Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

disha · Post by **disha** » 16 Apr 2013 11:44

Sanku wrote:
Singha wrote: he is too much a user of the system to ever think of the radical changes needed, too much a roman senator grown fat on the fruit of the land.
.
Radical changes are not going to happen, even Modi in Gujarat, has made his current set of changes through small steps incrementally over 3 terms.

So expecting radical changes, is just not going to happen, and should not either, radical changes are only for radicals. We are talking about main stream politicians implementing long term sustainable changes.

Why I want Modi to be a PM?

1. Gives a boner to likes of US or S. TN unelected reps (all the visa denial thingy)
2. Gets rid of the entitlement raj like free housing for journos.

^ He has waay succeeded ... Rest is gravy.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 16 Apr 2013 11:47

Sanku wrote:Wide across the table acceptability -- politics is all about convincing people.
Experience of running the government at central level at highest positions
A long history of proven party building
A strong Hindutva votary (original one -- more Hindutva oriented than even NaMo perhaps)
Economically liberal politician

In India whether you like it or not, age and experience brings acceptability and deference, there is a reason why Indian PMs have been old. And a 70+ PVNR is a better choice than a 40 year young RG etc.

The ONLY thing I will grant is that he seems to be a good consensus candidate...

Other than that, frankly - there is NOTHING that stands out about Advani. He's nowhere near as good in oratory or ability to connect with the masses (or intellectuals) as Modi (or even Sushma) - there is no overarching vision for India which Modi undeniably has, Advani has no track record of performance to fall back on unlike Modi.

So really - there is NOTHING in Advani to enthuse anybody.

Even in terms of Hindutva - I agree Advani is more associated with RJB. Whether this exclusive focus on RJB to the exclusion of other religious issues can be considered 'hard' Hindutva or soft Hindutva is very much open to debate. I personally consider the RJB types to be 'soft' Hindutva - though they clearly regard themselves to be the 'hard' types in their own minds.

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 16 Apr 2013 11:50

Pranav wrote:
VikramS wrote: Think about it, Modi is against the Jehadists, the EJs, the communists, and D4-Loh Purush.
And up against many of the tall leaders of the RSS too!

All he has on his side are the ordinary volunteers and the general public.

Let us see whether he has the stomach for the Mahabharat fight.

Reminds me of Abhimanyu and ChakraVyuha.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 16 Apr 2013 11:53

Reminds me of Abhimanyu and ChakraVyuha.

No more like Bheemasena fighting in the midst of kaurava brothers and slaying them all

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Apr 2013 11:57

RJB was an opportunistic and emotive issue. Granted it let the BJP grow out of nothing, it still represents more of a one-off thing rather than a slow and systematic approach to implementing the tenets of Hindutva. Advani has played the game in Delhi too long and hence has been infected by the politics there and has too many skeletons in his own cupboard. He will never radically alter our political system or governance. He will never bring down and eliminate the dynasty (which is of paramount importance). Granted he will be magnitudes better than congis, that still leaves no space for radical changes in our system that is critically and immediately needed. Though Mr. Modi might not do anything overtly revolutionary immediately after his ascension to power, he can make systematic and systemic changes like he has made in Gujarat and he can punish those who have wronged India, which is why he is so feared. With Advani we will have a "better" govt than congis (like that requires a big effort), but with Mr. Modi we will get the govt that we deserve, desire and desperately need.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 12:01

Arjun wrote:
Other than that, frankly - there is NOTHING that stands out about Advani. He's nowhere near as good in oratory or ability to connect with the masses (or intellectuals) as Modi (or even Sushma) - there is no overarching vision for India which Modi undeniably has, Advani has no track record of performance to fall back on unlike Modi.
.

Oh please.

Advani and ABV built BJP without having such abilities?

Sure they are old, and age dulls the sharpness of those skills, but to say they are not?

Advani does not have to do that anymore since he is in emertius position and others do it on the ground, however it would be shortsighted to think his abilities are lost.

His term has HM also saw pacification of Kashmir BTW, and a overall improvement in the internal security, busting of terror module s, POTA etc.

The fact that things went downhill after NDA is not accidental. Advani as HM had a firm hand.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 16 Apr 2013 12:21

Sanku wrote:Oh please. Advani and ABV built BJP without having such abilities?

Sure they are old, and age dulls the sharpness of those skills, but to say they are not?

