Indian Naval Discussion

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Apr 2013 14:55

Looks like Sovremenny class destroyer trying to deal with a little rough sea.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Apr 2013 15:37

I would surely need a fresh pair of brown shorts ... thats a 7000t ddg tossed up and down / side to side by tens of feet.

remember the famous alistair mclean work HMS ulysses, struggling on in such seas on the deadly voyage to murmansk...very evocative video.
should have been made into a war film.

I read this book at the tender age of class4 during a summer vacation in mama's house ...and got hooked on ships and stuff
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Mqf_uYlmhn8/S ... ontana.JPG

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Apr 2013 21:38

Have you read "The Cruel Sea"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cruel_Sea_(novel)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Apr 2013 01:53

There was some news about AKA requesting an IN officer be dismissed fro service for moral conduct.

Will · Post by **Will** » 13 Apr 2013 04:34

Is the RFP for the P-75I still proposed or has a decision been taken to scrap the P-75I and go in for nuclear submarines. The RFP has been "imminent" for half a decade now. Wasn't there a news report sometime back that the thinking now was towards nuclear submarines. With a proposed cost of around 11 B USD for six submarines the thinking to move towards nuclear submarines begins to make more sense. How much does an Arihant class cost. For 11 B USD we could lease a few Yasen class subs from Russia

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Apr 2013 06:03

pentaiah wrote:Folks doesn't belong directly here but just couldn't resist the admiration of the seamanship
I think it's a Russian frigate

It was taken during the Kusntovs, 2004 deployment.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Apr 2013 10:39

For the first time in 12 years, Chinese warship to visit Indian port in 2013

A Chinese warship is likely to visit an Indian port sometime this year, the first such port of call in 12 years.

Senior defence sources said one of the Chinese warships engaged in anti-piracy patrols would call on Kochi. The modalities of this visit are currently being worked out. It points to a thaw between the two countries particularly in the naval dimension.

"There has been a noticeable uptake in our relations with China in recent months," senior defence sources told India Today.

A visit by defence secretary Shashikant Sharma to Beijing this January cleared the decks for resumption of military exercises.

Both countries have been trying to prevent a maritime confrontation at sea, particularly over the South China Sea which China claims as its own.

In 2011, an Indian naval warship off Vietnam was challenged by a broadcast that told it was transiting through Chinese waters. In December 2012, navy chief Admiral D.K. Joshi said India would protect its assets in the South China Sea.

China has currently deployed a Type 052 destroyer Qingdao, a Type 054A frigate Yantai and the supply ship Weishanhu for protecting merchant ships from pirates in the Gulf of Aden.

In June last year, four Indian warships from the Eastern Fleet led by the missile destroyer INS Rana visited Shanghai on a four-day goodwill visit. It was the first visit by Indian warships to China after six years. China followed it up with a series of visits.

Last year, the PLA's training ship Zheng He called in on Kochi. An Indian cadet was embarked on the ship at Singapore as it sailed into Cochin.

The Chinese hospital ship Peace Ark had earlier visited Kochi in 2011 but the current visit is also significant.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Apr 2013 11:15

Antony sacks naval officer for illicit relationship with colleague's wife

Defence minister A.K. Antony has ordered the dismissal of a naval officer guilty of "stealing the affection of brother officer's wife", as the offence of having illicit relationship with a fellow officer's spouse is described under military rules.

Antony's action came in the backdrop of fresh allegations of wife swapping levelled by the spouse of an officer in southern command.

The dismissal order was based on the report of a board of inquiry which found the officer guilty of the offence. The case was reported more than five years ago, said officials.

On Friday, Antony sought report from the navy on the allegations of the marine commando's wife who accused her husband and his superiors of sexual harassment.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 13 Apr 2013 14:11

Above doesn't seem to be a "wife-swapping" situation... is there any more on this out there?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Apr 2013 14:37

JEM here is the actual main report , above is some past case
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1130413/j ... 781066.jsp

as usual, when the allegations are by a woman, all men are presumed guilty in the media until proven innocent, so this is being picked up far and wide incl the usual drain inspectors in the UK

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Apr 2013 17:15

I think that the drain inspectors have a quota to meet WRT, India. So any negative news will do. About 15 years ago one of my dad's friends was invited to a conference in Europe. Where he was asked some such question WRT, India's problems, after being shown news paper reports, pointing out problems in India.

