China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

vic · Post by **vic** » 27 Apr 2013 19:34

Am sure very soon there will be demand to import sophisticated plastic buckets from Switzlerland to compete with Chinese Aircraft Carrier.

We used to have leaders who were "Nationalists", now we have leaders who are "Internationalists". If I was a Chinese leader, I would be already negotiating schedule for handover of Arunachal Pradesh with list of beneficiaries of Telecom equipment bribes.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 27 Apr 2013 20:13

The Chinese have kept the "border" ambiguous because they know how soft our ownership projection is. They operate in a world where possession is 2/3 of ownership just like the pakis and even BDs and Sri Lankans do. India operates in a world of lines of control, lines of actual control, demarches, strong protests and chai-biskoot statements. It was true in 1962 and again in Kargil but we have a machinery that is hardwired not to learn anything, no matter how much we bleed or how many times.

The only correct response now is to set up four 30-man camps 10 km behind these troops and surround them, even if we have to para drop them at night. Everything else is a surrender and an invitation to further occupation because that's what this is.

rohankumaon · Post by **rohankumaon** » 27 Apr 2013 20:19

Agreed Victor. And to rub the salt and even more play down the incident - Report from TOI

BEIJING: India and China have finalized arrangements to hold joint anti-terrorism exercises later this year even as they are grappling with the issue of intrusion by the People's Liberation Army (PLA) forces into the Depsang Valley in Ladakh. Separately, officials of the two countries are also poised to hold talks on river waters next week to address New Delhi's concerns over Beijing's plans to construct new dams on Brahmaputra as well as liberalization of visa regime between the two countries ahead of external affairs minister Salman Khurshid visit here on May 9. This week, a three-member Indian delegation, headed by Brigadier YK Joshi, visited Chengdu, the headquarters of the military brigade that is largely focussed on Tibet and China's borders with India, official sources here told PTI. They discussed preparations for the exercises being resumed after gap of four years, the sources said. The visit of the Indian military delegation assumed significance as the both militaries were at loggerheads over Chinese soldiers pitching tents at Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) in Ladakh, which India said is an intrusion. It has asked the PLA to restore status quo. On its part, China denied any violation of the line of actual control (LAC) by its troops and the two countries held hectic negotiations to resolve it ahead of Khurshid's visit. After initial reactions, India and China played down differences, saying that the efforts were on to sort them out. Khrushid visit will be followed by new Chinese Premier Li Keqiang's visit to New Delhi later next month, making it his first stop of his maiden overseas tour. Sources said Brig Joshi's delegation, which winded up its visit on Friday, however, focused only on the plans to hold joint exercises as the Ladakh issue is being dealt through border consultation mechanism worked out by the two countries last year. The Indian military delegation discussed the composition of the troops to take part in the exercises, besides the logistics and the format of which will be anti-terrorism. They also made field visits to the areas where the Chinese side plans to conduct the drills. The two sides plans to press in a company of troops take part in the exercises. The schedule of the exercises, which were expected to be held in September or October this year, will be finalized between the two side at a later date.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 756948.cms

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 27 Apr 2013 20:42

What is this "10 km inside our territory" BS parroted by everyone from MEA to the news outlets. The Western/Karakoram Highway is in our territory and it is 140 km from DBO. If they can be flagrant about agreements, we should land our C-130Js on this highway, have a picnic and leave Raja Roti and MTR channa masala wrappers behind.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 28 Apr 2013 08:58

The Good Colonel is at it again...

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/04/c ... ndias.html

In 1986, a Chinese patrol pitched up tents in a disputed area called Wangdung, north of Tawang, triggering a furious Indian Army build up that came close to actual hostilities. China sought a flag meeting; the PLA realized that it was dealing with a very different Indian Army from the one it had whipped in 1962.

...and the same man on TV channels claims that Sumdorong Chu/Wangdung was a failure since the Chinese are still there!

This forum s/w badly needs a facepalm smiley.

member_22019 · Post by **member_22019** » 28 Apr 2013 10:55

RajitO wrote: ...and the same man on TV channels claims that Sumdorong Chu/Wangdung was a failure since the Chinese are still there!

This person has dubious character. First he started his nonsense with F35 and then ultimately ended up being disgraced while putting his opinion on beheading of Indian soldiers. I can understand why ndtv invites such type of person as defense expert, because this channel always try to hogwash the inability of our current impotent leaders in the name of debates. At our BRF forum we have people who are many times better than this fraud defense expert. Pardon for my language, but it becomes difficult to hold my temper when i talk about such backstabbers.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Apr 2013 12:02

A few tents can easily be wiped away by the army. The idea is not to use force for a piddly incursion, Judging from the reports that this is a "localized" thing it may be a macho forward post commander in China who is acting big - i.e setting up a chip on his shoulder and inviting it to be knocked down. At this point in time, reports in the media do not suggest that there is any major offensive backing these tents. The idea seems to be to get them to move back on their own without having to be wiped out.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2013 12:11

well unless the macho Col of their fwd unit didnt have backing until GHQ level in Peking dont you think his men would have departed long ago with this being a international std incident?

there is no fruit tree or well of rejuvenating water at the campsite to hold them engaged so long unless they WANT to be there.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 28 Apr 2013 12:23

Big mistake and completely irresponsible to assume this incursion is not authorised at the highest level in China. If it was not authorised, they could have withdrawn after 1 day, and blamed faulty GPS equipment (Made in China naturally).

