LCA News and Discussions

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 May 2013 08:02

,let's hope that the DRDO/HAL rise to the occcasion in the national interest.

What makes you think they have not done so, so far?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 May 2013 08:33

They have in other areas where perhaps there is far better management of the projects by project head,especially in our rocketry and missile R&D and production. But it would be absurd to imply that they have succeeded everywhere! An official figure of just 29% of achievement was given recently.I've continued to ask the Q,chalk up the successes and failures for obtaining a fair balance of the DRDO' achievements.

The LCA has taken over three decades gto reach this stage.Surely the GOI and the end-user have chewed long enough on their fingers waiting for this hugely extended period of conception!

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... 4034,d.bmk

The secret world of the DRDO

02-01-13,

India is at war. Tejas fighters wheel over a smoke dark battleground, taking down enemy aircraft with their superior radar and missile capabilities. Lower still, Indian-designed helicopters are giving hell to enemy armour and troop formations with missiles and machine-gun fire. On the ground, mighty Arjun tanks lumber slowly across dunes, sure of their impenetrable Kanchan armour even as they spew death through their 120 mm guns. Jawans crouch and advance with the tanks, firing three-round bursts from their INSAS rifles and lobbing bhut jholokia grenades at their foes. They are tireless, having imbibed performance-enhancing pills, and well-fed, having had spoil-proof parathas and self-heated packaged meals before battle.

This is what a DRDO dream looks like. However, a nightmare was revealed recently when Defence Minister A K Antony ordered the Comptroller General of Defence Audit (CGDA) to do a secret audit of India’s equivalent of the futuristic workshop of James Bond’s ‘Q’ — the Defence Research and Development Organisation that goes by the handle DRDO.

The highlights of the report are frightening. Here are some of them:

http://newindianexpress.com/magazine/article598145.ece

* DRDO has been developing equipment which is either sub-standard or have extended deadlines and additional budgets;

* Many of the projects have been sanctioned without the requisite government approval. Only 10 per cent of projects have come to the ministry for clearance;

* Corruption and nepotism exists in the upper echelons;

* There is an exodus of qualified scientists;

DRDO has challenged the findings but the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has taken cognisance of them. It will be ordering a review of the agency’s approval processes as well as that of the recent proposal to enhance the financial powers for DRDO chief V K Saraswat.

Waste products

Crores of rupees are spent on research that mostly flops

The CGDA audit findings raise serious questions on the capability of this defence outfit, which has an annual budget of Rs 10,500 crore. Established in 1958, it has a network of 52 laboratories nationwide, employing 5,000 scientists with about 25,000 support staff. But only 29 per cent of the products developed during the last 17 years are being used by the Armed Forces. The audit notes that in several cases, DRDO bought equipment from other companies after spending crores on R&D. For instance, the CGDA found that after spending two years and Rs 29.96 crore to develop satellite signal monitoring, DRDO ultimately bought the same from a public sector undertaking on a single tender basis for Rs 24.50 crore in April 2011. “If such technologies are indeed commercially available, where was the need of a development project by DRDO?” the audit asked. DRDO also spent Rs 6.85 crore to develop explosive detectors, which were offered to the army for Rs 30 lakh each. Foreign versions of these are available off the shelf for Rs 9.8 lakh per piece, a price that also includes repair and maintenance.

The CGDA report criticised the ‘joint development’ technology initiative of DRDO, calling it “import of older, foreign technology under the disguise of joint development.” The CGDA accused DRDO of promoting Israeli company M/S SCD without the mandatory formal transfer of technology agreement. Commenting on a DRDO deal to develop a higher format uncooled detector, the CGDA said: “DRDO shall be financing the development expenditure of `19.90 crore by releasing it direct to M/S SCD Israel. Basically, instead of doing development itself, DRDO is funding a foreign agency’s development effort, that too, without any explicit arrangements being finalised about ownership of intellectual property generated from such financing,” noted the CGDA. “Neither the production agency nor the users — mechanised forces of army — have been kept in the loop,” the CGDA report says.

With a chaotic record of arms experiments and eccentric choices of spending money on pickles and automated idli and dosa makers for aircraft carriers, the very reason for DRDO’s existence seems dubious. Says V K Mittal, a former senior scientist with the agency, “DRDO technology is almost two decades old. Two projects, namely Samyukta and Sangraha electronic warfare equipment, were partially inducted in the armed forces, but users felt these were outdated and more expensive than the latest technology available.” Meanwhile, the agency has developed many products that is meant for the soldier at the front: DRDO pickles made of semi-ripe berries and spices such as red chilli powder, cinnamon, cumin, cardamom, black pepper powder, and clovers, spicy potato parathas, instant kadhi mixes, cashewnut barfi, mutton vegetable korma, instant halwa mix, egg biscuits and instant upma mix are among its culinary achievements. The agency also successfully bred a region-specific hybrid goat using technology that mixed the genes of adaptive and meat traits through cross-breeding breeds such as Changthangi and Gaddi and Sirohi and Black Bengal goats. DRDO has also developed ‘Lukoskin’, a herbal care product for leucoderma and the performance enhancing drug Perfomax which is meant to “improve physical and mental performance in high altitude and hypoxic conditions.” In true 007 style, it has also developed a car coolant that will not freeze in extreme temperatures. The crores of rupees wasted in innumerable half-baked projects add up to quite a sum. In a separate report by CAG in 2011-12, the DRDO is criticised for spending crores on random research projects. In 2011, out of 55 high priority projects based on user-requirements, only thirteen went into production. A modular bridge, being developed for the army was shelved in 2010, after eight years of experiments and spending Rs 21.46 crore. Six months later, Rs 13.25 crore was sanctioned for another modular bridge project. The initiative to produce next generation laser weapons was closed down within a month after equipment was procured.

“We are dangerously behind our adversaries. China is far ahead in indigenous technology in both tanks and missiles sector. DRDO’s claim of modern technology is too old when it is delivered to armed forces. It is a big disappointment”, observes security analyst Major General (Retd) Afsir Karim.

