Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

[member_25399]

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india ... eststories

We can ask him to go to the Chinese tents instead... to check if they are keeping well, need any ration. After all we have mutual interest.

[venku_Raj]

Indian Army contemplating military options against Chinese troops

With China not budging from its stand, Indian Army has briefed the Government about various military options that can be exercised to deal with the situation arising out of the intrusion in Ladakh.

The Army has given its inputs on the incursion by Chinese troops to the National Security Advisor-headed China Study Group which includes the Secretaries of the Ministries of Defence, Home and External Affairs, government sources said.

Meanwhile, ignoring India’s demand to revert to a status-quo in Depsang Valley, China on Wednesday firmly stuck to its stand that its troops have not violated the Line of Actual
Control (LAC) ‘by a step’ in the Ladakh region.

“I want to reiterate here that the Chinese border troops have been acting in strict compliance with the bilateral agreements and conducting normal patrol on the Chinese side of the LAC. They have never crossed the line by a step”, Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying told a media briefing.

“The two sides should abide by their consensus which is in the interest of both. The two sides should work together to properly resolve border issues with in the framework of existing mechanisms and create favourable conditions for the bilateral relations”, she said.

This is the first time, after the controversy broke, that China has acknowledged that the issue is being discussed between the two countries.

Meanwhile, Indian Army had rushed its troops from the 5 Ladakh Scouts battalion to the DBO area and they are camping there. The force is also considering the option of dispatching additional troops if the need arises.

On April 15, a platoon-strength contingent of China’s People’s Liberation Army (PLA) had come 10 km inside the Indian territory in Burthe in the DBO sector on the night of April 15 and established a tented post there.

LINK

[member_25399]

^^
What are the possible military solutions in this scenario, considering both sides do not want this to translate into a full scale conflict ?

[nits]

Aren't we (GOI) ignoring this the same way; we ignored Kargil in its initial days...

[Aditya_V]

^^
What are the possible military solutions in this scenario, considering both sides do not want this to translate into a full scale conflict ?

How are you so sure about the Chinese? They have been having a miltary build up for years.

It seems only 1 side us is looking for peace.

[nits]

This whole Peace Drama has gone too far... for god's sake - some one is in your home and settled there and what you do is talk to him and pray he will get out; as if he just strayed out to your home unknowingly. We are just inviting more intruders by this peace thing... at least let Generals talk in some Very Strong tone in parallel...

We need to pass a message that we will not take it lying down; i am not saying perform a Missile Attack on it but at least talk about it to show we can do it if required...

Learn from other countries - 2012 saw record 306 Japan fighter scrambles against Chinese aircraft

[member_20453]

I think a barrage of chilli grenades should get the Chini troops running back.

Lets give them a taste of indian spice .

[ASPuar]

Ive been saying for a long tme that we are heading for a repeat of 62.

Headless government, demoralised army.

The 6th pay commission was calculated to destroy the morale of the armed forces, and it did just that.

Sundry amateurs are playing general, with the foreign service headed china study group, and national security advisors without any national security experience.

We are headed for disaster.

[shyamd]

Correction - actually it was the politicians who refused to believe the intelligence. A week before the MI6 station located in Kuwait city sent warning to the top politicians in London to no avail.

Correction to what?

...And what would that do? In Gulf War I The Iraqi Army had massed 100,000 men for a fortnight before the actual invasion of Kuwait in the full view of spy satellites and other ISR assets but most folks, especially the Kuwaitis didn't think Saddam would attack.

Wrt the current crisis with China you either need to have very good HUMINT about Chinese intentions like Richard Sorge gave the Russians about Japan's intent to enter WWII - which was ironically ignored, or the national security leadership moves proactively to seize the initiative - like we did in 1987 in Sumdorong Chu and earlier in Siachen.

We have neither currently. And Drones and satellites won't help.

Ummm...so you are agreeing with my thesis? Since despite having airpower around, it was a political decision not to use it.

See highlighted.

[shyamd]

Or the politicians deliberately egged on Saddam to attack Kuwait and later used that excuse to punish him for it.

