LCA News and Discussions

[Sagar G]

The only way an Arjun or an LCA or an Indian defence item, that has an imported competitor, will be inducted is if our sarkari, desi arms agencies can give the needed ghoos.

A strong PM and a strong Def. Min. is all we need to turn the tide in favour of indigenization.

[Gagan]

A strong PM and a strong DM can't overturn the go slow process of the Babus in the nai dilli sarkari daftars.
These guys openly say, "the netas come and go, we are here forever"
Their stranglehold is unbreakable, a PM is a politician too, and won't go down to clean house.

And the most important thing, a PM and DM needs money to fight elections, give tickets to his party members, there are a thousand expenses to run elections, and then to save something for their proverbial 7 generations.

Ghoos is a way of life in every national capital in the world, we are fools to expect it to change. We need to find a way where are national products should make it into service, get domestic and then foreign orders (our companies will have to bribe to win outside orders also right?).
We desperately need a marketing arm for our defense industries, sarkari or private.

[vic]

If we kill both fake JV called PAKFxxk and purchase of MRCA, we can have instead 1800 - 2800 LCA, setting up a massive aerospace industry, providing employment, preventing bribes and providing equipment to IAF which cannot be sanctioned.

[Indranil]

If we kill both fake JV called PAKFxxk and purchase of MRCA, we can have instead 1800 - 2800 LCA, setting up a massive aerospace industry, providing employment, preventing bribes and providing equipment to IAF which cannot be sanctioned.

I could use a lot of voodoo too.

[NRao]

At 8 a year , 800th LCA will be delivered by HAL in 2113

It is not difficult to duplicate production lines and double/triple production IF NEED BE.

I would not worry about that. Besides there are outside help that is waiting in the wings to assist if need be.

Antony is getting a case ready for imports.

I said earlier
its 15 years since sanctions on LCA after 1998 after Shakti
its 29 years since inception of LCA 1983

The operation is successful but the patient is dead kind of story.

Again?

It is getting stale.

Ghoos is a way of life in every national capital in the world, we are fools to expect it to change. We need to find a way where are national products should make it into service, get domestic and then foreign orders (our companies will have to bribe to win outside orders also right?).

How can you expect to "find a way" when I could very easily derail it via "ghoos'? Seems to me it is a closed circuit. Never to get out.

[Sagar G]

A strong PM and a strong DM can't overturn the go slow process of the Babus in the nai dilli sarkari daftars.
These guys openly say, "the netas come and go, we are here forever"
Their stranglehold is unbreakable, a PM is a politician too, and won't go down to clean house.

Yes they can more than overrun the process, when the ministers can use there power to harass honest officers then an honest minister can also use the same power vested upon him to change the ghooskhori attitude of the current system. The guys who have grown balls to say that say so because all these years they have got only a corrupt neta to govern them but put an honest maa behen ek kar doonga type of neta amongst them and then watch the drama than will ensue.

Ghoos is a way of life in every national capital in the world, we are fools to expect it to change. We need to find a way where are national products should make it into service, get domestic and then foreign orders (our companies will have to bribe to win outside orders also right?).
We desperately need a marketing arm for our defense industries, sarkari or private.

You have come to accept bribery as a way of life for reasons best known to you saar I haven't and never will so I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. I still believe in what I said before.

[Gagan]

You and I don't want bribes to be part of a defense deal.

But the people giving the bribes and the people accepting the bribes are perfectly fine with that practice. Whats more, the powers that be are fine with this practice.

[Sagar G]

Whats more, the powers that be are fine with this practice.

The powers that be are there because of banana people voting for them, once these banana people are reformed or become extinct due to natural selection then these "practices" will also vanish quickly.

[pentaiah]

Ok
It gets stale
When you
Hurry slowly no?