Flop wonders

Institutions without qualifications are promoted

Defence minister Antony had asked the CGDA to investigate after receiving complaints on suspected manipulation in DRDO contracts, undue favor to some external vendors, and irregular appointments in the agency which runs a vast network across the country. Its annual budget has no audit verified document to show what value has been generated so far through its technologies. Under a very personal cloud is DRDO chief V K Saraswat. The CGDA has questioned why he granted Rs 2.88 crore to a mathematics institute to develop a futuristic radar when its scientists are not even remotely connected with research relating to the project. Incidentally, Saraswat is the president of the institute’s governing body. The audit also stated that the institute lacked expert manpower, and started recruitment only after getting DRDO funds that were released without due diligence. A Dehradun scientific lab was granted Rs 14 crore to develop a communication link, while the institute headed by Saraswat was also sanctioned Rs 2.98 crore to develop the same technology — it doesn’t have even basic facilities like computers for individual researchers. “It shows that the radar development project is being split in different parts to avoid going to the ministry and users with a proper full scope development programme,” the CGDA said. The DRDO understandably refutes the findings. “These are only observations. The laid down procedure of audit was not followed, and it was issued without authorisation. It is a one-sided report. We will give a point by point reply of audit findings. DRDO has achieved several milestones and that nobody is talking about, ” retorted Dr Ravi Gupta, DRDO’s official spokesperson. However, the CGDA report says that DRDO has tried to camouflage its failures in the name of secrecy and national security.

Says Commodore (Retd) Uday Bhaskar, former head of the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA), “The Government is not willing to discuss the Rama Rao committee report that talks about reforming DRDO. It shows that they are not serious about the decaying of a government institution, which in the last 30 to 40 years has completely disappointed the users. Money is being spent without any effect on indigenous programmes. I will appeal to Indian Parliament to take this matter and discuss the issue.”

Project black hole

DRDO has been spending fresh money on its own failed projects

The CGDA accuses the DRDO of functioning in a non-transparent manner. “There is no comprehensive database to find out the details of projects sanctioned for execution by the DRDO and how many has been declared as successful,” it said. Antony was also informed that DRDO has been operating as an authority unto itself, bypassing the MoD where many crucial expenses are involved: the agency comes under the ministry and its main objective is to develop a modern technology base and equip the defence forces with internationally competitive systems and weapons. During 2009-2010, DRDO sanctioned 702 projects costing above `50 lakh but only 102 research projects were referred to the ministry. The audit body also questioned the grounds on which DRDO authorities sanctioned new projects in the name of completing failed projects with questionable changes in scope to avoid ministry’s nod. For example, DRDO took up a project for development of counter mine flail (CMF) for T-72 tanks at a cost of `8 crore in December 2002. CMF is a device that creates a safe passage through a minefield by deliberately detonating land mines in front of the vehicle that it is mounted on. Army HQ revised the requirement in 2004, but DRDO continued with the old parameters and in 2008, the product failed tests. In spite of this, it was not closed and in February 2011, another new project costing Rs 49.85 crore was sanctioned for the same CMF project.

Armaments apart, the DRDO has been splurging 10 per cent of its annual budget on construction of offices and auditoriums. CGDA also indicted DRDO for unauthorised sanction of Rs 49.15 crore to develop a vehicle testing facility in Pune — mainly for civilian use — disregarding approval rules.

“There is a lack of transparency and accountability in the name of defence research. For decades, DRDO has been promising a lot to the armed forces but have failed to deliver. The top brass should be made accountable. Unless this happens, money will be squandered away on technologically outdated projects and the armed forces will be cheated,” says Mittal.

Meanwhile, there has been a huge exodus of scientists from the agency. Last year, 86 scientists took VRS. Says Gen Karim, “The functioning of DRDO is improper. In the next five years, the difference between our adversaries and us would be glaring. The MoD is not serious about reforming DRDO. A national blueprint is required for this.”

The swadeshi trap

Unplanned indigenisation leads to losses and aborted projects

In this situation, how efficacious are the agency’s multimillion-dollar projects? India purchases arms worth $6.9 billion from the US, making it America’s second largest defence client after the Saudis. The Congressional Research Service’s annual survey of global arms sales written by Richard Grimmett and Paul Kerr says India is fast upgrading its equipment from its Soviet-era arsenal. In late 1993, a committee headed by then Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister and DRDO chief APJ Abdul Kalam had set the goal of 70 per cent of indigenisation in weapons production by 2005; DRDO has not moved beyond the 30 per cent it had reached in 1995. The passion for swadeshi is the principle behind the money being spent by the Indian government on DRDO. But most of DRDO equipment malfunctions or the projects themselves are yet to take off or are delayed, sucking in more and more money.

Rifle recoil: The mass produced INSAS rifle, meant to be the main rifle for the Indian Army has been known to malfunction in extreme conditions. The first known debacle was on August 7, 2005. As the evening shadows grew longer at the Royal Nepal Army’s Pili camp in western Kalikot district, about 550 km northwest of capital Kathmandu, Maoist fighters massed silently outside. The roads connecting the camp that housed about 200 soldiers — mostly employed in the construction of a new highway — had been mined. A little before 6 pm, over 1,000 Maoists attacked the camp. Armed with INSAS rifles, the Nepalese soldiers fought back, but in vain. By 4 pm, the Maoists had captured 100 soldiers, and executed 40 of them. Nepal blamed INSAS malfunctions for the disaster: “The rifles are okay if you fight for an hour or two, but are not appropriate for long battles. If we had better weapons, our casualties would have been much less,” said a Nepal government spokesman. In November 2011, the Ministry of Defence issued a tender for 66,000 assault rifles to replace the INSAS. The MoD wanted the new rifles to be able to switch calibres between the small, high-velocity 5.56 mm rounds the INSAS fires and the devastatingly powerful 7.62 mm rounds of the older FAL rifles.

The story of this short-lived rifle epitomises the drift in the way the DRDO works, and also between it and the armed forces. The DRDO took a decade to design the INSAS. A few years later, it was supplied to the Army throughout the later half of the 1990s. But the Army did not put all its eggs in the desi basket; it bought 100,000 AK-47s from Bulgaria in 1995 for its frontline units in Kashmir. The INSAS began rolling off the lines soon after, at a cost several times that of the Kalashnikov. When war broke out in Kargil in 1999, INSASs jammed; the transparent polymer magazines cracked. Its ammunition-conserving three-round burst went virally fully automatic. An oil spray glitch was detected. By 2002, the Army had ordered the Israeli Tavor 21 rifle for its special forces and the Galil for its snipers. This year, the Special Forces will induct US-made M-4 rifles, the Vietnam-era M-16’s newer version that US soldiers now use in Afghanistan. “DRDO products are half imported and half prepared here, which is dangerous. Defence is too serious business to be left to one party. It is the user — our armed forces — who will decide which product is useful. DRDO cannot claim success of a product sitting in the workshop,” says Gen Karim.

