Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 18 Jun 2013 14:12

^^Sanku saar this taking everyone along is a 'motherhood and apple pie' statement like they back in massaland. Sounds great in theory but the devil lies in the details. If its just a case of everyone and everything then why theneed for Modi at all, if not for the uniquely individual traits he has shown that have proven matchwinners in the past?

What if there's a repeat of the Jaswant Singh Jr situ in Rajasthan - and resultant infighting that effectively cost Raje the Govt in the 2008 polls? End of the day, there needs to be guidelines and rules of the game which are clear at the outset only, and common knowledge that since the blame will fall on Modi for poll defeat, the authority to decide and act should also rest more with him than be diffuse throughout the org.

I know, what do I know only. JMTPs and all that.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Jun 2013 15:12

Hari Seldon wrote:If its just a case of everyone and everything then why theneed for Modi at all, if not for the uniquely individual traits he has shown that have proven matchwinners in the past?

Hari-ji; times create a man, if not NaMo it would have to be some one else. Nature abhors vacuum. It just so happens that NaMo is filling that vacuum right now.

It has fallen on him at the current time to shoulder the burden, and the times have thrown him up, however the causes are bigger than a person and they find their own person in time.

This is no way devalues Modi, in fact Modi could not be Modi if he was not part of the larger cause, the only thing is that Modi fans need to realize the overall linkages.

since the blame will fall on Modi for poll defeat, the authority to decide and act should also rest more with him than be diffuse throughout the org.

Well Modi can not as a single person make miracles, yes, people tend to blame or raise a single person, but in reality the whole thing has to come together, and no human, or even god is going to do it together.

BJP victory will depend on the efforts and each and every one, including voters, and there will be infighting and these will have to be straightened out, some of which will happen and some will not. The whole thing about leadership is that you take responsibility for the large team when YOU CANT micromanage it and have to use methods without micromanagement to run the show. You end up taking responsibilities for others failures -- and only sometimes get rewarded for others work (of course you can be chacha jan and cleverly blame your failures on others and usurp their success, but thats different)

Micromanagement is simply impossible and even in cases where it is possible, it is shown to fail. (This is different from eye to details)

I am sure Modi knows it, because it is clear from his actions and utterances, and that is why I root for the man, and not because he will magically clone himself into a 10000000000000 copies and kick out everyone from Advani, to Raman Singh, to Sushil Modi to Vijay Goel and do everything single handedly through his mind melded clones.

I raise this because the above is precisely what people are asking for in this thread, over and over.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 18 Jun 2013 15:15

Sanku wrote: If so I disagree, Modi is very straightforward, he will not cross his value systems and pretend, and in this case he has no need to since they people concerned are all cut from the same cloth.

Sanku ji, Its my impression as well that he is a straightforward kind of person -and that is definitely part of his appeal. At the same time - we all know that whenever NaMo has determined that there are some folks within the party who are out to be a hindrance, he has in the past been quite ruthless in sidelining them...

Coming to the first two of my redlines, while it is technically true that there would be different 'Committees' within the Sangh to determine idea of India / manifesto as well as electoral campaign - Modi is likely to have a good idea on what it takes to push his proposals through based on how many supporters he has on these committees. The idea is NOT to stifle healthy debate and ideation - certainly more of that is required. Rather, the idea of knowing where one needs to utilize one's political powers is to stop the influence of unhealthy and counterproductive proposals.

Munnaji for example, had outlined earlier on this thread how Modi has a pretty strong grip on candidate selection based on his nominees among the prabharis: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1468958

Sanku wrote:Not necessarily, BJP is a collective democratic party, let people say different things and pull in different directions, with in limits. There is no facist my way or high way congress culture here.

You are redefining 'fascist' in the same ways that the Congressis do. Once a leader has been chosen in the 'primaries' for an election (and given the cadre pressure, that is exactly how the Modi appointment played out) - the entire organization needs to be publicly backing that person till the elections are over. That is how elections are fought by any competent political organization the world over.

