कच्चिन् न तर्कैर् युक्त्वा वा ये च अप्य् अपरिकीर्तिताः |
त्वया वा तव वा अमात्यैर् बुध्यते तात मन्त्रितम् || २-१००-२१

21. "My darling! I hope that others are not knowing, by their enquiries or strategies or by any other approaches not mentioned, the details of discussions you make with your ministers."

कच्चित् सहस्रान् मूर्खाणाम् एकम् इग्च्छसि पण्डितम् |
पण्डितो ह्य् अर्थ कृग्च्छ्रेषु कुर्यान् निह्श्रेयसम् महत् || २-१००-२२

22. "I hope you solicit for one wise man rather than for a thousand stupids for, a wise man can be of a great help to you in difficult matters."

सहस्राण्य् अपि मूर्खाणाम् यद्य् उपास्ते मही पतिः |
अथ वा अप्य् अयुतान्य् एव न अस्ति तेषु सहायता || २-१००-२३

23. "Even if a king employs thousands or tens of thousands of fools, they will not be helpful to him."

एको अप्य् अमात्यो मेधावी शूरो दक्षो विचक्षणः |
राजानम् राज मात्रम् वा प्रापयेन् महतीम् श्रियम् || २-१००-२४

24. "Even one wise, valiant sagacious and efficient minister alone can cause to secure a great prosperity to the king or to one who enjoys royal authority."

कच्चिन् मुख्या महत्सु एव मध्यमेषु च मध्यमाः |
जघन्याः च जघन्येषु भृत्याः कर्मसु योजिताः || २-१००-२५

25. "I hope that superior servants are assigned superior works only, mediocre servants in mediocre works and inferior servants in inferior works."

अमात्यान् उपधा अतीतान् पितृ पैतामहान् शुचीन् |
श्रेष्ठान् श्रेष्ठेषु कच्चित् त्वम् नियोजयसि कर्मसु || २-१००-२६

26. "I hope you are appointing those ministers, who are eminent incorruptible, born of the fathers and for bears of good family and who are full of integrity in matters of great importance."

कच्चिन्नोग्रेण दण्डेन भृशमुद्वेजितप्रजम् |
राज्यं तवानुजानन्ति मन्त्रिणः कैकयीसुत || २-१००-२७

27. "O, Bharata! I hope your ministers do not watch as mere witnesses, while your subjects in the kingdom wielding tremble with great fear, under your inflexible wielding of the scepter."

कच्चित् त्वाम् न अवजानन्ति याजकाः पतितम् यथा |
उग्र प्रतिग्रहीतारम् कामयानम् इव स्त्रियः || २-१००-२८

28. "I hope those who perform the sacrifice do not hold you in contempt, as one who accepts terrible gifts; as one who is fallen, as women hold in contempt of those highly lustful men."

उपाय कुशलम् वैद्यम् भृत्य संदूषणे रतम् |
शूरम् ऐश्वर्य कामम् च यो न हन्ति स वध्यते || २-१००-२९

29. "He, who does not slay a physician skilled in ways and means of aggravating a disease, a servant intent on bringing disgrace and a valiant warrior seeking kingly power, is *himself) slain by them."

कच्चिद्द् हृष्टः च शूरः च धृतिमान् मतिमान् शुचिः |
कुलीनः च अनुरक्तः च दक्षः सेना पतिः कृतः || २-१००-३०

30. "I hope an army-chief, who is cheerful, wise, courageous, valiant, well-behaved, born in a good family, who is beloved by his subordinates and efficient, is selected by you."

बलवन्तः च कच्चित् ते मुख्या युद्ध विशारदाः |
दृष्ट अपदाना विक्रान्ताः त्वया सत्कृत्य मानिताः || २-१००-३१

31. "I hope those warriors, who are excellent strong, skilled in war-face, whose excellent actions were seen before and the most courageous ones are duly honoured and respected by you."

कचिद् बलस्य भक्तम् च वेतनम् च यथा उचितम् |
सम्प्राप्त कालम् दातव्यम् ददासि न विलम्बसे || २-१००-३२

32. "I hope you are regularly giving your army, the daily provisions and the suitable salary to them, without any delay."

काल अतिक्रमणे ह्य् एव भक्त वेतनयोर् भृताः |
भर्तुः कुप्यन्ति दुष्यन्ति सो अनर्थः सुमहान् स्मृतः || २-१००-३३

33. "When there is delay in giving bread and wages, the servants become incensed against their master and become corrupt; and that is said to be a great unfortunate occurrence."

कच्चित् सर्वे अनुरक्ताः त्वाम् कुल पुत्राः प्रधानतः |
कच्चित् प्राणामः तव अर्थेषु सम्त्यजन्ति समाहिताः || २-१००-३४

34. "I hope all the foremost descendents of your race (kshatriyas) are devoted to you and do they lay down their lives steadfastly for your sake?"

कच्चिज् जानपदो विद्वान् दक्षिणः प्रतिभानवान् |
यथा उक्त वादी दूतः ते कृतो भरत पण्डितः || २-१००-३५

35. "I hope that a knowledgeable man, living in your own country, a wise man a skilled person endowed with presence of mind and the one who knows how to speak to the point, is selected as an ambassador by you."

कच्चिद् अष्टादशान्य् एषु स्व पक्षे दश पन्च च |
त्रिभिः त्रिभिर् अविज्नातैर् वेत्सि तीर्थानि चारकैः || २-१००-३६

36. "Do you get to know throught three spies, each unacquainted with each other, about the eighteen* functionaries of the enemies and the fifteen functionaries of your own side?"

*They are: 1)the chief minister; 2) the king's family priest; 3)the crown prince; 4)the leader of the army; 5) the chief warder; 6) the chamberlain (antaHpuraaH adhyaksha); 7)the superintendent of gails (kaaraagaara adhyaksha); 8 ) the chancellor of the exchequer; 9)the herald; 10)the government advocate; 11) the judge; 12)the assessor; 13) the officer disbursing salaries to army men; 14) the officer drawing money from the state exchequer to disburse the workmen's wages; 15) the superintended of public works; 16) the protector of the borders of a kingdom, who also performed the duties of a forester; 17) the magistrate; 18) the officer entrusted with conservation of waters; hills, forests and tracts difficult of access.: The fifteen functionaries of one's own side are the last fifteen of this very list, omitting the first three; viz; the chief ministers, the family priest and the crown prince.

कच्चिद् व्यपास्तान् अहितान् प्रतियातामः च सर्वदा |
दुर्बलान् अनवज्नाय वर्तसे रिपु सूदन || २-१००-३७

37. "O, slayer of your Foes! I hope you do not forever think lightly of your foes, who are weak and having been expelled, return again."

कच्चिन् न लोकायतिकान् ब्राह्मणामः तात सेवसे |
अनर्थ कुशला ह्य् एते बालाः पण्डित मानिनः || २-१००-३८

38. I hope are not honouring the materialistic brahmins, My dear brother! These men are skilled in perverting the mind, ignorant as they are and thinking themselves to be learned."

धर्म शास्त्रेषु मुख्येषु विद्यमानेषु दुर्बुधाः |
बुद्धिमान् वीक्षिकीम् प्राप्य निरर्थम् प्रवदन्ति ते || २-१००-३९

39. "Reaching to their logical acumen, these men of perverted intellect preach meaninglessly, in the presence of eminent books on righteousness."

वीरैर् अध्युषिताम् पूर्वम् अस्माकम् तात पूर्वकैः |
सत्य नामाम् दृढ द्वाराम् हस्त्य् अश्व रथ सम्कुलाम् || २-१००-४०
ब्राह्मणैः क्षत्रियैर् वैश्यैः स्व कर्म निरतैः सदा |
जित इन्द्रियैर् महा उत्साहैर् वृत अमात्यैः सहस्रशः || २-१००-४१
प्रासादैर् विविध आकारैर् वृताम् वैद्य जन आकुलाम् |
कच्चित् समुदिताम् स्फीताम् अयोध्याम् परिरक्षसि || २-१००-४२

40; 41; 42. "I hope you preserve the City of Ayodhya, furnished with everything and flourishing, that was formerly inhabited by our heroic ancestors, O my dear brother, that is worthy of its name, with its fortified gates, its elephant horses and chariots that fill it, with its brahmins, warriors and merchants in thousands, ever engaged in their respective duties, with its noble citizens self-controlled and full of energy, with its palaces in various shapes and the learned who abound there."