Air disaster: In the early 1980s, the Indian Air Force was over-reliant on Soviet-made MiG-21s, which would be phased out, beginning in the mid-90s. In 1984, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), a national consortium of over 100 defence laboratories, industrial organisations, and academic institutions with HAL being the principal contractor, was created specifically to manage the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme. The DRDO was to develop the plane’s flight control system, hi-tech radar, and engine. DRDO delivered on the flight control system. However, the radar was the one that was to be developed by Ericsson and Ferranti Defence Systems Integration for the Gripen, a topline Swedish fighter plane. DRDO decided to develop the radar at home, and started in 1997. In 10 years, cost escalations, delays and other serious problems grounded the project, which is now being developed with help from the Elta group, an Israel Aerospace Industries subsidiary. Kaveri, the engine of the LCA — christened Tejas by former PM Atal Behari Vajpayee — was to be developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment, Bangalore using prototypes made by General Electrics, USA. By 2003, it had to be abandoned for an upgraded version of the GE engine used in the prototypes selected to power the first pre-production Tejas. The Kaveri had, in the meantime, failed high-altitude tests carried out in Russia, and by 2008, was officially declared unsuitable. GE was selected to provide 99 engines that were even better than the ones used in the first LCAs. Mysteriously, 15 actuators of the aircraft that were part of the LCA’s integrated flight control system went missing in December 2008 from Heathrow, London. The Tejas has flown, and well, but with an Israeli radar and American engine. The Kaveri programme alone cost the nation about Rs 2,800 crore over 23 years; the cost overrun of the entire LCA programme is estimated at about 3,000 per cent.

Tanked hopes: It took 35 years to make India’s main battle tank Arjun. In 1974, DRDO’s Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment at Chennai started designing the tank expected to be ready for war in 10 years. The Arjun was to weigh 40 tonnes with a 105 mm main gun. By the time it was finished in 2000, the tank had grown in size to 58.5 tonnes with a 120 mm gun that can fire rockets. In terms of cost overrun, the Arjun is the champion of delay and drift: it has cost 20 times the initial estimate to make an Indian tank with a German engine. It is so big that ordinary Indian rail wagons, the ones that have been transporting our older Soviet- and British-origin tanks had to be redesigned to accommodate its bulk. Military planners say bridges will collapse under Arjun’s weight. The Army and DRDO have been at loggerheads over the Arjun. Field tests have varied wildly: some have given the Arjun a junk rating, and others say it’s the best thing to have happened to the Armoured Corps. The tank is a ‘jugaad’ queen. South African howitzers have been mated to its chassis to make a self-propelled field gun that DRDO calls Bhima. The army will, at last, add to its ranks about 250-odd Arjuns, and 1,000 T-90s. The next Indian tank, the Futuristic MBT, may well come from a joint initiative with Russia.

As the MoD prepares to review DRDO’s financial procedures, the news is not all bad on the achievement front. Last week, the 350-km range surface-to-surface Prithvi II missile was successfully flight tested at the Integrated Test Range, Chandipur in Odissa. Saraswat, a multitude of rings embedded with various stones flashing on his fingers celebrated by feeding laddoos to the army commander present. However, the question for him is, after the ministry’s review, what’s for just desserts.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 30 May 2013 09:20

Says V K Mittal, a former senior scientist with the agency, “DRDO technology is almost two decades old. Two projects, namely Samyukta and Sangraha electronic warfare equipment, were partially inducted in the armed forces, but users felt these were outdated and more expensive than the latest technology available.”

First time I've read of this.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 30 May 2013 11:10

More expensive and a little outdated is fine as these are crucial technologies which others will not share with us.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 30 May 2013 14:09

reading that report was depressing.

is DRDO really that incompetent ?

scary.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 May 2013 18:20

The article The secret world of DRDO authored by Yatish Yadav and Nardeep Singh Dahiya, first appeared in the indian express in Sept of 2012. IE !!!!!

That article has its bias - naturally. DRDO is not close to being perfect, but needs to be made close to perfect. India just cannot afford to keep on relying on the Russians to supply her arms needs. I for one certainly hope that the FGFA is the very last major effort of its kind.

This cloud has a very bright silver lining. Actually the cloud too is not that dark. As some of us would have us believe.

For some solace: try this

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 30 May 2013 18:48

Philip wrote:Indian Express:30/5/13.

AKA ,"rapping the DRDO on its knuckles",tells the DRDO "Perform or perish"!

The LCA is given its IOC-2 date and this was final said AKA,"I am waiting for the LCA to become a reality".AKA asked the IAF,DRDO,HALto work together so that the final ~~IOC-2~~ FOC would be achieved by 2014 end.

I am not sure why we are so negative, even we can't quote information. Why the hell, we don't highlight what we have achieved in stead of highlighting what we could not achieve. And project it as failure.

Final Operational Clearance for LCA TEJAS Next Year: Antony

The Defence Minister Shri AK Antony today expressed optimism that the country’s indigenously developed fighter aircraft- LCA TEJAS- will get Final Operational Clearance of the Indian Air Force by the end of next year. Speaking at the Annual Awards Functions of DRDO here, he said, all stakeholders including the DRDO, IAF and HAL must put their energy together in a focused manner to achieve this objective.

Shri Antony said countries that depend on imported arsenals cannot become great nation. Shri Antony said we continue to be the largest importer of Defence equipment. The share of indigenous content in Defence procurement is low. “Our experience has been that foreign vendors are reluctant to part with critical technologies. There are delays in the supply of essential spares. There are exorbitant price increases. The Services too realize that we cannot be eternally dependent on foreign equipment and platforms”, he said.

Referring to the expansions of domestic defence industry, Shri Antony said this has to be achieved through public and private sector initiatives. He said there is ample scope for joint ventures also. “All the stakeholders in the defence sector- DRDO, Armed Forces and the industry must work in tandem and develop trust and confidence in each other’s capabilities.” Cautioning against time and cost over runs in projects Shri Antony said Indian Companies must compete with global players in developing state- of- the art technologies of acceptable commercial parameters and must meet customer satisfaction.

The Minister complimented DRDO for their magnificent achievements in 2012. He referred to the first flight of Agni-V, two successful tests of our Ballistic Missile Defence programme in February and November 2012, first flight of LCA Navy, establishment of a cyber-forensics laboratory, initiation of production of NBC systems, ToT for composite armour for helicopters and investment casting of aero engine components and said these are just some of the many accomplishments.