[SaiK]

please remind yourselves, pakfa is budgeted for $30b and Rafale for $20 per the open news items. Now that is onlee paltry $50b (peanuts) for our society which is trying to meet ends. and a few billions at 20% of the medium role cost targeted is seen as 3 legged cheetah and broken promises, useless and nonsense and expensive, makes it really hard to eat... and also makes it expensive for the protection of our citizens. yeah right!.. way to go strategists.. pakfa has nothing accomplished rather it is just a rafale in a different class. they can budget so much into the future with firangs, and can't look at home grown solutions for the near and useful future. what a load bull crap is that? don't the strategists realize the industrial base we are developing? the jobs, the technology to mature with, etc? this is like the wrong government at helm. take them away (vote them down)... apologies to politicize this thread, but it is required for the survival of the product and the thread itself. we need to support LCA buttoms up. else, shut this thread as well, and proceed towards firangie technology slavery for ever!!!

i see a lot of similarities in bringing BT cotton to desh to firangie tech slavery to desh. we have a strong business and capitalistic evil monsters, who drive their profit rather country's security. and these are the men who get bribery packaged to left, right and the middle.

[vic]

China used hundreds of Mig19 & 21 clones between 1960 to 2000 as their primary air defense fighters. Similarly we can use 3000 LCA between 2015 to 2045 as our primary air defense and Strike aircraft. LCA stealth characteristics can be further improved by using stealth pods. We have to learn to rely upon ourselves.

[Sanku]

China used hundreds of Mig19 & 21 clones between 1960 to 2000 as their primary air defense fighters. Similarly we can use 3000 LCA between 2015 to 2045 as our primary air defense and Strike aircraft. LCA stealth characteristics can be further improved by using stealth pods. We have to learn to rely upon ourselves.

This is seriously OT, but there is no indication that the doctrine of "huge quantity of pitiful quality" adopted by the Chinese in their worst nightmarish timeframes 1960-2000 would be appropriate for India in 2013. Heck it is not clear if it is being adopted even by Chinese right now.

1) The same doctrine, envisaged that it was acceptable to loose over 1000+ soldiers to gain a company position in Rezang La. In 1962, despite the political mismanagement of horrendous position, IA was already begining to regain its footing, at the remaining battles if the Chinese had not wisely returned to their old posts with a show of victory, would have gone the way of Rezang La.

India neither can afford nor want to fight battles in human waves, with nary a thought to cost and life.

2) If we want 3000 a/c instead of 500 fighters right now. We are talking about increasing the logistical footprint about 6 times. That means six times the airstrips, six times the pilots six times the engineering staff. Six times everything.

Just the pension costs for the man power would make purchasing the Rafales look free.


In any case even if India thought it was prudent to spend the money to increase GDP. Getting real estate for 6 times the airstrips is impossible problem in a country where land is at such premium that exist defence land is under pressure.

Of course they can cluster all their a/c on the existing locations, making them perfect targets for large scale denial attacks.

3) Time frame is of course yet another issue -- the issues which plague programs like LCA and Arjun in terms of delays, are less to do with money spent on the program but structural reasons like poor program management.

Unless those problems are fixed -- and it can be demonstrated that the MIL-Ind complex is indeed ready to scale up, banking on LCAs in this time frame will not yield anything.

[karan_mc]

At 8 a year , 800th LCA will be delivered by HAL in 2113

The 8 no. of LCA per year provides a five year time for the mk. 2 to come online so that as soon as the mk.1 production ends the production of mk. 2 can be taken up without the line remaining idle and hence resulting in efficient usage of man and machine thereby removing any chance of loss due to idle time. But since objective analysis is too much to ask from you, you can continue trolling.

At least i am not leaving in a fantasy world , and talking 800 or 3000 LCA

[Gerard]

India neither can afford nor want to fight battles in human waves, with nary a thought to cost and life..

And neither can China. All the little emperors cannot be lost in wave attacks. The thousands of junk aircraft are just that - junk

[Sagar G]

At least i am not leaving in a fantasy world , and talking 800 or 3000 LCA

Yeah I am quite sure you are not "leaving" your fantasy world and are a permanent resident there, so keep it up.

[rsingh]

Yep
- To make Bakis and Chinies soil their pants
- To suck money from garib Bharat
- As a carrier builder......how many people entered the project and retired without seeing the completion of project?
- To remind us that our technology is so advanced that it will take years to complete the project,therefore we need to buy fighters from Videsh
- To give Jingos of BR some thing to munch on

is this guy for real ?!