Ashok Sarraff · Post by **Ashok Sarraff** » 18 Jun 2013 15:17

Amazing that if Modi visits Ayodhya, it is 'return to Hindutva' and 'communal' but if seculars visit Vatican or go for haj, that is, well, secular. Indian minds are truly twisted.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Jun 2013 15:19

Arjun wrote: You are redefining 'fascist' in the same ways that the Congressis do. Once a leader has been chosen in the 'primaries' for an election (and given the cadre pressure, that is exactly how the Modi appointment played out) - the entire organization needs to be publicly backing that person till the elections are over. That is how elections are fought by any competent political organization the world over.

No Arjun ji, I am calling the congress behavior facist, I dont see how that aligns with congress description of facism.

Having said that, India is India, all the world over is fine, but India will run according to its own complications and rules, and no whatever happened in Goa is NOT primaries, that is a different phenomena, yet to be named, you will do Indian collective intelligence great favor if you gave it a new, Indian name, based on the analysis from the ground up, the Indian ground that is.

I DO NOT see what is happening here as having any parallels with anywhere in the world. We are very different and unique and those are not models made for India.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Jun 2013 15:20

Hypocrisy at its best!

Digging at the motivations of the NiKu WRT, the resent breakup. I had always questioned why NiKu was behaving the way he was. Without receiving any convincing answer.

The author has raised some important points WRT, the game plan for Nitish. All in all an interesting read.

habal · Post by **habal** » 18 Jun 2013 15:24

Aren't both Nitish Kumar & Modi classified as OBC's. Doesn't Nitish's stand explain itself ? His votebank is under direct threat with Modi leading NDA.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 18 Jun 2013 15:25

VikasRaina wrote:So Bihar in the end will be like UP where Mayawati and Mulayam oppose each other tooth and nail but support congress at the center. In return Congress keeps CBI on the leash against the two. Isn't this the future we are looking at ?

Mir Qasim-Mir Jaffer model for each state. But Bihar had shown some difference with respect to UP. As long as forward castes does not move away from BJP, it may not turn out to be one. But that is not easy to get a coalition of Forward castes and OBCs. Someday there will be change in the caste coalition of BJP and can become nanga. Hopefully Modi works it out based on lessons learnt in UP.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 18 Jun 2013 15:32

Ashok Sarraff wrote:Amazing that if Modi visits Ayodhya, it is 'return to Hindutva' and 'communal' but if seculars visit Vatican or go for haj, that is, well, secular. Indian minds are truly twisted.

Modi must not visit Ayodhya as that is communal. But Modi must wear a topi to be secular.

This is the level of discussion these days in India's secularism.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 18 Jun 2013 15:47

Muppalla wrote: Mir Qasim-Mir Jaffer model for each state. But Bihar had shown some difference with respect to UP. As long as forward castes does not move away from BJP, it may not turn out to be one. But that is not easy to get a coalition of Forward castes and OBCs. Someday there will be change in the caste coalition of BJP and can become nanga. Hopefully Modi works it out based on lessons learnt in UP.

What is the reason for antagonism between FCs and OBCs? Is it due to some restrictions imposed by FCs on OBCs or vice versa? Please ignore this if it sounds too naive.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Jun 2013 15:58

prahaar wrote: What is the reason for antagonism between FCs and OBCs? Is it due to some restrictions imposed by FCs on OBCs or vice versa? Please ignore this if it sounds too naive.

I dont see any antagonism between FC and OBCs historically, the lastest fiction is because of Mandal era politics, i.e. divide and rule using reservations.

FCs typically resent reservations as they see it (rightly) as removal of their chances for mertiocratic growth. OTOH most OBCs were not doing bad anyway, but who is going to argue against a free gift.