He, however, asked the scientists not to be complacent. “The DRDO must keep its focus trained on the areas of core competence and not fritter away its energy and resources. In today’s world of cut-throat competition, the choice is very clear-‘perform, or perish’. From designing stage to the stage of final production, timelines must be strictly adhered to and satisfaction of the end user is the litmus test of achievement”, he said.

He said, the security environment in our neighbourhood; civil strife and turmoil in the Middle East; terrorism and threats to cyber security; piracy; illegal seabed mining in Indian Ocean and space-based threats present complex challenges to our defence capabilities. These require both conventional, as well as latest technological responses.

Expressing happiness the Minister said, it is heartening to note that a large number of major systems are under production and the cumulative production value of all the DRDO developed systems has crossed Rs. 1,55,000 crore. ‘I am sure in the coming years, this figure will go even higher. DRDO must make relentless efforts to accelerate the pace of self- reliance’, he further said.

The function was attended among others by the Minister of State for Defence, Shri Jitendra Singh, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral DK Joshi and Director General DRDO Dr. VK Saraswat.

On the occasion, Shri Antony gave away DRDO Awards to several scientists, technologists and DRDO laboratories in fourteen categories for their outstanding contributions in different areas.

N Ao/DM/RK
(Release ID :96297)

Media does not highlight it that bad and corrupt DRDO organization has several excellent scientists, technologists and laboratories which get awards ...

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 30 May 2013 19:22

Light combat aircraft trials of Navy soon, but no pilots.

It seems India needs the support of US Navy to complete crucial trials of the naval version of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-N). Absence of pilots experienced in carrier-based operations has forced the Aeronautical Development Agency ( ADA), lead partner in the development of LCA-N, to request the US Navy to train its test pilots in catapult assisted take-off and barrier arrested recovery (Catobar).

None of the naval pilots, after the generation who flew Alizes on INS Vikrant, have any experience in Catobar. With this lacuna adding to its carrier woes, the Navy is training a batch of young pilots in US to prepare them to handle MiG29Ks. But the request to train test pilots further exposes c hinks in India's defence preparedness. The help has been sought to complete their training before the year-end with a view to carrying out take-off and landing trials on the ski-jump installed at INA Hansa, Goa.

"The aircraft still weighs some 500 kg more than the desired weight. Feedback from each trial is helping us plane it further. Its performance has been steady. But it is the Catobar trials that finally give a thumbs-up to any naval aircraft," a top DRDO source told TOI.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 30 May 2013 19:56

^^^ DDM at its *best*

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 30 May 2013 20:23

Why are people cribbing that LCA is healthy

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 30 May 2013 20:50

LCA Flight test update

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 2174 Test Flights Successfully. (25-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-132,LSP4-76,LSP5-172,LSP7-37,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2178 Test Flights Successfully. (28-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-132,LSP4-79,LSP5-172,LSP7-37,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 May 2013 20:55

Vipul,others,was it not over two years ago that we were told that IN pilots would be going to the US to train there? How can we suddenly say that there are no pilots versed in carrier capability! If it is true,then there has been an awful cock-up involving the IN primarily.

Now,what about this! We have already sent our pilots to the US for carrier training,in this report as far back as er....2008!

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2008/10/pho ... rrier.html

The above photos show Indian Navy pilots being trained in conventional take-off carrier operations at the US Navy’s Naval Air Training Command at Naval Air Station Kingsville, and other institutes, part of an elite Indian Navy strike-pilot programme that commenced in 2006 to train 32 Indian Navy pilots in batches of four every six months over a period of four years.

The Indian pilots follow an identical training trajectory followed by counterpart pilot cadets in the US Navy. The course begins with six weeks of hardcore aviation preflight indoctrination at the Naval Air Station Pensacola, Florida. This includes four weeks of theory, swimming instruction and practice, plus two weeks of flight physiology and survival training.

From Pensacola, the Indian pilots move to Naval Air Station Whiting Field, also in Florida, for 18 weeks of flying Beechcraft T-34 Mentor single turboprop trainers. After this, the pilots move to Naval Air Station Kingsville in Texas to begin the real stuff -- flying jets. But first, there's three months at Kingsville just for classroom and simulator preparation. After weeks of flying the glass-cockpit simulator, the pilots finally strap into a T-45 Goshawk. But for the first two weeks, they're made to fly blind -- called "flying under a blanket" or instrument hood. Learn to trust your instruments more than anything else, that's the point. This completes Phase 1 of the six months course.

Phase 2 will be the real juice they're there for. Weeks upon weeks of tactical combat formation, air combat manoeuvering and air-to-ground weapons delivery. Finally, the real meatball! Training finally ends with a trial by fire -- flight qualification on board an American aircraft carrier. But he's got to perform consistently and deliver immaculate landings on a regular basis to finally get carrier qualified to fly MiG-29Ks and LCA Navy off the INS Vikramaditya and Indigenous Aircraft Carrier.

The first Indian Navy pilot to be carrier qualified (CQ) was Captain Surendra Ahuja, who trapped his T-45C ten times successfully on the USS Enterprise in May 2007. Thus began the Indian Navy's tryst, with tailhook aviation after a lengthy hiatus, and one that will continue long into the future.

Going back to the report there seems to be some light as to the controversy.There is an absence of "test pilots".Now who do these test pilots come under? ADA/HAL? If so,then it is not the In that is responsible for the absence of test pilots,but the DRDO/HAL.

titash · Post by **titash** » 30 May 2013 21:24

Vipul wrote:Light combat aircraft trials of Navy soon, but no pilots.

It seems India needs the support of US Navy to complete crucial trials of the naval version of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-N). Absence of pilots experienced in carrier-based operations has forced the Aeronautical Development Agency ( ADA), lead partner in the development of LCA-N, to request the US Navy to train its test pilots in catapult assisted take-off and barrier arrested recovery (Catobar).

None of the naval pilots, after the generation who flew Alizes on INS Vikrant, have any experience in Catobar. With this lacuna adding to its carrier woes, the Navy is training a batch of young pilots in US to prepare them to handle MiG29Ks. But the request to train test pilots further exposes c hinks in India's defence preparedness. The help has been sought to complete their training before the year-end with a view to carrying out take-off and landing trials on the ski-jump installed at INA Hansa, Goa.

"The aircraft still weighs some 500 kg more than the desired weight. Feedback from each trial is helping us plane it further. Its performance has been steady. But it is the Catobar trials that finally give a thumbs-up to any naval aircraft," a top DRDO source told TOI.