His response was simple, the news paper reports showing negativity about India was a result of Fear in the heart of the Europeans
about Inida and what it represented. They needed to spend some time reflecting on what it was. Before they had a right to sermonize India.

John · Post by **John** » 13 Apr 2013 21:03

Austin wrote:The original Russian Su-33 were only capable of carrying A2A payload and dumb bombs no standoff weapons were tested , I am not sure what the reverse engineered Chinese Su-33 are capable of doing but Indian Mig-29K are fully capable of carrying standoff weapons like Klub and Kh-35 and newer A2A missile like RVV-SD and RVV-MD , over and above its RCS has been reduced and its integrated with modernised Zhuk-M and TopOwl HMD.

To claim a chinese Su-33 is more capable then the Mig-29K is comical , We dont even know how well they managed to reverse enginner the bird and if the weapons/Sensors and ability to operate from sea has been tested , without any meaningful data there is nothing to say.

Don't get me wrong flanker would be great asset if we have Catapults but even if Su-35 is modified for carrier operations its performance would be hamstrung when taking off from a ski jump. You essentially end up with fighter that takes up twice the room of Mig-29 and carries at most 4 tons of payload. LCA mk-2 could be great for STOBAR.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 13 Apr 2013 23:48

Interesting read
http://www.navy.mil/media/allhands/acrobat/ah200601.pdf

Wife swapping is nothing new everybody knew since 1980s it's more on the executive branch than on the engineering branches.

Also watch Blue Max
*ing George Peppard Ursula Undress Great to watch ( err I mean the Movie)

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 13 Apr 2013 23:51

Thanks GD

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Apr 2013 13:34

India to spend $3 billion for 3 more Talwar-class frigates

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 14 Apr 2013 14:04

^Is this going to be built in a private Indian shipyard? I think something like that was mentioned some time ago, a partnership between Yantar/Robonexport some private Indian shipyard.

Don · Post by **Don** » 14 Apr 2013 14:21

Arun Menon wrote:^Is this going to be built in a private Indian shipyard? I think something like that was mentioned some time ago, a partnership between Yantar/Robonexport some private Indian shipyard.

Quote from the article above :

Likely irritants

It is a question of when, not if, Russia would be getting the fresh order for the Talwar-class frigates. The Indians would pitch for inclusion of a financial penalties clause for Russian failure to meet delivery deadlines. The Indians are unhappy that the Russians invariably fail to meet the delivery deadlines and eventually jack up the prices too.

So it sounds like Yantar shipyard in Russia will also make the next 3...

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 14 Apr 2013 18:45

Austin wrote:India to spend $3 billion for 3 more Talwar-class frigates

The new set of frigates will be more technologically advanced and each of the next three Talwar-class frigates will be equipped with BrahMos missiles. The existing Talwar-class boats and the upcoming INS Trikand are not BrahMos-equipped because they were designed before the BrahMos naval variant could be developed.
Therefore the greatest USP of the upcoming order for three more Talwar-class frigates would be that for the first time these frigates will be fitted with BrahMos. “This is the single most important reason why the Russians don’t really have to worry whether they are going to get this order or not,” a source said on condition of anonymity.

Not to throw out the entire report based on this glaring inaccuracy but in case this is true speaks volumes of the Navy' confidence in the PSU shipyards...

vic · Post by **vic** » 14 Apr 2013 19:09

This is Single vendor deal + experitse exists in Indian ship yards, hence this deal should be cancelled.

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 14 Apr 2013 19:24

About the two batches of the Talwar class, I found the the 2nd Batch has Brahmos but two AK 630 CIWS, and the 1rst batch has the KLUB and the Kashtan CIWS. Can anybody comment on why the 2nd batch had the CIWS downgraded?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Apr 2013 19:42

CIWS downgrade is a mystery they seem to just have AK-630M , there were speculation that at a later stage the 2nd batch will have Barak-1 retrofitted as standard when they are back.

