LCA News and Discussions

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Mar 2013 02:25

The worst is happening.. HAL is being pointed, and rightly so.. DRDO is pointed, and rightly so, and babooze are always pointing. Plans can come everyone's left pocket at will, but who is there to act on it? none is taking responsibilities, and every other org seems to be reckless when it comes to precision engineering needs.

Matter of urgent priorities are:
- Kaveri and turbine engineering
- Production Engineering advancements
- Augmented Test facitilities

Private participation in these areas are excellent to have.
At a price, we can point a finger at them, and even middle, they would take it and fight for the customer rightly.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Mar 2013 04:16

Will wrote:
"If our indigenization goals are to be realized, DRDO will have to take the lead in this regard," Antony said.

Its this type of thinking which will make the whole concept of indigenisation fail. Expecting the private sector just to play second fiddle isnt giving the private sector enough incentive. DRDO and the DPSU's inspite of a few successes are primarly responsible for the lack of indigenous capability today.

Which pretty much shows how little you know of the topic. Since almost all of the private sector military capability that has come up is thanks to the DRDO, starting from Kalam personally requesting Indian firms to assist with the IGMDP in the 80's when private firms were least bothered with defence, to his juniors and sucessors across many labs having private companies involve themselves in everything from electronic warfare to radars, or even take up key responsibilities in programs such as Tejas, despite widespread skepticism from the bureaucracy and push back from the DPSUs. This means a bunch of SMEs across India, some started with a nucleus of retired designers and personnel from state owned firms, now supplying critical assemblies to Indian defence projects. Other companies which were handheld by labs such as ADA to understand the demanding requirements of projects like Tejas and iteratively have their products develop through several variants, till a decade later they were fit for replacing world class systems hitherto imported for the Tejas.

What Antony has conveniently left unsaid is whether DRDO gets carte blanche to select its partners for production or even design & development. In the past, DRDO has tied up with private firms to design systems and even get them to production, only to have the bulk production contract given to DPSUs.

Simply put, Mr Antony needs to fund DRDO properly & second, give them freedom to choose their partner/s as they see fit, and not restrict them to the DPSUs, which thanks to their labor unions are a powerful votebank.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Mar 2013 04:41

Marten wrote:The same Dr VKS also said the assembly line being setup now (from which LSP 8 will roll out) will be the production line.
There is a slow and steady media build-up to scuttle the LCA. HAL also would prefer assembling a fighter in which margins are higher and Units lower.

HAL cannot be replaced, nor the IAF. So, as it goes, LCA will.

There is simply put a lot of challenge in the Indian system because of the dysfunctional nature of funding allocation, and the near complete lack of responsibility/joint ownership shown by the MOD, which allows for petulance by both the IAF and HAL, with each seeking to ringfence its funding.

The IAF wants as much funding as possible for any "developmental project" to come out of DPSU/DRDO's budget. They have had to be dragged kicking and screaming to funding national projects, and that too after the MOD's favoured CGDA published a report. This process then took several years, and the IAF has now made a virtue out of necessity, tom tomming its investment in local projects but nonetheless seeking to watch from the sidelines & avoid either decision making roles (which means taking responsibility if things don't go as planned or having to sign off on something they agreed on). Even so, after the aforesaid report, the IAF has been directed to fund a certain portion of any project made for it, with another portion to be picked up by the production agency (usually a DPSU), with the majority around 50%+ coming from the DRDO head.
The local private design & develop private sector initiative remains stillborn with projects like the IFV remaining stuck in miles of red tape.

In a similar manner, DPSUs want to avoid taking capex burden. They have by now got used to having a cushy relationship with the MOD, wherein they enjoy first picks at DRDO projects, and hence their "investment" in design & development translates to series production. Here, the smaller system of system projects, like radars/EW/missiles have BEL et al chip in happily, since they get their returns. For programs like the Tejas, or Arjun - partners like the HAL and OFB, are more risk averse. Why invest huge amounts in a production line that may wait for orders till the product clears trials? After all, the DPSU has to run a positive income statement, and then pass its dividends to the MOD, with the media invited and an outsized check presented to the Saint or whosoever visits the headquarters.
Easier to even license produce than invest in an own fighter, especially when its from a design house that could be a possible rival & is actually somewhat regarded as an outsider which has barged into HALs turf.