कच्चिच् चैत्य शतैर् जुष्टः सुनिविष्ट जन आकुलः |
देव स्थानैः प्रपाभिः च तडागैः च उपशोभितः || २-१००-४३
प्रहृष्ट नर नारीकः समाज उत्सव शोभितः |
सुकृष्ट सीमा पशुमान् हिंसाभिर् अभिवर्जितः || २-१००-४४
अदेव मातृको रम्यः श्वा पदैः परिवर्जितः |
परित्यक्तो भयैः सर्वैः खनिभिश्चोपशोभितः २-१००-४५
विवर्जितो नरैः पापैर्मम पूर्वैः सुरक्षितः |
कच्चिज् जन पदः स्फीतः सुखम् वसति राघव || २-१००-४६

43; 44; 45; 46; 47. I hope that the kingdom, adorned with peaceful places rich in temples and sheds where water stored for distribution to passers-by in tanks, with happy men and women, graced by social festivities, with land well-tilled, abiding in cattle which are totally free from cruelties, the agricultural land not exclusively fed by rains, which is beautiful and is purged of beasts of prey, which is completely rid of fears, studded with mines, a destitute of sinful men, and well-protected by our fore-fathers, is prosperous and an abode of happiness.

कच्चित् ते दयिताः सर्वे कृषि गो रक्ष जीविनः |
वार्तायाम् संश्रितः तात लोको हि सुखम् एधते || २-१००-४७

47. "Are you cherishing all those who live by agriculture and cattle-rearing, O, dear borhter! The people living on agriculture and cattle-rearing indeed prosper well."

तेषाम् गुप्ति परीहारैः कच्चित् ते भरणम् कृतम् |
रक्ष्या हि राज्ना धर्मेण सर्वे विषय वासिनः || २-१००-४८

48. "I hope their maintenance is being looked after by you, in providing what they need and eschewing what they fear. All the citizens are indeed to be protected by a king through his righteousness."

कच्चित् स्त्रियः सान्त्वयसि कच्चित् ताः च सुरक्षिताः |
कच्चिन् न श्रद्दधास्य आसाम् कच्चिद् गुह्यम् न भाषसे || २-१००-४९

49. "I hope you are pacifying the women well. Are they protected by you? I hope you are not believing the words of these women and not telling them the secrets."

कच्चिन्नागवनं गुप्तं कच्चित्ते सन्ति धेनुकाः |
कचिन्न गणिकाश्वानां कुञ्जराणां च तृप्यसि || २-१००-५०

50. "Are you supervising the woods inhabited by elephants? I hope female elephants are there to you in good number. I hope you are not simply satisfied with the existing population of female elephants, horses and male-elephants."

कच्चिद् दर्शयसे नित्यम् मनुष्याणाम् विभूषितम् |
उत्थाय उत्थाय पूर्व अह्णे राज पुत्रो महा पथे || २-१००-५१

51. "O, Prince! Do you, regally adorned, appear before the people on rising each morning, on the great high way?"

कच्चिन्न सर्वे कर्मान्ताः प्रत्यक्षास्तेऽविशङ्कया |
सर्वे वा पुनरुत्सृष्टा मध्यमे वात्र कारणम् २-१००-५२

52. "I hope that all your servants, in your presence, do not adopt a disrespectful attitude or on the other hand all of them do not hasten away on seeing you. Ofcourse, a middle course only in the principle to be followed in this matter."

कच्चित् सर्वाणि दुर्गाणि धन धान्य आयुध उदकैः |
यन्त्रैः च परिपूर्णानि तथा शिल्पि धनुर् धरैः || २-१००-५३

53. "I hope all your citadels are quite full of money, grain, weapons, water and mechanical contrivances as well as artisans and archers."

आयः ते विपुलः कच्चित् कच्चिद् अल्पतरो व्ययः |
अपात्रेषु न ते कच्चित् कोशो गग्च्छति राघव || २-१००-५४

54. "I hope your income is abundant and expenditure, minimum. I hope your treasure does not reach undeserving people, O, Bharata!"

देवता अर्थे च पित्र् अर्थे ब्राह्मण अभ्यागतेषु च |
योधेषु मित्र वर्गेषु कच्चिद् गग्च्छति ते व्ययः || २-१००-५५

55. "I hope that your expenditure goes for the cause of divinity, manes, brahmins, unexpected visitors, soldiers and hosts of friends."

कच्चिद् आर्यो विशुद्ध आत्मा क्षारितः चोर कर्मणा |
अपृष्टः शास्त्र कुशलैर् न लोभाद् बध्यते शुचिः || २-१००-५६

56. "If one of noble work, despite his honesty and integrity, is falsely accused of some offence, I hope he is not killed impatiently, without enquiry by those well-versed in law-books."

गृहीतः चैव पृष्टः च काले दृष्टः सकारणः |
कच्चिन् न मुच्यते चोरो धन लोभान् नर ऋषभ || २-१००-५७

57. "O, foremost of men! If a thief is seen and even caught at the time of his act on sufficient ground and interrogated-I hope, he is not released from greed of wealth."

व्यसने कच्चिद् आढ्यस्य दुगतस्य च राघव |
अर्थम् विरागाः पश्यन्ति तव अमात्या बहु श्रुताः || २-१००-५८

58. "O, Bharata! I hope that your well-educated ministers examine a case dispassionately when a contention occurs between a rich man and a poor man, after studying the situation carefully."

यानि मिथ्या अभिशस्तानाम् पतन्त्य् अस्राणि राघव |
तानि पुत्र पशून् घ्नन्ति प्रीत्य् अर्थम् अनुशासतः || २-१००-५९

59."The tears fallen from those who are the victims of false accusations, O Bharata, destroy their sons and herds of those who are indifferent to justice, merely for the sake of pleasure."

कच्चिद् वृधामः च बालामः च वैद्य मुख्यामः च राघव |
दानेन मनसा वाचा त्रिभिर् एतैर् बुभूषसे || २-१००-६०

60. "I hope that you seek to conciliate by the following three means, viz. gifts, a loving mind and polite words- the aged, the children and the foremost physicians."

कच्चिद् गुरूमः च वृद्धामः च तापसान् देवता अतिथीन् |
चैत्यामः च सर्वान् सिद्ध अर्थान् ब्राह्मणामः च नमस्यसि || २-१००-६१

61."I hope you greet your teachers, the elderly, the ascetics, the deities; the unexpected visitors, the trees standing at cross roads and all the brahmins of auspicious life and conduct."

कच्चिद् अर्थेन वा धर्मम् धर्मम् धर्मेण वा पुनः |
उभौ वा प्रीति लोभेन कामेन न विबाधसे || २-१००-६२

62. "I hope you do not abrogate virtue by your excessive devotion to wealth or your excessive devotion to wealth or your earthly interests by your over-emphasis on religion or both your religious and secular interests by your self-indulgence in pleasure, greed and gratification of the senses."

कच्चिद् अर्थम् च धर्मम् च कामम् च जयताम् वर |
विभज्य काले कालज्न सर्वान् भरत सेवसे || २-१००-६३

63."I hope your pursue wealth, religion and the delights of the sense dividing them all according to time, O Jewel among the victorious, the one who is conversant with the proper time and O, the bestower of boons!"

कच्चित् ते ब्राह्मणाः शर्म सर्व शास्त्र अर्थ कोविदः |
आशंसन्ते महा प्राज्न पौर जानपदैः सह || २-१००-६४

"O, the one who is endowed with great wisdom! I hope that brahmins versed in the knowledge of the scriptures, the inhabitants of town and the country pray for your happiness."

नास्तिक्यम् अनृतम् क्रोधम् प्रमादम् दीर्घ सूत्रताम् |
अदर्शनम् ज्नानवताम् आलस्यम् पन्च वृत्तिताम् || २-१००-६५
एक चिन्तनम् अर्थानाम् अनर्थज्नैः च मन्त्रणम् |
निश्चितानाम् अनारम्भम् मन्त्रस्य अपरिलक्षणम् || २-१००-६६
मन्गलस्य अप्रयोगम् च प्रत्युत्थानम् च सर्वशः |
कच्चित् त्वम् वर्जयस्य् एतान् राज दोषामः चतुर् दश || २-१००-६७

Do you eschew the following fourteen for of kings -viz. atheism, falsehood, anger carelessness, procrastination, disregard of the wise, sloth, bondage to the five senses, himself alone devoting thought to the affairs of the state (without consulting the ministers); taking counsel with those of perverted insight; failure to undertake the projects already decided, failure to keep secrets, failure to utter auspicious words (at the beginning of an undertaking); and rising from one's seat (indiscriminately) to receive all.