The 2nd batch of Talwar already has Brahmos missile and the news of IN going for 3rd batch of Talwar was going on for quite some time with reports stating either it would be built in Russian yard or in Indian in private yard ....probably its cheaper and quicker to build it at Yantar.

The first batch of Talwar ordered in late 90's ( 1998 ) costed $900 million , the 2nd batch ordered around mid 2000 costed $ 1.6 Billion thats around 70-80 % more and the 3rd states at $3 billion almost 70-80 % more.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Apr 2013 19:58

I think the issue was cost - both for kashtan-M and barak1. someone was saying when the two oldest Rajput and Viraat is retired, their barak systems will be reused in other ships.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Apr 2013 20:38

Singha wrote:I think the issue was cost - both for kashtan-M and barak1. someone was saying when the two oldest Rajput and Viraat is retired, their barak systems will be reused in other ships.

From what i understand its a conscious decision by IN to standardise on Barak-1/AK-630 combi for CIWS for all current and future ships even P-15A has been advertised with similar CIWS.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 14 Apr 2013 21:36

John wrote: You essentially end up with fighter that takes up twice the room of Mig-29 ...

FWIW: Apparently, Su-33 took up less space than the original Mig-29k model (after folding up).

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 14 Apr 2013 22:13

The Russian-overhauled Vikramaditya, the new Vikrant and the Vishal will give the Indian Navy a big competitive edge in the Asia-Pacific Region.

The makings of a naval power

IIRC, roughly, the number of aircraft that an aircraft carrier can accomodate is .9 to 1.0aircraft for every tonne of the carrier. The supper carrier Nimitz class at 100 tonnes carry around 90 aircraft. Now thats for the slightly larger f-18 SH and the erstwhile f-14. Now with the mig-29 and the much smaller naval LCA shouldnt the complement of the 60,000 IAC be around 50-55 aircraft while the article claims only around 40? These carriers are built from scratch up and not retrofitted ones like the Vikaramaditya which was essentially a helicopter carrier.

John · Post by **John** » 15 Apr 2013 01:38

Singha wrote:I think the issue was cost - both for kashtan-M and barak1. someone was saying when the two oldest Rajput and Viraat is retired, their barak systems will be reused in other ships.

From what i recall it wasn't cost, Navy wasn't too impressed with Kashtan performance in trial Russia offered the improved Kashtan-M but not sure if we ever took up on that.

Yes Su-33 had smaller folder wingspan than original Mig-29k but current variant of Mig-29k is 5.8 meters which considerably less than Su-33.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Apr 2013 02:04

Vic,

The talwar is considered (or is) a gov-to-gov deal. Similar to jms. Therefore not a single vendor.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Apr 2013 05:47

It was expected that the successful Talwar design would extend to another 3 vessels,built economically and more or less on time in Russia.Our yards aer full and are experiencing huge delays.This morning's papers are full of the further delay in the Scorpene project with the Spanish Navantia technical team leaving India because we did not reconfirm their involvement before March 31st.Typical babudom and AKA dithering.Therefore we now will have another 18 months delay on top of the 2017 date for the first sub to be commissioned,given by AKA to parliament! Simply fabulous.

While we dither on Russian offers,the Chinese have swooped in to order 4 Amurs plus,and this is the deadly deal,no less than 36 TU-22M3 backfires,which many of us on BR have been asking for for a few years now.It seems that the PLAN reads BR very seriously.They've ordered Beriev-200 amphibians,Amurs and now Backfires-all offered to India first.Dither on AKA.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 15 Apr 2013 05:53

no less than 36 TU-22M3 backfires,which many of us on BR have been asking for for a few years now.It seems that the PLAN reads BR very seriously.They've ordered Beriev-200 amphibians,Amurs and now Backfires-all offered to India first.Dither on AKA.

aha we need to get 200 Blackjacks (psst Chinese analysts heres your hint)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Apr 2013 06:25

Sorry,I am in error about the first sighting of the Scorpene,around 1017.