The Chinese foreign ministry has formally stated that the PLA has not crossed the LAC; in two flag meetings, the Chinese have made demands for India to dismantle our security infrastructure; and the Chinese behavoiur at DBO is consistent with what they have been doing in the Senkaku islands and the South China Sea.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Apr 2013 12:28

This incursion is certainly authorized by highest level at the PLAAF with new leadership at top being assured this wont flare up to full stand off , the point is Chinese want some kind of concession from GOI hence incursion in full lime light and still persisting , will GOI give into Chinese demand or atleast some of it needs to be seen , coming days will have a clear answer.

Had this been pakistani they would have come in beheaded some indian soldiers and would have gone back making a point in Jihadi fashion , while GOI would have left high and dry sucking their thumb with strong protest via MEA.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Apr 2013 17:35

The Chinese have always done this,pulled off a stunt on the eve of an Indo-China meeting of top leaders from ABV's visit while they invaded Vietnam during the visit.It is meant to unsettle us and keep us off balance,while they work out their long in the making plot.Here they hope to legitimise their "invasion" of Indian territory as a weak and supine Indian govt. which lacks testes,has an FM who runs around like a headless chicken a willing to prostrate himself for a "good visit".This would never had happened if Indira or rajiv for that matter were in charge.Sadly,the Congress party has been reduced in reputation to that of the Mughal emperor Shah Alam,whose empire it was derisively said stretched from "Dilli to Palam"!

Here's what a former DCoAS say,but truly how prepared are we?

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/130428/c ... r%E2%80%99

‘There won’t be a repeat of the 1962 military disaster’
DC | Sridhar Kumaraswami |

China’s recent action of establishing a tented post in the Daulat Beg Oldi area of eastern Ladakh, 19 km into Indian territory, has created a storm that refuses to subside. Against this backdrop, former deputy chief of the Army Lt. Gen. Raj Kadyan talks to Sridhar Kumaraswami on the implications of the incident and how India should respond.

Why has China established a tented post in the Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) area? What are the Chinese objectives?

We have a Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China, which is over 4,000 kilometres long. It is a tough terrain in Ladakh and there are no identifiable features. It is quite possible that they (China) have done it knowingly but at the tactical level (at the level of the local PLA Army commander).

The wide publicity in the media has also raised the temperatures. If you look at the ground realities, we have more manpower there. This is an action that should be left to the tactical level to handle. Even if we assume that the Chinese have done this as part of a conscious strategy, then it is muscle flexing at best. They want to discourage us from developing our infrastructure in our part of the border areas. But there is a false impression being created by some that our Army is weaker than the Chinese on the ground and that the Chinese are dictating the terms.

But some would argue that China has a habit of creating such a stir before a high-profile visit. The Chinese Premier is to visit India shortly.

China may want to be in a stronger position to bargain. But the visit of the Chinese Premier covers a much larger canvas. It has much higher objectives to achieve. China is not going to make the visit subservient to a small incident at the local level. In my view, it’s a tactical action that will be handled by the Indian Army at the tactical level.

What are the implications of this incursion? Could the act of pitching the tent be a symbolic yet physical laying claim to territory?

If there were any large-scale implications, they (the Chinese) would have had a backup. There are reports that China has not sent in reinforcements. We have a higher number of troops in that area than China. So far as pitching a tent by itself is concerned, it is a little more serious than patrolling. But the Indian Army is in a strong position. This is not such a serious escalation that we, as a country, should get worried about. The matter is also being resolved at the diplomatic level.

Should there be a detailed agreement between India and China on patrolling near the LAC? China wanted a written agreement that there should be no “tailing” of border patrols by the other side at the LAC.

What the Chinese may have proposed has certain intricacies. This is an ongoing process of dialogue. This point will be tied up with other issues. One point cannot be taken in isolation. But even if certain concessions are made, there is no guarantee that such incidents will not take place again or that the Chinese will not patrol up to their perception of the LAC.

How will the current crisis be resolved in that case? Our external affairs minister is going to visit China. Does this not indicate that this is not just a minor incident?

I do not subscribe to the view that this is a crisis. It is a small incident that is being blown out of proportion by some sections of the media. It is a tactical-level event and will be sorted out by the tactical-level commanders. I am sure our Army is well poised to deal with the situation and take whatever action is considered essential. The situation is being monitored by various inter-ministerial groups of the government and an appropriate response would be made. As part of preliminary discussions to prepare the ground for the Chinese Premier’s visit, the visit of our foreign minister is normal at this stage.

The Army has been demanding that the Indo-Tibetan Border Police be put under its operational control. Do you agree with this demand?