Yes real. Have guts to call spade a spade. Have my opinion on issues. I do not change my views in order to be accepted by so called "super experts" who get sexual satisfaction by looking at LCA wall papers. Points are real. LCA project is very slow and it is ridicule to sing song of production of MK2,when MK1 in not in production. You guys can't be serious. Let's have first squadern of LCA and then we talk. Lambi lambi na chode.

[SaiK]

we all can agree and find reasons why LCA is slow and steady etc. but, no one seems to agree that it can't be dumped like hot potato., and running away from it at the point of nearing completion. what is the motto there?

[abhik]

China used hundreds of Mig19 & 21 clones between 1960 to 2000 as their primary air defense fighters. Similarly we can use 3000 LCA between 2015 to 2045 as our primary air defense and Strike aircraft. LCA stealth characteristics can be further improved by using stealth pods. We have to learn to rely upon ourselves.

This is seriously OT, but there is no indication that the doctrine of "huge quantity of pitiful quality" adopted by the Chinese in their worst nightmarish timeframes 1960-2000 would be appropriate for India in 2013. Heck it is not clear if it is being adopted even by Chinese right now.
...

China was a piss poor nation with massive military ambitions. And they fought their wars with what they had, cheap Mig knock-off's and human waves. As far as India is concerned our current defence budget we cannot acquire and maintain ~45 squadrons of 4/5 generation fighters, have 4000+ current gen tanks, equip our half a million infantry men with the latest kit and so on. This would be the case even if there were no scams, red tap and our acquisition process ran in an ideal manner. This fact has to be recognised and the futility of "get the best for our troops" should be realized. The way we are going about it now with MRCA et al is akin to giving one jawan a Merc to go to work(i.e war) and telling the other nine of his comrades to continue using their cycles.

[NRao]

The LCA is perhaps late based on promises made and associated expectations, but technically it is not late. In fact in a project like this I have no idea what people (in general) mean by "late". Heck SAP projects take eons, what to talk of a FIRST time complex system like the LCA.

Yes the amount of time consumed is irritating (perhaps to some something FAR more than that), but that is a part of such a project. Nothing anyone can do about that.

[Sanku]

This is seriously OT, but there is no indication that the doctrine of "huge quantity of pitiful quality" adopted by the Chinese in their worst nightmarish timeframes 1960-2000 would be appropriate for India in 2013. Heck it is not clear if it is being adopted even by Chinese right now.
...

China was a piss poor nation with massive military ambitions. And they fought their wars with what they had, cheap Mig knock-off's and human waves.

That then answers most of the issue straight off the bat, doesnt it. India is neither piss poor, neither has massive military ambitions. It therefore feels no need to kill millions of its own for very questionable military victories.

We believe in a balanced approach by and large, and that is what we have been following.

As far as India is concerned our current defence budget we cannot acquire and maintain ~45 squadrons of 4/5 generation fighters, have 4000+ current gen tanks, equip our half a million infantry men with the latest kit and so on..

Well we are certainly not even aiming for that right now, we are aiming for a far limited goal which we certainly can. The 5 gen fighters will come only much later. And only 20 odd sqdns are 4/4.5 gen with Su 30 and Rafaels. These numbers are well within reach.

We may not be able to get 3000 a/c, but the current level of projected force staffing is entirely within our budget, in fact it has been made with the budget in mind. Its only poor execution of ramp up of forces for any number of reasons that has led to a small drop in this number.

The 4/5 Gen planes making up IAF is about 20 years away, by which time it will be extremely critical to have all of this at 4/5 gen anyway.

This fact has to be recognised and the futility of "get the best for our troops" should be realized.

I do not think the forces are even trying to "get the best" -- there are only a few areas where the quality is absolutely critical such as front line fighters, where it is imperative for some people to get to war in a Merc, for early and specialized jobs, where as the rest follow on their cycles since that is all they have.

[nachiket]

As it stands, the LCA Mk1 is not ready. Even HAL doesn't say it is ready. It cannot perform any air defense duties unless they test and certify at least one BVR missile on it, which they haven't yet. So what exactly are you guys arguing about?

China used hundreds of Mig19 & 21 clones between 1960 to 2000 as their primary air defense fighters. Similarly we can use 3000 LCA between 2015 to 2045 as our primary air defense and Strike aircraft. LCA stealth characteristics can be further improved by using stealth pods. We have to learn to rely upon ourselves.