I thought the VikAd and Vikrant were STOBAR carriers as opposed to CATOBAR like the article says

Since we went the V/STOL route since 1980, our pilots can take off using ski jumps, but naturally our arrested landing skills have degraded. The USA and Russia both have significant and continued experience in this field, and it makes sense to get some training. Maybe there's been a few scheduling issues, but the article seem needlessly alarmist...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 May 2013 21:29

The agreement, with the USN, was signed somewhere around the end of 2005 !!!! Naval pilots have been to TX and perhaps FL and got their training by now.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 30 May 2013 21:56

Philip wrote:The secret world of the DRDO

Same old whining regarding DRDO and news manipulation here,

AK Antony hits out at DRDO for delays in strategic projects

"Do not think that I am criticising you, I am with you in all times but as the Minister of Defence, it is my duty to say some things to you," he said.

Cautioning against the dependence on imports for military hardware requirements of the armed forces, he said, "Countries depending on imports can never be great nations."

He said however close a friendly nation may be, it will not pass on the latest state-of-the-art technologies in defence sector and the only answer was to increase indigenisation.

V.K.Saraswat,

He expressed happiness over the fact that "a large number of major systems are under production and the cumulative production value of all the DRDO developed systems has crossed Rs 1,55,000 crore".

All from the same article so YAWN only again !!!!!

Neshant wrote:reading that report was depressing.

is DRDO really that incompetent ?

scary.

A lot of people have gone to there graves painting doom and gloom scenario of Bharat and a lot more will continue to go there doing the same but Bharat is here to stay and will keep moving forward onlee.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 May 2013 09:28

AKA has been clear and concise in his statement.he has called a spade a spade.I don't see where there is any "media manipulation".

We have to face upto our difficulties and shortcomings and once acknowledge them,start to rectify them.The problem is that the DRDO has had no accountability thus far.Not one senior head of project has been ticked off or sacked for failure unlike what happens in other countries esp. Russia.With the LCA,the "chain has been as strong as its weakest link",as a former VC told me,the "engine".The kaveri fiasco is the key reason why the LCA is delayed,with MK-1 reluctantly being accepted by the IAF and with great hopes for MK-2 succeeding.

For the first time ever,the GOI seems to be taking some sort of stand by not giving DRDO chief.Dr.Saraswat an extension.He has had an excellent track record of success,but there was some controversy about expenditure that a chief could authorise,etc.It appears to be a case of nitpicking. The true reason may be thus-that he has developed Agni-6 ,a far more capable missile than Agni-5,which has alarmed the US,which wants to cap India's ballistic missiles below the capability of reaching the US mainland. In the aftermath of P-2,a well-known defence expert who cannot be named,told me that the US had given a clear warning to India NOT to develop any missiles with a range of beyond 5000km.That was more than a decade ago. The future of Agni-6 is going to be interesting.Let's see where the GOI stands on the matter.

Ramu · Post by **Ramu** » 31 May 2013 14:18

Well, perception is a strange prism. It paints pink or blue to a picture depending on the angle you are looking from.

MK-1 reluctantly being accepted by the IAF and with great hopes for MK-2 succeeding

If we didn't like MK1 that we had in hand yesterday, we won't like MK1a that we have today.
If we don't like MK1a that we have in hand today, we won't like MK2 when it comes to our hand tomorrow.
and so on and so forth.

This is a trade mark SDRE perception syndrome.

The root cause of every indigenous bashing is due to our SDRE syndrome.
Things we make, doesn't look shiny enough compared to whats in the market from select few 5-6 countries and it never will, in this spectrum.

Now lets add this fact to our perception - there are 200+ other countries that don't even know how to make aircraft doors.

When you start to compare with 200 others that don't have what we have, voila we have a TFTA syndrome.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jun 2013 10:19

Sanctions led to delay in LCA project: DRDO chief

NEW DELHI: Facing flak for time slippages in Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas programme, DRDO chief V K Saraswat today attributed the delay to "setbacks" caused by international sanctions and inadequate development of aerospace industry in the country.

Saraswat, who retired today, contended that the DRDO had to start from the "scratch" to indigenously develop the fighter aircraft as the manufacturing base in the country was non-existent. He said these issues have now been addressed to a large extent and other versions of the combat aircraft can be developed in a short time.

"We had to go through the rigours of development from the scratch where we had to develop the whole range of products. This is not a problem in foreign countries where everything is available whereas we had to develop everything," he told PTI in an interview here.

The DRDO chief said this when asked to explain the delay in the LCA programme which has not fructified even nearly three decades after it was initiated. His comments came two days after Defence Minister A K Antony criticised the "time slippages" in the project.

Saraswat noted that the project to develop a Light Combat Aircraft was initiated in early 1980s but soon after Missile Transfer Control Regime (MTCR) came into effect in 1988.

"All suppliers cancelled their agreements and European firms also stopped cooperation. When such a situation occurred, we had to do everything ourselves. This was a major setback," said Saraswat, who also held the post of Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister. This situation continued from 1980 till 2000 when the first aircraft was rolled out, he said. "Time was taken to overcome the blocks created by MTCR. This is the reason for the longer time taken," he said.

The DRDO chief said LCA was the first programme wherein a fighter plane had to be completely designed and developed indigenously in the country, a departure from the practice of manufacturing fighters of other countries under licence. "We did not have any industrial base for avionics, for material. When we wanted to do LCA, there was a lacuna in the whole system," Saraswat said.

He said this was because indigenous development of a fighter aircraft was never under consideration till 1980 and as a result of which the manufacturing base could not be created unlike other countries.

Saraswat noted the policy pursued till then was to buy fighters off the shelf or manufacture them under licence from countries like USSR. After the collapse of USSR, India faced tremendous problems in getting spare parts.

Talking about the LCA project, he said, "We have built all the systems for the LCA today but that resulted in extra money and extra time. That is not the inefficiency of the scientists or the management failure. It is basically bridging the technology gap and learning how large systems are done."

He said the DRDO and the HAL have addressed a number of problems found in the aircraft during its Initial Operational Clearance-I at Bangalore in 2001 and expressed hope that the aircraft would get its IOC-II by the end of this year.

The LCA is expected to cost around Rs 200 crore per piece, which will still be much less than a foreign fighter of the same class, Saraswat said.

He said a big push was given under his tenure for the large scale production of the aircraft at the HAL facilities in Bangalore.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 01 Jun 2013 11:45

Philip wrote:AKA has been clear and concise in his statement.he has called a spade a spade.I don't see where there is any "media manipulation".