Would be typically Brit-Saudi strategy of double dealing and backstabbing.

Evidence?

[shyamd]

Or the politicians deliberately egged on Saddam to attack Kuwait and later used that excuse to punish him for it.

Would be typically Brit-Saudi strategy of double dealing and backstabbing.

Evidence?

[chetak]

Ive been saying for a long tme that we are heading for a repeat of 62.

Headless government, demoralised army.

The 6th pay commission was calculated to destroy the morale of the armed forces, and it did just that.

Sundry amateurs are playing general, with the foreign service headed china study group, and national security advisors without any national security experience.

We are headed for disaster.

The foremost thought in the MEA (kurshit) will be the fallout on the coming elections as well as modi waiting to pounce. Walking on egg shells is no way to prosecute tough diplomacy. salam alaikum and paan ain't going to cut it.

[VinodTK]

From Times Of India: Major reshuffle likely in Army

NEW DELHI: A major reshuffle is expected in the top Army brass with several new appointments being made in key formations, including the Udhampur-based Northern Command of the force.

Present western Army commander Lt Gen Sanjiv Chachra has been recommended to be shifted to head the Northern Command to succeed Lt Gen KT Parnaik, who is retiring on June 30, officials said.

Lt Gen Chachra is expected to be replaced by Lt Gen Philip Campose, who is currently heading the perspective planning (PP) directorate at the Army headquarters here.

Present Director General (IT) Lt Gen Sanjeev Madhok is expected to be elevated as the chief of Army's Shimla-based Training Command, the officials said.

Central Army commander Lt Gen Anil Chait is expected to be shifted to head the tri-services integrated defence services headquarters in Delhi while he is expected to be succeeded by Lt Gen Rajan Bakshi, they said.

Bakshi is presently heading the Leh-based 14 Corps. The defence ministry has given its approval to the new appointments and has forwarded the proposal for final clearance by the appointments committee of the Cabinet.

[RoyG]

I think they are reshuffling the Army brass to prevent any sort of rogue retaliatory action in case the government lets the Chinese stay put.

[ramana]

ShyamD, April Gilliespe the US envoy to Iraq is widely stated to have told Saddam that US hs no interests in Kuwait.

[VinodTK]

From Hindustan Times: Army flies UAVs over Ladakh; visits on track

Military sources said India is flying UAVs over Ladakh where it claims China has crossed the Line of Actual Control (LAC) even as external affairs minister confirmed his visit to the country on May 9.
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[VinodTK]

Rohtang Pass road cleared of snow

Shimla: Hard pressed to open an alternate route to Ladhak as tensions mount on the western India – China, army road engineers have cleared the over 13,000 feet altitude Rohtang Pass of snow, enabling unlocking of Lahaul valley that was snowbound for six months.

Border Roads Organisation, the agency assigned with the task of clearing the high passes of snow, today announced opening of the road after having been snowbound for nearly six months.

Col JS Sahani, planning officer BRO said heavy machinery including bull-dozers and snow cutters were deployed from both sides of the pass and the breakthrough was achieved on yesterday night.

“The road has been thrown open to regulated traffic, he said.
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[shyamd]

ShyamD, April Gilliespe the US envoy to Iraq is widely stated to have told Saddam that US hs no interests in Kuwait.

Boss I know. But April isn't British

[Sanku]

Or the politicians deliberately egged on Saddam to attack Kuwait and later used that excuse to punish him for it.

Would be typically Brit-Saudi strategy of double dealing and backstabbing.

Evidence?

Evidence for what shyamd ji; regular and inveterate double dealing by British and Saudi Regimes? Or for the specific instance in case of Saddam Hussein?

Anyway response here

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1447663

[member_25399]

From Hindustan Times: Army flies UAVs over Ladakh; visits on track

Military sources said India is flying UAVs over Ladakh where it claims China has crossed the Line of Actual Control (LAC) even as external affairs minister confirmed his visit to the country on May 9.
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Should have doing all this earlier and on continuous basis. whatever we do these days is only reactive in nature

[kancha]

Tri-Services Gangnam Style!
Looks like some RAF guy attended some training in India & while at it, made this video!