Advani does not have to do that anymore since he is in emertius position and others do it on the ground, however it would be shortsighted to think his abilities are lost.

His term has HM also saw pacification of Kashmir BTW, and a overall improvement in the internal security, busting of terror module s, POTA etc.

The fact that things went downhill after NDA is not accidental. Advani as HM had a firm hand.

And what about Kandahar ?

Anyway, seems like you represent the Advani faction on this thread - but seriously if we had a poll on BR regarding PM candidate you would probably be among the very few for Advani. And this is pretty much the same scenario that would play out across BJP party cadres and across the BJP voter-base in India.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Apr 2013 12:38

I have created a poll thread in this forum for PM candidate. let us see who has the biggest following in brf atleast.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 16 Apr 2013 13:01

sensible suggestion from swapanda... from twitter...

Swapan Dasgupta ‏@swapan55 15h
Enough of this confusion. Let BJP call a NationalCouncil meet & take a vote on who they want as their face for 2014.

Sudhir k Singh ‏@sudhirksingh 14h
@swapan55 Trouble is the Advani campers will never risk a national council meet. They'd rather take the sly backdoor route to outwit Modi.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Apr 2013 13:09

Sanku wrote:Radical changes are not going to happen, even Modi in Gujarat, has made his current set of changes through small steps incrementally over 3 terms.

So expecting radical changes, is just not going to happen, and should not either, radical changes are only for radicals. We are talking about main stream politicians implementing long term sustainable changes.

Modi talked at the India Today Enclave 2013 about institutionalizing ideas and not letting these remain dependent on one person.

What Modi can do is make many many small snowballs.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 13:18

Arjun wrote: And what about Kandahar ?

That seems like the congress faction type question to me.

Kandhar was unfortunate, but hardly a HM issue, in fact, i think BJP did excellently during Kandhar, if not the best theoretical outcome, next to best. Possibly the best possible outcome.

but seriously if we had a poll on BR regarding PM candidate you would probably be among the very few for Advani.

and

And this is pretty much the same scenario that would play out across BJP party cadres and across the BJP voter-base in India.

I would say that a staying grounded is useful, BRF is hardly the barometer for polls, according to BRF, BJP would have won in in 2009. BTW I would also "vote" for Modi over Advani, in the same way I would "vote" for India winning world cup match. "Do you want India to win world cup?" However, net net, I think that Advani is a better PM candidate all things considered.

BRF a group also thought that 123 was a good thing, and Man mohan was pitching for Indian nuclear sector as well.

However to give BRF credit, that was a close poll.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Apr 2013 13:24

Arjun wrote: And what about Kandahar ?

What was the position of KhanGrace during Khandhar crisis. They were all in favour of release and sided with screaming relatives. Why didn't they take principled stand then?? I dont approve what happened then but obviously there was no choice left. What did Khangrace do for hundreds of issues including D and 26/11 DH etc. Forget about million scams in their time since independence.

member_23686 · Post by **member_23686** » 16 Apr 2013 13:40

ok. time to say a few things-

1. there are millions of voters who have their voter id only for id proof and they have never voted. they always complain about every politician being same, so they never go out and vote.

2, for the first time they have a true leader who deserve their vote and they seem to be willing to go and vote for him.

3. none of them identifies with advani. project anything short of modi as pm and you lose this vote.

4. modi is also a symbol of development, governance and hindutva for poor. so this is very significant advantage.

5. modi cause polarisation because he is percieved as a fighter.

6. if you project advani then no such polarisation occur. those days when he was the fighter are long gone.

7. put advani in uttar pradesh and you make 2009 scenario with con taking 20+ seats and bjp going 9. he is "that" uninspiring.

8. i hope advani supporters can make up for a loss in up. by winning seats in coalition land

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 13:45

dharmaraj wrote: 2, for the first time they have a true leader who deserve their vote and they seem to be willing to go and vote for him.

Hmm, where does that come from? I see no proof of that. Please post some numbers, which constituencies, what %, what changes etc.

All I see is a bunch of random people on net dreaming up. Half of them not even in a voting area. Half of those voting will not even have a strong BJP candidate (areas like TN, Kerala etc)

Going by this wave, Advani would have been PM twice over.

skaranam · Post by **skaranam** » 16 Apr 2013 13:47

a bit off topic...

