LCA News and Discussions

vic · Post by **vic** » 26 Mar 2013 20:48

Even Rafale will not come before 5 years from today. The issue is we are unable to adopt " we can " attitude with LCA. Even Agustawestland was not suitable, till it became suitable. LCA is too light and Arjun is too heavy. Prahhar is too big, AAD is too long, INSAS leaks oil, the list of stupid excuses go on. Nobody conquered China when it was using Mig-19 s and 21s.

Indian Services could not do without TATRA, see how it is replaced within few months.

MRCA and PAKFA will generate bribes of USD 30 Billion over 30 years. That's their main triumph over LCA. The annual cost of Rafale would be around USD 10 million, now compare with LCA!

The first Chinese stealth aircraft, first Chinese aircraft carrier were indigenous, but Indian army officers were collecting benefits for importing small arms from SIG.

manum · Post by **manum** » 26 Mar 2013 21:04

Nobody can change it...even the least corrupt Defense Minister...Its evident that process needs to be in comparison and kept open for everyone to see...
but who knows how ugly it is behind the edifice of pride.

koti · Post by **koti** » 26 Mar 2013 21:25

vic wrote:Indian Services could not do without TATRA, see how it is replaced within few months.

sorry OT
By what saab?
I am sure there were somethings from TATA but I did not stumble on anything specific. Any links if you may?

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 26 Mar 2013 22:31

Product Road map is built into Product no?

Product Road Map is the GPS device

Product Master is LCA

which I think I AF needs

unless I am utterly wrong

*****
Koti Saab

Koti Saab wrote: By what SAAB

I guess is Swedish company

vic · Post by **vic** » 26 Mar 2013 22:40

Let's see the options of Oil marketing guy heading HAL. If he pushes HTT-40, IJT, LCA then he has to work hard and all he gets is criticism. Now if he slows down indigenous programs and pushes more PC-7, Hawk and Rafale then he gets money and back pats from IAF, babus and the family. The evidence is there for all to see. HAL guys are too busy to even attend the conference for RTA.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 27 Mar 2013 00:44

karan_mc wrote:Dame (Damn) Auto correction . So what is your Argument ?? 800 LCA ? Ok Done , When was the last newly Build LCA went up in Air ?? (LSP-7 – 9 March 2012) .

800 LCA is not my argument ask for clarification from people who have made it all that I know is this that what LCA has taught us in terms of technology, man management, programme management, team work, perseverance and many other things no PAK FA, MMRCA, Su-30 MKI etc. etc. has been able to do all these years or will be able to do in the coming years as well. So I find it very hard to digest below the belt comments by people who think they are smarter than the guys working on the project. Maybe such people are smarter than the guys working on LCA but then all these smart asses didn't do shit for LCA hence I don't see the point of allowing such people to make merry by making undeserving comments about the national project and the associated people when they hardly understand anything related with it.

I think it is very well documented that why did LSP's took so much time, the knowledge about the same is every much public. Do your homework well if you want to be taken seriously.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 27 Mar 2013 01:02

Jamie Boscardin wrote:From 18mins onwards, this is IAF talking about LCA. If I may summarize what the slide says:

I am sorry, "summarize what the slide says" !!!!! Whom are you trying to fool you have typed in almost word by word what the slide has and you are saying "summarized"

Jamie Boscardin wrote:Looking at the facts and extremely powerful arguments put forward , LCA is a "best-in-class" fighter not fit for IAF service and this is 2013.

ek aur namuna aa gaya

Please explain to me the "facts" and "extremely powerful arguments" that you are able to see in the presentation. Also do go till the end of the presentation and see how the gentleman from IAF gets owned by the CEMILAC guy.

koti · Post by **koti** » 27 Mar 2013 02:51

Found at Militaryphotos.net

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 27 Mar 2013 11:29

koti wrote:...
Found at Militaryphotos.net

kotiji, that is taken from tejas.gov.in site. here is the link -

http://gallery.tejas.gov.in/Gallery/tej ... &k=PhKWLKx

watch it in high resolution full screen. it is really good. can somebody identify the test pilot?

also tejas at AEROINDIA 2013, suneet krishna piloting it -

http://gallery.tejas.gov.in/Gallery/Tej ... &k=nQ9hZsb

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 28 Mar 2013 01:47

Guru log
Remember we ordered some 100 GE 404 engines are they sitting in some warehouse
If they are then hurry slowly and build at least 25 LSP
so that we can use the 75 for maintenance
Or book some orders from Nigeria they have bulk drug money and oil
Then IAF may start buying no

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Mar 2013 02:21

pentaiah wrote:Remember we ordered some 100 GE 404 engines are they sitting in some warehouse

We never ordered 100 GE 404s. The numbers ordered were 17 (in 2004 for LSPs) + 24(in 2008 for SPs).