दशपंचचतुर्वर्गान् सप्तवर्गं च तत्त्वतः |
अष्टवर्गम् त्रिवर्गं च विद्यास्तिस्रश्च राघव २-१००-६८
इन्द्न्द्रियाणां जयं बुद्ध्यं षाड्गुण्यं दैवमानुषम् |
कृत्यं विंशतिवर्गं च तथा प्रकृतिमण्डलं || २-१००-६९
यात्रादण्डविधानं च द्वियोनी संधिविग्रहौ |
कच्छिदेतान् महाप्राज्ञ यथावदनुमन्यसे २-१००-७०

"O, the very wise Bharata! I hope you understand the following and deal them properly the ten evils(1); the five kinds of fortifications(2); the four expedients(3); the seven limbs of state(4); the eight evils (born of anger) the three objects of human pursuit(5); the three branches of learning(6) subjugation of the senses, the six strategic expedients(7); adversity brought about by divine agencies(8); and by human agencies(9); the twenty types of monarches(10); and the entire population of the kingdom, setting about an an expedition, drawing up an army in a battle-array and the two bases viz, peace and war.

(1). Ten evils attendant on royalty to be eschew. Hunting, gambling, sleeping during the day, lustfulness, inebriation, pride, calumny, lounging about idly or aimlessly, diversions such as singing and dancing. (2). Five kinds of fortifications: By moat, high bank, trees thickly planted, a space destitute of grain or provisions, the turning of waters. (3) Four expedients:- Making peace, liberality, sowing dissension, chastisement. (4) Seven limbs of state king, ministers, friends, treasure, territory, forts and an army. (5) Three objects of human pursuit: Religious merit, material wealth and sensuous enjoyment or the three kinds of power (viz. energy, power of dominion, power of counsel) (6) Three branches of learning: the three Vedas, the knowledge relating to agriculture, commerce and other vocational pursuits and political science. (7) Six strategic expedients: Coming to terms with the enemy, waging war against him, marching against him, biding one's time to seek a favourable opportunity, causing dissension in the enemy's ranks, seeking protection of a powerful ally. (8) Adversity brought about by divine agencies: Fire, water in the shape of excessive rains or floods, epidemic or endemic diseases, famine and pestulence, earthquakes and Tsunamis. (9) Adversity brought about by human agencies: officials, thieves, enemies, king's favourites and king himself, when acutated by greed. (10)Twenty types of monarchs (who are not worth-negotiating with):1. a king who is yet a child. 2. Aged. 3. Who has been ailing for a long time. 4. who has been ostracised by his own kith and kin. 5. ho is characterized by a cowardly attitude. 6. who is surrounded by cowards. 7. who is greedy. 8. has greedy associated. 9. who has estranged his ministers and others. 10. who confers with fickle-minded persons 11. who speaks ill of divine begins and brahmins; 12. who is extremely indulged in sensuous pleasures and luxuries; 13. who is ill-fated; 14. a fatalist (who believes that all things are pre-determined or subject to fate); 15. who is afflicted by famine and; 16. by military reverses; 17. who (mostly) remains away from home; 18. who has numerous enemies; 19. who is in the clutches of adverse times and; 20. who is not devoted to truth and piety.

मन्त्रिभिस्त्वं यथोद्दिष्टैश्चतुर्भिस्त्रिभिरेव वा |
कच्चित्समस्तैर्व्यस्तैश्च मन्त्रं मन्त्रयसे मिथः || २-१००-७१

"I hope that you consult with three or four ministers as mentioned in scriptures any proposal collectively and singly with each of them in secret."

कच्चित्ते सफला वेदाः कच्चित्ते सफलाः क्रियाः |
कच्चित्ते सफला दाराः कच्चित्ते सफलं श्रुतम् || २-१००-७२

"Do you find advantages in your study of Vedas? Are your acts, production of fair results? Do you benefit from the company of your consorts? Has your learning been fruitful?"

कच्चिदेषैव ते बुद्धिर्यथोक्ता मम राघा |
आयुष्या च यशस्या च धर्मकामार्थसंहिता || २-१००-७३

"O, Bharata! I hope that your conviction, is the same as mentioned by me in the foregoing verses, which is conducive to long life, fame, religious merit, enjoyment and wealth."

यां वृत्तिं वर्तते रातो यां चनः प्रपितामहाः |
तां वृत्तिं वर्तसे कच्चिद्याच सत्पथगा शुभा २-१००-७४

"Do you follow the common practice, which our fore fathers observed and which is in accord with the path of the virtuous and which is distinguished in itself."

कच्चित् स्वादु कृतं भोज्यमेको नाश्नासि राघव |
कच्चिदाशंसमानेभ्यो मित्रेभ्यः सम्प्रयच्छसि २-१००-७५

"I hope you do not eat by yourself nicely made eatable and do you share it with your friends, who seek it?"

अवाप्य कृत्स्नां वसुधां यथाव |
दितश्छ्युतः स्वर्गमुपैति विद्वान् || २-१००-७६

"A wise and learned king, having obtained and ruled the entire earth, properly by righteousness and by administering justice to the people, indeed ascends to heaven when detached from the mortal body."
Ramayana, Ayodhya Khanda, Chapter 101. Link

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby devesh » 28 Feb 2013 00:03

ShauryaT wrote:
RajeshA wrote:ShauryaT ji,

mostly couples get it right on their own.
Incorrect. Most couples get it right with the assistance of their elders and families.



not necessarily true. my own parents are an example. my mother says that it was independence from both the parents and in-laws that allowed her and dad to settle down, understand each other, and be married for 30 years. both sets of parents had/have lot of ego issues and these two were basically pawns in their games for the first few years. after that, dad got an opportunity away from Hyd/AP. that's when things started looking up.

we are getting into micro-specifics and assuming that our individual experience is the same for all society. at such detailed level, experiences will be vast and varying. what exactly do we hope to achieve with this discussion? where is it headed? and how is it supposed to help in forming a Bharatiya socio-politico vision?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 28 Feb 2013 00:05

ShauryaT wrote:
RajeshA wrote:ShauryaT ji,

mostly couples get it right on their own.
Incorrect. Most couples get it right with the assistance of their elders and families.


ShauryaT ji,

I think elders and family can be helpful in a post-marital situation. Pre-marital is a different issue.

Earlier the partner was from within the circle of known people. However now parents may not know the parents of the friends of a child. Children go to school, they go to college, they go to work, they get to know other people coming from other communities, with which the parents may not have any connections.

If two people who have got to know each other from college or from work or through other friends decide to marry, parents can at the most be facilitators, advisers, etc. to one's child only. The parents don't know the community of the fiance of the child.

So basically in the situation couples would have to get it right on their own.

Later on in marriage once families get to know each other, things can change and elders and families can advise better.

We have to keep reminding ourselves that urbanization and modern work life has changed many things. Old rules would have to adjust to these changes.

One mostly has only control over the values one gives one's child along the way, but decisions would be taken independently of elders and families.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 28 Feb 2013 00:08

devesh wrote:we are getting into micro-specifics and assuming that our individual experience is the same for all society. at such detailed level, experiences will be vast and varying. what exactly do we hope to achieve with this discussion? where is it headed? and how is it supposed to help in forming a Bharatiya socio-politico vision?


devesh ji,

I think we are talking about providing new models for society which helps them remain attached to the civilization rather than they looking for alternate models from the Western society in case they start thinking those models provide them with more freedoms and more entertainment!

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby ShauryaT » 28 Feb 2013 00:10

devesh wrote:we are getting into micro-specifics and assuming that our individual experience is the same for all society. at such detailed level, experiences will be vast and varying. what exactly do we hope to achieve with this discussion? where is it headed? and how is it supposed to help in forming a Bharatiya socio-politico vision?
Ask the question, did all concerned follow their Ashramas. Much of the issues are to do with failures of parties to recognize where their duties end....Much of Indian society has become very protection centered and economic equations rule - even within families. The point is, VarnAshrama dharmas in society cannot be fulfilled without the backing of the state and without society supporting individuals to fulfill their purusharthas.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 28 Feb 2013 01:01

Cross-posting from a post by Carl in "Understanding Islamic Society" Thread

Published on Feb 27, 2013
Islam spreads more rapidly when attacked: Ahlul Bayt News Agency (Iran)
Kuwait City (Ahlul Bayt News Agency) - Kuwait City: Islam is a moderate religion and spreads the message of tolerance even when the religion is itself under attack by the enemies. These views were shared by the speakers of a conference on Islam in the capital city of Kuwait who also highlighted the miracle of Islam that whenever the religion is defamed by the conspirators, it never stopped but the followers of Islam increased more rapidly.

The College of Shariah and Islamic Studies at Kuwait University organized a conference on Islam under the banner of “Insulting Islam and its Sanctities.” The conference was organized within the role of the government program to highlight moderation of Islam, fighting extremism as well as its role in enlightening and informing the Muslim community through studying the phenomenon of insulting Islam and its sanctities.

College Dean, Dr. Mubarak Al-Hajri, delivered a keynote address in the conference and he recalled the numerous cases in his speech in which Islam and its sanctities including the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) were defamed and insulted by the conspirators against Islam.