Is there a place we can track local press coverage on NaMo / Gujarat? Couple of days back, i saw Zee24 channel (local channel in AP) where the coverage was on Gujarat with focus on NaMo and current drought conditions..

The main takeaway....is

a) Gujarat and NaMo are one and same..
b) Gujarat is reeling under a major drought....and NaMo is focusing on National stage.
c) NaMo has failed to provide basic drinking water facilities...to his people...

How much of this kind of coverage has influence on General Elections?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 13:48

skaranam wrote:
How much of this kind of coverage has influence on General Elections?

I would say very little.

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 16 Apr 2013 13:51

About Dr. Gautam Sen whose article was discussed here.
Is it the same guy whose articles appear at Voice of India's website as well?
http://www.voi.org/index.php?option=com ... d=1&ed=237

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 16 Apr 2013 13:51

The Lotus gladiators: Advani, Modi camps go to war as battle cry for PM crown grows fiercer

Uh-oh. Among the people in the NM camp, Rajnath and Jaitley are lukewarmish only and opportunistic-ish to boot. Whereas the LKA camp has useless diehards like Anant Kr who owes his everything to LKA. So expect tight fisted fight from the LKA camp. Also, has Varun openly declared for LKA? Why is he in that column? The sorry likes of Uma and Varun will then combine and conspire to wreck UP for bhajpa should the NM camp prevail is my concern....

Part of the reason the JD(U) could afford to openly take on Modi at its national executive in Delhi, was the fact that the Gujarat CM remains a divisive figure even within the BJP. Incensed Modi supporters even believe that Kumar's diatribe could have had the tacit blessings of top BJP leaders who wanted to scuttle his chances.

The ' Advani versus Modi' debate is a tussle between two competing visions of what the BJP's path towards power should be.

The formula being put forward by Advani and his supporters like Sushma Swaraj is ' NDA plus'. As laid down by Advani during the BJP conclaves in Delhi in March this year and in Surajkund last year, ' NDA plus' involves the effort to transform the NDA into a "larger and more robust alliance"by "re-projecting the party's commitment to secularism". Advani has also hailed the Goa experiment in which the party won the support of minorities and suggested that the party must prepare separate charters for minorities and Dalits.

Politics has come a full circle for Advani. On the eve of the 1996 elections, Advani was the most popular leader in the BJP by virtue of being the architect of the Ram Janmabhoomi movement. Yet, he was forced to step aside in favour of the more acceptable Atal Bihari Vajpayee.

A lot depends on the stand BJP president Rajnath Singh takes in the months to come. Even though he has been cosying up to Modi, Singh remains non-committal on his PM candidature. Many in the BJP believe that Singh wouldn't mind if the phase of uncertainty and confusion continues, as it would keep open the possibility of his own emergence as a consensus candidate on the eve of the elections or after them.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Apr 2013 13:56

Sanku wrote:
dharmaraj wrote: 2, for the first time they have a true leader who deserve their vote and they seem to be willing to go and vote for him.
Hmm, where does that come from? I see no proof of that. Please post some numbers, which constituencies, what %, what changes etc.

All I see is a bunch of random people on net dreaming up. Half of them not even in a voting area. Half of those voting will not even have a strong BJP candidate (areas like TN, Kerala etc)

Going by this wave, Advani would have been PM twice over.

While I do believe there is a wave in favor of Mr. Modi (just ask your friends and neighbor and you maid, if you have one), though some statistics would be nice. But, frankly, I do not believe in any sample surveys for elections in our country, its just all garbage.

PS: This Avani Vs Modi thing is going to end somewhat like the Keshubhai Vs Modi thing. All the above arguments were also made in that contest and we all know how that ended up. Quite frankly, I think that many people underestimate Mr. Modi and his cunning. He is not some naive saint who is liable to be chewed up and spit out. He plays to win and win he has whenever he has played.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 14:00

^^^ O boy, what comedy, half of the mythical D4 is in Modi "camp", and what about many many other strong BJP leaders? What about Utkhand leaders?, Dhumal? Chtgarh? Sushil Modi? Kkta leaders? Goa? Punjab? Jammu?

This not counting RSS.

Hee hee hee.

Trust MSM to produce first class fiction when they cant get their hands on any real meat.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 14:01

Arun Menon wrote: While I do believe there is a wave in favor of Mr. Modi (just ask your friends and neighbor and you maid, if you have one), some statistics would be nice. But, frankly, I do not believe in any sample surveys for elections in our country, its just all garbage.