Do you think, even for a moment before you peddle such absurd numbers?

[Sanku]

So what exactly are you guys arguing about?

My argument is less with LCA and the principle of using quantity to substitute for quality in the Chinese way. On that topic I cant even think why LCA is being talked in the same breath as shitty Mig 19 clones that populated the suicidal AF of PLA. LCA is certainly not remotely a "lets make do with what we have" solution.

It is a best in class solution. Heck its light only compared to Su 30/Su 35 class of a/c now.

[SaiK]

Nothing anyone can do about that.

A lot can be done. list your concerns what do you think are that those can't be done including kaveri, aesa, etc. all the problems faced are due to mismanagement rather capabilities.

[Jamie Boscardin]

So what exactly are you guys arguing about?

My argument is less with LCA and the principle of using quantity to substitute for quality in the Chinese way. On that topic I cant even think why LCA is being talked in the same breath as shitty Mig 19 clones that populated the suicidal AF of PLA. LCA is certainly not remotely a "lets make do with what we have" solution.

It is a best in class solution. Heck its light only compared to Su 30/Su 35 class of a/c now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih8uxdSqADI

From 18mins onwards, this is IAF talking about LCA. If I may summarize what the slide says:
1. Current Maintenance Issues:
- Maturity in design and development.
- Important areas - fuel system, brakes and software
2. Integration of LRU's big challenge
- Stand alone performance significant
- Integration led to drop in reliability.
3. Technology Obsolence has already set in.
4. Only 50% LRU's are indegenized.
etc etc etc!!

Looking at the facts and extremely powerful arguments put forward , LCA is a "best-in-class" fighter not fit for IAF service and this is 2013.

[SaiK]

well, IAF pretty much is pissed off with HAL rather DRDO. Pl note on the copter issues and euro-copter parts and supplies problems as well. He was very much against the integrator, and giving all kudos to DRDO from individual performances point of view.

It is well understood, and openly criticized about HAL preparedness by Dr. Saraswat recently and asked them think about advancements. Even an HAL senior was seen missing from a recent meet.

HAL needs a lot of maturity and capability in production engineering and management. They are so big by number, and it is really hard to manage. It is high time they are right sized, reduced or distributed under an umbrella organization. Many of HAL works can be done by private as well.

It is important for HAL not to piss off the only user. If the user is dissatisfied, HAL should face the repentance, and must be punished.

[pentaiah]

But technically it can't help IAF unless we produce them no

Like SAP projects lets deprecate it make the best out of it as
Advanced light jet trainer instead of some one
Hawking hawks

At least give IAF chaps to try it out a squad for feed back no

[SaiK]

but it could be the non flying hawks that is causing all the heart-burns here. we all know our setup pretty much. when in doubt, keep your fingers ready to point any which way big deals happen.

[NRao]

Yes, today and in the near future it will not help the air force. More than that it is the expectations that have made life very miserable. No two ways about it.

BUT, IF we want an "Indian" plane at some time in the future this pain is a must. No one has - this pain has been felt by one and all. I really do not know how one can escape it.

Could they have done a better job, I think so. But even then there would have been pain.

I feel these guys are at the tail end of this pain (outside of the engine of course - that pain will remain for another 10-20 years IMHO). But it is the most painful - testing, validation, certification, etc. No experience there and no one will provide it. It takes time. And no shortcuts here.

??????

[SaiK]

The problem is none wants to do it.. cause, we have been spoiled by imports. spend the money, and get the dam thing,.. why sweat and whose benefits?

So, what if spares are not available.. make it so! become the world's best integrator. the problem is none is wanting to do so. Heroes are made by solving problems.. but the real heroes who are not at all respected are the fellas who work and toil hard to prevent the problems happening by excellent quality controls. No QC guys is respected and blamed rather.

This is the world.

[vic]

LCA is here and available now. In fact itis technological contemporary of Rafale. The production line is sanctioned only for 8 LCA, so production will naturally be slow. The logistical footprint of 3000 LCA will be no worse then imported maal and their over inflated spare parts bills. If we can maintain logistical footprint of say 5000 tanks then why not LCA. Our mentality is afflicted with import dependence and inability of thinking about using indigenous solutions. We have sanctioned additional Rs. 1500 crores for improving production line of T-90 over and above the import bill. What about investment in Arjun and LCA production line?