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 28 Mar 2013 04:58

^^^
I think we did. At-least GE won the competition.

--Ashish

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 28 Mar 2013 06:17

Misraji wrote:^^^
I think we did. At-least GE won the competition.

--Ashish

Thank you for your close and low air support against Ack ack guns.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Mar 2013 06:18

Misraji wrote:^^^
I think we did. At-least GE won the competition.

--Ashish

That's the F414 for the mk2. Not the F404. Even the livefist article says what indranil did about the 404s.

This selection follows earlier orders of 24 nos. F404-GE-IN20 engines in 2007, plus an initial 2004 purchase of 17 nos. F404-GE-IN20 engines to power a limited series of operational production aircraft and naval prototypes.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 28 Mar 2013 06:53

LCA LSP-8 getting ready for first flight in next few days ...

Tejas LSP-8 warms up for first flight amid uneasy calm | Widespread concern over inferior build-standard quality of Tejas

...
“We are closing in and the flight is expected in the next couple of days, if there are no last-minute surprises,” sources said.
...
...
The cracks in the project are becoming wide open with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) refusing to entertain any media queries on Tejas. Sources say that there’s an uneasy calm prevailing in the programme, with increasing doubts being raised by various agencies over the quality of Tejas being produced by HAL.
...
...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Mar 2013 07:57

^^ adding more

Quality concerns: Insiders associated with the project, however, say that there are many build-standard quality concerns of Tejas, all pointing towards HAL. “We have huge concerns with the inferior standards of Tejas. The aerodynamics differences of the contour surfaces are a concern. The ADA-HAL team is addressing the issue, with actual readings and predicted values telling different stories,” says a senior IAF official.
The cracks in the project are becoming wide open with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) refusing to entertain any media queries on Tejas. Sources say that there’s an uneasy calm prevailing in the programme, with increasing doubts being raised by various agencies over the quality of Tejas being produced by HAL.
HAL sources said that any modification introduced on the aircraft has to undergo an extensive evaluation and validation by designers and certification agencies, before the production agency can implement it. “The exercise is a time-consuming one. Accordingly, the LSP-8 is now ready to take to the skies with all the improvements introduced over the last few years,” HAL sources said.

That is not good for HAL. They better buck up, or quit taking total ownership than rather just being the integrator, while private start pitching in for the quality works they should fear to deliver to required standards.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Mar 2013 08:38

Oh come on give us a break. Now that they have no other issues to raise, they start with the build quality after all their Test pilots have flown the Tejas 200 times? With the MMRCA nowhere in sight and corrupt procurement mafia coming out against yet another domestic weapon system. How low can we fall?

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 28 Mar 2013 08:45

nachiket wrote: That's the F414 for the mk2. Not the F404. Even the livefist article says what indranil did about the 404s.
This selection follows earlier orders of 24 nos. F404-GE-IN20 engines in 2007, plus an initial 2004 purchase of 17 nos. F404-GE-IN20 engines to power a limited series of operational production aircraft and naval prototypes.

Oh. Fair point. I stand corrected.

pentaiah wrote:Thank you for your close and low air support against Ack ack guns.

We were both wrong, if thats any consolation ...

--Ashish

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Mar 2013 08:48

Vivek K wrote:Oh come on give us a break. Now that they have no other issues to raise, they start with the build quality after all their Test pilots have flown the Tejas 200 times? With the MMRCA nowhere in sight and corrupt procurement mafia coming out against yet another domestic weapon system. How low can we fall?

Vivek sahab, is this not baseless insinuation. They are not in the market for any other plane to replace the light fighters. It is not just the IAF, V.K. Saraswat raised this question recently. He does not have vested interests.

LCA may be a wonderful plane. Each individual LSP might be wonderful. But for squadron level service, the planes should stick to within a standard of each other. HAL needs to immediately look into developing a 4th gen assembly line for a 4+ gen plane like LCA(again Dr. Saraswat's words).

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 28 Mar 2013 11:08

Marten wrote:The same Dr VKS also said the assembly line being setup now (from which LSP 8 will roll out) will be the production line.
There is a slow and steady media build-up to scuttle the LCA. HAL also would prefer assembling a fighter in which margins are higher and Units lower.

HAL cannot be replaced, nor the IAF. So, as it goes, LCA will.

I won't be surprised at the quality issues from HAL. Heard quite a few stories and also read about that. I'm sure that HAL would prefer assembling a fighter not just because margins are higher. If there are any problems in assembling they can always run to the OEM for support - here if they run to ADA it won't help as ADA is not a production agency who can help out in production issues. HAL will have to sort it out themselves.