He categorically said that conspiracies against Islam never stopped its growth but more and more people are embracing Islam as the only true religion in the world which is the clear indication that nothing can harm Islam.

He said, “We know for sure that these abuses cannot harm our religion, our Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) and our holy places as it has been proven throughout history that Islam spreads quickly when its enemies start defaming or insulting the faith.”

Al-Hajri highlighted the most important reasons for holding the conference that it is to show the world the leniency of Islam and stop those who carry out demolition or destructive acts against buildings and public utilities.

He pointed out that such acts distort and undermine the Islamic religion.

He said that the conference aims to address the phenomenon of insulting Islam and its sanctities to know the reasons, motives and objectives as well as to determining the legitimate concept for those acts offensive to Islam and the Muslims.

For his part, Mauritania Mufti said that the reasons and motives behind insulting Islam and its sanctities lie in the failure of Muslims to adhere to their religion and Muslims being weak to resist.

He called on Muslims to unite against the enemies of Islam.


I personally am in agreement with the assessment of these gentlemen. The reason for me posting this here is because there has been a view pushed by harbans ji that "Truth" can finish off Islam - that the more people get to know about Islam the better it is.

This is in fact almost exclusively valid for non-Muslim societies, that they turn against Islam, if they already know its reality and the general impression gains ground that it is a barbaric creed. There were some posters in NYC calling Islamics saveges. But it doesn't really help crack Islamic society, in fact it may have the opposite effect. Islam thrives on siege and confrontation mentality.

Does that mean one doesn't speak out the truth? Far from it, because one has to strengthen one's own ranks as well. Moreover one needs to do it with a consistency so that even Islamic society gets used to it. It is the reaction of the Islamic core that needs to be put down strongly, and in fact the matter should not be allowed to come to the streets even. Radical Islamic groups should removed from Muslim society.

However the point is that this dynamic is high-tension situation, and one cannot foretell the outcome, whether Islamics learn to live with rational critique or the whole process just makes the Islamic society more cohesive? One does not know! It depends far too much on the administrative machinery, so one cannot say how effective this method is!

I remain in favor of using other tools to deal with the problem.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 28 Feb 2013 01:26

Islam spreads more rapidly when attacked: Ahlul Bayt News Agency (Iran)

It happens ONLY when the conquered societies are pulled out of Islam. Islam draws strength from that weakness of its opponents.

Other than that, the sympathy Islam gains in enemy society can easily be replenished if the opponent converts the occupied territories.

Imagine USA/NATO force converted entire Iraq and Afghanistan into Christianity after their invasions. Islam would have lost 30-40 muslims.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby brihaspati » 28 Feb 2013 04:04

The attack increases Islamic spread idea is spurious. It may happen if sufficient care is not taken to eradicate the practice and eliminate the sources of the totalitarian ideology completely. It survives becuase it is completely flexible in its strategy, has deception of every order built into the theology, takes away all possible guilt in doing the horrendous psychological and physical stuff on other humans by making it a divine injunction, and fits into a low-tech non-intellectually-taxing biological-dominance hierarchy. The memes will always remain attractive to the sadomasochists in every society, and hence will grow if allowed to.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby brihaspati » 28 Feb 2013 04:15

harbans ji's idea of exposing "Islamism" would succeed - had the society attempting it was not "liberal". A liberal society always submits to the demand by Islamic theologians of immunity from critical analysis. That demand in turn is not only buttressed by the threat of fanatical violence. In India as in many other countries - the cat come sout of the bag through the remark - "otherwis ethere will be riots - otherwise law and order situation will deteriorate". This shows that most liberal regimes are living in constant fear of the people.

This is actually a fivefold reasoning:

(a) the regime is scared that Muslim organized violence can show the way for other organized groupings to challenge and overthrow the regime.

(b) the regime is scared that suppressing Islamic public violence removes a competing element from various other forces within the commons and reduces the internal competition that makes life easier for rulers.

(c) preserving the potential for Islamic violence preserves a threat which can be hung over the non-Muslim portions and the regime can put itself in the place of arbitrator and hence gains power over both.

(d) all ruling regimes like freedom from criticism, and hence would like to protect claims of immunity from criticism at the ideological level. The more such claims - more power to rulers.

(e) ideological and value dilemma in the intellectual of the state : is not suppressing claims of immunity by ideologies illegitimate because of the very liberal basis of the society? However this is a very weak and perhaps the weakest of all the reasons. For the same liberal voices in dilemma - usually are more outspoken when they know that they are bashing up an ideology not known for physical retribution. Indian critics are much more confident when they bash up the "Hindu" ideologically than when they bash up the "Muslim". This is just physical fear, and perhaps in a tiny minority of them - a sign of a hidden attraction for the masculinity/strength/rowdyism apparent in such a vocal ideology as filler for their own insecurities.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby brihaspati » 28 Feb 2013 07:15

ShauryaT wrote:
RajeshA wrote:ShauryaT ji,

even if you understand Varna according to Gunas and Karmas, I still think it is irrelevant. Can a soldier then not be married to a teacher?
Professions only have a loose relationship and are examples that help in context. The idea here is to match what values one will appreciate of the other. It is easier when these values and choices are common for couples. Varnas are meaningless by professions in the societies we live in and hence examples of profession alone are poor examples. For, in such a varna driven society a teacher dedicated to the idea of gaining and imparting knowledge is treated as the highest epitome of service, respected and valued as such in society. This is decisively not the case. This teacher has forsaken the pursuit of Artha, using his knowledge and uses his knowledge gained for the benefit of society. Now, a soldier in a varna driven society has forsaken the pursuit of wealth yet pursues power. This soldier has effectively forsaken the pursuit of wealth and dedicated his life to the service of society as he/she best can. As such the welfare of the soldier becomes the responsibility of society with commensurate respect and value. We do not live in such a society and hence many able and capable do not pursue careers in such professions. The overwhelming pressure to gain economic prosperity comes at the cost of knowledge and service. Our societal conditions are not based on a Varna drive society and hence comparisons based on professions are not sufficient. A teacher could also be minting money, by working in a for profit setup. I consider most Doctors to be Shudras not Brahmins.

So, first pre-condition is to have a Varna based society and yes, in a Varna based society, I would not advise a teacher to be married to solider. Go back to the PuruSharthas. There is an inherent mismatch in objectives. Now, would you bar it by law? No. But, for most such cross Varna matches would not make sense.


I think the above line of thinking and arguments is an excellent illustration of what might have actually gone wrong in how we interpret the situation.

Suppose we look at it from the alternative viewpoint: the troubles of our current society is because we have lost the balance of all aspects of life and life-goals that every individual in SD should have sought. The extreme specialization and concentration or obsession with only one aspect of life has produced a disbalance in the individual and as a two way connected reflection into society as a whole.

Thus as you rightly pointed out, only one aspect of life - the pursuit of monetary/material accumulation has become the primary obsession to the detriment of other aspects of life. In the SD terminology being thrown around here, it would be the overwhelming place given to the purushaartha of "artha" only, and dropping of all others as equally necessary.

The soldier teacher marriage may not work, because current Hindu society has forgotten the real purushaartha of all-round development as the target of human life - I mean while you are in human body form. Current society has grown to expect the soldier to be only a soldier, all the time, 24/7 - a soldier. Not only that, that by being a soldier - the outward aspect of profession - should overwhelm all other aspects of the human's life, and defines the human's life. Same for the teacher. Added to that, there is the promoted hierarchy of artha being the supreme obsession for the current age.

The first steps towards imbalance starts with recognizing a one-to-one map of individual to varna and then defining one-to-one map from varna to profession and then from there on the slide downwards is easy by making further one-to-one maps with privilege, birth etc.

By making all this 1-1 - we play into the inherent tendency of man (and woman) to use other men (and women) for their own benefits while trying not to be used in similar fashion by others. Because there are such tendencies in various degrees in all humans, the tendency to dominate and exploit others will be more apparent in some than others. Allowing such specialization as individual mapped to unique varnas and professions mapped in turn to privilege and power will automatically be used by those who want power and dominance to maintain such 1-1 maps, and make those maps exclusive.

Thus a rather profound way of organizing individual human life in harmony with the group - whereby all varnas, all gunas, all arthas would be deemed equally important and equally sought after by each individual and hence cannot be monopolized by power-seeking exclusive behaviour in the larger society - which I would like to believe to have been the main aim of SD, has been subverted into what we now have.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Prem » 28 Feb 2013 07:39

brihaspati wrote:harbans ji's idea of exposing "Islamism" would succeed - had the society attempting it was not "liberal". A liberal society always submits to the demand by Islamic theologians of immunity from critical analysis. That demand in turn is not only buttressed by the threat of fanatical violence. In India as in many other countries - the cat come sout of the bag through the remark - "otherwis ethere will be riots - otherwise law and order situation will deteriorate". This shows that most liberal regimes are living in constant fear of the people. This is actually a fivefold reasoning:(.