My maid and driver do not even know who Modi is, for that matter they dont even know who Advani is. They are in their 20s.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Apr 2013 14:03

^Wow, I guess this is the hazard of living in Kerala and imagining the rest of India.

Also, that is indeed comedy of the highest type. It is so funny when people take themselves seriously and write some stupid article. That pic itself is a hoot

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 16 Apr 2013 14:07

My maid and driver do not even know who Modi is, for that matter they dont even know who Advani is. They are in their 20s.

OK. But do they know who 'mahatma' Gandhi was? Even if they don't how can they not know Raholy gandhi?

Anyway, back to scheduled programming...

BJP doesn't want alliance to end, but the ball is in JDU's court, asserts Rajnath Singh

Speaking to Mail Today, a calm but firm BJP president Rajnath Singh made it clear that his party had absolutely no intention of making any concessions to the JD(U) and that it was up to the latter to restore normalcy in their mutual relations. This was the first time the BJP president was speaking to any newsperson after Kumar scaled up his confrontation with the BJP by vetoing his Gujarat counterpart's prime ministerial ambitions.

"We don't want the alliance to end, but the ball is in their court," said Singh. The BJP president, however, did admit that there was a trust deficit between the two alliance partners. "Whatever has happened shouldn't have happened,"Singh said, indirectly referring to the speech made by Kumar at the JD(U) national plenary in Delhi on Sunday in which he criticised Modi on several fronts.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 14:13

Hari Seldon wrote:
My maid and driver do not even know who Modi is, for that matter they dont even know who Advani is. They are in their 20s.
OK. But do they know who 'mahatma' Gandhi was? Even if they don't how can they not know Raholy gandhi?

They only know local leaders and parties. They dont know national level politicians.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Apr 2013 14:15

^That is just sad. Any attempts made by you at educating them?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 14:26

Arun Menon wrote:^That is just sad. Any attempts made by you at educating them?

A little, but their reasons are strong as well. They believe in "trust what you can see first hand", I have been educated by them in turn a lot. Their lives are run more by entities having a direct stake in their daily lives. Hard to argue against that. They have little time or inclination for philosophical political debates.

I have lived in the south as well, and this also lets me see the influence of church first hand.

James B · Post by **James B** » 16 Apr 2013 14:26

I don't know why people are discounting 'RSS' in BJP PM candidate's selection. It is the final authority, what D4 and other BJP leaders think is inconsequential. RSS has already dropped many hints on Modi being the PM candidate in 2014 elections.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Apr 2013 14:28

In Strat Forum, there is a poll too on PM choice. Have your say there as well, if you wish it to be known publicly.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 14:30

James B wrote:I don't know why people are discounting 'RSS' in BJP PM candidate's selection. It is the final authority, what D4 and other BJP leaders think is inconsequential. RSS has already dropped many hints on Modi being the PM candidate in 2014 elections.

RSS is deliberately playing its cards close to its chest, they will take a measured call at later point.

At this point having Modi take a bigger role at national scene is good enough.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Apr 2013 14:32

James B wrote:I don't know why people are discounting 'RSS' in BJP PM candidate's selection. It is the final authority, what D4 and other BJP leaders think is inconsequential. RSS has already dropped many hints on Modi being the PM candidate in 2014 elections.

Indeed. I do not think they are in favor of Advani ever since that Jinnah episode. Now that they have a good alternative and Mr. Modi has made peace with them with the Guj elections, I can't see them hesitating to name him. All this RSS leaders hate Modi is old news, water under the bridge for the most part.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 16 Apr 2013 14:33

Sanku wrote:Hmm, where does that come from? I see no proof of that. Please post some numbers, which constituencies, what %, what changes etc.

Can you post some examples of the kind of 'proof' you expect to see for a wave? Any parameters that were satisfied in previous results that qualified as 'waves' (one year prior to polls) that are not satisfied now?