So here is the state of affairs, and why it takes eons for files to move to get production rates from 6-8/year to the desired 20/year. Only after a lot of cribbing, has the MOD finally agreed to have HAL move to 20/year, and it does seem HAL will finally fork over the money - or a lot of it - to have this upgrade done. But they'll do their best to have it included in the LCA budgetary head itself.

All this sort of back & forth rubbish, where everyone wants the "other guy" to spend, is why VKS had said that future programs need to take into account the investment in manufacturing technology to make the item as well. Of course, if that is done, then the program budgets will rise & there will be those who will insist that these programs should and must go to a DPSU, since its Govt money and putting it any one private firm will be bias versus the rest. That arguement will often be made by some private firms who lose the bid as well. Antony's "escape" clause from all this, was to not commit any investment from GOI (which is anyways broke with all its employement schemes) and ask private firms to invest on their own for national good etc etc.

Needless to say, their response (at the mass manufacture level, involving capex of millions of dollars) has not exactly been overwhelming

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Mar 2013 04:49

NRao wrote:My feel is that they did not test every component (see below)- as would be expected - expecting those not done to be done some time down the road - kick-the-can. Now it has come to bite them - they do not have the time to complete the tasks.

“Today, HAL has 3rd generation production lines and we need modern ones to replace it. Tejas is a 4th generation aircraft and if we have the vision of exporting this aircraft one day, then rolling out quality aircraft is the key. The problems faced by Tejas are all related to auxiliary systems, be it the fuels lines or lightening arrester. Tejas Mk-II will be the future mainstay and we need to address quality concerns at the earliest,” Saraswat said.

You cannot test every component to the desired level if you don't have flying test beds. Unlike the EU/US/Russia, neither do we have 3-4 fighter/bomber programs running along, where components get "proofed" and variants are available for new programs. Since everything on the LCA is new, they run test scenarios on ground test beds with rigs that simulate the larger system of which that component is a part. For instance, an actuator would be part of the Iron Bird. But what do you do when an auxiliary system, hitherto identified as Tier 2 in the risk matrix has issues when taken up in the air? Such issues do keep arising in any developmental program. The IAF's insistence that the LCA be as indigenous as possible, also means that the ADA has to rely more and more on SME's and local firms, several of whom are new to the stringent aerospace validation system. They may have made items for automotive firms, or other industries. Again, another challenge, since thanks to Govt interference all the way to the 90's, HAL et al did not even develop their own R&D to become true centers of excellence in subsystem design and manufacture. As a result of which, despite being vertically integrated in manufacturing for licensed production programs, the same depth of expertise does not exist to assist the Tejas. These are the real issues.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Mar 2013 06:18

good politics can be played to energize to satisfy needs. however, it is not healthy if we continue on this path is my feeling. yes, we are doing it everything new here.. and much appreciated, and at the same time, all deficiencies must put on the table, roll up our sleeves and start working towards establishing what is remaining to be done.

it does not matter who does it, but as long as it respects the program charter., and fulfills our security requirements in a reasonable time.

manum · Post by **manum** » 31 Mar 2013 08:02

regime is going to change...I am hoping this is not what HAL is waiting...
they have already sailed LCA through 9 years of this regime...

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 31 Mar 2013 09:37

We are and never serious about developing anything in country itself.
Even 100 yrs of IIT or CSIRs DRDOs can not do that
Why?

We do not foster a culture of innovation, hard way of learning and the pride of doing it with our own hands.

In two years of living desh and doing my own maintenance on Maruti 800 even my apartment chowkidar thought I did not have officer like qualities and was kanjoos doing my own maintenance!

Basically if you are engineer and oil you hands Indians think you are Saadi chap mechanic but never understand the joy of doing things... Even our labs will delegate it to workshop turner or machinist rather than load the chuck or spindle and operate a milling machine.

It's culture babu culture....