This reminds of Imam Bukhari issuing threat to MMS in his own office with some thing like ":nahi tho hum kush Kar denge". This was the time when a BDY islamist librarian living in from DC was peddling his book to promote religion reservation in Armed Forces.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Pranav » 28 Feb 2013 07:45

brihaspati wrote:The first steps towards imbalance starts with recognizing a one-to-one map of individual to varna and then defining one-to-one map from varna to profession and then from there on the slide downwards is easy by making further one-to-one maps with privilege, birth etc.


Ahaa, as a mathematician you should be a little more careful about using the term "one to one" :)

It is a fuzzy map - individuals may have inclinations associated with multiple Varna categories. There is no strict correlation with profession, and Varna is supposed to be independent of birth.

But the basic idea is that each individual due to his natural preferences has certain needs and can contribute in certain ways. Something like the communist slogan "to each according to his needs and from each according to his capabilities". But there is no compulsion, each individual should have the opportunity to gravitate towards a mode of existence that satisfies him.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby brihaspati » 28 Feb 2013 08:16

Pranav wrote:
brihaspati wrote:The first steps towards imbalance starts with recognizing a one-to-one map of individual to varna and then defining one-to-one map from varna to profession and then from there on the slide downwards is easy by making further one-to-one maps with privilege, birth etc.


Ahaa, as a mathematician you should be a little more careful about using the term "one to one" :)

It is a fuzzy map - individuals may have inclinations associated with multiple Varna categories. There is no strict correlation with profession, and Varna is supposed to be independent of birth.

But the basic idea is that each individual due to his natural preferences has certain needs and can contribute in certain ways. Something like the communist slogan "to each according to his needs and from each according to his capabilities". But there is no compulsion, each individual should have the opportunity to gravitate towards a mode of existence that satisfies him.


The one-to-one is the currently prevalent theology. I do want people to think of it not only as a fuzzy map - which is perhaps a reasonable hypothesis. However, the whole idea of any philosophy of actionable agenda, is about putting some degree of control, some regulation of natural tendencies.

The argument about allowing all possible natural tendencies is dangerous - for some like the mullahcracy will indulge in their natural tendencies of genocide, and we will have to allow that too.

I am trying to promote exploration of moving away from the 1-1 map that is demanded of by exclusivist, or by-birth, varna==profession==privilege theorists, while not dumping the concept of varna-guna as a simplistic yet effective model for life goal.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Pranav » 28 Feb 2013 08:48

brihaspati wrote:However, the whole idea of any philosophy of actionable agenda, is about putting some degree of control, some regulation of natural tendencies.

The argument about allowing all possible natural tendencies is dangerous - for some like the mullahcracy will indulge in their natural tendencies of genocide, and we will have to allow that too.

True, we want to facilitate legitimate inclinations, not criminality.

I am trying to promote exploration of moving away from the 1-1 map that is demanded of by exclusivist, or by-birth, varna==profession==privilege theorists, while not dumping the concept of varna-guna as a simplistic yet effective model for life goal.

We have the Varnas, we have the motivations of Kama-Artha-Dharma-Moksha, which are given varying degrees of emphasis by different individuals, and we also have the Tamas-Rajas-Sattva Gunas.

I agree that Varnas are to be regarded as independent of birth. I think there can be a loose correlation with profession, provided it is self-chosen and not enforced.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Pranav » 28 Feb 2013 08:57

The general principle is that the individual should not be enslaved by tendencies and desires.

Kama can be legitimate but what is problematic is enslavement to Kama - uncontrolled desires leading to actions detrimental to long-term well-being.

And the same applies to other human tendencies and activities as well.

Perhaps one could say that the Kama-Artha-Dharma-Moksha axis is orthogonal to the Tamas-Rajas-Sattva axis?

There is a right, Sattvic way to do everything.

Just thinking aloud.

What would it mean for Moksha motivations to be Tamasic?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 28 Feb 2013 10:27

Pranav wrote:What would it mean for Moksha motivations to be Tamasic?


Pranav ji,

I wrote:
What use is Dharma if one is the last man sitting in a cave doing one's Tapasya, knowing that no one after him would be allowed this luxury!


Instead of Dharma, one can use Mokṣa.

In the context of the definition of 'Dharmic' identity and its implications, I also wrote:
Furthermore the definition underlines that we run to the Supreme not out of escapism as many navel-gazing Moksha lovers may tend to think, but because we consider it the ultimate test case of liberating the potential of the intrinsic capacity of the Self. It does not mean we block our intrinsic capacity to do other works of Dharma. That is why in Dharma, Karma Yoga is not discounted, but is considered important.


Dharma is one's duty, if Dharma says one needs to stay in this world and help eradicate a plague, then going for Mokṣa is tamasic.

That is also how I interpret it that each Avataar departed the world only after seeing to it that Dharma ruled supreme again. In fact I consider this an important identifier for an Avataar! Isn't Avataar supposed to be an emanation of Omnipotence? Hence, such an emanation should be able to control when it retreats from its mortality. If it has mortality under its control, it would be wrong to opt for it when one's dharmic duty is not finished. That is why an Avataar has to establish "full" Dharma before leaving.

It is another matter how sustaining it is!

Sri Parasurama tried to make it sustaining "by killing" adharmic minded. Sri Rama tried to make it sustaining "by example" as Purushottama Rama! Sri Krishna tried to make it sustaining "by teaching" Dharma in the form of Bhagavad Gita. Sri Sugata Buddha tried to make it sustaining "by showing how to pacify" the adharmic tendencies and becoming the Buddha. But Mankind has free will and is liable to temptation, so it can never be sustaining into all eternity.

Before them other Avatars did their dharmic duty, i.e. duty they imposed on themselves. Sri Matsya tried to make it sustaining "by saving" the race of Manu from extinction. Sri Kurma tried to make it sustaining "by becoming the catalyst" for civilizational churning. Sri Varaha tried to make it sustaining "by seeding agriculture" after the Great Glacial Melt. Sri Narasimha tried to make it sustaining "by liberating" humanity to pursue its free will to seek the Supreme from the control of an Adharmic. Sri Vamana tried to make it sustaining "by returning" control over the land to the Bharatiya Civilization for its further evolution.

Sri Kalki's dharmic duty would be to kill the Mleccha! Basically it means turning the world into Arya - noble! That is in fact bringing the world into sync with the 'Arya' ideal - something very Bharatiya! Whoever succeeds is Sri Kalki!

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 28 Feb 2013 11:59

brihaspati wrote:Suppose we look at it from the alternative viewpoint: the troubles of our current society is because we have lost the balance of all aspects of life and life-goals that every individual in SD should have sought. The extreme specialization and concentration or obsession with only one aspect of life has produced a disbalance in the individual and as a two way connected reflection into society as a whole.

I think the same can be said of any system as well, not just the individual. It must have a balance from different points of vision, and realize each vision in its fullness.

I blogged this today:
Can Hindutva do Yoga?

Image

...A map would give one an understanding of the territory. If one finds oneself on new or dangerous ground, one can use the map to decide on a course. Perhaps one could retreat to the safety of old familiar ground. But that would not be beneficial if newer ground can be discovered after, say, fording a river or climbing a plateau.

Of course it goes without saying that "the map is not the territory", in the famous words of Count Alfred Korzybski in his dissertation, Science and Sanity. But even more interestingly, one could say that "the map is part of the territory", as far as human consciousness goes! Therefore, even more than the biophysical environment, cultural "mind-maps" (mathematically analyzed) are important for intrapersonal and political preferences. That then goes back into reshaping the environment and world we live in....


That's the theoretical starting point of the post. More pertinent to this thread, I tried to understand the development of Hindutva from at least one angle of political vision.

Image

...For the purposes of this blog entry, some brief thoughts about the column "politics":
(1) The "populism" phase under politics is the Penultimate inflection point. At a point when a tendency gains popularity (e.g. at a punctuated equilibrium in a society's evolution), then cults form and there is a tendency to gravitate to a "formal" ideology that best encapsulates the desires associated with this tendency.
(2) Next, there is likely to be the emergence of a "strong leader" or more preferably a tight leadership core that consolidates the ideological movement and fleshes it out -- especially by wisely encompassing opposing but complementary points of view -- then captures the commanding heights of political power, and begins changes in all limbs of the establishment - political, educational, economic, cultural.
(3) From there a dynamic society should move into a new nationalism that is not centered on a particular personality or its dynastic succession, but on a national purpose linked with its civilization's worldview, to grow stronger economically and healthier socially.
(4) From there it would move into an isolationist phase, to consolidate its gains and capitalize on them, feed itself and grow strong in order to project power internationally.
(5) From there the society would re-enter a populist phase, where there is a widespread will aligned with the national purpose conceived earlier, and a widespread implementation of the promised benefits conceived in the populist phase the first time round.
(6) Once these benefits are received at the popular level, there should emerge a general recognition of its limits, and a national cognition of a new plane of existence that involves balance.
(7) However, if there is no proper cognition the first time round in the "populist" phase, then no good "formalism" comes from it, or rather an intellectually mediocre ideology rides the tide and leads to a chronic excess in the "formalism" step, of legalistic ideological affiliation and repeated purges of people who cannot continually swear by that ideology.