Yes A.K has clearly mentioned that he is not criticising DRDO but the headline say's him "hitting out" at DRDO. There lies the manipulation.

Philip wrote:The problem is that the DRDO has had no accountability thus far.Not one senior head of project has been ticked off or sacked for failure unlike what happens in other countries esp. Russia.With the LCA,the "chain has been as strong as its weakest link",as a former VC told me,the "engine".The kaveri fiasco is the key reason why the LCA is delayed,with MK-1 reluctantly being accepted by the IAF and with great hopes for MK-2 succeeding.

DRDO is very much accountable as it faces audit rap and the scientists have to appear before a promotion board where you can only hope for a success if you have successful projects/R&D/product to show them otherwise goodbye promotion. Project review meetings are held from time to time by the director of the lab and where you have to show the progress made by you in the project otherwise hear an earful. Oh and getting into the bad books of the director doesn't help with your promotions as well. So all in all I think DRDO is much more accountable than many other government establishments.

Sacking off the head of the project doesn't mean that the project won't face technical challenges or delays. Your Russians even after all the sacking and culling have delayed projects and quality control issues so your "sack theory" for better results doesn't hold much water when the actual ground reality is looked at. The Kaveri fiasco is due to the lack of technical capability and the inexperience in project management of this size and complexity but can you tell me why did IAF waited till 2006 to get involved in the project ??? A project of this much national spread and importance should have been supported by them from day one no ???

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 01 Jun 2013 12:20

I don't mind the delay so long as it is inducted and produced in large numbers.

This should not be another Arjun debacle.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Jun 2013 13:23

No problem! However,the bulk of weaponry in the armed forces is of R*****n origin,perhaps as much as 70%,so I don't see how one can completely rule out a reference to the country of origin.The case in Q is that particularly of the Bulava missile,where a celebrated missile designer ,who had got the equiv. of our highest Padma awards,was reluctantly sacked after very erratic tests of the missile.Even in the west,there is a limit as to how much failure can be tolerated in an age of economic recession,where extreme cost escalation sees intense criticism and culling of projects from Congress,parliament,etc.,in western democracies.Have you heard of any meaningful debate in the house about the delays in our key desi defence projects? It has been sweep the dust,delay and cost overruns under the carpet all the way. Keeping your boss happy,etc. is NOT the equivalent of an MOD audit of performance,it is internal politics,even though many a time the CAG has given the facts of the matter to the govt. revealing the status of the project and reasons for any delays and cost overruns.

The grim news today is that our GDP has fallen to just 5%,the lowest in the last 10 years.there is a run on the rupee with huge dollar requirements ,officially due to petro imports,defence imports and the insatiable appetite for gold from the Indian consumer,where in the first quarter this year,50% of the entire qty. of last year has been imported! Therefore,the urgent focus on projects long delayed like the LCA,which Avinash Chander ,the new head of the DRDO,has said will be his top priority. I think that over the last 4-5 years now,I have given enough inside info as to why the project suffered,due to the DRDO keeping the IAF out of the loop for years and resisting the appointment of a "hire and fire head" of project,repeatedly selected by committe after committee,including the PMO,time and time again.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 01 Jun 2013 14:40

In a thread made for the discussion of an indigenous system only people with the intent of derailing it will bring up references of a country which has nothing to do with it. IIRC the chief designer of Bulava had blamed the multiple failures on the poor quality of Russian manufactured sub systems and in the west as well we can see the same "quality" issue regarding their latest fighter programs, even after all the sacking their fighter project is still delayed. We must also not forget that the Russians and the west both have tremendous experience as well as a developed MIC but still they face the same issues which our poorly developed MIC has.

Whether any discussion regarding delays in our defence projects has happened in parliament or not will depend upon the quality of the people selected as our representatives and looking at the quality I don't have high hopes for the same happening in the near future. Keeping the boss happy is not just due to internal politics but also due to the fact that your boss has to answer to his boss sitting in the HQ who in turn answers to his boss in MoD. So if you don't deliver, your boss won't be able to show progress to his boss who in turn would be disappointing his boss and then the earful given by MoD will ultimately reach you after passing through all the bosses. It's all interlinked you see.

Still nobody from the IAF is the head of the LCA project but yet it is near to induction so instead of coming up with excuses like "not being part since wasn't made the head" doesn't sound very convincing. The LCA navy program is running as well without anybody from the navy being the head of the project but match there enthusiasm and support for the program with that of the IAF.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Jun 2013 16:03

Philip wrote:Vipul,others,was it not over two years ago that we were told that IN pilots would be going to the US to train there? How can we suddenly say that there are no pilots versed in carrier capability! If it is true,then there has been an awful cock-up involving the IN primarily.

Now,what about this! We have already sent our pilots to the US for carrier training,in this report as far back as er....2008!

Those were pilots for operational squadrons of the IN. This is specifically related to Test Pilots deputed to the N-LCA. None have flown CATOBAR missions.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 01 Jun 2013 20:26

It's interesting that Avinash Chander and A.K. Antony are speaking with the same tone regarding the Tejas project. There must be something going on.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2013/06/i ... -drdo.html

“After finishing the taking over formalities, I am catching the first available flight to Bangalore to review the project. I am absolutely aware of the issues that are dogging the project and I would now want to see it from close quarters, what the delays are. The Tejas' IOC and FOC cannot be postponed any further,” said Avinash, who will also double up as the Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Jun 2013 20:32

Avarachan wrote:It's interesting that Avinash Chander and A.K. Antony are speaking with the same tone regarding the Tejas project. There must be something going on.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2013/06/i ... -drdo.html

“After finishing the taking over formalities, I am catching the first available flight to Bangalore to review the project. I am absolutely aware of the issues that are dogging the project and I would now want to see it from close quarters, what the delays are. The Tejas' IOC and FOC cannot be postponed any further,” said Avinash, who will also double up as the Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister.

Yeah, the financier now seems to be serious, very serious, about the dates.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Jun 2013 22:08

IAF on acquisition spree for modernisation

Browne said the negotiations went off 'smoothly' for acquiring the Medium Multi Role Aircraft (MMRC) and the deal is expected to be finalised by September or October this year. He also said by the end of next year the IAF would have the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jun 2013 00:26

Neshant wrote:I don't mind the delay so long as it is inducted and produced in large numbers.

This should not be another Arjun debacle.