Yes. Accountability and authority must go together. Accountability of guarding the border stays with the Army. The authority of patrolling is given to the ITBP, which does not function under the Army. Operational control of anyone patrolling the border, like the India-China border, must be with the Army. This is because the Army has the responsibility of safeguarding the country’s territorial integrity. The ITBP must be under the operational control of the Army, so that patrolling and deployment activities can be co-coordinated by the Army.

Could the current incident spiral out of control and result in a border conflagration? After all, just recently, China and its eastern neighbour Japan got into a bout of military tension over a group of islands in the East China Sea?

Both the Chinese and Indian economies are growing. I don’t think either country will want to do anything that will retard that process. Wars don’t start overnight; they have a long-term aim. I don’t think India and China will want a border conflagration or armed conflict. It makes no sense. This piece of territory under the lens today is too small to give China a huge strategic advantage. This is an isolated incident. So far as the tension between China and Japan is concerned, at stake was the ownership over a group of islands, which perhaps gave a strategic advantage over the sea-lanes of communication. Indeed, China has been assertive with India as well. But this incident is not comparable with what happened between China and Japan.

China had refused a visa in 2010 to the then Northern Command chief Lt. Gen. B.S. Jaswal. And they were issuing stapled visas to Indian citizens from Jammu and Kashmir. China has indulged earlier in blatant provocative actions.

Perhaps, China wanted to send a strong signal to Pakistan that it supports Pakistan. China only sees India as a rival in the region. They may resort to actions to contain India’s growing strength. But we need to engage China in all spheres. At the same time, we need to develop our military capabilities. When we want to raise a mountain strike corps, there are some who think that the Army wants to indulge in empire building.

But raising a mountain strike corps is a national requirement. We must develop infrastructure in the border areas quickly. We have been slow at it. But now that the Chinese have developed it on their side quickly, we are reacting. We should be prepared so that in the future, if there is any adventurism on the part of China, we should not be found wanting. But I am confident there won’t be a repeat of the 1962 military disaster.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Apr 2013 18:10

Not very fond of emoticons, but:

The article itself states:

The wide publicity in the media has also raised the temperatures. If you look at the ground realities, we have more manpower there. This is an action that should be left to the tactical level to handle. Even if we assume that the Chinese have done this as part of a conscious strategy, then it is muscle flexing at best. They want to discourage us from developing our infrastructure in our part of the border areas. But there is a false impression being created by some that our Army is weaker than the Chinese on the ground and that the Chinese are dictating the terms.

And yet there is more worry in the commentary !!!!

__________________________

Stated this before, these things have been going on for ages. Just that in these days the internet tends to raise "temperatures". Recall there were pictures posted on BR that showed soldiers from both sides enjoying some tea together.

This new Chinese administration is more trigger happy for sure, but that is part of the game. Silly and childish as the leaders are in ND, they are not foolish to the extent to lay down. They may slip here and there, but so will the Chinese.

This incident will not escalate IMHO. It will remain a little tense but under control.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 28 Apr 2013 19:18

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/opi ... 733227.cms

CHINA is simply shooting itself in the foot.....I am not sure what objective they want to achieve my putting out a few tents here and a few tens there...Hell the pakis are much more serious and commits divisions to intrude in India. And these days u need not send partrols to find out the strength and resolve , just take photos from space and send in a few UAVs, scamable a few fighters... So this mediaval strategy on pitching tents really gives u a sneak in the mind and operational stratgey and may be equipment level of PLA.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 28 Apr 2013 19:24

CHINA is desparate for mil tech. UK does not have much to offer so France is being welcome which is also not so much aligned with the anglo saxon block. It is ridiculous, the title, "China punishes..". Punishes, my foot. But france will have to do a balancing act or else its market in India will be at stake.

manum · Post by **manum** » 28 Apr 2013 19:28

They are shooting in their own foot...because it'll make us more conscious of our weakness's and there will more and quicker improvement in those weaknesses...

Secondly I don't think Chinese military is totally in control of the party...They have their own head...

skganji · Post by **skganji** » 28 Apr 2013 21:27

Philip wrote:18 km inside Indian territory.If that is not an "invasion" or at least 'deep intrusion" then what do you cal it? Quite rightly Mulayam has asked why our For.Sec. is going to Beijing,to "kowtow" perhaps?

If we are going to set up advanced landing grounds,as at DBO,we should have the troops on the ground to protect it as well.The extreme self-delusion of the regime of eunuchs is why we are now in sh*t street.Right now without field artillery and ammo for the heights,as well as the plains-as was so graphically conveyed to the GOI by Gen. VKS,we are in no position to take on the Chinese a spat at the present moment.We should within the next few months,on a war footing,beef up the army in its stance against the Chinese as much as possible,plugging the gaps wherever can be done.A diplomatic offensive to wound the Chinese in equal measure should commence.Withdrawing our stance on Tibet and following up with a deeper relationship with the Tibetan govt. in exile should take place right away.There are differences even in the western states viewpoint of China,Tibet and HH the Dalai Lama.