I think its easy to see that in movements where this has not played out, there has been a stalling of the iteration, and ultimately it leads to greater and greater tension and conflict - either internal, or with other societies - or simply stagnation.

....

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 28 Feb 2013 13:29

Carl ji,

I have been looking at the "30 forms of materialistic imbalance" graph for some time now. It is as such quite interesting but I still have to internalize it.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 28 Feb 2013 14:11

RajeshA wrote:I have been looking at the "30 forms of materialistic imbalance" graph for some time now. It is as such quite interesting but I still have to internalize it.

RajeshA ji, in the blogpost, I briefly tried to flesh out the "religion" and "politics" columns. As an exercise, we could take up each column and work through it to see if it helps understand history and present trends better.

Before that, there is a key thesis I put forward in the in the blogpost:

My observation is that, down each column, the ideological tendency one step before balance also acts like an inflection point. We can call it the Penultimate step. At this point, there is a tendency to ripple right back in a sort of reverse peristaltic movement, back to the tendency one step after the balance point. We can call this the Intrapersonal Limit point, for it is the logical conclusion of the drive, taken independently of all other drives with one's body as the reference point. This reverse peristaltic movement vomits all the discontents of the system before a rebuilding can begin. So from this Limit point, one then cycles down through all the other steps, including the Penultimate step, and then one comes out the other side and actually reaches the balance. However -- if one does not have that enlightening cognition on the self and life in the Penultimate step during the first iteration, then one can fall over into excess - one falls into an unenlightened mode of the Intrapersonal Limit!


About the column "religion" I wrote on the blog:

Example 1: The "cultism" phase under the column "religion" is an inflection point. If in the course of life one has drifted into a religious or political cult ideology, and then has certain cognitions, it can lead to greater maturity. Then one tends to start over, first from a self-pampering "royal" enjoyment of what one has of life or can reach for. Then one moves into re-examining the "fundamentals" (but with a new vision this time). Then cycles through "traditionalism", and learn to integrate it into a "holistic" life. Again at the penultimate step, there is a re-entry into the deeply personal imago of the "cult" cocoon (but with purpose and vision this time), until one comes out from it into "balance". However, if one does not have a metacognition in the cult phase the first time round itself, then one is likely to fall over into excess, in the form of the "religious royalty cultish dead-end", and its worshiping devotees. Either one becomes the guru maharaj or one of the acolytes.

This can be applied to any column. Also, perhaps more than one iteration may be required between the Penultimate step and the Limit, so that one gains all the necessary cognitions before one emerges into the point of balance on a new plane. Lastly, to get a comprehensive view of any religious, political or social ideology, one could map out its position along all columns and then put it on a grade-scale in comparison to other ideologies or cultures.


About the column "politics" I wrote on the blog:

For the purposes of this blog entry, some brief thoughts about the column "politics":
(1) The "populism" phase under politics is the Penultimate inflection point. At a point when a tendency gains popularity (e.g. at a punctuated equilibrium in a society's evolution), then cults form and there is a tendency to gravitate to a "formal" ideology that best encapsulates the desires associated with this tendency.
(2) Next, there is likely to be the emergence of a "strong leader" or more preferably a tight leadership core that consolidates the ideological movement and fleshes it out -- especially by wisely encompassing opposing but complementary points of view -- then captures the commanding heights of political power, and begins changes in all limbs of the establishment - political, educational, economic, cultural.
(3) From there a dynamic society should move into a new nationalism that is not centered on a particular personality or its dynastic succession, but on a national purpose linked with its civilization's worldview, to grow stronger economically and healthier socially.
(4) From there it would move into an isolationist phase, to consolidate its gains and capitalize on them, feed itself and grow strong in order to project power internationally.
(5) From there the society would re-enter a populist phase, where there is a widespread will aligned with the national purpose conceived earlier, and a widespread implementation of the promised benefits conceived in the populist phase the first time round.
(6) Once these benefits are received at the popular level, there should emerge a general recognition of its limits, and a national cognition of a new plane of existence that involves balance.
(7) However, if there is no proper cognition the first time round in the "populist" phase, then no good "formalism" comes from it, or rather an intellectually mediocre ideology rides the tide and leads to a chronic excess in the "formalism" step, of legalistic ideological affiliation and repeated purges of people who cannot continually swear by that ideology.

I think its easy to see that in movements where this has not played out, there has been a stalling of the iteration, and ultimately it leads to greater and greater tension and conflict - either internal, or with other societies - or simply stagnation.


Then I try to apply the "politics" theory above to history. I trace some of the steps in other cultures, particularly this "American Exceptionalism" that dominates our age. Then I raise questions about Hindutva (I haven't done this exercise for "religions" yet).

In step (1) from above, movements that generated a more elegant, agile and intellectually superior formalism and ideology thrive longer. The US constitution is one example. The basic credo of Islamism is also pretty agile and rugged -- though at a rather different level of the psycho-physical mind than the US constitution. The Shi'a conversion of Iran is another case in point - where several Sufi cults were already closet Shi'a and Persian nationalist. Shah Esma'il was himself influenced by one such sect and he emerged as the strong leader in step (2) and lead the Safavi takeover. The Indian constitution is also a very comprehensive document, but the dead weight of several provisions in it need to be done away with as their intended goals are met as per the Preamble. Religious and caste privileges and freedoms to politically organize on those lines and so forth are meant to create a unified nation as clearly stated in the Preamble. They were never intended to become permanent entitlements for the purpose of more and more vicious politics.

Then in step (2) one observes that certain movements found a core leadership that consolidated that formalized ideology, debated it within their own core and found themselves cordially on both sides of the aisle. Again the US is a good example with its founding fathers fleshing out their thoughts on democracy and the Publius papers, and occupying both sides of the aisle. Whereas other movements that were not able to maturely encompass two opposing viewpoints have run into historic problems. Islamism still suffers from the Shi'a-Sunni schism that has lead to chronic blood-letting for fourteen centuries. Does Hindutva have the philosophical caliber to speak from opposing viewpoints? Can Hindutva be all-encompassing? Is there even a credible Hindutva Left at this point, or is there likely to be one in the near future? Obviously, the Gujarat model of development cannot be replicated in all states and regions.

Next, in step (3) a new nationalism is given shape, as a collective aspiration and there is economic growth and removal of social evils. I think the USSR and to some extent the PRC had a good phase in this aspect, but because of a philosophically immature formalistic ideology and equally immature core leadership formative phases, they had/have problems. The US continued its colonial momentum and occupied the entire continent from coast to coast, practically finishing off the native races. Thereafter, its engagement with Japan and opening up the Far East is noteworthy, as is its competition with Hispanic and other colonial powers. In India there is a lot of confusion on this step -- about what exactly this national aspiration really is! At best, the only pride that has been inculcated revolves around the fact that India is more sane and morally superior to its neighbors, some of whom we have engaged with in war successfully.

Next, in point (4), the US went through an isolationist phase of consolidation. India has been Non-Aligned, and perhaps this may continue in the near future. It becomes nonsensical without a vigorous growth trajectory and future purpose. So this must go along with an upsurge in economic growth. China has used this step to compensate for its weaknesses in previous steps, and is surviving and doing better than India in many ways, even though India is stronger on some of the earlier steps.

In point (5), we see that many of the promised benefits in the US were realized at a popular level, in terms of standards of living and the American Dream. At this point the US is in step (6), and it remains to be seen whether the nation as a whole can have a cognition of the limitations of the current materialistic understanding of the "pursuit of happiness", and an agreement on a more balanced spiritual understanding of the term - a sane spirituality that avoids the pitfall of Christian fundamentalism or its theological quirks. If this cognition does not dawn on the nation, then as part of step (7) it will continue to get into deeper conflict in the world as it competes for energy resources or in Crusader terms, and there will be greater tensions outside as well as a widening income disparity within.