Scorpene submarine project to miss target again as Spanish consultants quit
Josy Joseph, TNN | Apr 15, 2013,

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 551830.cms

NEW DELHI: The Scorpene submarine project underway in Mumbai has suffered fresh troubles, with a new assessment showing another 18 months of delay even as its Spanish consultants have left the venture.

According to sources, Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) has informed the Navy that the project would be delayed by another 18 months from the 2015 deadline announced by defence minister AK Antony in Parliament last year.

Going by the latest MDL projections, the first Scorpene submarine would be ready for induction only by 2016-end. When the contract was signed, the first submarine was to be ready in 2012. However, the delay could be worse, according to other developments over the last few days.

Consultants from Navantia, the Spanish shipbuilding company, left the project in the last few days. The technical assistance pact for Navantia and DCNS, the French partner in the consortium, expired on March 31, sources said. With MDL failing to get the defence ministry's approval in time, about 10 Spanish consultants working on the submarine project left India. This could further add to the delay, sources said.

Adding to the troubles over the massive submarine project, with a budget of over Rs 23,000 crore, is the fact that the DCNS leadership is expected to meet with MDL top brass this week in Mumbai and present their own demand for additional technical assistance fee.

The developments come at a time when India's submarine fleet is expected to dwindle to just seven or so in two years time. Presently, India operates 10 ageing Russian Kilo class and four German HDW submarines. Indian Navy also has a Russian nuclear submarine INS Chakra on lease.

The Scorpene project, among the biggest defence deals signed by India till now, was concluded in October 2005. Over the years, the project has run into several delays. Originally, the first submarine was to be delivered in 2012. However, because of the complications and two-year delay in concluding contracts related to material to be procured by MDL, the project got delayed by three years.

Delivery by end-2016

Hulls for all six submarines, made of steel supplied by French division of ArcelorMittal, are ready in Mumbai, and the outfitting of equipment and systems is underway. With the Spanish consultants quitting, work on the part of the hull that they were responsible for could be delayed.

According to the new estimates, the first submarine will be ready for commissioning by end of 2016. And then, a new submarine could be ready for induction every 9-12 months.

According to the present projections, the last two submarines would have air independent propulsion systems (AIP) that would help the submarine stay underway water for one to three extra weeks. Without AIP, a Scorpene submarine can stay underwater continuously for five to six days. DRDO is presently developing an indigenous AIP, with assistance from DCNS. Initial assessments about the indigenous AIP system is said to be very good though with only about two weeks of endurance.
Share your views

Here is a report about the new Chinese pres. calling for a stronger navy and visiting new ships and subs.
http://english.eastday.com/e/130412/u1a7319356.html

President Xi calls for strengthened navy
2013-04-12 11:16

SANYA, April 11 -- Chinese President Xi Jinpinghas urged the Navy to strengthen itself and integrate individual soldiers' aspirations into national hopes of reinforcing the military.

Xi, general secretary of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Central Committee and chairman of the Central Military Commission, visited the People's Liberation ArmyNavy troops stationed in Sanya in south China's island province of Hainan after attending the Boao Forum for Asia Annual Conference 2013.

Wearing a short-sleeved regular military uniform, Xi inspected a guard of honor of sailors and 11 new-type naval warships of five categories representing the South China SeaFleet.

The president also viewed the naval vessels of Yueyang, Hengshui and Yulin, and saluted soldiers to the song of the parade.

On board the Jinggangshan vessel and another new-type submarine, Xi carefully examined weaponry features, inquired about soldiers' training and daily life, accepted the vessel's cap and emblem presented by soldiers as a gift, and signed his name in Jinggangshan's log.

Jinggangshan is the first Chinese naval vessel to be manned, in part, by female personnel. Five of the 20 female soldiers currently working on board are ethnic Uygur from far west China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region.

Xi praised the ethnic women soldiers, saying their integration is conducive to promoting women's status and ethnic unity in China. He also encouraged sailors working in the submarine to better train themselves.

The president also examined the naval port's infrastructures and had lunch with sailors in the dining hall.

"The spirit of thrift and perseverance should be better promoted and soldiers should be trained to endure hardships, although military conditions have greatly improved," he told sailors.