MMS and Sonia can't protect the country. They are completely useless and the country's leadership should change. Looking at MMS statements show how scared he is of the current situation with China. These people could be stopping the army to take military action against china. India needs to take military action against china to protect its border. India shouldn't be worried about chinese rant. How long will India continue yielding its territory without protecting its borders. India looks like a mice infront of cat China. Will the leadership of the country have some guts to face china. We need strong leadership not this kind of idiotic leadership which has no vision for country's security. Countries like Vietnam are doing better to protect itself from China. India with all that huge military spending and armed forces, naval forces and airforce is a big scam. Shameless politicians and shameless leadership. People are to be blamed for electing eunuchs .Jai Hind.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 28 Apr 2013 21:50

.....I am not sure what objective they want to achieve my putting out a few tents here and a few tens there...Hell the pakis are much more serious and commits divisions to intrude in India. And these days u need not send partrols to find out the strength and resolve , just take photos from space and send in a few UAVs, scamable a few fighters... So this mediaval strategy on pitching tents really gives u a sneak in the mind and operational stratgey and may be equipment level of PLA.

Sir, why disregard this incident as a foolish attempt by the PLA? Don't you think they are lot more conscious about showing their strength/muscle using non-medieval methods such as tents? Comparing their encroachment approach to Paki straight-forwardness is not accurate, unless you also take into account the downside risk, as perceived by the enemy. China needs Indian market more than TSP. In fact I would argue that threat from China to our domestic economy is much much more serious and imminent than anything related to the border. Whether the tent incident is local "shenanigans" or orders directly from PLA headquarters, why does it minimize the impact of the threat?

For a moment, lets switch sides for a minute and think as if you are Chinese. How would you test the preparedness of Indians (not just military-wise but overall, how nation responds to crisis). While keeping in mind that value of well-to-do India (to Chinese, in terms of all dumping cheap products) is much much more than a India that seriously hurt by direct Chinese military actions.

What kind of things would you (as a Chinese) try to test by creating border incidents (including setting up tents in disputed territory)

1. Does Indian military respond directly/immediately or does it wait for its politically elected figures to provide guidelines on responding?
2. If it waits for its politicians to provide direction, how long does it wait? and while waiting, what does it do?
3. Assuming politicians are made aware of the facts, how does Indian politicians react? How long do they take to respond?
4. Who initiates the flag meeting? How desperate are the Indians in requesting the flag meeting? When they meet at the meeting how do they talk?
5. When does the media is made aware of such incidents? How does media respond? How does India population respond? Even if the population is angry, can they influence their elected politicians to take firm action?
6. Will India respond with any trade threat? Can India hurt us (i.e. China) with trade if we make similar incident in the future?
7. How does the changing Indian demographic respond to these incidents?
8. Should Tibetan side of Indian border be kept always tense so as to avoid any miscalculation from Indian about Tibet?
9. Does India respond as to "not sound" weak in eyes of its population or world; or is the Indian democratic system good enough to respond to such threats with one voice?
10. How does the opposition parties respond to border disputes?
11. Does India has guts to cancel the Premier's visit in response to this incident?
12. It is generally perceived that Indians are not aggressive, so can we test how far and how much we can push?
13. If India does not respond, does it mean the politicians rather not have a conflict which could derail economic progress? If tat is case, how bad we can we hurt India so that they continue to ignore in the name of normalize relationship, while we (Chinese) make marginal (although insignificant) border gains?
14. If we put 4 tent, does India put 4 tents or 8 tents? Do they put the tents in front of us, behind us? and how does their response provide insights into their psyche?

The point is that the incident may be small/insignificant but the opportunities to learn about enemy (India) from the eyes of Chinese are plentiful.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 28 Apr 2013 22:51

Nice post chanakyaa!

I am not sure what objective they want to achieve my putting out a few tents here and a few tens there

The Chinese have an official claim to the territory and they have steadfastly and loudly maintained that claim without break, regardless of intervening feel-good "CBMs" (the "confidence" in CBM is for us onlee) and chai-pani "agreements". From time to time, they remind us of this in crude fashion so we don't forget and they have found that this particular elephant tends to forget. At the most benign level, this is simply a re-statement and reminder of their claims before an important meeting of leaders.

We on the other hand don't seem to have the conviction in our own maps that would lead us to take retailiatory action. We have talked about this before on BR but if a local goonda entered our premises and pitched his charpai in our verandah complete with mosquito net and prevented our venturing outside, what should we do and what are we acutally doing? I have never in my life seen anything but the meekest and faintest of apologetic-sounding bleats out of Dilli about the maps that we routinely see showing the whole of J&K, forget PoK, and Arunachal as "disputed" territory. What prevents us from ceaselessly and loudly pointing to the illegality of these maps?

I get that we are stronger in that area right now but I also have the feeling that if the chips fell, the Chinese could overwhelm us much quicker than we could overwhelm them. DBO, Nyoma etc could be rendered off limits in an instant by ground troops carrying manpads. For them and the pakis, Siachen and the Karakoram Pass are absolutely key and both are right next door.