India is still in the early steps, but at a crucial juncture here. Clearly, future growth and direction is slacking, and it is because there is confusion about the national sense of purpose. The intent expressed in the Preamble has been betrayed by the Congress and the caste and communal political discourse it created. Its own leadership core has degenerated into a dynastic sycophancy. Hindutva has potential and some of its leaders are promising, but it remains to be seen if a mature and intellectually superior ideology can emerge and encompass both sides of the aisle. I believe the emergence of a credible Hindutva Left would be a sure sign of things changing, and notably stalwarts like K.N. Govindacharya walked out of the BJP over a decade ago and started work on this in earnest. Perhaps the cult of Hindutva needs to be revisited and certain cognitions to be gained.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 28 Feb 2013 14:53

Carl ji,

you paint on a grand scale! I have read your blogpost. Now I have to digest it as best as I can! :)

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby brihaspati » 28 Feb 2013 18:45

A point to consider : "brahmacharya" literally means [closest] practice/study of "brahma". There is nothing in RV and even derived texts closer to RV [compared to historically traceable later period texts] that suggests that "brahma" had any fundamental connection to abstinence or celibacy.

The strictures on the student phase - was perhaps partly a pragmatic approach in which the adults who thought they knew best, decided that sex and other stuff would be a distraction to main purpose of that period of life - which should be to acquire knowledge and skills. But I have always had doubts about the real motivations behind strictures against what social lords dubbed "overindulgence in the pleasures of the flesh". A section of the elite always thinks that they know best about what people should do in sexuality, relationships, and use this attitude to curtail freedoms and choices for the commons.

Sex has always been the target of elite control - and its so funny that such control never seems to have been implemented on the powerful. So edicts of sexual-control reflect more a socio-political power relationship than any profound moral origin. Some perhaps have their own problems with sex and sexuality - which is most obvious in the strictures against women, womens' covering up - which is made explicit in the Buddhist rules on Bhikshunis and ideals-of-womanhood, against teen and kids sexual exploration, etc. One can see a remarkable coincidence of strictures being applicable exactly to those sections of the society considered naturally weak and disempowered - or who do not deserve power and choices and freedoms.

Even the extreme emphasis on phased periods of life in which one should pursue only one guna - is an extreme regimentation coming out partly from failing to understand the overall model objective, and partly for social control.

What should have been stated is that say for "brahmacharya" phase - acquisition of knowledge and skills is the primary or most important objective, but that does not mean exclusion of all other aspects. On the other hand people should take care that the other aspects do not distract from the primary purpose.

By extension - the entity most connected to "brahma" [aw] in a lesser proportion in the RV and in a higher proportion as we go away from RV in textual terms - is "Brahmaa". This entity is however not at all known for abstinence. He grew a fifth face on top to watch Saraswati [technically his own daughter even if manasija] who was trying to avoid his amorous glances and was so excited that he ejaculated. Obviously, the people who formulated these verses did not think of it as a crime - even in a symbolic sense, and obviously in a social sense - as otherwise their listeners would have seriously complained that this as an antisocial imagery lapped on to a revered divinity. In fact this lapse had a significant connection to the Lanka war - since Brahmaa became unfit to do the akaala-bodhana of Chandi by Rama not because he ejaculated or failed to abstain - but because that distraction made him forget to utter the Gayatri for one sandhya. Ravana was fit - because he had never forgotten his timely utterances. The emphasis on rituals but also perhaps a hidden pointer to the pointlessness of rituals [the irony of Ravana being the best purohita] is another issue.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 28 Feb 2013 20:17

Continuing from "Future Strategic Scenarios in the Indian Subcontinent" Thread in GDF

johneeG wrote:Generally, few powerful castes switch sides, to protect their monopoly on power, to a rival ideology. Similarly, the foreign ideologies also target the powerful castes for conversion(through Sama, Dana, Bheda and Danda). Once the some such powerful people are on the side of the new ideology, they use their power and influence to spread the rival ideology at the expense of original ideology. The general masses are exposed to lot of sponsored propaganda. This phenomenon keeps repeating again and again. All the new ideologies, including 'secularism', seem to have succeeded in this manner only. It is a top-down approach. Bottom-up approach seems to be too cumbersome.

Re-conversions of a recently converted person(within a life-time) is not a big deal. Sri Vidyaranya re-converted Hukka and Bukka(who later established Vijayanagar empire). Re-conversions of those who were born in a foreign creed can be tricky. They need to be given some education about Hinduism by a competent person, so that they can practice the religion properly.

Strictly speaking, the re-conversion may not even need an elaborate shuddhi ceremony. They can take a dip in holy Ganga and visit the Lord Vishveshvara in Kasi. That is enough. The real test is whether they follow the religion properly after this event or not. Hinduism does not recognize conversion. Because it does not recognize any other religion or 'deity'(not even as a false god or lower god). All the non-Hindu creeds and 'deities', without exception, are simply considered the delusions of the people, as far as Hinduism is concerned. The attitude of Hinduism towards other creeds is a sort of pity and contempt, not even hatred. So, from the perspective of Hinduism, all are Hindus(even plants and animals). And everyone must follow the dharmas enjoined on them to the best of their abilities. If they don't, then they incur sin, which leads to calamities(for the person and his relations) in this life and/or after-life.


I think this is an effect from confusion within the Hindu community.

It is one thing to be part of the Dharma of the Universe/Existence. It is another thing to recognize the authority of that Dharma as espoused in the corpus of Dharma (Śruti, Smṛti, BG..)

So conversion to Sanaatana Dharma means recognizing the authority and validity of Dharma consciously. Now Atri garu has assured me that Sanaatana Dharma includes Aastikamata, Bauddhmata Jainamata, Gurumata, etc. So I go by that definition.

I had proposed earlier

RajeshA wrote:I think this is one thing all the Dharmic Sampradayas (Sanatanics, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists) should take up and take a collective stand on it. In fact, one should think up a collective "Dharmic/Hindu* Shuddhi" ceremony, or at least where half the ceremony is conducted according to a common protocol and language, and the other half can be from the Sampradaya itself whose priest is asked to conduct the ceremony.

Anytime somebody from Islam or Christianity is converted back into the Hindu fold, this ceremony needs to be conducted.

This is among many one national issue which is current and urgent, where Sanatanics, Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists can show that they accept each other on the one hand and if a person moves between these sampradayas, it does not mean the end of the world and does not invoke social ostracization, and that Islam and Christianity are different from the Dharmic traditions.

Of course this is not a strategy to stop conversions or Love-Jihad, but it is indeed a way to underline that conversion to Islam and Christianity has something unacceptable about it what "conversions" between the Dharmic Sampradayas do not.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby member_20317 » 28 Feb 2013 22:32

brihaspati ji,

Sexuality getting explored is natural, so are habits. Natural flows are meant to be cultivated and harnessed for mutual benefit like a farm. Not the sone ke ande dene wali murgi.

Right now Indians have been under a tremendous overt and covert pressure from the west. When I was a kid, logon ko shahar ki hawa lagti thi, ab phoren ki hawa lag jati hai. Paid sex is actually cheaper then safe sex. And abortion clinics have seen a large number of very young kids. Teachers know how to teach reproduction but in the absence of dhayaan and detachment training from the home (compounded by acute shortage of gurus at schools) we have a large population that is behaving like facchas in the first year college.

Love jihad is another bimari that has taken off without the women folk even knowing what the reality has been and will be. Well they cannot be faulted, they were sought to be protected instead of being educated.

1) There is a crying need to stage a coup in the popular entertainment space, at the very least no fad must be made to last for too long. One fad feeding into another can still be tolerated but a fad becoming the essence cannot be.

2) Then the need to take the culture of self-control and dhyaan to our people has to be restarted. Policing cannot be the answer to our ills. We just cannot wait for enough investments and reforms in the policing. The vested interests will never let go off their power.

3) The need to frustrate some memes that have taken a life of their own cannot be ignored. The scatterbrained ideas that seek the maximum change from the majority of the country to the lifestyle benefits of a sliver of the people need to be nicked before these become irrevocable. A man who feels great about claiming the extent of his freedom without holding out the volume of his promise cannot be in our interests.

4) The most effort as I see it, needs to be made in making people believe in Being Different. The conformism the need to match steps was when we were political underdogs. Now we have at least the political freedom so we should further the cause of social freedom. The Dharmic background this country is so strong that given a fighting chance it will responsibly use the freedom for a rapid expansion of selfhood. This expansion will OTOH spell the death knell for the western trends. Already a large part of the urban population has started moving out of the branded lifestyle consumables. The food, apparels and accessories, personal grooming have experienced a desirable diversification. This trend can be used to our advantage. In the durables the branding may actually be desirable so instead the existing diversification trend should ideally be diverted to the emotional and intellectual experiences. Too long has the country suffered under the buddhijeevi and emotional idiots.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby member_20317 » 01 Mar 2013 00:46

ShauryaT wrote:Professions only have a loose relationship and are examples that help in context. The idea here is to match what values one will appreciate of the other.


SharuyaT ji the varna based classification is important but only so long as the varnas are tied to the gunas and not to external (temporary) qualities. This part has been discussed often enough.