[Indranil]

A few reality checks.

LCA is here and available now

Where the hell is LSP-8. It has been 3 months since EGR.

What about investment in Arjun and LCA production line?

No less than Dr. Saraswat spoke about problems with Tejas production lines. And no the problems are neither with money, nor with land.

In fact itis technological contemporary of Rafale.

You have long been proposing scrapping MMRCA and PAKFA. Is it even physically possible for one or multiple LCAs to do the work of a MCA or a HCA?

[Sanku]

It is a best in class solution. Heck its light only compared to Su 30/Su 35 class of a/c now.

Looking at the facts and extremely powerful arguments put forward , LCA is a "best-in-class" fighter not fit for IAF service and this is 2013.[/quote]

I am not sure what you are saying here.
1) Is LCA a best in class fighter -- yes it is.
2) Is it ready for production and service -- no it is not.

Both are independent dimensions, I do not see a issue with one needing to be true for the other to be true.

My only contention was that saying "have a 100,000000 LCA like China did with cheap Mig 19 knock offs" is a incorrect analogy.

LCA is not a cheap knock off, it is a best in class solution and will remain so for next 5-10 years easily given the overall very slow pace of future developments overall now that the entire world wide aviation industry is in a mature phase.

[Jamie Boscardin]

Sanku da,

They are directly dependent on each other.
The IAF determines whether the LCA is the best in class fighter, after evaluating it. As it stands, the number of issues with the LCA is so high that unless they are addressed, they are determined to move on. Till it proves its mettle to the IAF, its not a worthy fighter aircraft and thus cannot be "best of any class"!

[nikhil_p]

Yesterday I was discussing with my mother about the LCA, I told her how many feel that we are taking too long and stuff and so on. She said she will respond sometime later about this.

Today morning, she asked me to come and help her in the kitchen. Now, we have a four burner gas stove. So she assigned me two and she was working on two. The task was to make chapatis (Rotis) and sabji (Vegetables) with Sambar and rice!...

In the time that it took me to make the rice and Sambar - my mom had made EVERYTHING! I made 5 chapatis (of every shape but round) and she had made 20 chapatis (all perfect). Then she made her point.

Till this time I did not realise that it was about the LCA that she was trying to explain a point.

She said, for her it is a matter of habit and knowledge - For me it is learning at the same time as doing it.

This actually links very well to the LCA saga - We are doing it for the 'first' time and we are doing a lot, we didn’t start with one small aircraft with manual controls and then moving to digital controls we took a leap.

The USA took more than 15 years to develop the F16 Falcon. That when they already had the base developed. The Gripen is almost 15 years as well, and in the future iteration will be an LCA equivalent in it being a fully integrated digital platform able to have a swing role. The JSF has run into trouble as well.

It is the difference between making mom cooked sambar and self cooked sambar... And hotel cooked sambar (which is not very healthy int he long run IMHO)

[mody]

The IAFs mindset with regards to the LCA also needs to change and change fast. They have to accept that LCA is not just any other aircraft that they are buying. Its not an established product, already in use elsewhere in the world and that they are simply another end user. They will have to work with DRDO and HAL to finally mature the product. Things like the training manual as well as the maintenance and operational manual etc. will have to be developed by IAF in collaboration with ADA and HAL. IAF cannot expect that these things will come ready for them. Also the requirement and availability for spares will be an issue to start with. Only the IAF will be able to guide the others with regards to requirement of spares and that too varies for every different kind of platform.
They have to become stake holders in the project and not just the customer.

The serial production for the LCA should be started after the IOC-2. The LSP-8 is going to be final configuration of the LCA. The milestones required to achieve the FOC should not hold up the manufacturing of the airframes for the serial production. This can speed up the process and HAL will be able to deliver the planes faster.

Hoping the LSP-8 flies soon and comes online. The no. of test flights that are going on since February sure indicate that things are being speeded up. Hope stays alive!!