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 16 Apr 2013 14:38

i think some people here are just too chicken.

con party is afraid of a presidential style election. The media and its reach is different this time. If camps are evenly split into two sides, baba and NM..people will not be confused by local politics, caste and other considerations into whom to vote for.

by not naming NM and going for vague nonsense or putting advani in front, you are playing the game according to congress rules and you.will.lose.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 14:49

Arjun wrote:
Sanku wrote:Hmm, where does that come from? I see no proof of that. Please post some numbers, which constituencies, what %, what changes etc.
Can you post some examples of the kind of 'proof' you expect to see for a wave? Any parameters that were satisfied in previous results that qualified as 'waves' (one year prior to polls) that are not satisfied now?

I have already listed the kind of proof that I am looking for and therefore I am not clear about the question.

As per wave, a strong support for BJP existed on forum polls before 2009 and on polls in online media channels. In 2004 both media, and online channels, rudimentary as they were, were registering a vote for India Shining.

I am looking for a survey number, from a house/entity which has past success in some surveys accurately capturing the situation. All political parties carry out such survey's internally as well, at regular intervals.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 16 Apr 2013 14:53

If you find time, watch this Kitab-e-chehra too for NaMo related hate news (and post your views, if possible)

Akbaruddin Owaisi - Youth Icon

Hyderabad Breaking News - miya Bhai

‎All India Majlis-E- Ittehadul Muslimeen , کل ہند مجلس اتحاد المسلمين‎
Political Party

Voice of Indian Muslims

4tv Entertainment & News Channel

Motivating Muslims - Wake up Ya Muslimeen

AIMIM Attack On Anti Islamic Pages

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 16 Apr 2013 14:53

Sanku wrote:I have already listed the kind of proof that I am looking for and therefore I am not clear about the question.

As per wave, a strong support for BJP existed on forum polls before 2009 and on polls in online media channels. In 2004 both media, and online channels, rudimentary as they were, were registering a vote for India Shining.

I am looking for a survey number, from a house/entity which has past success in some surveys accurately capturing the situation. All political parties carry out such survey's internally as well, at regular intervals.

Oh, Ok so you are looking for surveys. Somehow I got the impression you did not believe in surveys and you were looking for some other kind of proof.

There have been a large number of surveys over the last 2 years that have been extensively reported in the media. Nielsen, as one example, is a reputed international firm that is known for impartial and well-researched surveys. My question to you is - can you point to even a single survey that has NOT come up with Modi as the top choice among those surveyed ?

vic · Post by **vic** » 16 Apr 2013 15:04

I think Advani wanted to pretend being an Iron Man without doing anything. Can somebody list 10 great things done by Advani as a Home Minister??

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 16 Apr 2013 15:11

As per wave, a strong support for BJP existed on forum polls before 2009 and on polls in online media channels. In 2004 both media, and online channels, rudimentary as they were, were registering a vote for India Shining.

The wave can't do much if EVMs are being fixed. I still believe that the Congress wave in 2004 arose in Navin Chawla's office.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 16 Apr 2013 15:14

If Advani is named as PM. Modi will not campaign. Period. Thats what I hear. If no one is named, then Modi would like to have a say in ticket distribution. BJP top brass and many committees in state are openly trying to get in touch with Modi's campaign managers to work out ticket distribution. This also includes the D4. D4 are in a fix though because of confused signals from RSS and Advani Ji. They don't want to be caught on wrong foot. Some say, if Modi is declared PM candidate then the next fight will be "Kaun Banega Home Minister?" there are more than 2 candidates who have eye on the position.

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 16 Apr 2013 15:16

They only know local leaders and parties. They dont know national level politicians.

Lack of interest or awareness about what is happening in other parts of India is an old problem of Hindus. They have become too regional in outlook. I don't know when will they get a national awareness -- this is a failure of our education system. These type of ignorant Hindus not clued into the wider national discourse are the God's gift to Congress. In contrast, even a Muslim butcher or taxi driver can give you a long lecture on US atrocities in Iraq or what Israel is up to or why Modi is a monster.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 16 Apr 2013 15:43

Sanku ji, If there is actually a real election inside BJP using cadre of BJP, RSS and VHP, Modi gets a landslide even after sabotage attempts. Modi is only winner in Twitter is a stretch. The above post by Sri is mostly correct. Shivraj Chouhan is not anti-Modi. Outside Delhi, UP and Bihar leaders (again only some leaders not the party) there is nothing for Advani or his appointees. They wield some power only because of long association with the party and they are fighting their last bit to retain that. Even if they are thrown out wholesale, they can't even damage the party as much a Kalyan Singh or a Yeddi can do.