If Arjun is already debacle, then LCA was a debacle a decade ago itself. DDM and firgangie folks have won!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Jun 2013 04:22

Kartik,why didn't the test pilots also go to the US at the same time as the IN pilots? Didn't the DRDO/ADA/HAL realise that they would need naval LCA test pilots? It seems absurd that they could ignore such a fundamental requirement for the programme.Perhaps there are some answers in the article given below in a recent issue of VAYU.

AM Brijesh Jayal,writing in the VAYU 2/13 issue,"Innovative action not platitudes",had some pertinent points to make in a review of the entire effort to indigenise our aviation industry.Briefly speaking they are as follows:

1.The 2005 accord with the US Defence Framework Relationship,was meant to provide us with access to US defence products and "defence industrial partnership",long wanted by the IAF,to boost aeronautics both in tech and industrial terms.However,apart from some FMS sales,"there is no visible advantage for strengthening our aeronautics R&D or industry".

2.The new DPP mantra binds both foreign and desi partnerships,etc., "within the govt. approved framework"...
"Self reliance in the field of defence production has been a much heralded mantra for decades now and is not new.The problem is that we have no strategy,or plan,or indeed organisation to achieve this very challenging vision." This new policy has done nothing to "bridge the gap".Instead,the periodic issue of policy has become an end in itself and is hailed as "progress"! The foll. examples are given.

3.Along with the RFP for the MMRCA,"no effort was made with Indian industry neither public or private,to prepare for 50% offsets required by foreign manufacturers.Nor was there any strategising or prioritising our of technologies from contesting parties that would best meet our strategic or techno needs and hence be given due weightage." These are very complex issues and the existing MOD acquisition structure cannot achieve them."A mission oriented management organisation" is best suited for this task,otherwise this single weakness could become the Achilles heel of a programme like the MMRCA aimed at improving our self-reliance.

4.Private vs public competition in production.The DRDO will have a say in approving pvt. sector proposals,which will be a conflict of interest.Now in the Rafale programme,Dassault had asked the MOD to spell out what role HAL was to play in production,and that they wanted the freedom to allocate work to be given to HAL.He says that this exemplifies the "wide gap" that exists between the MOD's procurement policies and the "absence of sound organisational and institutional framework on the ground,to assist in their fruition,on the other."

Consternation after leaks of US embassy cables after a visit of a US ambassador to HAL in Feb 2010,where he said that he was surprised at the lack of "automation and safety" at the HAL plant and cautioned his govt, that despite much progress between India and the US ,US firms needed to understand the "management and technological experience of Indian firms".He said that "Cost,schedules and quality will remain key challenges for any company engaging in joint production ventures".

5.HAL's serious difficulties in graduating to production standard from prototype and LSP models.The ADA director "who runs the LCA programme" under the DRDO admitting that "no one realised that setting up a production line was an advanced technology in itself.."
"ADA and HAL have realised that creating a production line requires major effort..that realisation has come" (in 2013!).

(It has taken the DRDO and HAL 3 decades to realise this? This is why my VC said that for long,the programme was a "fraud upon the nation" and told APJAK to his face this fact,APJAK also making his famous statement that between 2003 to 2011 we would build "200 LCAs "! )

6.On the eve of Putin's last visit,the media wrote about Russia bagging 25,000 cr. worth of def. orders,reasserting itself as our largest supplier,with Israel,France and the US "snapping at its heels".Another headline,"Russian cloud over defence self reliance".What emerges is that foreign suppliers scarcely believe in our self-reliance mantra and that of the indigenous pvt. industry that dares to venture into modern aircraft manufacturing that the US ambassador spoke of.One drawback why Indian pvt. industry has not been too enthusiastic or successful is that only 26% FDI is allowed in a field where expensive technology is the driver.

7.We've made many recent acquisitions from many foreign cos.,our relationship with Russia is now not a mere buyer-seller one but involves JVs, like the FGFA,MTA,etc., but this throws up huge logistic,training and engineering challenges for the IAF and a poor substitute for sound operational logistics and resource management".Has the aim of the IAF in reducing types also being effected by this?

8.This approach is driven by the "lowest cost and user requirement",and does not make Indian aeronautical industry strong and internationally competitive.Industry saddled with multiple source acquisition.DPP 2011,"Service HQs while while laying down QRs...will exercise due diligence in view of feasibility and practicability of the QRs".But the DPP fails to address how this can be achieved without a management structure in place!

The realisation is only now setting in that while we have invested heavily in the aviation industry,what remains missing is the lack of management ethos of the pvt. sector and a national aeronautics policy and organisational framework that is so critical for a modern aerospace power."The IAF which has long suffered at the hands of industry being run as a govt. dept. must feel somewhat vindicated at this belated realisation".

9.A National Aeronautics Policy. The govt. should adopt an NAP,institue a "Dept. of Aeronautics",and an "Aeronautics Commission",all earlier suggested by the ASI when APJAK was president way back in 1994,updated in 2004,drawing upon the success of the two high-tech areas of Atomic Energy and Space.

Research should be delinked from weapons production.The ADA should either merge with HAL or be privatised.
As tech advances,costs rise higher.Intl partnerships are becoming the norm.
(As we are seeing with our Russian ventures).FDI must be raised to 74% from 26% for any meaningful participation is expected. (This might be hotly debated in giving foreign entities a stranglehold on India's defence industry).
Funding should be generous and come under the purview of the "Aeronautics Commission".Educating the govt. and public through the belated setting up of the "Natl. Defence University".

The restructuring and reorganisation of the industry in our unique ,requiring conditions is essential "bold leadership and paradigm change".

From the above article one can see that a complete overhaul of the manner in which we have been treating the aviation industry with an ad-hoc attitude is required for concrete results to appear in our goal of 75% indigenisation which our new DRDO chief has set as his goal.Frankly speaking,in his three-yr. term,this is not going to be achieved,but one hopes that a new approach will be made by him with much progress in reducing the %age .With elections round the corner,and a new govt. to appear within a year's time,he has to act fast and not get caught up in the bog of transition.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 02 Jun 2013 15:13

Isn't it ironic that DRDO and goverment agencies do better for products which cannot be sold to us ( missiles, nuke bombs..). China seems to do better in defense because no one is willing to sell to them the goodies after Tianneman. They cannot depend on Russia given the ups and downs of their relationship.

It takes determination and perseverance to build a strong military defense manufacturing complex....all hallmarks of strong leadership. LCA, Arjun...these are Symptons of the disease. Treating them instead of the disease is going to cause a lot of frustration folks.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 02 Jun 2013 20:17

^^ Apparently it also takes an autocratic state with no freedom of press to "succeed" because nobody questions to credibility of home-made products or their efficacy as they do in India.