We MUST repay this action with a disproportionate reaction even if it is political (cancel the visit) or military (occupy area behind these tents) and back it up with a forcefully articulated objective of getting the Chinese and Pakis to first vacate all the territory that they have illegally occupied, period. If we don't make this central to all our interactions at all levels and all venues, then we are accepting that goonda raj rules and international law means nothing. There is nothing wrong with this either, but then we need to act accordingly, not like a frail old woman.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Apr 2013 23:31

The problem is rather simple (right or wrong): In China the two - gov and the services are in total sync and determined (BTW, even Taiwan claims that AP is part of China), in India the gov has a slightly diff agenda (and rightly so) until the situation becomes too unbearable.

It is not that the IA cannot respond, it is that the political wings calculus does not see the need - so far - to get into a higher gear. But if and when it does the IA will act.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 29 Apr 2013 00:59

You guys have it all wrong. When trying to understand an adversary, it starts and ends with capabilities and intentions, so let's look at this situation from these two perspectives. What exactly are China's capabilities and intentions regarding the land borders?

First, can China actually invade and hold Indian territories across the Himalayas? Sure, China has built plenty of infrastructure leading up to the border, but none of that is useful in an offensive battle without the infrastructure cross the border and beyond. As far as I know, there exists no good way to actually cross the Himalayas with an army, and even if an army can cross it, there exists no way to adquately supply the army so that it can hold land across the border, let alone launching further invasions deeper into India. This isn't even considering how the hostile local populace may complicate things logistically, if not outright militarily.

Second, what are China's intentions? What use is it to China to hold a few more rocks? What exactly what an invasion across the mountains accomplish? There are a few theories running on this board. First, there's the view that China may wish to start a local war should there be instability at home and the government needs to validate its legitimacy by winning a war against a foreign power. I won't put the Chinese government or any government for that matter above this. However, the key here is winning; you pick a winnable war to fight in this scenario. Fighting a land war against the most powerful land opponent in Asia other than Russia, a nuclear power no less, and across the Himalayas into hostile population...well, let's just say it's not the most winnable option on the table. Then there's the view that China is an expansionist power seeking new territories. Why then, did China settle all their land disputes except those in the Indian subcontinent region, oftentimes getting less of the disputed land than the opponent? If China is willing to settle territorial disputes at a net loss with "powers" like Tajikstan, and at 50-50 split with the hated Vietnam, why isn't it willing to settle with the likes of India and Bhutan? Territory, per se, is not the issue here, as China lost vast territories which it could've easily strong-armed into having in its disputes. The issue here is all about location. The land borders that remain to be settled are all along the Himalayas, which will lead to my next point.

So what exactly are China's intentions and capabilities? After analyzing and discarding the alternatives, the intention seems rather clear. The land excursions are distractions, distractions meant to tie up Indian resources near the lifeless mountains and in its bureaucratic Army. Where do the resources not go to? They're not going to the Air Force, and more importantly, the efficient Indian Navy. China has little use for a few rocks along the borders, but its growth and indeed its lifeline is along the seaways near India. The problem for China is that India has had quite the head start in terms of becoming a maritime power, and India has a gigantic geographic advantage in terms of controlling the sea lanes. Even given the smaller economy, India, should it focus on becoming a maritime power, can easily control the Indian ocean and its key trade routes connecting Africa, Europe, and the Middle East to China with its tradition and geography. This is something the Chinese would very much like to prevent, but lack the capabilities to put a hard stop to.

So what can China do? What capabilities does it possess? Well, it can certainly, at very little cost, print stapled visas, set up tents along the borders +/- a few kilometers, and extend infrastructure up to the border(which BTW can indeed serve dual purposes and help develop the economy as well, so it's not an entirely wasteful adventure). These things hardly gets a mention in China, but perhaps due to the lasting impression left on Indian minds by the 1962 conflict, it stirs the presses like no other in India. Given that India is a democracy governed by the often fervent but misdirected will of the general populace, these things can force the Indian government to shift resources to guard lifeless rocks rather than the bustling seas. Just read this site for example, imminent Chinese plans to build larger, CATOBAR carriers barely garnered a response. The massive Chinese naval build-up, like the construction of 12 054A Frigates, 6 052C Destroyers, and 4 052D Destroyers over a span of just 5 years or so is hardly ever analyzed and discussed here. Yet a platoon set up a few tents 10km across the LOC as stirred up a whole page's worth of debate or more.

It's all just my opinion, of course, but it seems rather clear to me that the Indian strategic view is out of focus at this moment.

skganji · Post by **skganji** » 29 Apr 2013 05:43

India can do on thing at this point. Create a huge ditch around the tent using small missiles. No point in hitting the tent. Detach the tent from supplies. Time has come for India to take a strong action. Who is scared of chinese military , if they attack India can defend and attack. Casualities will be there on both side no matter what. But atleast it will show chinese that it is not good to mess with India again. Let the Armed forces of India make a judgement not stupid politicians sitting in AC bungalows in Delhi with no idea on what is going on in the border.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Apr 2013 05:52

Why not give them parachute

member_20296 · Post by **member_20296** » 29 Apr 2013 09:58

I remember China doing same thing with Japs in Senkaku, they never left or talked to China, aggresion was met with aggression. If aggression is responded with talks then

They have come to our territory which is uncalled for and this intrusion is really deep they must be surrounded and humilated (not killed). If they repeat this, they must be killed to assert our territory.