Particularly as naval troops are scattered so far and wide in their posts, they should strengthen the building of CPC grassroots organizations and the training of Party cadres, Xi also urged.
Source:Xinhua Net

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Apr 2013 06:47

I wonder who sat on the file while the agreement expired?

We continue to shoot ourselves in the foot over red tape.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 15 Apr 2013 07:28

^^^ In a typical organization with performance based evaluation and recognition, the folks involved would have been dismissed by now. In the govt the "honest" tag is enough to continue to get mileage. The prime minister is eventually who is accountable, question is defence is such a low priority concern for politicians over other vote bank politics items like reservations/quotas etc etc that no one asks these question with a good amount of force in the parliament.

For the naval folks involved with the scorepene project overseeing progress and coordination, will there be official action on them? Reprimand/court martial?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Apr 2013 08:35

Why the hike in the price of hte Talwar class frigates? the first batch of 3 ordered in 1997 cost the IN $1 billion, the second batch of 3 ordered in 2006 cost $1.6 billion and now the price has jumped 2 fold to $3 billion for 3? A frigate that costs $1 billion each is very steep !

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 15 Apr 2013 08:51

A frigate that costs $1 billion had better be equipped with an AEGIS like system and have the stealth capabilities of a LaFayete class or the latest brit, french or massa boats.

Me thinks that there is ghoos being paid on both sides for election campaigns in desh and roos.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Apr 2013 09:37

Kartik wrote:Why the hike in the price of hte Talwar class frigates? the first batch of 3 ordered in 1997 cost the IN $1 billion, the second batch of 3 ordered in 2006 cost $1.6 billion and now the price has jumped 2 fold to $3 billion for 3? A frigate that costs $1 billion each is very steep !

Be vary of the cost since its a report that just states it and not an official price.

But if you look at the cost the first three ordered in 1998 was $900 million , another 3 ordered in 2006 was $ 1.6 billion roughly 70 to 80 % rise compared to first and if they order and the cost stated is say for argument sake the same i.e $3billion then its almost 70-80 % over the second deal.

More like rising cost of raw material , military inflation cost ,cost of weapons/electronics etc .....even the cost of P-15A built at our yards have gone up exponentially due to delays. Time & Cost Spikes In Indian Warship Efforts, Parliament Told

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Apr 2013 10:48

On Scorpene they should have built 2 Subs at DCN and the rest 4 at MDL and more to follow . looking at the complexity of building an entire sub production line at MDL that was lost since 1992 when T209 was last made and subsequently everything lost.

Looking at MDL record of production effeciency on the projects so far , it should have stuck alarm bells at MOD and IN since Submarine fleet is below even today of what is minimum required.

Perhaps MDL top bosses would have said to MOD , Hey Mogambo and MOD would have responded Mogambo Kush Hua and handed over scorpene to MDL.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 15 Apr 2013 10:57

With regards to the Scorpene the best is yet to come once the good retd. commodore under investigation by the CVC starts to spill the beans when indicted.

But hey whenever the submarine comes, it will have a Made in India tag attached to it.

Will · Post by **Will** » 15 Apr 2013 12:01

pandyan wrote:I guess $1B number makes Carrier Gorshkov numbers more palatable. May be that is the strategy.

Regarding Scorpene...this seems like a roadblock created by MoD. However, 10 consultants leaving the country creates a 18 month delay????? So, MDL has to get approval for extending the contract from MOD for a strategic project?

Either privatization brigade or build abroad brigade is striking again.

Why blame privatization for MOD's and MDLs inefficiencies

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Apr 2013 12:18

with even a corvette costing north of $500 mil these days, very few nations will be able to afford a ocean going navy.

we need something like the Kidd or Spruance class hulls of the USN which were mass produced in bulk and didnt cost the earth. something like the P28 modded to a more general role. but the cost of $600 mil per P28 is also scary.

maybe the new Saryu class long range OPV is best produced in bulk and armanents added.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 15 Apr 2013 13:09

IIT Kharagpur has Naval Architecture courses taught to B tech and also to IN cadets.
Can't they deign and make some boats?