The fact that OBCs and FCs could easily work together was seen in BJP-JDU, Bhumihar-Kurmi alliance, the real reason for NDA's success in Bihar, and which Nitish has just destroyed.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 18 Jun 2013 15:58

prahaar wrote:
Muppalla wrote: Mir Qasim-Mir Jaffer model for each state. But Bihar had shown some difference with respect to UP. As long as forward castes does not move away from BJP, it may not turn out to be one. But that is not easy to get a coalition of Forward castes and OBCs. Someday there will be change in the caste coalition of BJP and can become nanga. Hopefully Modi works it out based on lessons learnt in UP.
What is the reason for antagonism between FCs and OBCs? Is it due to some restrictions imposed by FCs on OBCs or vice versa? Please ignore this if it sounds too naive.

Nothing is naïve. It is the fact of life in most parts of India. Caste coalitions cannot be avoided in vast lands of India. You can easily make a coalition of one that wants power and the other that wants entitlements. It is difficult to bring two competing ones into same basket. That is why the clamor for Muslims' vote bank. This OBC is a misnomer and they are as equal to middle class FCs in terms of education, pride etc. Economic competition is also the reason.

To beat this out there is need for a game change which can only come if you have power and make the electoral reforms and demolish this first-pass wins the seat model. If India has a run-off between top two candidates then all these coalitions will get a slow death and inclusivity increases. (useless topic for now)

Adrija · Post by **Adrija** » 18 Jun 2013 16:10

When one asks people to step back and take a dispassionate look around, they disappear. But BJP and NaMo by extension must be stainless by comparison.

^^ Yup, I don't seriously get it either............genuine question to Theo ji, Vina and others- the nation currently has two alternates- one which for argument's sake let us say is communal (I don't agree, but let's assume so for a minute).

But, but...the other (UPA) is at least equally communal, perhaps actually even more so as they keep the minorities in a ghetto complex, feeding their insecurities and treating them as a vote back; AND in addition, they are corrupt (and how!), have completely mismanaged the economy and brought down the growth rate by ~ 50% due to fiscal irresponsibility and misgovernance. Contrast that with not just the track record of the NDA government (which was directly responsible for the investment in physical and social infrastructure which is serving India well today- ports, highways, power, education etc) but since then also in the states- the overwhelming evidence is towards inclusive and well managed growth (GJ AND also MP, Chattisgarh, Uttarakhand, Rajasthan).........and yet people froth at the mouth while talking of the BJP as a viable party of governance?

Seriously, what gives?

member_20036 · Post by **member_20036** » 18 Jun 2013 18:00

Modi’s Gujarat model gets Rs 59000 cr from Planning Commission

Planning Commission on Tuesday granted a plan size of Rs 59000 crore for Gujarat as compared to proposed Rs 58,500 crore sought.

The Planning Commission discussed the State’s plan with Chief Minister Narendra Modi.

“Performance has been good in Gujarat but needs to pay special attention on social sector,” said Planning Commission Deputy Chairman Montek Singh Ahluwalia after meeting Modi.

After meeting Ahluwalia Modi told reporters, “Planning Commission feels Gujarat is a capable State, therefore, it has approved Rs 59,000 crore plan for Gujarat as compared to proposed Rs 58,500 crore sought.”

http://www.niticentral.com/2013/06/18/p ... 91689.html

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 18 Jun 2013 18:15

http://www.niticentral.com/2013/06/18/i ... 91667.html

Sandhya Jain once again on how Advani is hurting BJP - by supporting Nitish.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Jun 2013 18:19

SwamyG wrote:http://www.niticentral.com/2013/06/18/i ... 91667.html

Sandhya Jain once again on how Advani is hurting BJP - by supporting Nitish.

But Nitish is saying that Advani is NOT helping him.

Clearly Nitish asked for something which Advani did not give so they are asking for it in media.