Nobody is questioning the Chinese about their J-10, its efficacy or its reliability even when J-10s fall out of the sky. Nobody questions the presumption of the Chinese military industrial complex in pursuing the J-20 project when they have yet to perfect the J-10 or develop a credible turbofan that doesn't quit half way. Yet, India is the "failure" where projects "languish" for decades and everybody from janitor to general moans and gripes!

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 02 Jun 2013 21:59

Avarachan wrote:It's interesting that Avinash Chander and A.K. Antony are speaking with the same tone regarding the Tejas project. There must be something going on.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2013/06/i ... -drdo.html

“After finishing the taking over formalities, I am catching the first available flight to Bangalore to review the project. I am absolutely aware of the issues that are dogging the project and I would now want to see it from close quarters, what the delays are. The Tejas' IOC and FOC cannot be postponed any further,” said Avinash, who will also double up as the Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister.

Well you cant complain about it. Finally every one is damn serious about the project which means something meaningful will come out of it. LCA has always been dogged with bad Project Management other than the technical and sanction related issues they faced. If the PM gets corrected then things will streamline automatically.

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Jun 2013 07:18

Philip wrote:Kartik,why didn't the test pilots also go to the US at the same time as the IN pilots? Didn't the DRDO/ADA/HAL realise that they would need naval LCA test pilots? It seems absurd that they could ignore such a fundamental requirement for the programme...
...

Probably prior to the HANSA test facility and NLCA being ready for CATOBAR testing, it may had been too early to send the test pilots for the training in the US. Based on the current schedules of HANSA being operational in the next few months or by early next year and NLCA having completed its landing gear redesign, getting the test pilots through the 6 months course now is more ideal. Probably around 4 test pilots will be sent in batches of 2 each. After that both the operational and the test pilots could be trained in India itself. There will be all the facilities required and enough experienced trainers along with a complete curriculum.

I would think the batches of IN pilots who underwent training in the US will need refresher course since they haven't had an aircraft carrier or land facilities to practice. Their training were between 2006 and 2010, which means they haven't carrier landed for around 7 years (first batch) to 3 years (last batch) ago.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Jun 2013 09:28

Has the Hansa facility been made operational? If so the pilots could train their deck landings at it,but there's nothing like practising landings on a pitching deck in rough weather.

Report that Russian subs will now make "southern ocean" patrols after decades.This is going to increase the complexity of the naval balance of power in the future.These will also be the very waters that IN SSBNs will be patrolling,once our ICBMs have the required range to reach China from the Antarctic.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/06/02 ... rn-waters/
Russia subs with nuclear ballistic missiles to sail southern waters: Official

By 2018 Russia will receive 8 Borei class SSBNs ,which will be the core of its strategic SSBN fleet,and the frist of 7 multi-purpose Yasen class SSGNs will start patrols later this year.It indicates a remarkable turnaround in Russian nuclear sub building capability since the fall of the USSR.

In like manner should we too put our priority and extensive effort and focus into indigenous nuclear sub construction,so that we possess a formidable SSBN and SSGN fleet within a decade.

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 03 Jun 2013 09:38

Why is CATOBAR training needed for NLCA pilots currently? IAC is a STOBAR, isn't it? CATOBAR is not a current requirement.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Jun 2013 16:50

Philip wrote:Kartik,why didn't the test pilots also go to the US at the same time as the IN pilots? Didn't the DRDO/ADA/HAL realise that they would need naval LCA test pilots? It seems absurd that they could ignore such a fundamental requirement for the programme.

What would they have done with their arrested recovery landing skills till the N-LCA was near such testing? Srai has probably hit the nail on the head- that it would have probably required refresher courses anyway, since they'd have trained several years ago and their carrier landing skills wouldn't be fresh.

Your question has merit only if there is a delay introduced due to the TP's having to undergo CATOBAR landing training. If there is no such delay introduced, then how does it matter when they went for training? The closer it is to the actual testing time, the better- their skills will be fresher.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Jun 2013 16:51

ranji wrote:Why is CATOBAR training needed for NLCA pilots currently? IAC is a STOBAR, isn't it? CATOBAR is not a current requirement.

Its not CATOBAR training that's required- its the training for arrested recovery that they need. Currently they could go to Russia and get STOBAR training and it would suffice, but I suspect that based on the experience that naval aviators that trained in the US had, the IN believes that the US is a good option.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 03 Jun 2013 17:11

Time to flight update

From
LCA-Tejas has completed 2178 Test Flights Successfully. (28-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-132,LSP4-79,LSP5-172,LSP7-37,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

to
LCA-Tejas has completed 2182 Test Flights Successfully. (31-May-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-133,LSP4-80,LSP5-173,LSP7-38,NP1-4,LSP8-4)

Nice to see 4 different planes in actions.

nits · Post by **nits** » 03 Jun 2013 17:31

^^ just want to understand the above pattern... if all future developments will be carried on LSP8; does flight test of other variants are done for specific purpose or to test different parameters ?

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 03 Jun 2013 17:51

KrishnaK wrote:
Says V K Mittal, a former senior scientist with the agency, “DRDO technology is almost two decades old. Two projects, namely Samyukta and Sangraha electronic warfare equipment, were partially inducted in the armed forces, but users felt these were outdated and more expensive than the latest technology available.”
First time I've read of this.

That's because you've been swallowing all the arguments that the HAL/DRDO apologists, including a delusional forum moderator (perhaps now ex?) have been making on this and other forums about how the LCA and other DRDO/HAL projects were within budget and not excessively delayed and were competitive performance wise.

Whenever an opinion to the contrary, no matter how tentatively, was expressed, he and others like him, took great pleasure in shouting the poster down and deriding his opinion, till many of us quit posting, kept our opinions to ourselves and merely "lurked" on the forum.
Looks like the worms are starting to crawl out from under the barrel?
Having said that - No doubt there are shining examples of success - LCH, Dhruv and others.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Jun 2013 17:55

Surely,there must've been some dates and schedules planned,which any way are all being revised in the light of the delays.You just can't send them off one fine day as if booking a hotel room! One will now have to plan for their training in sync with the revised dates of the NLCAS's arrival.,which is when? Secondly,how many NLCA prototypes are being envisaged,LSPs,before production starts approx. when? Are these schedules openly available?

Funny,few comments about AM Brijesh's article in VAYU about the structural problems affecting our aviation industry.