China can not afford to fight each one of its neighbour we must capitalise on this mistake and set the record straight.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 29 Apr 2013 10:43

There was another nice article in Telegraph today. And if we are to belive their sources, there is much more than meet the eyes. Actually, it is us who have moved our permanent buckers, slowly, from Siachin, towards east to a point that now IA can keep a hawk eye on every passing vehicle on the karakoram high way. This is what has been referred to as "agressive partrolling" by the CHINESE. We ofcourse will not mention about it. CHINESE's permier had gone out of the protocol, to send a strong message of how important India is, my making India the first stop of his first internatinal trip. And MMS will pay a back to back visit. It, is in this backdrop, and also the backdrop of a new Indian amasador going to China, that they have boiled up the pot to thrust border discussions on the 2 premier summit agenda. They want a solution now and this is a big departure from where China never wanted a solution to the border dispute. Their new president, during the Bric summit in Brazil, told MMS that they want a solution to the border dispute ASAP which is something no Chinese leader has said in clear terms before. So my take is that China is hard pressed to have a peacful border with India now and they want to make sure that it remains the main aganda during the two permiers and gets solved in near future.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Apr 2013 10:53

subhamoy.das wrote:Their new president, during the Bric summit in Brazil, told MMS that they want a solution to the border dispute ASAP which is something no Chinese leader has said in clear terms before. So my take is that China is hard pressed to have a peacful border with India now and they want to make sure that it remains the main aganda during the two permiers and gets solved in near future.

It is all about Japan changing the stakes and geo political alignment.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Apr 2013 11:42

There is some merit in that China may be trying to divert attention and confine Indian mil. thought and doctrine to be a predominantly land based one.The IN is the most feared Indian armed force from all Chinese writings.However,the current gambit is not that simple.The loss of any territory,whether it is truly hospitable or valuable plants a stigma on the leadership of the loser,in the eyes of its people.Having suffered humiliation in '62,any further spat and loss of even a small patch of land ,without an equivalent destruction upon Chinese forces,would be unacceptable to the India people and the govt. of the day would have to resign.

So what is China actually upto? Some years ago,a prominent China watcher said that until it met resistance,China would continue a relentless policy of territorial expansion on land,sea,and space.This it has been doing in the Asia-Pacific region,the Indo-China Sea,in Tibet all along the Indo-Tibetan border and expansion of maritime facilities all over the IOR.It is not a coincidence that India is in the middle of all this "squeezing" of the Chinese fist.We have to seriously rethink our entire attitude towards China.Only a strong diplomatic,economic and military response will deter the Chinese ...for the time being.When they perceive India as being a weak nation,they will resume their aggression.We do need an increased strike force all along the Tibetan border (not Chinese,as we contest the Chinese claim to Tibet,it being a Buddhist nation and Buddhism began in India),one strike corps will not be enough,plus a 20-25% increase in the numerical strength of the IAF,along with the IN's naval expansion plans,a fleet of at least 6 SSBNs and 6-8 SSGNs,and a 3 carrier fleet,along with the req. amphib. capabilities.

PS:In this regional context,see how the "Empire is also planning to strike back!"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -Gulf.html

Britain may reverse East of Suez policy with return to military bases in Gulf
Britain plans to restore a permanent military presence in the Gulf, basing land, air and naval forces in the region, according to a defence think tank with close ties to the armed forces.

A simultaneous diplomatic offensive to coordinate the same with other threatened nations in the Asia-Pacific region should be undertaken to chart out a common method of dealing with Chinese aggression and expansionism.The easiest way to wound the dragon is a total boycott on Chinese goods and services.

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Apr 2013 12:18

From Orbat:

Truthfully, Editor wanted to write again about the latest Sino-India flareup, which is making India look worse each passing day. The Chinese, aside from denying they have intruded in Indian territory, have also ordered India to dismantle bunker construction it undertook after Chinese intrusions became an epidemic. Daulat Beg Oldi is not the only place this nonsense is taking place. The Chinese have been systematically intruding across the entire Line of Actual Control with the aim of straightening it out to their advantage. Every time the Indian meep pathetically like whipped dogs, the Chinese give their standard retort: if you’d only agree to forgo your claims in Ladakh and about a hundred other points, we could demarcate the border for good. Naturally, even if India were to do this, the Chinese provocations would not stop because Beijing wants to make it clear there is only one top dog in Asia, and that dog is it. The only way China will stop is if it formally accepts China as its liege lord, and is prepared to kiss the Chinese emperor’s stinky big toe when ordered.