Sandhya Jain should be able to get that.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 18 Jun 2013 18:23

Sanku ji just one question, did Namo elevation hurt your PM chances (I mean in the world in which we live, where we are the master of everything, we reflect our likes and dislikes, our fear and strength and yes in that world, it goes around because we want it..., we all have that world...did that happen?)
rgds,
fanne
Ps - Sorry for very deep Psychological question

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Jun 2013 18:25

fanne wrote:Sanku ji just one question, did Namo elevation hurt your PM chances (I mean in the world in which we live, where we are the master of everything, we reflect our likes and dislikes, our fear and strength and yes in that world, it goes around because we want it..., we all have that world...did that happen?)
rgds,
fanne
Ps - Sorry for very deep Psychological question

I am afraid I did not understand the question, it was either too deep or too psychological.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 18 Jun 2013 18:27

Sanku: I construe the very fact of you replying to my posts on this topic as trolling.

so how about we don't respond to each other on this topic.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 18 Jun 2013 18:30

There is no OBC, FC divide per se in any state. It is the base you create. Mayawathi could create Bramin+SC vote bank in UP and won elections. But the problem is the transferability of the votes and creating and retaining a base votes which will come to you at any cost. INC in many state has some sections of people who will vote to it no matter what. Unless it was broken decisively - like in UP and in Gujarath - it is very difficult to weaken INC. It has found SP+BSP to support it with CBI blackmail but could not make a serious comeback in UP because its base vote has gone to BJP, SP andBSP. BJP went down in UP after losing its FC+OBC base vote.

Modi requires to create a vote % of at least 28/30 % in UP to get the kind of seat BJP wants. Let us see what happens.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Jun 2013 18:32

SwamyG wrote:Sanku: I construe the very fact of you replying to my posts on this topic as trolling. so how about we don't respond to each other on this topic.

You can construe whatever from whatever SwamyG, given your posts on this thread, this will be par for the course.

I will however point to G A P I N G holes in what seems to be passing for political analysis in the media and on the thread. Thank you very much.

shyamoo · Post by **shyamoo** » 18 Jun 2013 19:19

Narayana Rao wrote:There is no OBC, FC divide per se in any state. It is the base you create. Mayawathi could create Bramin+SC vote bank in UP and won elections. But the problem is the transferability of the votes and creating and retaining a base votes which will come to you at any cost. INC in many state has some sections of people who will vote to it no matter what. Unless it was broken decisively - like in UP and in Gujarath - it is very difficult to weaken INC. It has found SP+BSP to support it with CBI blackmail but could not make a serious comeback in UP because its base vote has gone to BJP, SP andBSP. BJP went down in UP after losing its FC+OBC base vote.

Modi requires to create a vote % of at least 28/30 % in UP to get the kind of seat BJP wants. Let us see what happens.

Narayana saar,

There may be no OBC / FC divide, but people vote along caste lines. For e.g. A close buddy of mine is a Reddy and he is from Kurnool. His is a congress supporter. He supports Vijay Bhaskar Reddy faction and used to be anti YSR. But he would still vote for Congress. He complained to me once that his faction was suppressed/oppressed by YSR faction. I went

. I asked him if he seriously was saying that to me ( me belonging to OBC whose ancestors were suppressed under zamindari system and he belonging to Reddy community ). Oh! the irony. It took him a few seconds to realize what I had said and he agreed that he shouldn't complain. But when I asked why vote for congress and particularly Reddys, he answer was that as long as someone is going to make money and let it be someone from his caste/community. You never know when you would need them for some political influence. So this ends up being a self sustaining cycle. Vote for someone from your community and they will in turn help you out.

So for a non Reddy to break into the Reddy community vote is going to be rather difficult or for any other caste/community for that matter. Unless the perception that someone from your own caste will bestow political favors on you is completely removed, caste politics will always prevail. On this front, NaMo has been successful to a large extent.

Heck, I know some people in the Northern Virginia region who belong to the kamma community that exclusively visit one particular restaurant solely because of the fact that the owner is a kamma!!! Other popular restaurants were owned by Reddys. If one cannot escape caste based decisions after coming to the US, what are the chances in rural India.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 18 Jun 2013 19:48

Gus wrote:you are making me uncomfortable with your pissing in the wind.

Show anything to support this statement from top leaders of BJP.