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 31 Mar 2013 11:45

Jamie Boscardin wrote:Who is the "acting namuna" is well understood by people who can go through a video and understand what that says.

You can keep acting an educated illiterate all your life!

Pl watch your language next time

That's all you could come up with ??? Well I am not surprised given that your previous attempt was to plagiarise and pass it off as summary and that too from a whine loaded presentation which had no place in an international event. Hiding behind the name of IAF is not going to fool me about your knowledge relating to LCA which is at "ghanta" level currently.

If you want to act as a dumbass fine by me but do so in an appropriate thread because if you come here thinking about throwing dirt on LCA to massage your hollow ego then let me tell you you are in for a very tough time here.

Please watch the contents of your post next time because the same is going to decide how you will be treated.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 31 Mar 2013 11:53

Will wrote:Its this type of thinking which will make the whole concept of indigenisation fail. Expecting the private sector just to play second fiddle isnt giving the private sector enough incentive.

No the thinking is apt given that DRDO is the leader in defence related R&D in India. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you ask the leader to take charge of the situation. Regarding the pvt. sector the point has been repeated several times that it is no silver bullet which is going to solve India's defence woes and Anthony had also asked the pvt. sector some time ago to increase spending in R&D. Now why did he say so, have you given a thought on that ???

Will wrote:DRDO and the DPSU's inspite of a few successes are primarly responsible for the lack of indigenous capability today.

They are also responsible for the creation of whatever capability we have today in defence. The line of thinking that you are exhibiting is also of no help in understanding/solving the indigenization problem that we face.

sharma.abhinav · Post by **sharma.abhinav** » 31 Mar 2013 14:02

Just in from Tarmak007 on FB

Tejas LSP-8 goes supersonic, and achieves Alpha 20 -- both key IOC parameters. More soon

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 31 Mar 2013 15:48

So LSP-8 already had a first flight!!! That's a quiet surprise. There has been heightened activity from the LCA front, never thought it would be LSP-8.

Good to hear...

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 31 Mar 2013 18:40

Test flight on a Sunday, speaks volumes of the commitment. It was also test flown by the NFTC director which is intersting too. Btw wasnt the Aplha achieved 24deg ? After the test flight typically the a/c doesnt fly for a month may be painiting and other works

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 31 Mar 2013 18:52

Congrats to HAL for delivering their first LCA... har har mahadev!!

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 31 Mar 2013 19:19

Finally, Tejas LSP-8 Takes Off - Livefist

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 31 Mar 2013 19:23

Kakarat wrote:Finally, Tejas LSP-8 Takes Off - Livefist

The last aircraft in the Limited Series Production program of LCA-Tejas (LSP-08) took off on its maiden flight here today from HAL airport. The performance of the aircraft was flawless, said Dr. R. K.Tyagi, Chairman, HAL. The aircraft was flown covering a flight envelope at supersonic speeds and at an angle of attack of 20 degrees which is the current maximum limit cleared by design. With this, the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) for the aircraft can be expected soon.
Air Cmde K.A. Muthana, VSM, Program Director (Flight Test) piloted the aircraft on its maiden flight

The aircraft with a build standard akin to the Initial Operation Clearance standard underwent series of rigorous checks by the certifying and inspecting agencies during the last fortnight with a few taxy checks to assess the aircraft performance. The flight clearance by the certifying agencies was accorded today for the aircraft after ensuring that all the aircraft systems were functioning satisfactorily on ground. Till now aircraft normally undergo high speed taxy trials prior to the first flight. However, with the confidence gained by the flight crew and the certifying agencies during the build and ground checks a decision was taken to proceed with first flight without going through a separate high speed taxy trial.

Aircraft systems related to fuel, environment condition, electrical and avionics which had undergone series of modifications based on feedback from earlier aircraft functioned well.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Mar 2013 19:43

Kakarat wrote:

Looks Awesome , the Glass Canopy seems to have some kind of coating. Air Intake also seems slightly bigger.

nash · Post by **nash** » 31 Mar 2013 20:39

AFAIK LSP-6 is for AoA Testing, is it mean LSP-6 being tested.

or LSP-6 is for more AoA(22-24) .