· In response to this crisis, which is now approaching three weeks, the Government of India has sunk to a level of cowardice that amazes even the Editor. Amazes because the Editor has been sure for 40-years that the Indians can sink no lower. But this time they have managed with great ease, calm, and finesse. The Indian Prime Minister has said he does not want to escalate the crisis and plans negotiations to resolve the issue. The Indian Foreign Minister is still scheduled to fly to Beijing on May 9, and the Chinese premier is still slated to visit India on May 20.

· Heaven almighty. They say even a whipped dog will at some point turn on its tormentor, but India has not yet reached that point despite every humiliation the Chinese have inflicted. Now, if Editor were to write more on the Indian Government he will end up in a frothing fury followed by the inevitable stroke. What’s happening is a complete an utter nightmare for any Indian who pretends to the least patriotism for her/his country.

nits · Post by **nits** » 29 Apr 2013 13:45

Something which is not at all coming in any Media Reports

1) Are we able to Jam there comms back home \ intercept them
2) How much days supplies they carry? are they getting supplies \ if yes can it be stopped
3) Type of Weapon \ Ammo they have ?

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 29 Apr 2013 14:09

Regarding supplies, the CHINESE are close to a the karakoram highway as if they came rolling down from it so supply should not be a problem. As aginst, India needs to air drop supplies.

rohankumaon · Post by **rohankumaon** » 29 Apr 2013 14:35

What Indian side does not want to talk about when it comes to China
- Unpalatable border home truths and progress that annoy Beijing-baiters
Washington, April 28: Resolute in a weekend decision to prioritise the totality of Sino-Indian relations instead of overreacting to shifting control of tracts of wasteland in Ladakh, the political leadership in New Delhi has taken charge of resolving the latest land dispute with Beijing.

The Prime Minister’s description of the new Chinese encampments in disputed areas of Daulat Beg Oldi as a “localised problem” was the highlight on the issue on Saturday. More significant, in fact, has been a moderated change in defence minister A.K. Antony’s position since the incursions in Burthe came to light a week ago. .....

Antony, it is understood, is now aware that India’s permanent encampments have gradually inched forward east and north of the Siachen glacier, that India has built three air strips on disputed territory and that it has beefed up its positions to such an extent that its forces can now monitor movements on the Karakoram highway and has a critical eye on roads that connect to Sinkiang.

http://telegraphindia.com/1130429/jsp/f ... X48TUoeho4

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Apr 2013 14:44

When Nirupama Rao was ambassador in Beijing and was similarly in the running for the top diplomat’s job, the Chinese created a crisis by infiltrating the embassy, trapping the station chief of the Research and Analysis Wing. Several other staffers were casualties of that episode.

Has India ever managed to do any such operation on the Chinese embassy here? Any news reports etc of any such incident ever?

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 29 Apr 2013 14:49

The ideal thing to do right now is a night time raid by our Ladhak Scouts using chili grenades, a camp with 50 soldeirs doesn't need more than 20 chilli grenades, catch em off guard, non lethel stuff, bind them all and return them to Beijing with a Spicy humorous warning. Best would be pictures with their pants down. If I was the area commander, I would so authorize this raid (would get fired for doing so) but would sinspuire scores of troops over there, no killing, plain old Mirch.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 29 Apr 2013 15:53

Why are we(GOI) silent on these incursions ? what is our response ? or what should be our response ? We appear so weak in front of teh world, beinga Nuke power !!

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 29 Apr 2013 19:07

Indian Govt silent. Is this part of a strategy?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 779893.cms

rohankumaon · Post by **rohankumaon** » 29 Apr 2013 20:39

Chinese troops put up another tent in Ladakh, hoist a banner "you are in Chinese side

In a startling disclosure to Headlines Today, Stobdan said more than 400 sq km of prime pasture land has been conceded by India to the aggressive neighbour in Ladakh region only. China's aim seems to be to push India to the west of the river Indus.

"From 1980s till 2008, we have lost 45x9 sq km of land in Ladakh to China... Areas where we could go in 80s are out of bounds today for us,â Stobdan told Headlines Today.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chin ... 68364.html

skganji · Post by **skganji** » 29 Apr 2013 22:18

aditya.agd wrote:Indian Govt silent. Is this part of a strategy?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 779893.cms

"This government is cowardly, incompetent and good for nothing". Even Mulayam Singh yadav, who is never seen aggressive, said this. MMS is a useless prime minister with no vision. Army , Navy and Air force are useless under this useless person and useless government.

Meanwhile, the chinese erected the 5th tent.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/329 ... -tent.html

400 Sq. Miles of area lost in Ladakh since 1980 shows how the Indian Government is fooling people of India just like how Nehru did in 1962. Shame Shame Shame. There is a story in Telugu, where in one battle , the chief ( Khadga Tikkanna) comes back home after being scared in the battle and immediately after he comes home, his wife prepares bangles, Turmeric for her husband . Out of shame , the chief Tikkannagoes back to the battle and gets killed in the battle and gets reputation ( Khadga Veera Tikkanna). Let us prepare bangles, turmeric for MMS and other top politicians who are doing nothing.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 30 Apr 2013 02:56

A chronicle of Chindu's Chinese propaganda articles:

1) Pass to better relations with China. @svaradarajan introduces this drivel with the tweet