[Ganesh_S]

Speaking of being contemporary to developed nations in no time is senseless. All the technology absorption which a backward nation lags is bound to take time. Unlike India, China has no options other than looking towards Russia for cutting edge tech and then reverse engineer a substandard product to gain a numerical advantage. whereas both IAF and IN have the privilege of procuring far advanced tech as compared to china. Of course, this is a luxury but doesn't help our cause entirely. IMO, if Rafale doesn't bring any significant capability that is not made redundant by FGFA then the objective of Procuring MMRCA is pointless as we may have been better off by focusing on producing LCA in numbers & tranches to strengthen our domestic supply chain & industrial capability. This way AMCA may stand to gain.

[Ramu]

My 2 paise worth of pisko.

I think we are confusing with 2 different things. The moment we differentiate which is which, everything becomes clear.
A product and a product roadmap.

Rafale is a product but LCA is a product roadmap.
Infact each of DRDO's projects are indeed a product roadmap not just a product.
DRDO has a clear roadmap when it comes to each of its projects like LCA, Arjun, missiles, chilli spray etc. etc..
But Someone needs to put a milestone in that roadmap and call it a product. In this case Tejas Mk1, Mk2 etc.

The core of the problem / root cause is due to someone's inability/inexperience in dealing with a roadmap instead of product.
Someone like babus, most of our armed forces, our free & independent thinking (?) press, etc.

Imagine if apple announces its roadmap for ipad - like ipad3gs, ipad4, ipad5, ipad5mini etc, "while selling its ipad3". I would choose to wait till ipad5mini is released. or I would get just one ipad3 instead of say 4 - for my wife, parents, brothers, children etc.

This inexperience is clearly visible in case of our armed forces. armed forces have been moving milestones initially set (arbitrarily) by DRDO as a common practice across all DRDO's projects.

One needs to understand there is no definite finish line to such a project. Our projects will stop when someone don't want to put the next milestone in its roadmap for any reasons.

"LCA will be obsolete by the time it is inducted"

This line has become my favourite and classic. It has been repeated so many times in so many articles.
Ofcourse it will be. for example. Tejas Mk1 would have already become obsolete in many people's thoughts. Because they already know about MK2.
Has it actually become obsolete? We will have to ask some 200+ countries who don't have their own fighter planes.
By the time MK2 hits the production line, it will also be obsolete "in our minds", just because there is an AMCA coming.

But we don't hear about Rafale NG, while ordering the current Rafale. so, it is not yet obsolete in our minds.

I am not saying we should hide the entire roadmap from everyone. But I am saying we need to develop our own maturity in our thoughts to deal with an entire roadmap... starting from our babus & armed forces. They are clearly lacking it and this is a core issue according to me.

Someone passing out his engineering and deciding to comment on how obsolete LCA is, instead of worrying about the entire road ahead of his life
is a least of my worry.

[Sanku]

Sanku da,

They are directly dependent on each other.
The IAF determines whether the LCA is the best in class fighter, after evaluating it. As it stands, the number of issues with the LCA is so high that unless they are addressed, they are determined to move on. Till it proves its mettle to the IAF, its not a worthy fighter aircraft and thus cannot be "best of any class"!

Jamie-ji; you are talking from a deployment PoV which I agree with. What I am saying is from a specs point of view "If the LCA was to work as advertised with the production issues all sorted out" -- an LCA meeting the ASRs so to say.

Such a LCA if delivered is not like the comparison with cheap chinese clones.

However I fully understand that there are currently issues in getting the plane out as per specs. All I am saying is that it is a different issue from what I was talking of.

[karan_mc]

At least i am not leaving in a fantasy world , and talking 800 or 3000 LCA

Yeah I am quite sure you are not "leaving" your fantasy world and are a permanent resident there, so keep it up.

Dame Auto correction . So what is your Argument ?? 800 LCA ? Ok Done , When was the last newly Build LCA went up in Air ?? (LSP-7 – 9 March 2012) .

[Sid]

Only agency which is a strong proponent of LCA program is Navy, as stakes are high for them. Hopefully a strong LCA navy version will automatically propel numbers for IAF too.

Next version to watch out should be LCA Navy MK2. Where any timelines shared for Navy MK2 during Aero India or its same as IAF MK2 version?