I get the feeling that HAL is overloaded and that the LCA is last priority for them since its not their product.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 28 Mar 2013 15:06

http://idrw.org/?p=20164

The near-perfect production standard version of India’s light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas is ready for its first flight at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) airport in Bangalore. Sources confirm to Express on Wednesday that the Flight Readiness Review Board (FRRB) has now cleared the limited series production (LSP-8) of Tejas for its flight, with a rider that it needs to undertake one more engine ground run (EGR), low-speed taxi trial (LSTT) and high-speed taxi trial (HSTT).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Mar 2013 17:38

Either you all wake up to HAL reality, or shutdown this thread in the not so distant future. I don't see the feelers out in the public is in the right direction. Don't understand what more warning shots are required for our firang loving folks.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Mar 2013 21:46

My feel is that they did not test every component (see below)- as would be expected - expecting those not done to be done some time down the road - kick-the-can. Now it has come to bite them - they do not have the time to complete the tasks.

“Today, HAL has 3rd generation production lines and we need modern ones to replace it. Tejas is a 4th generation aircraft and if we have the vision of exporting this aircraft one day, then rolling out quality aircraft is the key. The problems faced by Tejas are all related to auxiliary systems, be it the fuels lines or lightening arrester. Tejas Mk-II will be the future mainstay and we need to address quality concerns at the earliest,” Saraswat said.

Jamie Boscardin · Post by **Jamie Boscardin** » 28 Mar 2013 23:57

Sagar G wrote:
Jamie Boscardin wrote:From 18mins onwards, this is IAF talking about LCA. If I may summarize what the slide says:
I am sorry, "summarize what the slide says" !!!!! Whom are you trying to fool you have typed in almost word by word what the slide has and you are saying "summarized"

Jamie Boscardin wrote:Looking at the facts and extremely powerful arguments put forward , LCA is a "best-in-class" fighter not fit for IAF service and this is 2013.
ek aur namuna aa gaya

Please explain to me the "facts" and "extremely powerful arguments" that you are able to see in the presentation. Also do go till the end of the presentation and see how the gentleman from IAF gets owned by the CEMILAC guy.

Who is the "acting namuna" is well understood by people who can go through a video and understand what that says.

You can keep acting an educated illiterate all your life!

Pl watch your language next time

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 29 Mar 2013 06:53

Jamie, please put forward your facts. The LCA is described as an excellent machine. It has been ready for some time. But somehow, our deep rooted corruption comes to the fore again. The procurement mafia is used to and addicted to foreign masters wining and dining them and providing hefty bribes to commit treason.
The LCA is ready to replace the Mig21 for point defence and instead of raising doubts, we need to clone it in the hundreds.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Mar 2013 07:12

It is more important to do it right than do it right away. However, that does not mean lethargic nature to establish to engineering requirements.

vic · Post by **vic** » 29 Mar 2013 08:14

It is difficult to believe that HAL remembered about the production line after 34 years into the LCA project. The thing is now :-

HTT-40 vs PC-7
Saras vs Dornier
IJT vs Hawk
LCA vs costly upgrades + MRCA

If HAL pushes indigenous products then no mullah for the management. But if it falls in line delays indigenous products and assembles foreign products then BBB all round.

vina · Post by **vina** » 29 Mar 2013 09:43

Hmm. Roar of jet engines, sounds like the GE404 . Is it the Yell Yess Pee - Yeight, taking to the air today ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Mar 2013 11:50

We have yet to perfect our engineering capability according to some experts and have yet to master an efficient production line that gives both quality and quantity on time.Whether it is the Arjun/tanks or the LCA,it is almost the same problem.Even in warships and subs,we lack a modular system of building.This why there are delays with the IAC,Scorpenes,LCA,etc.Unless the potential of pvt. industry is unlleashed, which is far more on the ball with production costs and quality,in a competitive market,the PSUs will never progress enough to catch up with "modern times".

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 29 Mar 2013 15:16

On the way to church, I saw a green paint LCA, should be LSP-8

Yesterday I saw a green paint hawk too

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Mar 2013 18:37

green paint? Hmmm ... SP-1 had a green paint.

LSP-8 is yellow.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Mar 2013 21:05

might be looking green during dusk.. some times the reflection of surrounding greenery could also add in. btw, it is disheartening to hear HAL unpreparedness towards LCA. I am suspecting we are shooting our own foot with our setup. we have long way to go for technology freedom.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Mar 2013 21:58

Flight Test Update.

LCA-Tejas has completed 2106 Test Flights Successfully. (20-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-354,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-70,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4)

To

LCA-Tejas has completed 2109 Test Flights Successfully. (25-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-356,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-71,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2013 08:37

looking back at history, how many product has HAL assembled under license ?