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 31 Mar 2013 20:59

Finally its here. LSP-8

Congratulations!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Mar 2013 21:02

which a/c will join the IAF in Sulur @ IOC - will it be a mix of the current a/c (with maybe 1-2 retained @ HAL) or they will now produce a few more exactly similar to LSP-8?

next big milestone would be firing derby AAM against lakshya targets flying at long range and various ceilings and speeds. could be quite a few tests there to gain confidence in the radar + missile combo which unfortunately is not tested on a israeli fighter due to US blocking the idea of it on F-16I Sufa. our sea harriers must have done it though.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 31 Mar 2013 21:10

Looks like there are no dummy AA missiles fitted on LSP-8. Most of the others had the missiles when they flew on their maiden flights.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 31 Mar 2013 21:46

Putnanja ji lsp7 too flew without dummy a2a missile

koti · Post by **koti** » 31 Mar 2013 22:00

putnanja wrote:Looks like there are no dummy AA missiles fitted on LSP-8. Most of the others had the missiles when they flew on their maiden flights.

Are you sure they are dummy A2A missiles? I was thinking they were some kind of smoke dispensers to possibly observe the airflow or something.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 31 Mar 2013 22:06

This is interesting -

The aircraft was flown covering a flight envelope at supersonic speeds and at an angle of attack of 20 degrees which is the current maximum limit cleared by design.

What were the AOA requirements? What is the max speed attained by the LCA?

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 31 Mar 2013 22:49

I believe the AOA requirement was and still is 24 degrees which would be tried to expand to 26 degrees. As far as I remember, Tejas went supersonic in her first flights so supersonic speeds might have been regular, but mach 2 might be the first. There might be some kind of an error in the AOA reporting because Tejas was already cleared for 22-24 degrees I think. Also, test flights on saturdays and sundays have been there for a long time, does speak of the dedication.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 31 Mar 2013 22:51

Ivanev wrote:I believe the AOA requirement was and still is 24 degrees which would be tried to expand to 26 degrees. As far as I remember, Tejas went supersonic in her first flights so supersonic speeds might have been regular, but mach 2 might be the first. There might be some kind of an error in the AOA reporting because Tejas was already cleared for 22-24 degrees I think. Also, test flights on saturdays and sundays have been there for a long time, does speak of the dedication.

Where is it reported that LCA LSP-8 reached mach-2 speeds? Mach-2 was never the designed speed, it was around Mach 1.6.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 31 Mar 2013 23:09

putnanja wrote: Where is it reported that LCA LSP-8 reached mach-2 speeds? Mach-2 was never the designed speed, it was around Mach 1.6.

Sorry, my bad!!!

srai · Post by **srai** » 31 Mar 2013 23:50

Singha wrote:which a/c will join the IAF in Sulur @ IOC - will it be a mix of the current a/c (with maybe 1-2 retained @ HAL) or they will now produce a few more exactly similar to LSP-8?

...

First lot of 20 LCA Mk. 1 will be this LSP-8 IOC standard. Subsequent lot of 20 LCA will be FOC standard.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Apr 2013 01:50

what are those packages (any rafale type sensors planned?) on either top side of the diverter plates. was it there on lsp-7?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Apr 2013 01:56

LCA Flight test update (till Mar 29, doesn't include LSP-8 yet)

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2109 Test Flights Successfully. (25-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-356,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-71,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4)

To

LCA-Tejas has completed 2111 Test Flights Successfully. (29-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-358,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-71,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4)

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 01 Apr 2013 08:02

It took more than year to build another LSP - 09 March 2012 - LCA Tejas LSP-7 vs 31 March 2013 - LCA Tejas LSP-8

by this way it will take more than 6-8 year for producing 40 Tejas. This is not good they should speed it up.

I don't understand why IAF is not pressing for faster production in order to make up for shortage of required strength. This is a home grown fighter it will surely have shortcomings but that doesn't make it unwanted. They should not link FOC & IOC with the production. Tejas should have a faster production line and upgradation to new standard every year, rather than waiting for FOC & IOC configuration Fighters.