[youtube]Eh11-Fk5QBY#![/youtube]

[tsarkar]

DSSC has come a long way with Directing Staff also participating.

[member_23455]

Tri-Services Gangnam Style!
Looks like some RAF guy attended some training in India & while at it, made this video!

So, contrary to all the wailing on this thread we are quite good at PSYops!

[sum]

^^ Are the wimmens in the video IN/IAF/IA afsars?

[Arunkumar]

Nice fun video.

[member_23360]

nice video, requires a bit choreography

[Nikhil T]

Don't drone on about US prowess: Indian Army too has its own Kadet

NEW DELHI: In March 2008, during the joint military exercise, Operation Brazen Chariots, in Rajasthan's Pokhran desert, radar-guided OSA-AK mid-range missiles blasted a Javelin 100NG aerial target into smithereens. That was a moment of validation for Avdesh Khaitan, who had abandoned his law practice with a family-owned firm the previous year to pursue his childhood hobby of aeromodelling.

If the targets made by his fledgling company hadn't performed well at the tests, his plan to build a business out of his childhood interest would have crashed in the desert. The targets performed just fine and two years later, Khaitan's Kadet Defence Systems became the first Indian company to win a defence ministry contract for aerial targets. Now, as the applications of drones or unmanned aerial vehicles are growing exponentially in the defence and aerospace sector, Khaitan is trying to build on his early success.

"The Air Force and Navy have announced plans to buy more than 500 aerial targets in the next three years. We are the only Indian company that has already supplied to the military and our products have been found to be reliable and cost-effective. So we have some basis to expect that we can win more business and grow rapidly," Khaitan said.

Aerial targets are a niche area within the large defence sector. To provide high-quality training for fighter pilots and anti-aircraft gunners and to test the effectiveness of radar and missile systems, the armed forces need aerial targets that can simulate incoming aircraft, missiles or remotely piloted vehicles. In order to closely simulate battle scenarios, these targets should be able to achieve speeds close to that of real missiles or fighter jets and should also be able to simulate jamming and evasive capabilities of such systems. India imported such targets and limited budgets used to mean limited training.

After the Pokhran nuclear tests in 1998, the US-imposed sanctions meant India had difficulty importing sophisticated aerial targets. Some low-tech alternatives were also in use. These included dropping an oil barrel attached to a parachute from an airplane or an older propellor-based airplane flying with a tethered sleeve.

In the late 1980s, Northrop's KD2R5 Shelduck target drone began to be used. India's Defence Research and Development Organization also developed an unmanned system called Lakshya, which also uses a tethered sleeve. But Lakshyas are relatively expensive to operate and needs additional resources for recovery of the mother vehicle.

Khaitan's company delivered the first batch of its JX2 (propellor-based) unmanned aerial targets in December last year. These can achieve speeds up to 0.2 Mach. Kadet's JX3 is a jet turbine powered UAV and can touch 0.5 Mach. He sources engines from Germany and builds the systems in his Kolkata factory. The expendable systems are cost effective, starting at Rs 1 lakh per unit for the JX2.

"The important thing for aerial targets is to be able to simulate enemy aircraft, incoming missiles or remotely operated vehicles. Kadet's systems are effective and the users seem to be happy with them. It is used to provide real-time training to our gunners. Otherwise such training is difficult and expensive," said Brigadier (retd) Arun Sahgal, director at the Forum for Strategic Initiative.

Khaitan wants to move to other UAV applications apart from aerial targets. It has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with the National Aerospace Laboratory to jointly develop advanced UAVs. His team of 15 - mostly engineers - is also working on UAVs for applications such as surveillance, hyper spectral imagery (applications in agriculture, mines and minerals) and GIS (geographical information system) mapping.

With aerial target orders worth several hundred crores in the pipeline for India's armed forces, Khaitan has ambitious plans for his small firm.