Pass to better relations with China. Good proposal by VS Verma, scholar at ICS and ex-army man

2) Troops still camped, but China denies LAC crossing by Ananth Krishnan and Sandeep Dikshit. It has an interesting sub-title (which seems to be their Modus Operandi these days)

But New Delhi says that land where PLA put up a tent belongs to India

Oh oh - so "New Delhi" says this, reports The Chindu, the ever so neutral newspaper operating out of the UN Headquarters in New York City

3) Lesson from an unsettled boundary by Manoj Joshi. The sub-title at work again. For more puke, read the article in full

The reality is that the Line of Actual Control between India and China is notional and has not been put down on any mutually agreed map

@svaradarajan introduces the article with the tweet

Lesson from an unsettled boundary. Manoj Joshi on the backstory to the Ladakh standoff

4) Don’t get China wrong by Srinath Raghavan and @svaradarajan introduces the article with a tweet

Don’t get China wrong. The ever insightful Srinath Raghavan, ex-Army man turned academic, on the Ladakh incident

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 30 Apr 2013 04:58

Philip wrote:There is some merit in that China may be trying to divert attention and confine Indian mil. thought and doctrine to be a predominantly land based one.The IN is the most feared Indian armed force from all Chinese writings.However,the current gambit is not that simple.The loss of any territory,whether it is truly hospitable or valuable plants a stigma on the leadership of the loser,in the eyes of its people.Having suffered humiliation in '62,any further spat and loss of even a small patch of land ,without an equivalent destruction upon Chinese forces,would be unacceptable to the India people and the govt. of the day would have to resign.

So what is China actually upto? Some years ago,a prominent China watcher said that until it met resistance,China would continue a relentless policy of territorial expansion on land,sea,and space.This it has been doing in the Asia-Pacific region,the Indo-China Sea,in Tibet all along the Indo-Tibetan border and expansion of maritime facilities all over the IOR.It is not a coincidence that India is in the middle of all this "squeezing" of the Chinese fist.We have to seriously rethink our entire attitude towards China.Only a strong diplomatic,economic and military response will deter the Chinese ...for the time being.When they perceive India as being a weak nation,they will resume their aggression.We do need an increased strike force all along the Tibetan border (not Chinese,as we contest the Chinese claim to Tibet,it being a Buddhist nation and Buddhism began in India),one strike corps will not be enough,plus a 20-25% increase in the numerical strength of the IAF,along with the IN's naval expansion plans,a fleet of at least 6 SSBNs and 6-8 SSGNs,and a 3 carrier fleet,along with the req. amphib. capabilities.

PS:In this regional context,see how the "Empire is also planning to strike back!"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -Gulf.html

Britain may reverse East of Suez policy with return to military bases in Gulf
Britain plans to restore a permanent military presence in the Gulf, basing land, air and naval forces in the region, according to a defence think tank with close ties to the armed forces.

A simultaneous diplomatic offensive to coordinate the same with other threatened nations in the Asia-Pacific region should be undertaken to chart out a common method of dealing with Chinese aggression and expansionism.The easiest way to wound the dragon is a total boycott on Chinese goods and services.

1) Phillips, I agree regarding the importance of territorial issues to the Indian government. The proof is all too evident on this board, and unfortunately for India and as I pointed out in my post, the Chinese are taking full advantage of this fact. Too many people are too worked up over these rinky dink Chinese tactics, and losing sight of the far bigger picture.

2) Yes, you're right, China as an ascending power is seeking to expand in all directions. However, believe it or not, the Chinese are not so stupid as to antagonize all the regional powers. The Chinese government realizes that it cannot simply expand its direct control in all directions, and thus has, by 2011, settled all land border disputes except those with Bhutan and India. How did they do that? They settled EVERY SINGLE one of those dispute at a net LOSS of territory, except the dispute with Vietnam, which was settled at a 50-50 split. The Chinese focus is entirely on the seas, and the land dispute with Bhutan and India is only one part of that plan.

3) As to specifically what India has to do, I can't really speak on that. IMO, what India needs the most is clearer strategic vision. Maybe we can discuss this further later on.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Apr 2013 05:05

subhamoy.das wrote:Regarding supplies, the CHINESE are close to a the karakoram highway as if they came rolling down from it so supply should not be a problem. As aginst, India needs to air drop supplies.

Please look up the geography of the area on Wikimapia.

KK Highway is to west of LOC while PLA incursion is in eastern Ladakh. The PLA positions in eastern Ladakh have feeder roads from their Xinjiang-Tibet Highway. KK Highway does not figure in the equation on the ground.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Apr 2013 05:09

Prem Kumar wrote:<SNIP>

4) Don’t get China wrong by Srinath Raghavan and @svaradarajan introduces the article with a tweet
Don’t get China wrong. The ever insightful Srinath Raghavan, ex-Army man turned academic, on the Ladakh incident

This bugger is one of the biggest snake-oil salesman out there who uses his ex-IA credentials to pass off the BS he writes.

Has written article on Siachen in similar vein.