Larger the number of fighters it will be easy for IAF & R&D for report more improvements, upgradation & modifications. They should build atleast 1 sq of LSP -7 by now to speed up the development.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 01 Apr 2013 08:09

It took more than year to build another LSP - 09 March 2012 - LCA Tejas LSP-7 vs 31 March 2013 - LCA Tejas LSP-8

If they have standardized and fixed the LSP08 production design, HAL will be able to get the aircrafts out fairly quickly.

The one year delay must have been due to new design changes incorporated.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Apr 2013 08:18

After LSP-8, will HAL start producing the production standard aircraft or does that have to wait for FOC?

member_22868 · Post by **member_22868** » 01 Apr 2013 08:24

Gurus, what happens to the prototypes and the LSPs after the development program gets over? Please enlighten!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Apr 2013 08:27

Most likey used as dev platform for Mk.2 testing or used by IAF for more man-machine i/f fine tuning. Waiting for FoC is foolish on production engineering. FoC should list out programs, packages, mission tasks, profiles, envelopes or parts or LRUs that requires further verification and validation. All those already V&Ved, can begin production. This is all concurrent engineering.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 01 Apr 2013 09:00

The aircraft with a build standard akin to the Initial Operation Clearance standard underwent series of rigorous checks by the certifying and inspecting agencies during the last fortnight with a few taxy checks to assess the aircraft performance. The flight clearance by the certifying agencies was accorded today for the aircraft after ensuring that all the aircraft systems were functioning satisfactorily on ground. Till now aircraft normally undergo high speed taxy trials prior to the first flight. However, with the confidence gained by the flight crew and the certifying agencies during the build and ground checks a decision was taken to proceed with first flight without going through a separate high speed taxy trial.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Apr 2013 09:51

Aditya_V wrote:After LSP-8, will HAL start producing the production standard aircraft or does that have to wait for FOC?

Replied in previous post.

srai wrote:
Singha wrote:which a/c will join the IAF in Sulur @ IOC - will it be a mix of the current a/c (with maybe 1-2 retained @ HAL) or they will now produce a few more exactly similar to LSP-8?

...
First lot of 20 LCA Mk. 1 will be this LSP-8 IOC standard. Subsequent lot of 20 LCA will be FOC standard.

FOC standard will be available around 2014/15 timeframe. That gives HAL around 2.5 years @8 aircraft/year to deliver 20 IOC standard LCAs and after which production will switch to the second lot of 20 FOC standard LCA Mk.1. By 2018, all 40 aircrafts would be delivered and IOC standard LCAs would need to be upgraded to the FOC standard. This timing would work well because around 2018 timeframe, LCA Mk.2 is planned to be ready for production.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Apr 2013 10:08

ptayal wrote:Gurus, what happens to the prototypes and the LSPs after the development program gets over? Please enlighten!

Before LCA, India did not have a fighter platform for testing various subsystems. While some of the PVs and LSPs will be stripped and put in museums, others will be used for testing various indigenous technologies, such as Kaveri engine, new avionics, FBW, computers, continuous MMI improvements, radar, sensors, ECMs and advance materials. It is likely a lot of these items will eventually find their way into LCA Mk.1/2, AMCA, MKI, Rafale and FGFA.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Apr 2013 10:16

LCA Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2111 Test Flights Successfully. (29-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-358,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-71,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2114 Test Flights Successfully. (30-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-359,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 01 Apr 2013 11:13

So the only two left to fly are the LSP6 and the NP2.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Apr 2013 11:20

Saw an aircraft roaring past my bedroom window yesterday at about 1305 hrs. Zoomed into the wispy low clouds seemingly in a great hurry and was banking south. The distinctive roar of the LCA and glimpses of the silhouette. Pure delta wing. But in that brief moment as it disappeared I got the impression that it was not yellow in colour, or the grey wispy clouds fooled by old eyes.

Congrats to the full team. Hopefully changes from various aircraft, tested for different parameters, have been incorporated to the satisfaction of the IAF.

To me the LCA is a better bet than the Gnat, which turned into a "Sabre Killer" in '65 and '71

as for the 20 AoA, I wouldn't bother much. personally I would never give out the full capabilities to the public.