[Brando]

Tri-Services Gangnam Style!
Looks like some RAF guy attended some training in India & while at it, made this video!

Disgraceful and unbecoming.

If they wanted to clown around, why couldn't they do it in their civvies ?? Jumping around in uniform like some juvenile denigrates the services.

Did they get permission to do this or is it a free for all at Wellington for people to sing and dance about the campus ?

[member_23455]

Tri-Services Gangnam Style!
Looks like some RAF guy attended some training in India & while at it, made this video!

Disgraceful and unbecoming.

If they wanted to clown around, why couldn't they do it in their civvies ?? Jumping around in uniform like some juvenile denigrates the services.

Did they get permission to do this or is it a free for all at Wellington for people to sing and dance about the campus ?

Oh wow! The fun police is here!

Given that the DSSC not only takes in the cream of the services but also the older experienced heads I am sure they would have a good handle on how their actions would be interpreted .

Everyone gets to let down their hair once in a while - including those annual photos of jawans doing bhangra post their RD rehearsals, in their uniforms. And much worse happens in Regimental festivities, including the CO getting roasted - so as long as it is all in perspective, no harm, no foul.

[ASPuar]

Get over it. A military establishment is not a prison camp. Officers and wives are entitled to their fun.
The RAF officer was attending DSSC and made this video.

[Surya]

Did they get permission to do this

Yes , I approved it.

[kancha]

It's been removed from youtube

[rohitvats]

From here:http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/04/a ... ifice.html

A soldier's sacrifice. Capt Manish Singh of 9 Para (Special Forces) being awarded the Shaurya Chakra today for valour beyond the call of duty. Take a look at the face of everyone in this photo. That's what they feel about his sacrifice.

[Austin]

Dispute between Army and Air Force Regarding Fighter Helicopters ( via MOD Press )

There is no dispute between Army and Air Force for control of fighter helicopters. Keeping in view operational requirements, Government has decided that ownership of future inductions of attack helicopters will vest with the Army.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Mansukh L.Mandaviyaand Shri ParshottamKhodabhaiRupalain Rajya Sabha today.

[Prabu]

^^^^^^^ This is a good move ! There is no reason for the IAF to sulk about IA getting the attack helicopters !
The entire world has changed ! IAF should change its menatlity ! Attack choppers are now essential for all the three services, including Indian Navy !!

[Sanku]

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/three ... 130429.htm

Three navy officers axed for divulging secret info

It also told the standing committee on defence that in three cases of face-offs between troops and officers in the army, the forces have taken action against 219 officers, JCOs and jawans.

[member_23455]

^^^^^^^ This is a good move ! There is no reason for the IAF to sulk about IA getting the attack helicopters !
The entire world has changed ! IAF should change its menatlity ! Attack choppers are now essential for all the three services, including Indian Navy !!

Yeah well, the IAF showed its grown up attitude by churlishly holding on to the Apaches and St. Antony coming up with an expedient solution that all armed helicopter acquisitions post Apaches would go to the Army.

But I guess this 2 steps forward, one step back is still progress.

[VinodTK]

Army fumes as Chinese troops erect fifth tent and deploy dogs in Ladakh

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Chinese troops are also reported to have deployed Molosser dogs - large mastiff-type canines - at the site of incursion, 70km south of Burtse in Ladakh division.

Seething Indian Army sources told Mail Today that they have been arguing vehemently for a One Border One Force plan for some time.

The top sources said: "The Army would like to deal with all disputed borders. At the moment, there is a face-to-face situation which involves troops. An expeditious response is mandatory because the perception of the Chinese may well be that DBO where they are stationed 19km inside Indian territory is the Line of Actual Control, which is a dangerous trend."
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[rohitvats]

From Orbat.Com. Part 1

A good summary of the forces on ground (although, there are some minor factual errors).