Gus,

I think NRI's will get the context of this.
This what happened to republicans in the USA.
All of them are subjected to regular 'purity' tests.
IMHO this what the BJP is doing as well except not quite so organized.
--------------------------

Swamy,

You are giving me too much credit boss.
But yes confidence of the elders is critical to propagate a point of view.
Usually among most indian communities a consensus on who to vote for crystallizes before elections.
These are folks who vote at every election, and spend money to make sure they vote.
So far this consensus has not shifted in the half dozen communities I'm familiar with.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 18 Jun 2013 20:02

Theo_Fidel wrote:Gus,

I think NRI's will get the context of this.
This what happened to republicans in the USA.
All of them are subjected to regular 'purity' tests.
IMHO this what the BJP is doing as well except not quite so organized.

in other words, you do not have anything to back up your claims.

there is no connection to gop and bjp. it can be argued that inc is similar to gop in the scaremongering and demonisation of opponents using trigger words and dog-whistles.

you are all over the place in this thread.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2013 20:19

THis sounds harsh but need to shut the thread down unless three posters temper their urge to go after each other.
In no particular order: Sanku, Theo, SwamyG.

Of the 235 pages quite a few are just these three in the lead.

So decide for yourself, truce or shut down?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Jun 2013 20:50

Sanku wrote: that Modi has himself spared no occasion to mention what he thinks of Advani (very highly) and spends as much time as possible working with him? As of right now Modi is in a meeting with Advani. His key lieutenant Amit Shah, began as Advani's campaign organizer in Gandhinagar btw. I dont get how people berate MSM and in the same breath fall hook line and sinker for what MSM says.

Fortunately NaMo is far more an astute politician and a able BJP worker compared to the yahoo image many of his fans want him to be, and hence the real news (which is not from nether sources while visiting Pakistan)
......
So while Modi's fans bad mouth MM Joshi here, NaMo himself makes an effort to work with MM Joshi and establish a good working relationship for the next steps. I wish NaMo's fan actually also learnt from NaMo instead of merely cheering for him.

Sanku San I think NaMo is not affected by what some might be saying about Sri Advaniji. Contribution of Sri Advani ji can not be belittled in making BJP what it is today. That he failed in his personal ambition is largely due to his unsung sacrifice he made for the first even proper Non Congi Govt at the Centre with Sri Atal ji as PM. It was just like SuMo making way for NiKu in Bihar. NaMo is Chelaa of Sri Advani ji and he has bettered him. Guru Gur Chelaa Chini. What better achievement could be there for a teacher. Perhaps , this way out come was better in Bihar that NaMo got rid of NiKu and who knows Bihar might see first BJP Govt.

To understand relation between Sri Advani ji and NaMo would take a lifetime of watching both together.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 18 Jun 2013 21:10

Regarding FC+OBC, it is very difficult to sustain. It is not that never tried. It is easy to sustain KHAM because K (one of the forward castes) just needs power and money earning avenues and HAM needs government entitlements. To sustain one forward caste with few OBCs it is very difficult because this OBCs is not something like dalits or muslims. They are also different like in Brahmins Vs Banias Vs Kshatriyas. On top of that you just cannot give doles like reservations and entitelements to keep them loyal to a party. They are as good as FCs in all aspects and they also want share in power or they themselves are power.

That is why in this game of caste coalitions congress always has an advantage. They have capabilities to restructure. Take the case of KA and AP, they are now restructuring the K part from REddys to Kapus. They are moving away from Lingayats and also Vokaliggas. Because the other HAM section is only dependent on entitlements and goodies.

See how difficult it was for Laloo. A lot of us may not like him but he still has a lot of vote base. He started off with BCs+Muslims. Nitish took out Kurmis from that section. BJP took out some OBCs from same group. Finally Laloo is left with Yadavs+Muslims.

The game has to be changed completely. No two castes together can win an election. If such a scenario is created then people will start focussing on needs, culture and nation. Runoff election is badly needed in India. They system has become rotten to the level where you spend a lot of money to divide the electorate so that two or three caste combinations with about 20% can win.

disha · Post by **disha** » 18 Jun 2013 21:44

Sanku wrote:... while Modi's fans bad mouth MM Joshi here, NaMo himself makes an effort to work with MM Joshi and establish a good working relationship for the next steps. I wish NaMo's fan actually also learnt from NaMo instead of merely cheering for him.