Besides the issue of the objectives needs to be resolved also. Say for example a Soldier wishing for a spouse who can intimately understand the kids. These would be complementary requirements not driven towards specialization but towards risk amelioration. Not everybody is at the same level of specialization so everybody needs a different mix of solutions.


ShauryaT wrote:I consider most Doctors to be Shudras not Brahmins.


Why so, doctors need to excercise some very important qualities of Brahmins. Long hours, poring through texts, high degree of patience, risk of pedestalization, having to deal with extreme kinds of news, detachment.

Or is this the Profession to Varna mis-match.

.......................

A lot of what is Indian is actually derived from the first principle. That creates its own difficulties in interactions with foreigners.
Last edited by member_20317 on 01 Mar 2013 01:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 01 Mar 2013 01:09

ravi_g wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:I consider most Doctors to be Shudras not Brahmins.


Why so, doctors need to excercise some very important qualities of Brahmins. Long hours, poring through texts, high degree of patience, risk of pedestalization, having to deal with extreme kinds of news, detachment.

ravi_g ji, why can't those be shudra qualities (or maybe vaishya or kshatriya)? Not sure why those qualities are exclusively associated with brahmana varNa? In fact, brahmaNa varNa would typically be more mercurial and based on inspiration rather than "duty", more independent and individualistic.

Shudra varNa AFAIU is basically about application - anyone who picks up something originally created by the other 3 varNas and implements it in society, that is shudra. That includes applied technologies, soldiers of war, bookkeepers, all non-"fundamental research" oriented penpushers and labrats in academia or any scholarly institution, etc.

The type of work a shudra varNa is associate with simply depends on which of the other varNas it is primarily serving. Its not that books = brahmin, weapons = kshatriya, broomstick = shudra, etc.

So medical doctor profession would certainly be mainly shudra varNa. Because of their notary and leadership role in society they may also fulfill kshatriya varNa. Because of involvement in corporate medical industry and having one's own practice, etc., they may also fulfill vaishya varNa. If they are involved in bench to bedside research at a fundamental level, they could fulfill brahmaNa varNa. But mainly it is shudra varNa - just like most of the professions!

So it goes back to B ji's insistence that varNa be seen as the nature of something in a model system. All people are an overlap of all 4+ varNas. Similarly, all the professions are an overlap of all 4+ varNas, but they are primarily shudra in essence. Shudra varNa can have many sub-branches. The external type of that shudra work depends on which of the other 3 main varNas that shudra branch is associated with in service. The various branches of shudra varNa could also include shudra service to shudra, or to society taken as a whole. From an organizational perspective, shudratva is the most significant varNa to understand and nurture. From a dharmic perspective also it is most important and has its effect on understanding the other 3 varNas also. E.g. the concept of the servant leader.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby member_20317 » 01 Mar 2013 01:21

That 'application' vs. 'fundamental research' part makes sense.

Thanks about that, makes things easier to understand and communicate.

Risk of loosing grip on Fundamentals - Brahmin
Risk to life and H&D - Kshtriya
Risk on wealth - Vaishya
Risk of messing up Applications - Shudra

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 01 Mar 2013 01:28

Varna is simply the Guna which predominates one's personality and aptitude. But everybody should be trained in all four Varnas and the associated Gunas.

That is all-round education and nurturing.

Everybody needs to be a Dharmic, well-educated, a fighter, should have a savvy and shrewd business acumen, and should be in general a hardworking person. One should be able to fight as and when required. There can be additional specialization, but everybody should be able to fight!

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 01 Mar 2013 01:29


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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 01 Mar 2013 02:12

RajeshA wrote:Varna is simply the Guna which predominates one's personality and aptitude.

RajeshA ji, not sure if I agree with that.

I think varNa is more fundamental than guNa. I think varNa has to do with basic purpose or motivation. Two people of different varNas can have the same external guNas.
1. If guNa is taken to be a characteristic 'talent': A brahmaNa who loves and cultivates the skill of music puts something different into it and gets something different out of it than perhaps a shudra who loves and cultivates that same skill...
2. If guNa is taken to mean stereotypical sattva-rajas-tamas: The 'level' in which the same guNa is experienced differs based on varNa. Anyone can simulate any of those guNas at his own level - but with different purposes and different results.

Maybe at a more fundamental level of varNa also one can speak of a more fundamental 'guNa'. Philosophers like Madhva even said there were guNas in Vaikuntha! So 'guNa' can be spoken of in some sense at any level! But there is a risk of widespread misunderstanding when we tie guNa to varNa, because most people understand even sattvik/rajasik/tamasic at a very superficial level. Thus, the good, obedient moron who eats curd-rice and conserves his semen is considered "sattvik", whereas the precocious seeker who goes astray and experiments with drugs is worse than "tamasic". I'm not saying this is necessarily a mistake - it may be true at one level and false at another level. I'm just pointing out that it usually tends to be too superficial a judgment to be of any practical use in the educational or employment system.

Therefore, varNa has relevance only n the context of the spiritual process - and finding one's basic purpose is a major part of being "born again" (dwija). This "dwija" is theoretically only linked with the first 3 varNas - but that's only because shudra varNa is a "derivative varNa" and is intrinsically associated with one of these "primary" varNas.

If I understand correctly, in the diagram above (by Sri. Raama Yeleswarapu as posted by Atri ji) , the purusharthas are permuted differently for each varNa. The word purushartha signifies purpose or motivation rather than talent or characteristics (guNa).

Thus, guNa is a context dependent word, the context being the hypostatic level under consideration. Whereas varNa is in the context of the being as a whole AFAIU.

RajeshA
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 01 Mar 2013 02:37

I am open to be educated further on the meaning of Varnas!

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 01 Mar 2013 02:48

RajeshA garu,

This has been discussed before. Perhaps readers can visit the following links and see the discussion there...

My perspective
1. viewtopic.php?p=1120045#p1120045
2. viewtopic.php?p=1124883#p1124883
3. viewtopic.php?p=1125023#p1125023
4. viewtopic.php?p=1129473#p1129473
5. viewtopic.php?p=1149507#p1149507

Atri
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Atri » 01 Mar 2013 03:16

Public opinion is not in favor of Varna (in any meaning whatsoever), guys.. IN this generation and next, one cannot sell Varna. if and when victory of dharma is complete, the generations then (50 years from now) will think about its practicality and applicability. We can create an ideological understanding of the concept which later generations may use as template to build upon a relevant model. But this is not possible in near future.

Anyone who speaks the word "varna" will lose the interest of the very audience one is trying to address and rally. i have written extensively on varna and stuff. After interacting with people, I am arriving at this conclusion.

with less than 75% of hindus in ROI (less than 55% in subcontinent), one needs a massive loksangraha. bringing up varna will simply thwart or postpone such attempts of hindu loksangraha. There was a massive shift from vedic pantheon to puranik pantheon 2000 years ago. We might require such massive shift again. only then other things can then be implemented.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby ShauryaT » 01 Mar 2013 03:25

Atri ji: You are on the money again. However, let the vision come out. This thread should not be about what is implementable in a generation or two. One of the constant harps is there is no positive dharmic vision and is not materially different from the current "secular" milieu or the other extreme that Hindus are all fascists. Let a dharmic vision be spelt out and hence my opposition to a "reactionary" vision as if we do not have our own ideologies. We do. Request you join in this thread and continue.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 01 Mar 2013 03:26

Atri +1

Slowly but surely I am coming to a conclusion that we should not even push the Hindu/Bharatiya project in any shape or form. This is at least two decades away.

The need of the hour is simple no-nonsense good governance. That too year after year for at least two decades.

Then people can talk about Bharatiya project
Hindu project is at least another decade or so behind
Then comes the Varna project.

That doesn't mean we cannot discuss it. Let the idea start.

I am observing the debate on "Idea of India" started in MSM. At present it is being discussed as the "Idea of India" being secular and secular only. Slowly but surely this debate will uncover the buried but real "Idea of India" that is bharat. on BRF we have had this discussion 2-3 years ago under the "civilizational" thread, which gave birth to various "strategic scenarios" threads.

Atri
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Atri » 01 Mar 2013 03:29

ShauryaT wrote:Atri ji: You are on the money again. However, let the vision come out. This thread should not be about what is implementable in a generation or two. One of the constant harps is there is no positive dharmic vision and is not materially different from the current "secular" milieu or the other extreme that Hindus are all fascists. Let a dharmic vision be spelt out and hence my opposition to a "reactionary" vision as if we do not have our own ideologies. We do. Request you join in this thread and continue.


Are Shaurya ji, I never left.. I am very much in this endeavour.. :)

I am simply letting know few of the best minds I have thought with, the alarm ringing in my mind for some days. chk bhavishya gdf dhaga..


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