· For those who like to know these things, the entire East Ladakh Line of Actual Control with China is under 3 Infantry Division at Leh. The division was hastily raised in 1962, and took over two brigades. One brigade, 114, was raised in 1959 when the East Ladakh crisis first erupted, with two battalions of locally raised troops, the Jammu & Kashmir Militia. Later, two regular army battalions were inducted. 70 Brigade arrived as a reinforcement after the war began. Later, 163 Brigade was pulled from the Pakistan border and given to 3 Division as division reserve. Still later, 121 (Independent ) Infantry Brigade was raised at Kargil, and put under the division’s command. At some point after 1963, the East Ladakh LAC was bifurcated between 22 Sector north of the Changchemo River, with 114 Brigade at Chushul and 70 Brigade at the southern end of the line at Demchok. 22 Sector has at least two subsectors, with Sub Sector North being responsible for DBO possibly down to the Galwan River.

· Strictly speaking, our intrepid South Asia correspondent Mandeep Bajwa should be telling you all this, as he knows much more about the independent Indian Army’s history that the Editor. The above is to Editor’s best recollection, but likely he’s made errors as he was always more concerned with orbats than history. Still is. But Mandeep is mad at Editor for some reason (he won’t explain why) and refuses to answer emails and chat requests. Please twitter him @MandeepBajwa and tell him to get with the program.


· Okay. In 1971 163 Brigade was withdrawn to Foxtrot Sector in the Punjab for the forthcoming Pakistan War, and it was not replaced because it was appraised there was no longer a China threat. In 1984, 102 (Independent) Brigade was raised at Thoise for the Siachin sector facing Pakistan, and 121 Brigade went under the newly raised 28 Division at Nimu. 102 Brigade was put under 3 Division.

· In 1999, on account of the Kargil War, 70 Brigade went to 8 Division, a formation brought in for the Kashmir Counter Insurgency from Eastern Command and stationed in Kashmir. 28 Division, minus 121 Brigade, went to Kupwara in the Kashmir Valley for the CI. So when the Kargil thing blew up, for operational reasons it was decided not to shift 28 Division back; instead 8 Division took over. Editor believes that 114 Brigade was also withdrawn for a time, leaving the China front denuded of regular troops. Anyway, 114 Brigade came back, and now, 14 years after leaving Demchok, 70 Brigade has come up. So you can see how seriously India was taking Chinese incursions. I.e., not at all seriously.

· To show how urgently India reacted to the threats in the decade 2001-2010, after opening DBO airfield not a single An-32 flight took place. Sub Sector North continued to be protected by outposts of the Indo Tibet Border Police, a high-altitude mountain warfare force raised after 1962 for patrolling the China border with Ladakh, Himachal, and Utter Pradesh. After the 1962 War, a new locally recruited force was raised, the Ladakh Scouts. These used to operate in companies, but after their steller performance in 1999 Kargil, they were given the status of a regular regiment and have, Editor thinks, six battalions. Sub Sector North is protected by 5 Ladakh Scouts, but till the other day this was not forward deployed. The rest of 22 Sector consists, as far as we know, by an infantry battalion, a Ladakh Scouts battalion, and a heavy mortar battery (12 x 120mm mortars), now for some peculiar reason called a heavy mortar regiment.

· After the Operation Trident fuss in 1986-87, India stationed a tank regiment and a mechanized battalion at Leh, under 3 Division; these became part of Corps troops when XIV Corps (Leh) was raised after the Kargil War. After the 2000s Chinese intrusions, India decided to sanction an armored brigade for Ladakh, which is now being raised, slowly. A T-90 tank regiment has gone to Leh and presumably it, plus the mechanized battalion, will form the nucleus of the new independent armored brigade, which will be under HQ XIV Corps as far as we know. India also okayed the raising of an infantry independent brigade group for the middle part of the Ladakh LAC with China. Something is happening, but we don’t know what since Mandeep is unavailable. Our assumption is that this will be based around Changchemo.