- folland gnat - did we license make it here or import as full built?
- AlouetteIII (chetak)
- Llama
- jaguar
- Mig21
- Mig27
- Su30
- Hawk
- Kiran
- HPT32
- Marut

anything else? I realize for other machines there would be some localization of spare parts and base repair but not the full kitchen sink of production line from a blank slate.

all the rest like vampire, hunter, canberra, mystere, ouragon, mig23, mig29, m2k, fairchild packet, Mi26, an32, caribou , Mi8, Mi17, Mi24, Mi35....were all imported as full built ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2013 10:29

excerpt from a tarmak article on QC "doubts" being expressed on the contour surface variations :

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2013/03/te ... light.html

--
I see it as 3 levels of evolution
1) unique custom parts needed for each a/c due to variations (someone was saying HAL made an32 doors are that way). F22 raptor also has this system per reports inspite of +ve psyops.
1a) those parts once supplied reliably work and aerodynamically do not impact - raptor
1b) aerodynamic variations if the skin parts itself are different - the "doubts" being expressed here
2) unique custom parts for certain sets of a/c that have the same variations - not ideal but liveable if the sets are large enough
3) totally interhangeable parts like say a honda or toyota car will use same parts over a production run in lakhs of units.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Mar 2013 13:34

Singha wrote:looking back at history, how many product has HAL assembled under license ?

- folland gnat - did we license make it here or import as full built?

Licence make, also one of the first few A/c to be expanded in India into Ajeet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Ajeet

Gnat was one of the success stories of IAF/HAL. Of taking a a/c and being actually able to solve problems, upgd and maintain the fleet entirely in house.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 30 Mar 2013 16:59

cross-post
--------------------
India: Tejas must be operational by 2014

Defense Minister A.K. Antony warned the government's defense businesses to make sure the long-awaited Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is ready no later than 2014.

Antony's warning was part of a general statement during his opening presentation to the 37th Directors Conference at the Defense Research and Development Organization.

Antony urged government-run agencies -- in particular the DRDO -- to speed up their work.

It was DRDO Chief V.K. Saraswat who set the date, he said, when the Tejas should pass final operational clearance for induction into the air force.

Antony praised the completed projects including the Agni-5 and the BrahMos missile systems as examples of good indigenous research and development.

But DRDO scientists should focus on priority areas where the ultimate test of success of the organization, its products and services lies in satisfaction of end-users, India's armed forces, he said.

"The successes shouldn't make us complacent and unfinished projects, which are in the pipeline for a very long time, should be concluded at the earliest," Antony said.

To achieve this, the DRDO remains essential for development of the country's defense manufacturing sector, he said.

"If our indigenization goals are to be realized, DRDO will have to take the lead in this regard," Antony said. "Other stakeholders, for instance the (military) services, the Ministry of Defense and private industry in the defense sector, must cooperate to ensure quick, honest and transparent acceptance of the systems."

The single-engine, single-pilot Tejas, being manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., was given the green light by the government in 1983 but it wasn't until 1988 that more concrete designs were on the drawing board.

Delays ensued, including issues over the design and performance of the intended Kaveri engine, a DRDO partnership deal with Snecma of France.

A Tejas prototype eventually flew for the first time in January 2001 -- but with a U.S.-made General Electric F-404 engine as a stop-gap.

A long-term deal with GE for 99 engines -- likely the upgraded 414 -- worth $800 million was signed this year because of further delays to development of the Kaveri engine. GE won over Eurojet's EJ-200 engine, a report by the Deccan Herald newspaper said.

Last month, the DRDO confirmed it had abandoned plans to jointly develop and produce the Kaveri military aircraft engine solely with Snecma, a report by AIN Online news said.

"We still need an overseas partner but it won't be Snecma on a single-vendor basis," C.P. Ramanarayanan, director of the DRDO's Gas Turbine Research Establishment, said. "We will select our partner through competitive bidding."

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Mar 2013 00:43

I say put an end to this competitive bidding.. this effed strategy already proved wrong.. what the heck is wrong with everyone? we have tried more than twice - GE, P&W rejection, Snecma rejection twice.. and EJ lost out narrow. What the heck!!!??

Just list out in the order of priorities what needs to be done...like

1. 2K TET turbine SC blades
2. sensors
3. controls

etc.. and check out where and what we lack. Get consultants to work on piece meal basis.. and get the thing done on a contractual basis with consulting orgs.

this is what china has started doing./i am raising the bar now.

Will · Post by **Will** » 31 Mar 2013 01:09

[quote]"If our indigenization goals are to be realized, DRDO will have to take the lead in this regard," Antony said.

Its this type of thinking which will make the whole concept of indigenisation fail. Expecting the private sector just to play second fiddle isnt giving the private sector enough incentive. DRDO and the DPSU's inspite of a few successes are primarly responsible for the lack of indigenous capability today.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Mar 2013 01:14

The absolute worst thing India can do - at this point in time - is to point fingers.

Get a plan in place and act on it.

It really should not matter who has done what in the past and who should lead in the future.