Lot of Modi's fanbase are "born again BJP fans" who are impatient with the current Gobermound. Deep down they want the c-system destroyed, but they do not even know that (that there is a c-system and they want it destroyed)., they wish well but are fickle to a point.

One point Modi has is the way he can deliver complex messages in simple lines. This is important to connect. I have seen LKA numerous times, he is good - but Modi is better. In one way, Modi is being contrasted with LKA (unfair to both, IMO)., and people put in on their own biases and add in impatience, frustration, lost opportunities etc and they see everybody as an obstacle and an enemy to be bull dozed.

disha · Post by **disha** » 18 Jun 2013 21:49

Theo_Fidel wrote:... This what happened to republicans in the USA.
All of them are subjected to regular 'purity' tests.
IMHO this what the BJP is doing as well except not quite so organized.

Since xtians are fundamentalist, so will be BJP. What an utter crap - maybe you really need to travel and know India and Bharat. (edited to take out a personal attack. Apologies.)

I did warn two pages back that you will trot that argument.

Bharat is far more diverse and far more smarter than you give them credit for. You really need to go to Utah and live with mormons for a while (in order to get another perspective).

So far this consensus has not shifted in the half dozen communities I'm familiar with.

Why? They are not Indians? Or Bharatiyas? Or think that all "yindoos are evilll onleee ....."? Why? Other than subjective emotional opinions, or receiving entitlements from the current system., what is their criteria?

Added: Note - I can understand emotional opinions. Some people do get taken in by looks or fantasies and that is okay. Also if one is receiving entitlement and keep it sacrosanct, that is okay to! Nothing wrong in having a profit motive. But appearing objective and rational while being subjective and irrational is suspect (what is the true motive here?)

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Jun 2013 21:50

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Gus wrote:you are making me uncomfortable with your pissing in the wind.

Show anything to support this statement from top leaders of BJP.
Gus,

I think NRI's will get the context of this.
This what happened to republicans in the USA.
All of them are subjected to regular 'purity' tests.
IMHO this what the BJP is doing as well except not quite so organized.

You made a serious accusation that the BJP was somehow trying to determine who is "pure" or otherwise. You have been unable to provide links to any statements by senior BJP leaders supporting this claim. So I guess we can put this down to yet another strawman argument put forward by you to oppose Modi and the BJP just for the sake of opposing them since nobody seems to have been able to come up with a real argument against them in the last ~200 pages.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 18 Jun 2013 21:51

Anybody know this journos G Sampath

http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/fsN9guZ ... votee.html

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Jun 2013 21:59

ramana wrote:THis sounds harsh but need to shut the thread down unless three posters temper their urge to go after each other.
In no particular order: Sanku, Theo, SwamyG.

Of the 235 pages quite a few are just these three in the lead.

So decide for yourself, truce or shut down?

I will cease and desist.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 18 Jun 2013 22:29

The latest headline from Modi says.

BJP doesn't need allies which are against it, Modi.

Presumably WRT the JDU. After 15+ years!
This is the sort of 'with us or against us' purity test silliness the Republicans prance under.

Anyway, my last...

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 18 Jun 2013 22:38

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2013 22:41

Thanks to both of you Sanku and Theo.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 18 Jun 2013 22:44

Faking News
Rahul Gandhi will turn 43 in little over an hour. But since the Indian economy is back in 1990's, he'll be considered to be in his 20's.
Youth Icon explained.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 18 Jun 2013 22:44

In Patna

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 18 Jun 2013 22:58

In Bihar the bandh was quite successfull in the first few hours. Only two parties are going to benefit from this split, Laloo and BJP. Nitish will have a nasty surprise.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 18 Jun 2013 23:09

this may sound stupid but what is KHAM?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2013 23:18

KHAM=Kshatriya, Harijan, A(?), Muslim
an acronym which describes the INC poll magic.

What Muppalla is pointing out is the K is a variable in each state and the rest of the three are dependent on govt entitlements. And all K needs is the license to loot.