India is probably slowly building up to a new division HQ for North Ladakh, leaving 3 Division for South Ladakh. With these new raisings you cannot have a single division HQ controlling the entire 440-km or so Ladakh frontier. Is a third brigade being provided to bring 3 Division to strength? Don’t know – Mandeep will know, but he may not be free to speak, as the information is not released to the public. Sub Sector North also needs to become a separate sector, and the rest of 22 Sector put under a new brigade HQ with a third battalion added. Then 102 Brigade, DBO subsector, the new brigade in lieu of 22 Sector, and the new independent brigade could become part of a new division. But what the Indian Army needs and the bureaucrats agree to are two different things.

[rohitvats]

From Orbat.Com - Part 2

· Last Friday we detailed Indian deployments in Ladakh, current and planned. On China’s side the situation is quite simple. The Lanzhou Military Region has two army corps, one of which has been reduced to three independent brigades. The Xinjiang Military District has an unusually large number of independent formations, giving the MR 1 armored, 3 motorized or mechanized, and 1 infantry division, plus seven infantry, mechanized or motorized, and armored brigades.

· There is no particular reason why today these seven division equivalents cannot be deployed against India in Ladakh, Himachal Pradesh, and Uttarakhand. Personally, we have doubts about the efficiency of these troops, who have spent decades in (relatively) comfortable garrisons, have no experience in mountain warfare, and except a few senior generals have never heard a shot fired in battle. But none of this matters, because China does not intend to fight India in the high mountains as in 1962.

· Primarily it counts on Indian political cowardice to forestall any aggressive action on India’s part. But should that fail, the Chinese plan to let India comes down from their mountains to the plains of the plateau, and crush them there using light and medium armor. Not a bad strategy given they lose very little if they lose their high altitude outposts, because their mountain positions are shallow.

· To reiterate, in Ladakh we had postulated that soon there will be the equivalent of two infantry divisions and an armored brigade. It may appear on the surface of it that India is outnumbered three-to-one and in a very bad situation. At least the political types and Ministry of External Affairs, who are always holding out olive branches to the Chinese, would like Indians to believe that. Impressing on the nation its weakness reduces domestic pressure to take a hard line, and lets people believe “well, we have no choice but to compromise”. Naturally, Indians who cannot remember what happened yesterday and have zero interest in tomorrow, don’t ask why after 50-years and after the creation of the world’s largest mountain warfare force this should be so. No one who operates in a western frame of logic can explain anything India and Indians do.

· In reality there is no 3-1 superiority for China because if we are talking of the Xinjiang theater, India can, without difficulty, reinforce Ladakh-Himachal-Uttarkhand with additional divisions to quickly bring itself up to parity in the theatre.

· To problem is, what then? China is not about to launch a full-scale attack on India. The Chinese are arrogant and run their mouths like sewing machines, but they are not fools. They will get nowhere with an attack because their troops will have to dismount and slog it out in the mountains, where they will be at tremendous disadvantage. India is not about to attack China because of the lack of political will.

· But, readers will object, aren’t you forgetting the highly unfavorable Indian logistical situation. So we can push additional divisions into the Ladakh-Himachal-Uttarakhand sectors, but how are we going to support an offensive? The days are gone when an Indian mountain division needed just 200-tons of supplies a day. Back in those days a Chinese division got by with 50 or less because their divisions had little artillery (in the mountains) and few vehicles. Ah yes, simpler times – Editor gets quite nostalgic. Now the division artillery alone would need 200-tons/day in the attack. Moreover, how is India going to get artillery and vehicles to the mountain passes and across down to the Tibet plateau when roads are lacking?

· And what about an even greater problem: India has almost no east-west interconnectivity because of the mountains. Every sector has deployments like the open fingers of a hand, each finger proceeding up a steep, narrow valley, but the fingers cannot switch forces between them. For the Chinese that is no problem because they are on the plateau and have an excellent east-west main trunk road, plus other roads.


Well, we are not saying that this is not a problem. But where there is a will there is a way. India can still mount major offensives in the northwest and northeast. It would, however, have to carefully plan and carefully prepare. Since there is no will, there is no way. If India has done little in fifty years to prepare, what is the chance it will mend its bad ways and prepare for an all-out war in a year? Zero. But it can be done should in some alternative universe India decide to move. This we will discuss tomorrow.